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Bad first impressions

QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,990
I had a look at ESO around when it launched.  At the time, the web site basically said, here's how to buy the game, but we're not going to tell you anything about it.  It had scarcely more than some of those game sites that make you wonder if it's a scam to try to get your personal information and there isn't an actual game.  So I ignored it.

So I checked back recently and their web site was much more fleshed out.  So are the fan sites.  It looks like fextralife is the main wiki for the game, though it's not always easy to tell, as so many sites are inclined to create a wiki, make about ten pages for it, and quit, and search engines can't necessarily filter that garbage out.  I spent several hours looking through it and thought it looked like the game could be pretty good.  So I tried it.

The ESO Plus subscription advertises "Full access to all DLC game packs".  That's a direct copy and paste from the site, and the bolded text is bold on their web site, not my own emphasis.  There is fine print that explains, "Access to DLC game packs available in the Crown Store and character progression bonuses available for the duration of membership. Any progress made using the progression bonuses during the time of membership will remain."  So I assumed that if I buy the game and subscribe, I get access to all of the content.

Wrong.  Apparently ESO Plus gives you access to some content and not others.  The game is constantly nagging me to pay another $30 to buy Summerset, because that isn't included with a subscription, nor with the base game.  It started the first time I logged in, before I even got to character creation.  If their goal was to make people who just bought the game feel scammed even before reaching character creation, then mission accomplished.  This is the stuff that class action lawsuits are made of.

You know how a lot of games have some EULA with many pages worth of legalese that you're supposed to ignore and click "I agree"?  ESO has about four or five separate ones, and you have to scroll down and then click to agree separately to each of them.  I don't recall ever seeing any other software or service with more than two.

The game also takes a very long time to load.  Now, a lot of games take a while to load.  But ESO takes a long time to load the login screen.  Then you log in and it takes a long time to get you to the character choice screen.  Then you choose your character and it takes a long time to load the game world itself.  I can understand taking a long time at one stage of loading, but not three.  That's just sloppy design.

Eventually, I made it into the game.  You know how some games have some weird key combination to make the UI vanish so that you can take a screenshot?  ESO apparently decided that the entire game should be like that.  You just have to know ahead of time which key combinations do what and then maybe eventually you can play.

Now, it is possible to dig through the settings and make a UI appear.  You can have health bars and skill bars and numbers and so forth, so that you can tell what's going on in the underlying mechanics, and not just, I hit that mob and have no idea how much effect it had.  It's just not there by default for some inexplicable reason.

Or at least, you can make a lot of stuff appear.  I haven't yet figured out how to make the top bar not disappear most of the time.  I haven't figured out how to get a mini-map.  It took me a long time to figure out that you could open a map and it would tell you where to go, but it's a nuisance to have to cover up the normal game in order to see where to go, rather than having to wander around the zone aimlessly hoping to stumble across what a quest asked me to find.  I also haven't figured out how to turn off the voice overs, as I have no idea why someone thought it was a good idea to have NPCs read the quest text to you very slowly and in small chunks.

And I still have no idea how I'm supposed to find quests.  I've found a couple by stumbling across an NPC who offered a quest.  But while a lot of games have quest markers, it sure looks like ESO doesn't.  It has quest hubs, to be sure.  Maybe there's some way to make some UI stuff appear so that you can find all of the quests in a minute, rather than spending ten minutes fishing through the wiki, or half an hour wandering around clicking on things until I've found most of the quests but missed a couple.

But perhaps the fundamental reason why I'm lost is that the game simply doesn't have a tutorial.  It has a handful of tooltips that say to press this or that key to do something.  Most of the tooltips are wrong because they don't realize that I'm using a gamepad so I've had to remap controls, but at least they say what functionality I'm supposed to find, and then I can go searching through the keybinds to figure out what I need.  And there aren't very many of those tooltips, either.  There are certainly fewer than a lot of other games would have even if you completely excluded the game's tutorial from the tooltip count.

