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Bad first impressions

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,983
    With all respect due, and all respect I have for you from other threads, notably in the "Hardware" forum... can I ask you a personal question ?
    Have you fallen on your head recently ?
    Are you claiming that ESO should not have a tutorial akin to what I described in STO?  Or are you claiming that it already does?  Because as of five days ago when I created a new account, it didn't present me with anything resembling a decent tutorial.

    Assuming that you mean that it already has such a tutorial, there are several possibilities that I see:

    1)  The tutorial simply broke.  Maybe if at one point, you zig when the tutorial expected you to zag, you miss some gate that the tutorial expected you to pass through, and then it doesn't do the rest of the tutorial until you pass through that gate.  If I did that after five minutes of gameplay (excluding messing with keybinds, which always takes a long time for me), then that would explain why it looked like there wasn't a tutorial.  In that case, the tutorial is simply fragile and buggy--and being able to easily disable the tutorial by accident would be a pretty severe bug.

    2)  There's a bug that gutted the tutorial, such as by making it be drawn behind the main game display or having the text appear off of the screen entirely.  Don't dismiss this as impossible.  I've had exactly that sort of problem with Trove.  In Trove, at least when I played it, if you made the game window at least about 9 million pixels in size, it made nearly all in-game text vanish.  That included almost the entire tutorial.  So I played through the tutorial with nearly all of the text missing, and thus found the tutorial to be rather lacking.  A lot of game developers don't test their game at the 4320x2560 resolution that I play at, and it's possible to break a lot of things if you're sloppy with how you scale the resolution.

    3)  The game used to have a tutorial, but it has since been removed.  That would be a really stupid thing to do, of course.  But expansions deprecate a lot of content all the time.  You wouldn't think that an expansion would strip out a tutorial, but if you didn't already know otherwise, neither would you think that "Full access to all DLC game packs" meant "access to some but not all of the DLC released since launch".  And if an expansion made a lot of things stated in the original tutorial now wrong, they may not want to leave the tutorial in place unchanged.

    4)  The game has a tutorial, but new players don't start there anymore.  As it stands now, a new player who buys the game today will start in Morrowind, unless he also buys Summerset before creating his first character.  That is not optional; the game never gave me a choice of where to start, nor of whether to do or skip a tutorial.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case at launch, as Morrowind wasn't yet part of the game.  If the tutorial is located at an old starting point for a new character halfway across the game world from where you actually start now, then for all practical purposes, the tutorial is useless because new players will never find it on their own before they no longer need it.

    5)  The game has a tutorial, but it doesn't start until you're far into the game.  Plenty of games have tutorial chunks to introduce additional features far into the game.  Games that do that pretty much always feed you some major chunks of tutorial right at the start, though.  ESO pretty flagrantly didn't do that for me, as I couldn't find any major tutorial components in my first three hours or so of playing, and I was actively looking.  I didn't get nearly as far in those three hours as a veteran player would upon starting a new character, of course.  A lot of it was spent tinkering with keybinds, trying to figure out which controls mattered and which didn't, as I can't map everything to a gamepad.  A lot was also spent running around trying to figure out what to do and trying not to miss anything important.

    But I am completely serious when I say that, upon creating a new account last Saturday and playing for about three hours, I wasn't able to find anything that you could reasonably call a tutorial for the game.  And I am also completely serious when I say that I think that is a pretty severe blunder in the design of a game.  There should be a tutorial available to new players, and it shouldn't be presented immediately and right in your face so as to not possible to accidentally miss it.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,905
    The tutorial in ESO is not useless but it could definitely be better.

    It does teach you the basics like walking, running, the map, light attacks, heavy attacks, blocking and bashing interrupts, and the game does have other tutorial text when you do some things for the first time... like your first mundus stone, your first skyshard, your first public dungeon, your first visit to a riding trainer, etc. But the whole thing is based on exploration and discovery: it does not send you to that first mundus stone and only the original vanilla tutorial in the Coldharbour prison plops a skyshard in front of you within the tutorial - the Morrowind and Summerset tutorials do not. Both, mundus stones and skyshards are hugely important parts of the game and character building.

    Likewise the guilds... mages, fighters and undaunted are things you should join early since the activities that advance it won't credit the advancement until you do and skills in those lines are part of just about every single build. The game should more clearly direct you to them instead of letting you stumble onto them as you explore.

    And speaking of Mundus stones... neither Vanderfell nor Summerset have any and yet the game leads you to believe that if you own those chapters those are the areas you should be questing in right after the tutorial.

