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Bad first impressions

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  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember EpicPosts: 2,233
    DLC and expansions are two different things.
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 12,011
    Viper482 said:
    DLC and expansions are two different things.
    I'm glad that's so clear and the lines don't blur in the least.

    :trollface:
    QuizzicalsomeforumguyTorval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,185
    But just buying eso and pay for sub and think you have the whole game is like thinking you can play the batle of azeroth just buying wow vanilla and pay for sub..its the same thing.
    It's not the same thing on several grounds.  For starters, Blizzard makes it abundantly clear that if you only pay a subscription, you don't get Battle for Azeroth.  To deduce that ESO's notion of "full access to all DLC game packs" doesn't mean that you actually get access to everything from ESO's web site is sufficiently complicated that none of the other people who have replied to this thread have yet tracked down a full way to see that.  I've traced it down and it looks like the minimum number of pages that you need to parse carefully and cross-reference against each other is three.  A more honest company would make the number of pages you need to check to learn that one, not three.

    Second, no, the business models aren't the same.  You can play WoW completely for free, albeit with a level cap of 20 and some other restrictions.  You can't do that with ESO.  You can also play WoW with just a subscription and have access to nearly everything, whereas ESO requires you to buy a box before you get access to anything at all.  Meanwhile, once you buy that box, ESO gives you access to a lot of content forever even if your subscription lapses, while in WoW, you lose access to nearly everything.  ESO also puts far more into their item mall, while WoW seems to be relying mostly on a subscription for revenue.  I'd bet that most WoW players never buy anything other than a subscription and expansions.  The business models are not substantially similar to each other.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,185
    Viper482 said:
    DLC and expansions are two different things.
    Expansion?  What's an expansion?  I see "DLC game pack", "Chapter", and "Free update", but no "expansion".

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    That may sound pedantic, but you have to be really pedantic to figure out what you're getting for your money, as Zenimax tries to deceive you.  Which is really my point:  it's complicated enough that a large fraction of the people who are fans of the game, have played it for a long time, and trying to defend the company get it wrong, as you just did.  An honest company wouldn't try to trick you like that.
    ragebullet
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAMember RarePosts: 2,478
    Why is this thread still going? It is just someone trying to defend their misunderstanding. Let it go.

    image

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,185
    SlyLoK said:
    Why is this thread still going? It is just someone trying to defend their misunderstanding. Let it go.
    Because this forum moves so slowly that it was still the top non-stickied thread when someone decided to reply.
  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomeMember RarePosts: 3,973
    Viper482 said:
    DLC and expansions are two different things.
    I hope that you are being sarcastic, because that is just PR talk from Zenimax. They only made that distinction so they could prevent the DLC to be bought with crowns. There are a lot of subbed people sitting on a lot of crowns with nothing to buy with. This move made a sub have even less worth for ESO.

    Any DLC is an expansion to a game. Look up what the word expansion means. It is literally just an addition to a game. There is no reason to make a distinction between DLC and expansion, unless Zenimax has a financial reason.

    Imo it was showing the finger to subs for making that distinction and at the same time having no new content in crown store (longer then their promised half year) to buy with crowns.
    Viper482
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember LegendaryPosts: 7,783
    edited September 2018
    Chapter = expansion everyone has to pay for.
    DLC = content subscribers get for free.

    If you think about it, WoW does EXACTLY the same thing... for subscribers. They have expansions, and then during the course of the expansion, they add more content, quests and landmass for free.

    Nothing wrong here. If you pay $15/month, ESO plays just like WoW. It's a subscription game.
    Post edited by Jean-Luc_Picard on
    blueturtle13RexKushmanViper482
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • GutlardGutlard Indianapolis, INMember RarePosts: 445
    I buy mounts/pets at holiday sales from the WoW shop, if I'm being honest.  :s

    So they get my money that way as well. I can honestly say that I do that only when I'm subbed to and playing WoW, so if I'm not subbed to WoW I never see or buy anything from the Shop if that makes a difference.

    Gut Out!

    What, me worry?

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,185
    Chapter = expansion everyone has to pay for.
    DLC = content subscribers get for free.

    If you think about it, WoW doesn't EXACTLY the same thing... for subscribers. They have expansions, and then during the course of the expansion, they add more content, quests and landmass for free.

    Nothing wrong here. If you pay $15/month, ESO plays just like WoW. It's a subscription game.
    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember LegendaryPosts: 7,783
    Quizzical said:
    Chapter = expansion everyone has to pay for.
    DLC = content subscribers get for free.

