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In search of who likes Easy ?

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
All mmorpg's are easy, with VERY few exceptions.... Why ? 

I would like to get down to barebones of who likes easy without referring to someone else or "they".

I understand the popular games are Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2, Final Fantasy 14 and Black Desert Online. To each their own and great for you as a player.  

BUT is easy game play one of it's popular features for YOU ? 
I understand easy games have harder content too, but do you like the easy parts ? 

Just trying to understand "Easy" !  



This reminds me of a Family Guy episode where Peter and the gang were in search of where Jokes originate from :)  
ceratop001
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Comments

  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    I guess 'easy' at least in MMORPG terms, is mostly associated with the time it takes to achieve things.
    One popular debate about the definition of 'easy' is the Vanilla vs Live version of WOW.
    Some says Vanilla was easier some others think Live is easier.

    The truth is they are both right and wrong.
    Vanilla had easier Boss mechanics, but it required more group coordination and teamplay to get there, as thrash mobs were generally more challenging than the Boss itself.
    WOW Live has more difficult Boss mechanics but everything else is kinda one shottable.

    Because of the harder thrash mobs everything in Vanilla took longer, even leveling required some sort of grouping if you wanted to speed things up.
    In Live there is not such problem, every mob or even group of mobs can easily be killed by a single player.
    The hard part of WoW Live is restricted to a small elite of hardcore riders, 90% of Live population will never touch the 'hard' part (unlike in Vanilla).

    So I guess that 'easy' in MMORPGs means 'less time consuming'.
    So to answer your question, why people like 'easy' games?
    The simple answer is, because they have less time to play.
    F2PlagueAlBQuirky
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    TEKK3N said:
    I guess 'easy' at least in MMORPG terms, is mostly associated with the time it takes to achieve things.
    One popular debate about the definition of 'easy' is the Vanilla vs Live version of WOW.
    Some says Vanilla was easier some others think Live is easier.

    The truth is they are both right and wrong.
    Vanilla had easier Boss mechanics, but it required more group coordination and teamplay to get there, as thrash mobs were generally more challenging than the Boss itself.
    WOW Live has more difficult Boss mechanics but everything else is kinda one shottable.

    Because of the harder thrash mobs everything in Vanilla took longer, even leveling required some sort of grouping if you wanted to speed things up.
    In Live there is not such problem, every mob or even group of mobs can easily be killed by a single player.
    The hard part of WoW Live is restricted to a small elite of hardcore riders, 90% of Live population will never touch the 'hard' part (unlike in Vanilla).

    So I guess that 'easy' in MMORPGs means 'less time consuming'.
    So to answer your question, why people like 'easy' games?
    The simple answer is, because they have less time to play.
    Some good points, 
    With these facts, and at they end you "they"... Can I ask, how do YOU feel about easy and the reasons you stated ? 

    Do you like less time consuming and like less time to play versus a challenge ?
     
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited September 2018
    I defy anyone who claims ALL MMOs easy is go on UO create any class outside of Tamer(skill-up) Then go fight some Paragon Lich Lords, Ogre Mages, Ancient Wyrm etc..  Then come back an tell me how easy it is ..

     You must be skilled at your build to do this be highly aware of surroundings and react very qwikly do a endless list of intangibles of WTF could go wrong ... Or die and watch your corpse get looted by an Ogre Mage as you run as ghost in search of a healer .. To attempt a corpse recovery
    Post edited by Scorchien on
    Tokken[Deleted User]
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited September 2018
    DMKano said:
    Scorchien said:
    I defy anyone who claims ALL MMOs easy is go on UO create any class outside of Tamer and go fight some Paragon Lich Lords, Ogre Mages, Ancient Wyrm etc..  Then come back an tell me how easy it is ..

     You must be skilled at your build to do this be highly aware of surroundings and react very qwikly do a endless list of intangibles of WTF could go wrong ... Or die and watch your corpse get looted by an Ogre Mage as you run as ghost in search of a healer .. To attempt a corpse recovery

    Same can be said of many games where you attempt to do content when you are undergeared or lacking levels/character abilities and skills.

    IMO this is artificial difficulty that players impose on themselves - like trying to drive a car with a blindfold - yes it's difficult but it's self imposed.

    If the game content is done as intended - for example group content is done by groups who have the required levels and gear the difficulty goes WAY down.

    Trying to solo raid content at level 1 - for a level 50 raid - impossible - but you do it in a well geared raid group - suddenly 100% doable.