    More egregious is the use of combat pets for the two classes, Wardens and Sorcerers, that have them available. I bet you anything that the vast majority of people in this forum that play the game don't even know that you can send the pet to attack something before you engage it by holding "Y" and left clicking on the target and recall them into passive mode by "Y" + right clicking. The game just never tells you that at any time. Most people find out about it through forums and wikis.

    And still on the subject of pets... seeing their health bar is off by default and you need to turn it on by first turning on "nameplates" which is also off by default, and then somehow just knowing that in this game combat pets fall under the "friendly NPC" category and then turn that health bar visibility on in that sub menu. 

    Quiz may be going off the deep end a bit but he is definitely not totally off the mark. 
    TorvalPhry
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,983
    edited August 2018
    Iselin said:
    It does teach you the basics like walking, running, the map, light attacks, heavy attacks, blocking and bashing interrupts, and the game does have other tutorial text when you do some things for the first time... like your first mundus stone, your first skyshard, your first public dungeon, your first visit to a riding trainer, etc. But the whole thing is based on exploration and discovery: it does not send you to that first mundus stone and only the original vanilla tutorial in the Coldharbour prison plops a skyshard in front of you within the tutorial - the Morrowind and Summerset tutorials do not. Both, mundus stones and skyshards are hugely important parts of the game and character building.
    I did not find any explanation of walking, running, or the map, at least beyond having them listed on the keybinds menu.  Knowing about quest markers on the map is hugely important, and I found it by accident without the tutorial explaining it and well after it really should have.  There were brief mentions of light and heavy attacks, and either blocking, interrupts, or dodging, but not necessarily all three.

    It started me out having been captured by Dark Elf slavers and trying to break free.  The quest was called Broken Bonds.  There were a handful of tutorial quest tooltips over the course of that quest, but everything that could really be called tutorial about it could readily fit on a single 3"x5" index card.  After that, it drops you off in the main game world, in a small town where, as best as I could tell, the only quest was Divine Conundrum.  I did that quest to completion, but there was nothing remotely tutorial about it at all, and it wouldn't have been out of place as a level 20 or 40 quest, at least in a game where level 20 or 40 quests are supposed to be easy.
    Phry
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,905
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    It does teach you the basics like walking, running, the map, light attacks, heavy attacks, blocking and bashing interrupts, and the game does have other tutorial text when you do some things for the first time... like your first mundus stone, your first skyshard, your first public dungeon, your first visit to a riding trainer, etc. But the whole thing is based on exploration and discovery: it does not send you to that first mundus stone and only the original vanilla tutorial in the Coldharbour prison plops a skyshard in front of you within the tutorial - the Morrowind and Summerset tutorials do not. Both, mundus stones and skyshards are hugely important parts of the game and character building.
    I did not find any explanation of walking, running, or the map, at least beyond having them listed on the keybinds menu.  Knowing about quest markers on the map is hugely important, and I found it by accident without the tutorial explaining it and well after it really should have.  There were brief mentions of light and heavy attacks, and either blocking, interrupts, or dodging, but not necessarily all three.

    It started me out having been captured by Dark Elf slavers and trying to break free.  The quest was called Broken Bonds.  There were a handful of tutorial quest tooltips over the course of that quest, but everything that could really be called tutorial about it could readily fit on a single 3"x5" index card.  After that, it drops you off in the main game world, in a small town where, as best as I could tell, the only quest was Divine Conundrum.  I did that quest to completion, but there was nothing remotely tutorial about it at all, and it wouldn't have been out of place as a level 20 or 40 quest, at least in a game where level 20 or 40 quests are supposed to be easy.
    You did the Vvanderfell tutorial which is one of the new ones but you did it on a game pad so I have no idea what that shows or doesn't since I've ever only done it using M&KB.

    For me it showed just looking around and interacting with an object on the ship, the basic WASD movement is at the bottom of the screen as you regain consciousness, the block, bash interrupt and heavy attack happen in your bare knuckle fight with Naryu. The "M" for map pops up as soon as you leave that first hut, "I" for equipping items happens as soon as you find your first weapon, etc. But like I said IDK what they showed you or didn't when using a game pad.

    I already said earlier in this thread that showcasing their new area by plopping you in either Vvanderfell or Summerset right after the tutorial is misguided and doesn't do new players any favors since they are not noob-friendly zones. 

    The game as designed originally sent you to one of your Alliance starter islands after the original tutorial and those are well designed to continue the early levels learning experience. That is still there and is the best way to start the game but of course, someone other than ZOS needs to tell you that before you'd know it.

