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Bad first impressions

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    edited August 2018
    El-Hefe said:
    @Quizzical you made almost 20,000 posts on this site.  I don't think yur stupid.  But c'mon man.  You're either trolling or your drunk or high or both.  
    Read the site yourself:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/esoplus

    Imagine that you had never played the game and didn't know anything about ESO Plus except for what the official web site said.  Do you see anything at all on that page that would lead you to believe that "Full access to all DLC game packs" (bold in the original, not mine) means "Full access to all DLC game packs except for Summerset"?  Or perhaps that some but not all of what every other game would call a DLC game pack are regarded as something else by Zenimax so that they're not included with a subscription?  Anywhere else on the same page is also legal to check, including the fine print.

    That's what I was looking at when I made my decision on what to buy.

    If they meant "all DLC game packs except for Summerset", then they should have said "all DLC game packs except for Summerset".  A browser search demonstrates that the page doesn't even mention Summerset.
    Gdemami
  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760
    edited August 2018
    Yes but a click on the menu shows you what's what.  https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    For the record I'm not trying to defend them.  But they provide you all the info.  Good luck man.

    I've got the straight edge.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    edited August 2018
    El-Hefe said:
    Yes but a click on the menu shows you what's what.  https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    For the record I'm not trying to defend them.  But they provide you all the info.  Good luck man.
    That page doesn't explain it, either.  That lists 13 things.  It specifies that 9 of them are free to people with ESO Plus.  Three of the other four are also free to people with ESO Plus.  It never explicitly says that Summerset isn't.  Indeed, that page doesn't distinguish between Morrowind and Summerset at all in their business model, even though the former is included with ESO Plus and the latter isn't.

    Besides, that's in the game updates list.  Have you ever in your life picked up an online game more than four years after launch and read through the complete list of updates since launch before buying the game?  Ever?  Even once?  Do you know of a single person who ever has for any game ever?  That's far beyond doing due diligence before buying a game.  Even if that page had explicitly said that Summerset isn't included with ESO Plus--which it doesn't--that's far beyond reading the fine print.

    Furthermore, if you're trying to sell a product, information about the product should be on the page about it.   Even if somewhere else on the same web site contradicts what is strongly implied by the main product page, that's no excuse to make the page for a product intentionally misleading.
    PhryGdemamiAnskier
  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760
    Quizzical said:
    El-Hefe said:
    Yes but a click on the menu shows you what's what.  https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    For the record I'm not trying to defend them.  But they provide you all the info.  Good luck man.
    That page doesn't explain it, either.  That lists 13 things.  It specifies that 9 of them are free to people with ESO Plus.  Three of the other four are also free to people with ESO Plus.  It never explicitly says that Summerset isn't.  Indeed, that page doesn't distinguish between Morrowind and Summerset at all in their business model, even though the former is included with ESO Plus and the latter isn't.

    Besides, that's in the game updates list.  Have you ever in your life picked up an online game more than four years after launch and read through the complete list of updates since launch before buying the game?  Ever?  Even once?  Do you know of a single person who ever has for any game ever?  That's far beyond doing due diligence before buying a game.  Even if that page had explicitly said that Summerset isn't included with ESO Plus--which it doesn't--that's far beyond reading the fine print.
    No.  If i buy a game 3 or 4 years or however long after release I buy the cheapest version available. Then I see if I like it before spending my hard earned money to unlock other things in the game.  I don't just assume I will like it.  

    I've got the straight edge.

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 364
    Keller said:
    Scorchien said:
    Hmm there really isnt much of a learning curve with ESO , pretty simplistic game tbh , you should have most things figured out in a day or 2 , as far as it systems go , then its just a matter of settling into a build you are comfortable with , Plenty of guides online to help with that ...Really no need to split on build for ex.. go full Stam Nightblade and you can solo almost the entire game
    Plus there are only a few viable builds with mandatory rotations which will be thrown at you when doing a simple dungeon run and you don't do well on the dps meters.
    Complete BS.