    If you think about it, WoW doesn't EXACTLY the same thing... for subscribers. They have expansions, and then during the course of the expansion, they add more content, quests and landmass for free.

    Nothing wrong here. If you pay $15/month, ESO plays just like WoW. It's a subscription game.
    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.
    Wrong, I paid for it despite being a subscriber.
    Just like WoW, old expansions become free to subscribers with time.
    blueturtle13SlyLoK
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 4K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Panama City, FLMember EpicPosts: 2,497
    It's not outright obvious.....but it ain't hard to figure it out either.  If someone is incapable of that....it's a personal problem.
    Viper482
  • GormogonGormogon Member UncommonPosts: 209
    Quizzical said:

    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.

    Morrowind is now DLC and is listed in the DLC section of the crown store. 

    That change coincided with stripping out the Warden class to sell separately.  So subscribers can play in Morrowind at no additional cost, but the Warden class still has to be bought for those who didn't buy Morrowind when it was still being sold as a chapter.

    Currently there are two chapters: Summerset and the upcoming Elsweyr.

    Zeni's communication is subpar IMO, and it extends beyond the chapter/DLC issue.  There's been plenty of confusion over the Indrik mounts, for example.  I ended up going to one of the wikis and was able to make sense of it in five seconds, but that shouldn't be necessary.
    Octagon7711
  • SaunZSaunZ Las Vegas, NVMember UncommonPosts: 448
    Gormogon said:
    Quizzical said:

    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.



    Zeni's communication is subpar IMO, and it extends beyond the chapter/DLC issue.  There's been plenty of confusion over the Indrik mounts, for example.  I ended up going to one of the wikis and was able to make sense of it in five seconds, but that shouldn't be necessary.

    I agree... 5 seconds is WAY long


    Sz  :)
  • GormogonGormogon Member UncommonPosts: 209
    SaunZ said:
    Gormogon said:
    Quizzical said:

    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.



    Zeni's communication is subpar IMO, and it extends beyond the chapter/DLC issue.  There's been plenty of confusion over the Indrik mounts, for example.  I ended up going to one of the wikis and was able to make sense of it in five seconds, but that shouldn't be necessary.

    I agree... 5 seconds is WAY long


    Sz  :)

    Obviously just long enough to write a jerk-off response on a gaming forum, though.  G :)
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,185
    Gormogon said:
    Quizzical said:

    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.

    Morrowind is now DLC and is listed in the DLC section of the crown store. 

    That change coincided with stripping out the Warden class to sell separately.  So subscribers can play in Morrowind at no additional cost, but the Warden class still has to be bought for those who didn't buy Morrowind when it was still being sold as a chapter.

    Currently there are two chapters: Summerset and the upcoming Elsweyr.

    Zeni's communication is subpar IMO, and it extends beyond the chapter/DLC issue.  There's been plenty of confusion over the Indrik mounts, for example.  I ended up going to one of the wikis and was able to make sense of it in five seconds, but that shouldn't be necessary.
    It still says that Morrowind is a "chapter" here:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    I can understand making occasional mistakes in how you describe something you're selling and then making changes to make it right when it's pointed out.  The problem is that the errors are far too widespread and don't get fixed to be explainable as accidental.  That's not the sort of thing that a reputable company would do.

    The problem isn't that it takes five seconds to look something up.  It's that you can look it up in one place and it says one thing, but look it up in another and it says something else.  The only real way to know what you'll get for your money is to spend it and find out.
  • ArteriusArterius Member UncommonPosts: 316
    Quizzical said:
    Gormogon said:
    Quizzical said:

    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.

    Morrowind is now DLC and is listed in the DLC section of the crown store. 

    That change coincided with stripping out the Warden class to sell separately.  So subscribers can play in Morrowind at no additional cost, but the Warden class still has to be bought for those who didn't buy Morrowind when it was still being sold as a chapter.

    Currently there are two chapters: Summerset and the upcoming Elsweyr.

    Zeni's communication is subpar IMO, and it extends beyond the chapter/DLC issue.  There's been plenty of confusion over the Indrik mounts, for example.  I ended up going to one of the wikis and was able to make sense of it in five seconds, but that shouldn't be necessary.
    It still says that Morrowind is a "chapter" here:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    I can understand making occasional mistakes in how you describe something you're selling and then making changes to make it right when it's pointed out.  The problem is that the errors are far too widespread and don't get fixed to be explainable as accidental.  That's not the sort of thing that a reputable company would do.