So thus far, I've played for about three hours.  Probably less than ten minutes of that was in combat.  Most of the rest was running back and forth trying to figure out what to do.  That would be a fine ratio for a game like Uncharted Waters Online that isn't primarily about combat.  But from the wiki, it sure looks like ESO is supposed to be a mostly combat game, as the main non-combat activities are there to either make you better at combat or lead to combat.

It's still plausible that the game might be pretty good.  I haven't found anything to contradict the things that looked potentially good on the game's site and wiki.  My main concern before trying the game was that the controls could be awkward, and that seems to be fine.  Most games are awkward at first because I use a gamepad, and it takes a while to figure out which controls matter for the game and which don't and map the gamepad appropriately.  ESO seems to be better than average in this regard.

But there's a learning curve, as the game does some unorthodox things.  I'd never seen anything like the game's stamina/magicka split, and their skill point system is certainly unusual.  Having a learning curve isn't necessarily bad, as innovative game mechanics will usually cause one.   The problem is that Zenimax doesn't seem to care to do anything to smooth that learning curve.  That can't possibly be good for player retention.  Most players won't spend several hours reading up on a game before trying it; if I hadn't done so, I'd probably have quit in frustration by now.  Now that the game has been out for more than four years, maybe they should find time to make the new player experience a little friendlier.
PpiperMikehaPeskyPhrySamhaelGdemamiMalindaTheStrangemikeb0817Taneonsamiiand 3 others.
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Comments

  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 495
    Garbage game = garbage new player experience, good tutorial or no.  You're not missing anything.
    MikehaSamhaelRueTheWhirlVerenathsumdumguy1
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,871
    edited August 2018
    Hmm there really isnt much of a learning curve with ESO , pretty simplistic game tbh , you should have most things figured out in a day or 2 , as far as it systems go , then its just a matter of settling into a build you are comfortable with , Plenty of guides online to help with that ...Really no need to split on build for ex.. go full Stam Nightblade and you can solo almost the entire game
    Phry
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,257
    There are UI mods to have the common elements always present.

    There is no mini-map. There is a mod for one though.

    Quests are icons on the map. You'll see a bunch of icons on the map, go to one and thats your quest. And once again, there are mods to make this more apparent.

    And, yeah, the new player experience is horrible for ESO. They can do things the "Elder Scrolls" way all they want and thats fine but at least put in a tutorial to help people get acquainted with it. I guess they figured everyone in the world has played Skyrim at this point and will already be familiar with it.
    MalindaTheStrange
  • KellerKeller Member UncommonPosts: 602
    Scorchien said:
    Hmm there really isnt much of a learning curve with ESO , pretty simplistic game tbh , you should have most things figured out in a day or 2 , as far as it systems go , then its just a matter of settling into a build you are comfortable with , Plenty of guides online to help with that ...Really no need to split on build for ex.. go full Stam Nightblade and you can solo almost the entire game
    Plus there are only a few viable builds with mandatory rotations which will be thrown at you when doing a simple dungeon run and you don't do well on the dps meters.
    RueTheWhirlMalindaTheStrange
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    They use to start you off in a dungeon and did a simple tutorial that walked you through some things, now I think you start off in town and can do the starter dungeon or starter island introduction by talking to the person across the street leaning against a building.  It might tell you this in game but not very well as I stumbled across it after starting a new character and doing some quests in the city.

    Minion, program has a lot of ESO mods including a nice mini-map and quests mods that make it easier to follow quest lines. It also has a pretty good updater.  

    Overall ESO is not the best MMO I've played and it's not the worse either.  I can jump in and do a few dark anchors or open dungeons if I don't have much time to play or follow a lot of different quest-lines if I have a lot of time.