    I've run many dungeons, over and over, on Regular, Vet, Hard Mode, etc... From the easiest on up to Trials. Never once has anyone ever "thrown" anything at me regarding builds or rotations. Have people made suggestions they thought could help? Yep, and I welcomed their advice. But at no point has anyone ever "thrown" or made demands of me.

    And frankly, if it did happen.. I'd safely know I could ignore it, because it would be some min-max obsessed player trying to impose their playstyle on everyone else.

    In FFXIV? Yep. Happened all the time; people love telling others how to play in that game.  In ESO? Nope. Not once. 
    SlyLoKYashaX
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 364
    edited August 2018
    Mikeha said:
    Pay To Win 
    Wrong.

    Not even close.

    You can always tell when a MMO is doing really well, by the amount of misinformation people try to spread about it; they're so desperate to convince people not to play something they don't like.

    Not that I needed to read forums to know - I play the game and see how active it is every time I log in  - but ESO is clearly doing very well with some of the nonsense I see people trying to put out there. 
    Jean-Luc_Picardmikeb0817
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 364
    edited August 2018
    Quizzical said:
    Mikeha said:
    Pay To Win 
    I don't have a problem with paying for a game I like.  I do have a huge problem with the false advertising, though.  The problem is that they advertise that if you pay $x, you get Y and Z.  Then you pay $x and get Y, but they say no, you have to pay more money to get Z.
    Except it's not false advertising. It's you, the reader, misinterpreting the advertising and/or reading into it what you want it to mean, instead of verifying what it actually does.

    On the official site, the option to buy Summerset clearly says it comes with the Summerset Chapter, plus the base game.

    On the ESO Plus page it clearly lists what you get with ESO+ versus what you get without it. It's organized in an easy-to-understand table.

    On the DLC/Updates page, it clearly explains, at the very top:
    "... DLC game packs as part of an active  ESO Plus™ membership or acquired via the Crown Store, and Chapters available online or from retail stores."

    - You get DLC either through ESO+, or via purchase in the Crown Store.
    - You get Chapters online (which they link to the purchase page), or retail stores.

    Clear as crystal.

    And each of the content packs is clearly indicated as DLC or Chapters, so there's no misleading or ambiguity there, either. DLC is labeled DLC. Chapters are labeled Chapter.
     
    It's all right there in plain English. Nothing obscure or ambiguous or misleading about it. Your inability or unwillingness read what's right there on the website does not constitute "false advertising" by ZoS.


    SlyLoKNephethGdemamimikeb0817Tindale111
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    Quizzical said:
    Mikeha said:
    Pay To Win 
    I don't have a problem with paying for a game I like.  I do have a huge problem with the false advertising, though.  The problem is that they advertise that if you pay $x, you get Y and Z.  Then you pay $x and get Y, but they say no, you have to pay more money to get Z.
    Except it's not false advertising. It's you, the reader, misinterpreting the advertising and/or reading into it what you want it to mean, instead of verifying what it actually does.

    On the official site, the option to buy Summerset clearly says it comes with the Summerset Chapter, plus the base game.

    On the ESO Plus page it clearly lists what you get with ESO+ versus what you get without it. It's organized in an easy-to-understand table.

    On the DLC/Updates page, it clearly explains, at the very top:
    "... DLC game packs as part of an active  ESO Plus™ membership or acquired via the Crown Store, and Chapters available online or from retail stores."

    - You get DLC either through ESO+, or via purchase in the Crown Store.
    - You get Chapters online (which they link to the purchase page), or retail stores.

    Clear as crystal.

    And each of the content packs is clearly indicated as DLC or Chapters, so there's no misleading or ambiguity there, either. DLC is labeled DLC. Chapters are labeled Chapter.
     