    The problem isn't that it takes five seconds to look something up.  It's that you can look it up in one place and it says one thing, but look it up in another and it says something else.  The only real way to know what you'll get for your money is to spend it and find out.
    It's also listed in the crown store as a chapter as well. They just do what Blizzard does and give out the last chapter for free with a membership.
  • ArteriusArterius Member UncommonPosts: 316
    edited January 17

    Post edited by Arterius on
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,185
    edited January 17
    Arterius said:
    Quizzical said:
    Gormogon said:
    Quizzical said:

    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.

    Morrowind is now DLC and is listed in the DLC section of the crown store. 

    That change coincided with stripping out the Warden class to sell separately.  So subscribers can play in Morrowind at no additional cost, but the Warden class still has to be bought for those who didn't buy Morrowind when it was still being sold as a chapter.

    Currently there are two chapters: Summerset and the upcoming Elsweyr.

    Zeni's communication is subpar IMO, and it extends beyond the chapter/DLC issue.  There's been plenty of confusion over the Indrik mounts, for example.  I ended up going to one of the wikis and was able to make sense of it in five seconds, but that shouldn't be necessary.
    It still says that Morrowind is a "chapter" here:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    I can understand making occasional mistakes in how you describe something you're selling and then making changes to make it right when it's pointed out.  The problem is that the errors are far too widespread and don't get fixed to be explainable as accidental.  That's not the sort of thing that a reputable company would do.

    The problem isn't that it takes five seconds to look something up.  It's that you can look it up in one place and it says one thing, but look it up in another and it says something else.  The only real way to know what you'll get for your money is to spend it and find out.
    It's also listed in the crown store as a chapter as well. They just do what Blizzard does and give out the last chapter for free with a membership.
    I'd have no problem with that business model if their web site made it clear that that's what they're doing.  Blizzard doesn't seem to have any problem making it clear.  My complaint is about Zenimax's false advertising.

    It's not the same business model as WoW, though.  With WoW, you can play most of the game with just a subscription, and can get a modest trial (up to level 20) completely free.  For ESO, you have to buy a box first.
    Post edited by Quizzical on
    Gdemami
  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember EpicPosts: 2,233
    Chapter = expansion everyone has to pay for.
    DLC = content subscribers get for free.

    If you think about it, WoW does EXACTLY the same thing... for subscribers. They have expansions, and then during the course of the expansion, they add more content, quests and landmass for free.

    Nothing wrong here. If you pay $15/month, ESO plays just like WoW. It's a subscription game.
    Whoa....rocket science is hard dude!
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member UncommonPosts: 894
    With ESO it's actually better to wait for a sale in which they lump a few DLC and expansions together for a nice discount if you don't sub.
    Not really.  At this point, you're pretty much better off subscribing.  The price of the Crowns to buy everything is probably north of $200US at this point (it was almost there last time I checked, and Dragon Bones or whatever had just released).  That's almost 1.5 years of a subscription.  By the time that 1.5 years is up, you'd have paid another $60-75 on DLC and expansions - most likely closer to $100+.  It's only as cheap as it is now because the first 4 DLC have been massively discounted :-P  Those of us who bought them earlier paid much more.

    Zeni's business model is that they market the game as buy to play, but they release content on a cadence so fast that it basically becomes a subscription for everyone who keeps up on the content - whether they subscribe or not.

    And not having access to DLCs and Expansions is very disruptive if you want to play this game in a guild environment, or often with friends, since many people WILL have access to it and you'll be left out of a lot of things without it...  People tend to prefer running newer content to older content (dungeons, raids, etc.), in general.  This is why old expansion content tends to die in MMORPGs - even if the level cap doesn't go up.
  • SaunZSaunZ Las Vegas, NVMember UncommonPosts: 448
    Gormogon said:
    SaunZ said:
    Gormogon said:
    Quizzical said:

    Except that Morrowind is a chapter, not DLC, but subscribers get it for free and non-subscribers don't.



    Zeni's communication is subpar IMO, and it extends beyond the chapter/DLC issue.  There's been plenty of confusion over the Indrik mounts, for example.  I ended up going to one of the wikis and was able to make sense of it in five seconds, but that shouldn't be necessary.

    I agree... 5 seconds is WAY long


    Sz  :)

    Obviously just long enough to write a jerk-off response on a gaming forum, though.  G :)


    ooooooo burn

    Sz  :smile:
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