    When the game first launched it ran terribly and I didn't play it for over a year after launch until they got their act together some more.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 8,922
    edited August 2018
    Pay To Win 
    SlyLoKbcbullyMrMelGibsonmikeb0817klash2defDekahnArteriussumdumguy1mcrippinsCelcius
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,908
    Quizzical said:

    The ESO Plus subscription advertises "Full access to all DLC game packs".  That's a direct copy and paste from the site, and the bolded text is bold on their web site, not my own emphasis.  There is fine print that explains, "Access to DLC game packs available in the Crown Store and character progression bonuses available for the duration of membership. Any progress made using the progression bonuses during the time of membership will remain."  So I assumed that if I buy the game and subscribe, I get access to all of the content.

    Wrong.  Apparently ESO Plus gives you access to some content and not others.  The game is constantly nagging me to pay another $30 to buy Summerset, because that isn't included with a subscription, nor with the base game.  It started the first time I logged in, before I even got to character creation.  If their goal was to make people who just bought the game feel scammed even before reaching character creation, then mission accomplished.  This is the stuff that class action lawsuits are made of.


    I had a hearty nostalgic laugh at this bit.

    This happened a year and half ago when they added Morrowind. They decided that the all inclusive ESO+ was too good of a deal so they called Morrowind a "Chapter" to differentiate it from the other DLC that are included and charged everyone extra for it.

    They then institutionalized that system and made it a yearly thing and along came Summerset this year while they simultaneously demoted last year's Morrowind to included DLC status.

    There were some of us that were very pissed off by that change of monetization model that was hidden behind all the "We're going to Morrowind. Ain't that just so cool!" hype. But boy was I ever loudly shouted down by many here (including some staff) when I pointed that out.

    Everything else you talk about is just beginner growing pains - and you're right, ESO's new player experience is very lacking despite some efforts last year to include new things like level-up advisors - but if you're going to enjoy ESO it'll be because you can ignore some of their institutional obnoxiousness about monetization - something they just recently doubled down when they decided to use the new daily log-in rewards as an excuse to splash nearly full-screen ads at you every day. And those ads don't discriminate: you'll see them whether you have the bare bones game or sub or already own the content they're pushing. But there is an ad-on that makes those ads disappear.

    Here... save yourself some googling and look at a beginner guide by someone who knows the game well and what he's talking about: 

    https://alcasthq.com/eso-new-player-beginner-guide/

    And this add on manager will let you customize your UI and other things easily with no fuss: 

    https://www.minion.gg/



    Lokero
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,990
    edited August 2018
    Xiaoki said:
    There are UI mods to have the common elements always present.

    There is no mini-map. There is a mod for one though.

    Quests are icons on the map. You'll see a bunch of icons on the map, go to one and thats your quest. And once again, there are mods to make this more apparent.

    And, yeah, the new player experience is horrible for ESO. They can do things the "Elder Scrolls" way all they want and thats fine but at least put in a tutorial to help people get acquainted with it. I guess they figured everyone in the world has played Skyrim at this point and will already be familiar with it.
    After I get a quest, it makes icons appear on a map of where to go to do the quest.  Sometimes.  If the quest is sending me to a different zone from the map I'm in, it doesn't give me icons on the map.  But that's manageable.  The bigger problem is finding the quests in the first place, and no icons appear on the map for that.  There are icons over an NPC head or whatever, but you have to find the NPC first.

    You mention UI mods.  Are they going the Vanilla WoW approach of, the base UI doesn't work, and you'll have to find mods to fix it?
    Gdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,990
    Mikeha said:
    Pay To Win 
    I don't have a problem with paying for a game I like.  I do have a huge problem with the false advertising, though.  The problem is that they advertise that if you pay $x, you get Y and Z.  Then you pay $x and get Y, but they say no, you have to pay more money to get Z.
    Gdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,990
    They use to start you off in a dungeon and did a simple tutorial that walked you through some things, now I think you start off in town and can do the starter dungeon or starter island introduction by talking to the person across the street leaning against a building.  It might tell you this in game but not very well as I stumbled across it after starting a new character and doing some quests in the city.