    It's all right there in plain English. Nothing obscure or ambiguous or misleading about it. Your inability or unwillingness read what's right there on the website does not constitute "false advertising" by ZoS.
    How about if you try reading your own links, or at least the rest of the thread before you reply?  Morrowind is included in ESO Plus.  Summerset isn't.  The DLC/Updates page doesn't make any distinction between them in business model.  And even if it had, that isn't on the ESO Plus page that you link.

    You're basically arguing that anyone who buys something from a web site can be assumed to have read and understood every single page on the entire site, not just the main product page for the product they buy.  Apply that to a site like Amazon and it means that they could ship you literally anything at all for your purchase because there was a caveat on some other page that you didn't find.
    Gdemami
  • HarafnirHarafnir Member UncommonPosts: 1,340
    The difference between DLC and Expansion (Chapter). Learn it, use it, love it.
    Iselin

    "This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
    It should be thrown with great force"

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    Harafnir said:
    The difference between DLC and Expansion (Chapter). Learn it, use it, love it.
    Because expansions are not a form of downloadable content?
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,686
    Quizzical said:
    Harafnir said:
    The difference between DLC and Expansion (Chapter). Learn it, use it, love it.
    Because expansions are not a form of downloadable content?
    ESO does make a distinction, they just fail to explain it well. It started with Morrowind, so it's relatively recent.

    I think you have good grounds to get a refund if you choose to do so. That being said, apart from the moral righteous ground, I don't know that it's worth the effort. The base game itself is B2P, enjoy the MVP access while you have it, and having access to the game in the future may be worth the price of learning the lesson that Zenimax isn't a straight shooter and not burning that bridge.

    I bought the game on sale a while back. I did try it in beta and hated it. I still don't really like it, but I support it mainly because it has a decent PS4 port and an OS X port and I like MMO options beyond just Windows. I still log in from time to time to fool around, but the game just has never hooked me. I did finish the main story line eventually, that was worth the 20-30 hours it took solo. The dungeons are interesting, but they get run so quickly by veterans I have no idea what's really going on.

    Torval
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,103
    Harafnir said:
    The difference between DLC and Expansion (Chapter). Learn it, use it, love it.
    They themselves have never called chapters expansions. Apparently though it does help some people feel OK about paying extra for that one yearly DLC if they think of it that way :)

    Neither Summerset nor Morrowind added much (any?) more to the game than Orsinium did and Orsinium was a DLC simply because that was the business model at that time. It would definitely have been a "chapter" if that had been their model back then.

    The whole "chapter" horseshit is nothing but a business model change -- and I'm not saying that games can't change their business model, they obviously can and do -- from all DLC included with ESO+ subscription and/or available to buy with crowns, to a model where they batch the meatiest yearly additions into one DLC, call it a "chapter", charge extra for it, exclude it from ESO+ and make it not available to buy with crowns.

    Quiz has a point. We know what's what because we play the game and have seen all the changes and the spin but to someone brand new it really isn't clear enough in their store what is or isn't included not to mention the confusion with all the different editions for sale that change all the time.

    If you scroll up you'll see that even people who do play the game currently don't even know for sure what is or isn't included with Morrowind now that they have "de-chaptered" the zone but separated the Warden class that used to come with it into something that you can buy with crowns but is no longer included.
    RidelynnTorvalGdemami
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    Iselin said:
    If you scroll up you'll see that even people who do play the game currently don't even know for sure what is or isn't included with Morrowind now that they have "de-chaptered" the zone but separated the Warden class that used to come with it into something that you can buy with crowns but is no longer included.
    When I created a character, it gave me the option to create a warden.  I didn't try clicking on it and actually creating the character, so it's possible that it was just a tease there to give me an error message if I tried it.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,103
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    If you scroll up you'll see that even people who do play the game currently don't even know for sure what is or isn't included with Morrowind now that they have "de-chaptered" the zone but separated the Warden class that used to come with it into something that you can buy with crowns but is no longer included.
    When I created a character, it gave me the option to create a warden.  I didn't try clicking on it and actually creating the character, so it's possible that it was just a tease there to give me an error message if I tried it.
    Who knows? Maybe your edition included it lol. So many editions and they keep changing...