    No .. Skil up and gear first ...7x GM in good gear will find many heart pumping challenges in UO
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    TEKK3N said:

    Some good points, 
    With these facts, and at they end you "they"... Can I ask, how do YOU feel about easy and the reasons you stated ? 

    Do you like less time consuming and like less time to play versus a challenge ?
     
    My personal opinion is that if you don't have enough time to play a MMORPG, don't play it.
    That's what I do.
    There are periods of time I have more time and play MMORPGs, and other periods that I prefer Single players, because I have less time.

    As someone pointed out, there are not truly difficult MMORPGs to play, just MMORPGs more time consuming, due to the fact they require group play.
    And that's what MMORPGs should be about, it should be about challenging group content (by challenging I mean that requires group cooperation and coordination).

    If I want real personal challenge, I play Single players in Nightmare mode or Dark Souls.

    But to me 'easy' MMORPGs are a waste of developers time.
    Sure they can make loads of money but I believe you could do more money from Single Player.
    Skyrim with some sort of microtransactions (Cosmetics, DLCs and MODs download) would make more money than ESO in my opinion.

    For me MMORPGs are all the games made before Vanilla WoW, I consider Vanilla WoW the last true MMORPG.
    Today games are just glorified Single Player games with Massive Multiplayer in it, I can play all of them in autopilot while watching Netflix.
    delete5230Xanzodeniter
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    DMKano said:
    As long as we are not equating "time investment" or "RNG" into difficulty - there are no difficult MMORPGs - because again - it's made to appeal to masses - so the difficulty ceiling must be set to very low.

    Posters often talk about gen 1 MMORPGs as being "difficult" - they weren't - they were just incredible time wasters because they were subscription based - and publishers main goal was to keep players playing (and paying) for as many months as possible. 

    To earn $180 from a player - it takes a year of $15 per month subscription - so if you consider the payment model - the gameplay and progression in EQ1 vanilla for example - super slow.

    With the cash shop model - players can drop $180 in 1 day - an equivalent of an entire year of subscription, and no need to have intentionally slow features like waiting 30min of real time for a boat etc...

    Just don't fall for "huge amount of time required" = difficult
    Mythic+ raids and M+12 dungeons were hard in Legion. No matter how much time many guilds and people invested they could not clear all contents. RNG also irrelevant. 

    Back in vanilla less than 5% could clear Naxx. Sunwell in TBC shattered even world's top guilds.

    Reaching HWL/GM was a nightmare in WoW vanilla. Most people failed at it, even nolifers who just played the game. 

    WoW high-end content was never easy. It has gotten easier compared to vanilla. It offers different levels of difficulty post WotLK but high end content is still hard, even for hardcore players.

    Now I haven't played BfA but I doubt if things have drastically changed.
    [Deleted User]
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    TEKK3N said:
    My personal opinion is that if you don't have enough time to play a MMORPG, don't play it.
    That's what I do.
    BINGO!

    And as for @DMKano's comment about "time sinks", there is some validity like timer spawns for bosses, but mostly, those sinks were supposed to be part of "the living world." If one 's first assumption is that the developers are trying to get you playing and paying longer, it's not the right game for you. If you see the "downtime" (aka: waiting for ships) as "This is what it's like in real life.", then you may have found a home and paying each month is a no brainer.

    @Scorchien's example of "hard", EVERY MMO has some hard content ion it. EVERY one of them. What most players do is look at the whole game and decide, easy or hard? I've heard UO is a great game. Does it have "easy parts", too? Don't get so defensive.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    Easy vs casual content.  It's for entertainment purposes for me and I have nothing to prove as my goal is to have a good time and feel like I've accomplished something no matter if it took ten mins or ten hours to complete.

    Time-sinks vs hard content.  I'm really aware of games that make you travel for ten mins. to get to content or have small inventory space to force players to make multiple trips to clean out their inventory in order to slow gameplay.  Or games that give you a ton of drops that are highly situational forcing players to spend a large amount of time sorting inventory and deciding what inventory is needed for what content they plan on doing.


    AlBQuirkyGobstopper3D

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,429
    MMORPGs have to be hard enough to justify the grind. No one should be able to beat the game without a long grind of some sort, and the longer the better.

    Games that are hard with no grind are called action games.
  • XanzoXanzo Member UncommonPosts: 129
    TEKK3N said:
    TEKK3N said:

    Some good points, 
    With these facts, and at they end you "they"... Can I ask, how do YOU feel about easy and the reasons you stated ? 

    Do you like less time consuming and like less time to play versus a challenge ?
     
    My personal opinion is that if you don't have enough time to play a MMORPG, don't play it.
    That's what I do.
    There are periods of time I have more time and play MMORPGs, and other periods that I prefer Single players, because I have less time.