    Minion, program has a lot of ESO mods including a nice mini-map and quests mods that make it easier to follow quest lines. It also has a pretty good updater.  

    Overall ESO is not the best MMO I've played and it's not the worse either.  I can jump in and do a few dark anchors or open dungeons if I don't have much time to play or follow a lot of different quest-lines if I have a lot of time.

    When the game first launched it ran terribly and I didn't play it for over a year after launch until they got their act together some more.
    I'm getting about 70 frames per second at graphical settings I like.  That's not ideal, but it feels intuitively smooth.  Still, that's on massively faster hardware than existed when the game launched, as I have a Ryzen 7 2700X and a Vega 64.

    Now you start out sitting in a chair where you're about to be shipwrecked by Dark Elf slavers.  It took me several minutes to figure out that I was supposed to get up out of the chair and move, as the lack of a UI made me think it was a loading screen.  You do one quest to get off of the island and then it drops you into Vvardenfell in a small town that, as best as I can tell, only has one quest to offer you.
    Gdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,990
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:

    The ESO Plus subscription advertises "Full access to all DLC game packs".  That's a direct copy and paste from the site, and the bolded text is bold on their web site, not my own emphasis.  There is fine print that explains, "Access to DLC game packs available in the Crown Store and character progression bonuses available for the duration of membership. Any progress made using the progression bonuses during the time of membership will remain."  So I assumed that if I buy the game and subscribe, I get access to all of the content.

    Wrong.  Apparently ESO Plus gives you access to some content and not others.  The game is constantly nagging me to pay another $30 to buy Summerset, because that isn't included with a subscription, nor with the base game.  It started the first time I logged in, before I even got to character creation.  If their goal was to make people who just bought the game feel scammed even before reaching character creation, then mission accomplished.  This is the stuff that class action lawsuits are made of.


    I had a hearty nostalgic laugh at this bit.

    This happened a year and half ago when they added Morrowind. They decided that the all inclusive ESO+ was too good of a deal so they called Morrowind a "Chapter" to differentiate it from the other DLC that are included and charged everyone extra for it.

    They then institutionalized that system and made it a yearly thing and along came Summerset this year while they simultaneously demoted last year's Morrowind to included DLC status.

    There were some of us that were very pissed off by that change of monetization model that was hidden behind all the "We're going to Morrowind. Ain't that just so cool!" hype. But boy was I ever loudly shouted down by many here (including some staff) when I pointed that out.

    Everything else you talk about is just beginner growing pains - and you're right, ESO's new player experience is very lacking despite some efforts last year to include new things like level-up advisors - but if you're going to enjoy ESO it'll be because you can ignore some of their institutional obnoxiousness about monetization - something they just recently doubled down when they decided to use the new daily log-in rewards as an excuse to splash nearly full-screen ads at you every day. And those ads don't discriminate: you'll see them whether you have the bare bones game or sub or already own the content they're pushing. But there is an ad-on that makes those ads disappear.

    Here... save yourself some googling and look at a beginner guide by someone who knows the game well and what he's talking about: 

    https://alcasthq.com/eso-new-player-beginner-guide/

    And this add on manager will let you customize your UI and other things easily with no fuss: 

    https://www.minion.gg/
    Thank you for the links.  I don't like for games to need external add-ons, as I'm sure people end up getting malware that way.  But if there is anything Skyrim is known for, it's having a ton of add-ons, so I suppose I can't really expect Zenimax to move away from that.

    My complaint is not about the business model in itself so much as the false advertising.  They advertise that if you buy ESO Plus, you get all of the content.  Then after you buy it, they say no, you don't actually get all of the content.  You have to pay more to get the rest of the content.  That's got to be illegal.  If it isn't, it certainly should be.  Do we need to complain to the FTC about this?
    MikehaPhryGdemami
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,908
    Quizzical said:
    They use to start you off in a dungeon and did a simple tutorial that walked you through some things, now I think you start off in town and can do the starter dungeon or starter island introduction by talking to the person across the street leaning against a building.  It might tell you this in game but not very well as I stumbled across it after starting a new character and doing some quests in the city.