    For those that don't have it it's 1500 crowns (= one month's sub) in the store:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/crownstore/category/7#class

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    If you want to defend Zenimax wording their web site as it is while not making Summerset part of "all DLC game packs", then I think the best possible defense of is this.  They're using "DLC game packs" as a technical term only loosely correlated with the ordinary English meaning of the words, and what it really means is a game update that is for sale in the DLC section of the crown shop.

    If you cross-reference their DLC/Updates page with the DLC section of the crown store, there are four things on the former not listed on the latter.  Homestead and One Tamriel are free for everyone, Wolfhunter isn't launched yet, and Summerset is the other one.  So that would seem to imply that Summerset isn't included.

    To make that argument, you have to expect the prospective player to check not one but two other particular pages and cross reference exactly the right portions of them against each other.  In my case, I probably read 30-50 pages on the game's site before my purchase, but not the DLC/Updates page.  And even then, "DLC game packs" not meaning the ordinary English meaning of the words is quite a stretch.  That we're far into the second page with a number of people inclined to defend what Zenimax did, and no one had yet come up with that argument, points to just how arcane and obscure it is.

    If the best possible defense of Zenimax's actions is that it's intentionally misleading but not quite a lie because a lawyer researching that particular question (as opposed to the dozens of other considerations that go into deciding whether to purchase a game) probably could have come to that conclusion in under an hour, then Zenimax is a very shady company and not to be trusted.  And if they'll do that on the very first day that I try the game, why should I believe that anything else that I buy from them will be what I expect?  The most rational response in that case is not, give them more money to fix it.  It's to never give them another dime ever again.

    I'm willing to overlook a lot more if I like a game.  I thought Uncharted Waters Online was a great game, for example, so I played it anyway even though I strongly disapproved of them monetizing it almost entirely via loot boxes actively trying to make the game pay to win.  (I didn't buy any loot boxes, and only spent about $20 in total to actively play the game for about two years.)  If I thought ESO was a great game, I'd probably just pay the $30 to add Summerset, complain about it, and keep playing.

    I don't want until more than four years after launch to try a game that I expect to be great.  I was ambivalent about the game before I tried it, and my brief experience with the game wasn't a positive one.  Even if you completely ignore the business model concerns, the rest of my original post doesn't exactly scream "this is a really fun game".

    I think that ultimately, I'm going to wait and see what response I get from customer service.  If they accept either of my demands (either give me what the site promised or refund my money), I'll consider the matter closed.  If they ignore my ticket for a few days, or give me an insulting response of "you can add Summerset for only $30" (whereas it would have been $20 if you buy it as part of the game), I'll probably declare Zenimax a scammer site, do a credit card chargeback, and file a complaint with the FTC.  For anything else, I'll wait and see what they say.
    Gdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    Actually, if you really want to avoid assuming bad faith on the part of Zenimax, then the best defense of what they did is that it's akin to a site having a typo in a price that they list on their web site.  Suppose, for example, that the main product page for widgets says that they're $8 each, so you buy 10 of them for $80 in total.  But the intended price had been $10 each, and somewhere else on their site it says that they cost $10 each.

    A reputable company might say, fine, it's our mistake, so you can have the widgets you ordered for $8 each.  Or they might say, we can't afford to honor that price and ship a ton of inventory at a loss, so we'll cancel the sale and refund your money.  But what they can't do is to say, you paid $80, and widgets are $10 each, so we'll send you 8 widgets, and you can't return them for a refund.  If they try to do that, then they're by definition not a reputable company.

    The other very important thing is that, upon having the mistake pointed out, a reputable company would also change the price listed on their web site.  I'll be surprised if Zenimax promptly changes the ESO Plus page wording to explicitly specify that Summerset isn't included, but if they do, I'll recant my claims that they were intentionally trying to mislead people.
    Gdemami
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 4,612
    edited August 2018
    Summerset and Morrowind are defined as Chapters, not DLC game packs.