    Many, many people have suggested to them that the game should give you an option of which tutorial you want to do when you create a character and heavily recommend that original Coldharbour prison tutorial for new players.
    SovrathTorvalScorchiengervaise1YashaXblueturtle13Phry
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,660
    They revamped the Cold Harbor tutorial too in order to streamline and make it more friendly. I think they should have stuck with that version it made narrative flow more cohesively.

    What they should do is rework the tutorial system and go back to CH and then directly to "Starter Isle". Then offer starter breadcrumbs like they did with Orsinium. That was perfect. By the time new players get done with Starter Isle they are ready to choose a path that interests them.

    For existing players who have gone through once, they can offer a tutorial skip and a fast boat off the starter isle.

    Regardless of all that, I do agree that the first impression isn't great and that ZoS and Firor talk out of both sides of their mouth. That said, this shouldn't be surprising or a traumatic hurdle for an experienced MMO player. I can't think of one single MMO that doesn't give some big /smh moment at some point.
    gervaise1Iselinlaserit
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
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  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,222
    edited August 2018
    First impression of the game was ruined by all the people screaming for Skyrim Online... so to appease that vocal minority you now get dumped in a city with no idea what's going on... because apparently that makes it feel more 'open'. This was the player's fault.
    YashaX
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,871
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    It does teach you the basics like walking, running, the map, light attacks, heavy attacks, blocking and bashing interrupts, and the game does have other tutorial text when you do some things for the first time... like your first mundus stone, your first skyshard, your first public dungeon, your first visit to a riding trainer, etc. But the whole thing is based on exploration and discovery: it does not send you to that first mundus stone and only the original vanilla tutorial in the Coldharbour prison plops a skyshard in front of you within the tutorial - the Morrowind and Summerset tutorials do not. Both, mundus stones and skyshards are hugely important parts of the game and character building.
    I did not find any explanation of walking, running, or the map, at least beyond having them listed on the keybinds menu.  Knowing about quest markers on the map is hugely important, and I found it by accident without the tutorial explaining it and well after it really should have.  There were brief mentions of light and heavy attacks, and either blocking, interrupts, or dodging, but not necessarily all three.

    It started me out having been captured by Dark Elf slavers and trying to break free.  The quest was called Broken Bonds.  There were a handful of tutorial quest tooltips over the course of that quest, but everything that could really be called tutorial about it could readily fit on a single 3"x5" index card.  After that, it drops you off in the main game world, in a small town where, as best as I could tell, the only quest was Divine Conundrum.  I did that quest to completion, but there was nothing remotely tutorial about it at all, and it wouldn't have been out of place as a level 20 or 40 quest, at least in a game where level 20 or 40 quests are supposed to be easy.
    You did the Vvanderfell tutorial which is one of the new ones but you did it on a game pad so I have no idea what that shows or doesn't since I've ever only done it using M&KB.

    For me it showed just looking around and interacting with an object on the ship, the basic WASD movement is at the bottom of the screen as you regain consciousness, the block, bash interrupt and heavy attack happen in your bare knuckle fight with Naryu. The "M" for map pops up as soon as you leave that first hut, "I" for equipping items happens as soon as you find your first weapon, etc. But like I said IDK what they showed you or didn't when using a game pad.

    I already said earlier in this thread that showcasing their new area by plopping you in either Vvanderfell or Summerset right after the tutorial is misguided and doesn't do new players any favors since they are not noob-friendly zones. 

    The game as designed originally sent you to one of your Alliance starter islands after the original tutorial and those are well designed to continue the early levels learning experience. That is still there and is the best way to start the game but of course, someone other than ZOS needs to tell you that before you'd know it.

    Many, many people have suggested to them that the game should give you an option of which tutorial you want to do when you create a character and heavily recommend that original Coldharbour prison tutorial for new players.
    Coldharbour is a very well done new player experience ......
    TorvalYashaXRexKushman
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,292
    edited August 2018
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:
    <snip>

    The game as designed originally sent you to one of your Alliance starter islands after the original tutorial and those are well designed to continue the early levels learning experience. That is still there and is the best way to start the game but of course, someone other than ZOS needs to tell you that before you'd know it.

    Many, many people have suggested to them that the game should give you an option of which tutorial you want to do when you create a character and heavily recommend that original Coldharbour prison tutorial for new players.
    Not forgetting that very early on in your characters development you would get quests that would take you to the mage and fighters guild as well as the main storyline, first dungeon and so forth.