    Minion, program has a lot of ESO mods including a nice mini-map and quests mods that make it easier to follow quest lines. It also has a pretty good updater.  

    Overall ESO is not the best MMO I've played and it's not the worse either.  I can jump in and do a few dark anchors or open dungeons if I don't have much time to play or follow a lot of different quest-lines if I have a lot of time.

    When the game first launched it ran terribly and I didn't play it for over a year after launch until they got their act together some more.
    I'm getting about 70 frames per second at graphical settings I like.  That's not ideal, but it feels intuitively smooth.  Still, that's on massively faster hardware than existed when the game launched, as I have a Ryzen 7 2700X and a Vega 64.

    Now you start out sitting in a chair where you're about to be shipwrecked by Dark Elf slavers.  It took me several minutes to figure out that I was supposed to get up out of the chair and move, as the lack of a UI made me think it was a loading screen.  You do one quest to get off of the island and then it drops you into Vvardenfell in a small town that, as best as I can tell, only has one quest to offer you.
    With Vvanderfell ZOS in their wisdom, started adding new tutorial to every chapter: if you owned Summerset you would have started in that new tutorial instead and had been deposited in that island after.

    Leaving aside the merits (or lack thereof) of that decision, the vanilla tutorial is still the best way to start the game because it leads you by the hand and drops you in one of the smaller original starter islands post-tutorial.

    The best thing you can do is go to that first wayshrine you run into in Vvardenfell and port over to your chosen alliance's starter city:

    • Daggerfall in the Glenumbra Zone for the Daggerfall Covenant
    • Vulkhel Guard in the Auridon Zone for Aldmeri Dominion
    • Davon’s Watch in the Stonefalls Zone for Ebonheart Pact
    As soon as you get there you will be approached by someone talking about a benefactor. Follow that quest and this will lead to the original tutorial that will in turn lead to the starter island for your alliance.

    Those starter areas have more and easier to follow traditional themepark breadcrumbs.

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760
    There's an option when you create a character to do the tutorial or not.  
    As far as quests.  The black upside down triangles above people's heads show you who has a quest to give.  The triangles also show up on your compass.  When you complete or track a quest the triangle turns white.

    I've got the straight edge.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,908
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:

    The ESO Plus subscription advertises "Full access to all DLC game packs".  That's a direct copy and paste from the site, and the bolded text is bold on their web site, not my own emphasis.  There is fine print that explains, "Access to DLC game packs available in the Crown Store and character progression bonuses available for the duration of membership. Any progress made using the progression bonuses during the time of membership will remain."  So I assumed that if I buy the game and subscribe, I get access to all of the content.

    Wrong.  Apparently ESO Plus gives you access to some content and not others.  The game is constantly nagging me to pay another $30 to buy Summerset, because that isn't included with a subscription, nor with the base game.  It started the first time I logged in, before I even got to character creation.  If their goal was to make people who just bought the game feel scammed even before reaching character creation, then mission accomplished.  This is the stuff that class action lawsuits are made of.


    I had a hearty nostalgic laugh at this bit.

    This happened a year and half ago when they added Morrowind. They decided that the all inclusive ESO+ was too good of a deal so they called Morrowind a "Chapter" to differentiate it from the other DLC that are included and charged everyone extra for it.

    They then institutionalized that system and made it a yearly thing and along came Summerset this year while they simultaneously demoted last year's Morrowind to included DLC status.

    There were some of us that were very pissed off by that change of monetization model that was hidden behind all the "We're going to Morrowind. Ain't that just so cool!" hype. But boy was I ever loudly shouted down by many here (including some staff) when I pointed that out.