    As someone pointed out, there are not truly difficult MMORPGs to play, just MMORPGs more time consuming, due to the fact they require group play.
    And that's what MMORPGs should be about, it should be about challenging group content (by challenging I mean that requires group cooperation and coordination).

    If I want real personal challenge, I play Single players in Nightmare mode or Dark Souls.

    But to me 'easy' MMORPGs are a waste of developers time.
    Sure they can make loads of money but I believe you could do more money from Single Player.
    Skyrim with some sort of microtransactions (Cosmetics, DLCs and MODs download) would make more money than ESO in my opinion.

    For me MMORPGs are all the games made before Vanilla WoW, I consider Vanilla WoW the last true MMORPG.
    Today games are just glorified Single Player games with Massive Multiplayer in it, I can play all of them in autopilot while watching Netflix.
    I'm confused. You have played Skyrim, right? It has many official dlcs and mods and that HAS made a ton of money for them. If you're talking about just restricting the developer to making mods/dlcs for the game, that would never work, the community is just too dang giant and they would revolt. You also can't have an open source with a cash shop otherwise the community can just make the items/mods that the developers are making.

    Different note: You might want to pick a different genre if all the new mmorpgs you play today are on autopilot for you. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited September 2018
    ikcin said:
    TEKK3N said:
    I guess 'easy' at least in MMORPG terms, is mostly associated with the time it takes to achieve things.
    WTF - easy is easy. Compare the solo content of any so called MMORPG with DS or Gothic, and it is incredibly easy.

    The PvE multiplayer content is often so easy, that it could be soloed. And the PvP is hard only because you play vs other players, not because the rules and the mechanisms implemented into the game.

    Nobody likes easy. But all like to win. And many MMORPG players like the grind. The grind cannot be hard and challenging. And the grind, but not the fun is main point of the most so called MMORPGs. Safe and sound, boring, repetitive grind - that is what addicted players want. It makes them feel calm, and kind of happy.

    In addition, I do not think there is a MMORPG with precise time related mechanisms for fight like DS. All bosses are just matter of gear and level.




    If you ever did high end raiding in any MMORPG you would understand how wrong you are.

    Even in Vanilla WOW the raids were far more than simple tank and spank.

    In fact, one reason I won't raid is they really have become far too much of a "dance with the stars" or jump around and keep out of the glowy spots, guess I am lazier now days.

    I loath action combat as well, too freaking "busy" for me, especially if there is a bunch of dodging and rolling.

    So yeah, put me in the camp who certainly prefers easier, I don't even play single player games in much but normal mode, perhaps a notch higher the 2nd time thru, but never on hardcore mode.

    I play for one main reason, to make progress towards my personal goals for the session. (as efficiently as possible of course)

    I'm not there for the challenge, to hang with friends (don't have any), to do good deeds for others as I had that mostly beaten out of me years ago or to have "fun." (whatever the hell that means in terms of games)

    When I log off did I accomplish any progression (however its measured) and is so how much.

    If not, I examine the reasons why and adjust my next session to avoid whatever it was. (bad groups, ganking, poor choice of leveling spot or the most common yet hardest to combat, dreaded and feared "wife aggro.")

    ;)


    ConstantineMerusAlBQuirkyGobstopper3D

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    no to easy or too difficult,i simply want the game design to allow me to play without jumping through a bunch of hoops.
    The way i would like to see these games operate the gear ideas is to have players SOLO THEIR weapons/elite weapons of choice.
    One try per  day 24 hours,if you fail need to wait another day.This has players PLAY THE GAME<move onto other ideas/content/systems,if the game doesn't do anything else,guess what,the game is crap.
    Way too much focus is on the dungeon loot runs,this does not make a GAME nor does it have anything to do with role playing,it is simply loot grinding w/o any other form of gameplay.You cannot make ANYTHING too easy or you run out of content.Perhaps the idea of getting tired,often scoffed at "i paid my money,let me play is actually the proper way to design and play a role playing game.You should get tired,you should be hungry,thirsty,you should need to build a home,trade,sell etc etc,it is called living a life within a game world.

    NM all this CHEAP game building,nm player stalls,how about store fronts,how about players building and designing weapons and armor,there are a LOT of ideas and things to do if only developers put some work into their games.
    Point being,nm the gear grinds,nm cheap game designs,removing easy and turning it into a just another form of loot grind be it Bosses or Raids/dungeons is NOT quality mmorpog design.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • BananableBananable Member UncommonPosts: 194
    "In search who likes easy?"
    Me, me, me! I like easy...you mean money, right?