    With One Tamriel they got rid of the tram lines but threw the baby out with the bathwater (for those familiar with the saying).  

    So yes an option to select a tutorial. And I would go further and allow people to do all of them if they wish. And provide some in-game Question & Answers such as: Q To learn how to move A: Do xxxx tutorial. Q: ... fight A Do .... Q To unlock your character traits A For Magic go X, For fighting etc. Q To access daily dungeons - go here. Not forgetting - as Iselin pointed out - how to use pets.

    Collect the basic info together and put it in a Q&A. And have a big button for people to click on so they find out about them. Its a gameplay first thing!


    TorvalIselin
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,983
    I think the real discrepancy here is how detailed of a tutorial it takes to be useful.  Let's take the map.  A brief tooltip that shows once saying "Press M to bring up the map", doesn't really tell you anything that reading the keybinds menu wouldn't have.  That I had already read through and heavily modified the keybinds menu before even starting the tutorial may be why I was so unimpressed.  ESO has some such tooltips pop up, but they don't tell you much.

    What it really needs to be useful is more information.  Don't just say to press M to toggle the map and leave it at that.  After the player opens the map, have some text that explains that this icon is your current location.  The white arrows are key points for your currently active quest.  The black arrows are key points for other quests besides your current primary one.  And anything else that seems good for a player to know.  That is, don't just tell the player that there is a map and leave it at that.  Explain how to use it.  That's what you need to do in order to have anything worth calling a tutorial.

    More generally, don't just have pop-ups randomly summarize one line from the keybinds menu.  Explain what the feature is, how to use it, and why the player should care.  Give the player a simple example where using the feature is useful, and let the player click on whatever it is and use the feature in a situation where it matters.

    ESO most emphatically does not do that for anything that I could find.  That's why I say it doesn't have a tutorial.  It may have some few pieces of text that it calls a tutorial.  But it doesn't have anything that fills the role in helping new players to learn the game that a good tutorial is supposed to fill.  That's the problem.
  • XImpalerXXImpalerX Member UncommonPosts: 606
    edited August 2018
    I hope you don't ever try to play Dark Souls lol. Seriously though, have you never learned by doing and experimenting? Do you have to have everything explained to you in such detail in order to learn how to play a game?

    There are so many resources available online in the form of guides, videos, reddit, etc., not to mention if you click the ? on the top bar interface, everything about the game is explained in so much detail, beyond what is ever needed...

    How do you think the 2ish million current players learned to play the game? I have never seen this effect on someone from a game they tried to play...
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,292
    People who try something and are happy generally don't provide much feedback to companies.

    People who try something and are unhappy typically don't provide much feedback about why and a large number - up to about 70% of them in some countries - go on to tell others they are unhappy. 

    People who try something and are unhappy and take the time to say why are like gold dust for companies. Hopefully Zanimax will pick up on @Quizzical 's comments.

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,517
    I don't think Summerset is required at all except if your curious about the story or like annoying Dr Who Skulls with Australian accents. Does it spam you on the starter screen to buy Summerset if you don't own it? If So, then that sucks. And yep, pretty much a whole scam for the unwary about all the aditional stuff you need to buy. But they do tell you. You get every DLC for free with ESO + Basegame + ESO+ is pretty much required to get the best out of the game imo.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,983
    XImpalerX said:
    I hope you don't ever try to play Dark Souls lol. Seriously though, have you never learned by doing and experimenting? Do you have to have everything explained to you in such detail in order to learn how to play a game?

    There are so many resources available online in the form of guides, videos, reddit, etc., not to mention if you click the ? on the top bar interface, everything about the game is explained in so much detail, beyond what is ever needed...

    How do you think the 2ish million current players learned to play the game? I have never seen this effect on someone from a game they tried to play...
    There's a simple principle involved here:  some parts of buying and installing a game are simply  not fun.  Don't make those parts longer or more painful than necessary.

    For example, don't make a download take two hours if you could easily have made it take one.  Don't make players modify any files in a hex editor before game will run.  Don't make a player solve 10 captchas before he can enter a credit card number to pay.  Don't make it so that the only way to pay for a game is using gift cards for random-seeming stores unrelated to your game.  (Wakfu actually did that one, by the way.)  Don't make it so that every update requires players to completely delete the old version and redownload the new version from scratch.  And don't make it so that it takes a new player ten minutes of experimenting to figure out a mechanic that you could have explained in a two minute tutorial.