    Everything else you talk about is just beginner growing pains - and you're right, ESO's new player experience is very lacking despite some efforts last year to include new things like level-up advisors - but if you're going to enjoy ESO it'll be because you can ignore some of their institutional obnoxiousness about monetization - something they just recently doubled down when they decided to use the new daily log-in rewards as an excuse to splash nearly full-screen ads at you every day. And those ads don't discriminate: you'll see them whether you have the bare bones game or sub or already own the content they're pushing. But there is an ad-on that makes those ads disappear.

    Here... save yourself some googling and look at a beginner guide by someone who knows the game well and what he's talking about: 

    https://alcasthq.com/eso-new-player-beginner-guide/

    And this add on manager will let you customize your UI and other things easily with no fuss: 

    https://www.minion.gg/
    Thank you for the links.  I don't like for games to need external add-ons, as I'm sure people end up getting malware that way.  But if there is anything Skyrim is known for, it's having a ton of add-ons, so I suppose I can't really expect Zenimax to move away from that.

    My complaint is not about the business model in itself so much as the false advertising.  They advertise that if you buy ESO Plus, you get all of the content.  Then after you buy it, they say no, you don't actually get all of the content.  You have to pay more to get the rest of the content.  That's got to be illegal.  If it isn't, it certainly should be.  Do we need to complain to the FTC about this?
    They get away with it by the traditional double whammy of asterisks and semantics. In their marketing universe Chapters are not "DLC game packs" despite the fact that they walk and talk just like DLC game packs. And TBH, they are sort of supercharged DLCs in that they bundle together a bit more than a normal DLC contains. Problem is that before they came up with this new lingo and scheme, some of the older DLC game packs were just as big, feature and content wise as these new "chapters" are.

    Personally I have too much self respect to play along with their bullshit. What they have in fact done is carved out one of the 4 yearly DLC as not included with the sub and charge extra for it. They should have the balls to clearly reflect that in their ads instead of relying on the "chapter" semantics to surprise you after the fact... as clearly happened to you.

    But hey, someone got mad at me here just a couple of months ago when I called Summerset a DLC. The power is in that Kool-Aid  :)
    Gdemami
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,908
    El-Hefe said:
    There's an option when you create a character to do the tutorial or not.  
    As far as quests.  The black upside down triangles above people's heads show you who has a quest to give.  The triangles also show up on your compass.  When you complete or track a quest the triangle turns white.
    You only get the option to skip the tutorial if you have already done it before on another character.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,990
    After some reflection, the false advertising side of this really doesn't sit well with me.  I can understand making claims of what you expect to deliver, and then being unable to do so.  Pre-orders have that all the time.  I can understand making statements of opinion that most people would disagree with.  But knowingly and brazenly lying in factual matters about a completed product where you already know exactly what you're going to deliver and that your claims are complete lies is very different from that.

    I've just submitted a support ticket on their site:

    -------------------------------------------------------

    I bought the game and ESO Plus yesterday, expecting that it would give me access to all DLC packs in the game.  This belief was based on your web site's explanation:


    Your site explicitly says that ESO Plus members get "Full access to all DLC game packs".  Only after I paid for the game and played it for a bit could I see that the Summerset DLC game pack wasn't enabled on my account as promised.  I tried to use a jewelery station and got an error message that said that I could not because Summerset wasn't enabled.

    From asking around on other forums, it sounds like it is intentional that the Summerset DLC game pack isn't included with ESO Plus and the claims on your site are simply wrong.  That means that that getting access to all DLC game packs in addition to the base game would now cost $65 rather than $35.  That is not what I paid for, and I would not have bought the game if I had known that the listed price on your site for what I attempted to buy was inaccurate by such a large margin.