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    You can see it there.

    Morrowind is included with the base game purchase now. It has nothing to do with being a ESO Plus member.
    Gdemami
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,662
    I paid $10 for it, I wont pay anymore...its a pretty world but a pretty lousy game...The combat is just boring as can be and I dont like the scaling world.
    Gorwe
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    Summerset and Morrowind are defined as Chapters, not DLC game packs.

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    You can see it there.

    Morrowind is included with the base game purchase now. It has nothing to do with being a ESO Plus member.
    If Morrowind is included with the base game purchase, then why does it cost 3500 crowns in the crown store?
    Gdemami
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 4,612
    Quizzical said:
    Summerset and Morrowind are defined as Chapters, not DLC game packs.

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    You can see it there.

    Morrowind is included with the base game purchase now. It has nothing to do with being a ESO Plus member.
    If Morrowind is included with the base game purchase, then why does it cost 3500 crowns in the crown store?
    It's not retroactive for purchases of the base game before the change.

    The info about it is here:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/26355
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760
    Quizzical said: I
    Summerset and Morrowind are defined as Chapters, not DLC game packs.

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    You can see it there.

    Morrowind is included with the base game purchase now. It has nothing to do with being a ESO Plus member.
    If Morrowind is included with the base game purchase, then why does it cost 3500 crowns in the crown store?
    So people that didn't buy it can buy it.  

    I've got the straight edge.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,503
    Quizzical said:
    Summerset and Morrowind are defined as Chapters, not DLC game packs.

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    You can see it there.

    Morrowind is included with the base game purchase now. It has nothing to do with being a ESO Plus member.
    If Morrowind is included with the base game purchase, then why does it cost 3500 crowns in the crown store?
    It's not retroactive for purchases of the base game before the change.

    The info about it is here:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/26355
    From your link:

    "Soon, the Morrowind zone and story content will be available for purchase in the Crown Store and be accessible to all ESO Plus members."

    So basically, the game's business model is messy enough that no one actually knows what it is.
    IselinRidelynnMendelGdemami
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 4,612
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    Summerset and Morrowind are defined as Chapters, not DLC game packs.

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates

    You can see it there.

    Morrowind is included with the base game purchase now. It has nothing to do with being a ESO Plus member.
    If Morrowind is included with the base game purchase, then why does it cost 3500 crowns in the crown store?
    It's not retroactive for purchases of the base game before the change.

    The info about it is here:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/26355
    From your link:

    "Soon, the Morrowind zone and story content will be available for purchase in the Crown Store and be accessible to all ESO Plus members."

    So basically, the game's business model is messy enough that no one actually knows what it is.
    I missed that bit. It is a bit messy, I agree.

    If you buy any version of the game now, Morrowind is included.

    If you bought the base game before that change, Morrowind is included with ESO Plus.. but not the Warden class.

    Kind of a punch in the face for people who paid full price for Morrowind and confusing for returning players.
    YashaX
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,103

    If you buy any version of the game now, Morrowind is included.


    Still, to this day, it totally depends on which approved ESO retailer you buy it from (see sticky in this forum for official ZOS approved list.)

    Amazon, Greenman Gaming and many others still sell pre- Summerset editions that do not include Morrowind.

    I think Steam and the ZOS store sell only new editions that do include it but I'm not even 100% sure about that.
    Gorwe
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 7,831
    edited August 2018
    They never lied. You have two types of content additions in ESO:

    1) DLC. Those are included in ESO +.

    2) Expansions. Those have to be purchased like for every other game. Expansions usually add new skill lines and/or new classes and/or crafting skills too in addition of massive amounts of landmass and quests.

    Old expansions may eventually be included in the base subscription aka ESO+. Like WoW, actually... same system.
    Gdemami
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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