    "All mmorpg's are easy"
    I see people say that alot. So whats the problem? Take off your gear thats not going to be easy then.....or you can quit. Thats also not easy to do, right?
    Help others - not easy. Do not be rude  to some one that asking stupid questions or do stupid things - not easy. Try to have fun in the game thats not fun at all - thats super hard.

    I dont get it, ive seen alot of elitists or hardcore players - they are weird. They like to call everyone noobs or casuals and tell them to leave their (yes, their) game. I really want to see one day all casuals actually leave...oh wait, then the game will dies.

    First of all, all these game not easy for me. It takes so much effort for me to understand how do play this unbalanced BS, that for some reason called a "game". Games are suppose to be fun. 
    Recently i joined a guild, and i spoke with GL, he mention that he spends about 14 hrs/day on his guild maintenance. And huge amount of gold. WTF? Is that easy? Is that fun? Thats freaking slavery.

    I use to play 12+ hrs per day, that was easy. Now im exhausted after just one veteran dungeon run. (ESO).

    I dunno why you call them easy in the fist place or why anyone in their right mind wants games to be challenging. To show off? "Look at me im super awesome, im the best." But if other players arent casuals or noobs, they dont care. They might be even better than you.

    In the end players are just slaves, sitting in front of thier PC(console) alone in the room, wasting their precious time on some stupid challenges that was made by the devs that would never play their own game (or any other), but they make money, they have prestigious job and thats freaking REAL challenge and REAL achievement of their life.


    Game just have to be fun. Atleast they was when i was kid.


    I just did random daily dingeon (eso) with my guildmates (they are low lvl newbies and they admit it). Im newbie too, atleast thats what i thought....
    Healer tried to tank and aggro everything....that wasnt fun.



    P.S. Seriously kids these days.... sitting in warm house with light, water, food and all kinds of gadgets but asking: "I need challenge, yarr!" 
    "Look at me, I defeated super mega hardcore boss (in this game for kids) - im cool."



  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903
    It should be easy to have fun.

    Though if you're seeking "perfection" for your character it shouldn't be easy at all.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Easy is relative. Every game start out "harder" before you're familiar with it and gets "easier" the more you play it.

    In MMOs sure, gearing and leveling make a big difference but even beyond that the familiarity with the game makes it easier.

    I find overland questing in ESO extremely easy. And yet I constantly see players die in fights where I can 1 or 2 shot the enemy or pack. I think a lot of people tend to forget about that learning curve when they call for more difficulty.

    In single player games it's much simpler of course to provide a range of difficulties so you can tailor it just how you like it. Multiplayer games have to do it by offering different types of content.

    I just go with whatever difficulty as the mood strikes me. For me it's mostly about how much attention and effort I feel like putting into the game in the moment. I have nothing to prove and just want to have fun with it.
    AlBQuirky
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  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,594
    I like easy if it's not to hard.
    anemoKylerandelete5230AlBQuirky
     
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    edited September 2018
    I think MMORPG genre is hard .
    When you want to pay , you must get though many gates before able to pay
    Easy to get crazy because how hardcore the developers mess with the game , to the point make you rage quit at some point "screw that , i quit"
    Very hard feeling when your hard earning progressed get delete cause sever closed down
    Extremely hard when your internet connection have problem and things delay like 1s-2s , specially location locked and that's your wanted to play game .

    Basically MMORPG is very hardcore genre that only hardcore players willing to play . Other casual player prefer singleplayer games where you can give the **** about developers and other things else and enjoy the game .

    Have to say that i was pretty "hardcore" in past , now gone casual and easy carebeer cause all the **** up this genre put on me .
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Every mmorpg ever made was easy. They always will be. Move buttons to advance a digital doll toward another digital doll and push more buttons until it stops moving. The order in which you push those buttons is the only curve of learning required. Once you learn those simple patterns you just repeat, with some variation, for however many levels or caps the game imposes on you. 
    Creating artificial time sinks to prolong the experience is not creating harder content. 
    The whole point of a video game is to allow you suspension of disbelief. To enjoy your time. 
    Depth is what some here are really talking about and depth is not the same thing as hard. Two separate things entirely. 

    When Naxxramas was launched in vanilla and Sunwell Plateau in TBC by no means they were easy contents. 

    Many world's top guilds got disbanded during these contents. They had ALL the possible gear up to those raids. They had all the time in the world. They tried for VERY long hours 5-6 days a week, for months and they failed to clear the contents. Many of them gave up, and MANY of them disbanded. 