    There's no advantage to making that sort of blunder.  It will cost you players for no good reason.  Even if it's not that many players, losing 1% of your player base for an AAA game costs you hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars.  Many players are very prone to quitting a game right when they start.  Don't put a completely unnecessary pain point in the way that causes you to lose more of them than necessary.

    I really, truly don't see what's so complicated about this.  If you want to argue that they botched the tutorial, but a player interested in the game can figure out how to play anyway, then go ahead.  I would agree with that.  But arguing that they did not botch the tutorial at all is ridiculous.  Games with a budget less than 1% of ESO's manage to have a far better developed and more polished tutorial than ESO does.  It isn't very expensive to type out text, nor to have a programmer put a handful of hooks in to display that text at various points.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,983
    When I talk about players quitting, I don't mean that someone who has played for six months is going to suddenly quit because he doesn't like the tutorial.  Of course that's not going to happen.  But someone who has played for twenty minutes might.  And a lot of people don't realize how bad the attrition rate for new players tends to be in computer games.

    Let's take Spiral Knights as an example, which conveniently has Steam achievements to let you know what fraction of the players who play through Steam get how far.  Here's a link:

    https://steamcommunity.com/stats/SpiralKnights/achievements

    Skilled, veteran players will tend to have Gold Survivor, as you naturally get that just by playing the game, unlike some achievements that you have to go out of your way to get.  That's only 0.2% of the people who have played it through Steam.

    But let's look at some of the easier achievements.  Jump Start means you died and then revived yourself.  Only 27.7% of players have that.  Mission Accomplished means you cleared three levels.  Only 25.8% of players have that.  Someone who plays for an hour will probably get at least one of those.  First Steps means that a player got a few minutes into the introduction, and only 77.7% of players have that.  That's a pretty horrible attrition rate.  And Spiral Knights is a good game, too.
    Phry
  • MalindaTheStrangeMalindaTheStrange Member UncommonPosts: 5
    I don't recall elder scrolls having a tutorial in any of their games. It was just a prolog of this is your situation and current location, now its your turn to do whatever you want.
    YashaX
  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,391
    I think the entire game from 1-49 is far too slow, and drives people off. The fun is at 50. I'm not sure why an MMO needs a tutorial. All of them have the pretty much the same concept.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,036
    Golelorn said:
    I think the entire game from 1-49 is far too slow, and drives people off. The fun is at 50. I'm not sure why an MMO needs a tutorial. All of them have the pretty much the same concept.
    I was trying 3-4 different toons and got all of them to about level 10 before deciding it just wasn't much fun......THe combat is slow and boring and other than a pretty world the game kinda stinks.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,905
    Golelorn said:
    I think the entire game from 1-49 is far too slow, and drives people off. The fun is at 50. I'm not sure why an MMO needs a tutorial. All of them have the pretty much the same concept.
    I was trying 3-4 different toons and got all of them to about level 10 before deciding it just wasn't much fun......THe combat is slow and boring and other than a pretty world the game kinda stinks.
    To each their own but the game doesn't really even start until after level 10. You can't even PvP or do group dungeons until after that.

    Plus the skill point system means that you're skill point starved until at least level 15 or so. Most builds don't even start coming together until the 20s and that only if you really know what you're doing and choose your skills and morphs wisely.

    It's actually easier to mess up your builds than to get them right when you're first starting to play ESO.

    Once you get it though, the combat is anything but slow and boring. It's fast paced with a lot of moving and reacting. Best way to learn is to do group dungeons even if you need to be carried for all intents and purposes. Chances are you'll be grouped with one or two players who know how to play it well and you can at least see what it looks like when you do. Early on when about the only thing you're capable of doing is basic weapon light and heavy attacks, yeah, that's slow and boring :)

    It's not a game that holds your hand when you're new. In that respect Quiz is absolutely right in that it isn't very noob friendly. It's kind of old school in that way although not really hardcore like most old school MMOs... it's actually a pretty easy game once you get the hang of it.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    I don't recall elder scrolls having a tutorial in any of their games. It was just a prolog of this is your situation and current location, now its your turn to do whatever you want.
    ESO is not like any other game in the Elder Scrolls genre, its probably easier if you forget everything about the elder scrolls games because none of it helps you understand or play ESO, thats from the combat to the magic system and the classes. Expecting something like Skyrim or Oblivion etc. will only give you expectations that will probably cause you to be disappointed in the game, if you treat it like a new unrelated MMO then your more likely to enjoy it, and not trip up over features that either don't exist or are radically different from what you thought they would be. :/
    Octagon7711
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,905
    Phry said:
    I don't recall elder scrolls having a tutorial in any of their games. It was just a prolog of this is your situation and current location, now its your turn to do whatever you want.
    ESO is not like any other game in the Elder Scrolls genre, its probably easier if you forget everything about the elder scrolls games because none of it helps you understand or play ESO, thats from the combat to the magic system and the classes. Expecting something like Skyrim or Oblivion etc. will only give you expectations that will probably cause you to be disappointed in the game, if you treat it like a new unrelated MMO then your more likely to enjoy it, and not trip up over features that either don't exist or are radically different from what you thought they would be. :/
    That's hardly different than going from one TES single player game to another one. The differences between them are far greater than the similarities :) About the only thing they have in common with each other is the default first person perspective and the common lore bits.