    Even the guilds which had these contents on farm never claimed these were easy contents. They all agreed these were the hardest challenges they had faced in their gaming careers. 

    These raids, in EVERY sense of the word, were hard contents. 

    Of course there are more examples in WoW, but then Blizzard introduced the tiered difficulty of raiding so everyone could see all contents. And also nerfed the contents after a couple of months so everyone could clear. But the top tier specially upon release remained hard and wouldn't become doable merely by investing more time. 

    I can also talk about EVE. Yes EVE is an easy game if you live a pacifist life and don't mind blowing up once in a while. But if you wanted to climb the hierarchy, it is a brutal world and VERY hard game to play. 

    MMORPGs have various layers. There are easy layers and there are time-consuming layers, true. But a few got actually hard as fuck layers as well. 
    Kyleranmmolou
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    When WoW came onto the scene there was clearly a shift in how much easier it was than any of the previous MMOs.......WHat I saw was that players preferred being entertained instead of challenged...They may like an occasional challenge, but not constant challenge.
    Kyleran
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,223
    I liked the 'hard' content of old diablo 2 hardcore where eve being level 60 was amazing.
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
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  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,004
    You can make a fight last 5-10 seconds and be hard. But no one would play if they got 1 hit for not pressing the right key at the right time. Except the only 3 people the game was specifically catered for.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Every mmorpg ever made was easy. They always will be. Move buttons to advance a digital doll toward another digital doll and push more buttons until it stops moving. The order in which you push those buttons is the only curve of learning required. Once you learn those simple patterns you just repeat, with some variation, for however many levels or caps the game imposes on you. 
    Creating artificial time sinks to prolong the experience is not creating harder content. 
    The whole point of a video game is to allow you suspension of disbelief. To enjoy your time. 
    Depth is what some here are really talking about and depth is not the same thing as hard. Two separate things entirely. 

    When Naxxramas was launched in vanilla and Sunwell Plateau in TBC by no means they were easy contents. 

    Many world's top guilds got disbanded during these contents. They had ALL the possible gear up to those raids. They had all the time in the world. They tried for VERY long hours 5-6 days a week, for months and they failed to clear the contents. Many of them gave up, and MANY of them disbanded. 

    Even the guilds which had these contents on farm never claimed these were easy contents. They all agreed these were the hardest challenges they had faced in their gaming careers. 

    These raids, in EVERY sense of the word, were hard contents. 

    Of course there are more examples in WoW, but then Blizzard introduced the tiered difficulty of raiding so everyone could see all contents. And also nerfed the contents after a couple of months so everyone could clear. But the top tier specially upon release remained hard and wouldn't become doable merely by investing more time. 

    I can also talk about EVE. Yes EVE is an easy game if you live a pacifist life and don't mind blowing up once in a while. But if you wanted to climb the hierarchy, it is a brutal world and VERY hard game to play. 

    MMORPGs have various layers. There are easy layers and there are time-consuming layers, true. But a few got actually hard as fuck layers as well. 
    Still time sink imposed. Remember when Naxx launched? Getting 40 people properly geared was a massive pain in the...well you know. After learning the mechanics, rotations and getting your properly geared 8 tanks it was beaten. In under 3 months time. Again not 'hard' just time consuming to get the gear needed to be ready for it. Raiding is a chain. Follow the chain (and everyone has to follow it the same way) you come to the end and complete it. Grinding and grinding and grinding is not a way to make content hard. Just prolong the time needed to complete it and keep your playerbase subbed. Raiding is a checklist endeavor. 
    I have to disagree with you mate. Because top guilds had already last contents on farm for months, members had even their third alts fully geared, yet they couldn't clear Naxx or Sunwell (which was a 25-man raid). Because it is damned hard, not time consuming. And grinding couldn't make it easy.

    Top guilds never had any problem with the availability of people or people showing up on time. There were so many other elements involved in a running a successful raid and taking down a hard boss. I played this game for 6 years and was always among the world's top 10 guilds. Acted as leader, officer and such. When recruiting new players we rarely cared about gear if we had a couple of weeks before new contents to gear up the applicant. 

    And a fun fact: as a high-end raiding player, I had to spend less time in game than casual players overall, yet clear all contents way before everyone else. Because when there's difficulty involved, then skill matters as well. It's a mistake to think that top guilds were top guilds because they played more than everyone else. 

    Yes the whole game is about carrots on sticks. But there were various levels of difficulties involved. And high-end was a complete different beast. 

    I don't mean to offend you mate <3, but I don't think you were ever involved in the high-end raiding scene of the WoW. 


    PhryKyleranmmolou
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
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