    They've had class systems and open systems and everything in between. They've had spell crafting in some and none in others, etc.
    TorvalOctagon7711
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Iselin said:
    Golelorn said:
    I think the entire game from 1-49 is far too slow, and drives people off. The fun is at 50. I'm not sure why an MMO needs a tutorial. All of them have the pretty much the same concept.
    I was trying 3-4 different toons and got all of them to about level 10 before deciding it just wasn't much fun......THe combat is slow and boring and other than a pretty world the game kinda stinks.
    To each their own but the game doesn't really even start until after level 10. You can't even PvP or do group dungeons until after that.

    Plus the skill point system means that you're skill point starved until at least level 15 or so. Most builds don't even start coming together until the 20s and that only if you really know what you're doing and choose your skills and morphs wisely.

    It's actually easier to mess up your builds than to get them right when you're first starting to play ESO.

    Once you get it though, the combat is anything but slow and boring. It's fast paced with a lot of moving and reacting. Best way to learn is to do group dungeons even if you need to be carried for all intents and purposes. Chances are you'll be grouped with one or two players who know how to play it well and you can at least see what it looks like when you do. Early on when about the only thing you're capable of doing is basic weapon light and heavy attacks, yeah, that's slow and boring :)

    It's not a game that holds your hand when you're new. In that respect Quiz is absolutely right in that it isn't very noob friendly. It's kind of old school in that way although not really hardcore like most old school MMOs... it's actually a pretty easy game once you get the hang of it.
    One of the things I like about the game was how it just threw you out into the world.  After playing with alts you learn the ropes.  It encourages explorations and just wondering around and running into quests or just following main quest lines if that's your thing.  No game is perfect but this one rarely forces you to do just one thing to play it effectively.  
    Iselin

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,983
    I don't recall elder scrolls having a tutorial in any of their games. It was just a prolog of this is your situation and current location, now its your turn to do whatever you want.
    The problem is that there's an enormous difference between:

    a)  here are a bunch of things that you can do; pick whichever you want
    b)  there are a bunch of things that you could do, but we're not going to tell you about them

    What is the advantage of the latter over the former?
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,983
    Golelorn said:
    I think the entire game from 1-49 is far too slow, and drives people off. The fun is at 50. I'm not sure why an MMO needs a tutorial. All of them have the pretty much the same concept.
    I'm not saying that the game should start with three hours of pure tutorial.  But is it really so much to ask that a new feature be introduced with a few sentences of text explaining it, rather than only a few words mentioning that the feature exists?  What's the advantage to asking a player to spend several minutes fumbling around until he figures out a new feature rather than explaining it in twenty seconds?  Games built on a budget less than 1% of ESO's have no problem doing the latter.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    Iselin said:
    @Scorchien

    I just play the fucking games. Lore reconciliation is a fanboy OCD issue. :)
    The funniest ones are when the "Lore friendly" arguments take place on Nexus............."Dude, you realize you are saying this on a mod site right?"
    QuizzicalIselin
  • EvilPlayerTwoEvilPlayerTwo Member CommonPosts: 10
    UI options in ESO is a mess and you need to download addons to make it 80 % better only..its still a mess..then the nightmare begins when the addon is outdated ot has been left by the programmer..

    But just buying eso and pay for sub and think you have the whole game is like thinking you can play the batle of azeroth just buying wow vanilla and pay for sub..its the same thing.

    Im not sure what lvl i am but its 5-600+ something and all my craft skills are lvl 50 and i have nothing to do since i have decent gear that i manage my way around the game..no need to be more op. Dont follow the yet confused mr. alocast or what he is called..he says 1 thing and post another on his site and makes video about a 3rd thing when it comes to 1 build he want to show you about.

    But again im so bored i dont know what to do in this game anymore..and so will you :D
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