    What I want is either one of two things:

    1)  You honor the terms of the advertisement on your own web site and enable Summerset on my account for the duration of my subscription as promised, or
    2)  You refund my money in full and cancel my account.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    If they do either one of those things, I'll be satisfied.  And if they don't, then I have to decide whether to just deal with it or to go the credit card chargeback and FTC complaint route.  I've had my current credit card for more than 11 years and only done one chargeback in that time.  I've never done a chargeback for computer games.  But then, I don't regard "the game isn't as fun as I hoped" as being valid grounds for a chargeback.

    Part of the problem is that, if they'll violate one promise on what you get, what stops them from doing so again in the future?  They said that it costs $35 to get X, and then after I paid $35, they said, no, you have to pay an additional $30 to get X.  If I paid an additional $30, I have little confidence that they'd then deliver what they promised after they didn't for the original $35.

    There are plenty of scams that ask for you to pay ever escalating amounts of money for what they promise will eventually give you what you wanted.  The hope of the scammers is that, after you've already paid some amount, you'll be so unwilling to write that off as a loss that you'll keep paying more in hopes of eventually getting what you wanted.  If the game isn't a scam, they sure seem to be trying awfully hard to package it like one.

    For what it's worth, if they check my account, I'm right near a jewelery station, the error message I mentioned is real, and I really did log off within minutes of seeing that error message.  While I had some inkling earlier that Summerset might not be enabled as promised, that was the first conclusive proof I had that it wasn't.  I have not logged into the game since then.

    Right about now, I'm very glad that I didn't buy the game through Steam.  A chargeback generally means an account ban.  If my Steam account gets banned, then I lose access to other games, too.  I had never done business with Zenimax before, so they have nothing else to ban me from.  Even so, it's likely that Steam would have refunded my money even if Zenimax refused.

    Or who knows?  Maybe they'll decide that $35 plus the potential for future purchases is more than $0 and decide to honor the promise on their web site and enable Summerset on my account.  I'll know that they won't do that for future purchases, but if I know the terms of the sale ahead of time, it's not scam.
    gervaise1GdemamiCelcius
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,908
    @Quizzical

    Just out of curiosity, where did you buy it? 

    I ask because I just took a look at their official store page which I haven't looked at in a while  (https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/store) and I see different editions, a couple of them called "Summerset" editions and one called Standard


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760
    Summerset is clearly listed as a chapter and not a dlc pack.  Good luck man.  If 1/30th of the quests in the game are that important to you then get your money back and move on.  The game is huge why not play it and wait until the next chapter comes out.  At which time summer set will be included with eso plus membership.

    I've got the straight edge.

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,619
    I don't understand this thread... Purchasing Summerset gets you the entire game minus the smaller DLC.

    Purchasing the standard gives you the base game and not Morrowind or Summerset I do believe. 

    ESO Plus gives you the smaller DLC and Orsinium. Morrowind may be included in that now I'm not sure.

    Everything is user error it seems.


    Gdemamiklash2defArterius
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,908
    SlyLoK said:

    ESO Plus gives you the smaller DLC and Orsinium. Morrowind may be included in that now I'm not sure.


    You get the Vvanderfell zone but not the Warden class - that's still extra.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,990
    Iselin said:
    @Quizzical

    Just out of curiosity, where did you buy it? 

    I ask because I just took a look at their official store page which I haven't looked at in a while  (https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/store) and I see different editions, a couple of them called "Summerset" editions and one called Standard
    I bought it from the ESO web site.  And yes, I saw those various editions.

    My understanding from reading their site was that it was a model akin to Wizard 101.  You can either buy content piecemeal and retain access forever, or you could subscribe and get access to all of the content for the duration of their subscription, then lose access to all of the DLC game packs if you cancel your subscription.  That's why it would make sense to have options that give more DLC than the standard edition:  for people who weren't going to subscribe.  Note the difference between the Summerset edition and the "Elder Scrolls Online Collection":  the latter includes more DLC game packs than the former.

    I think that their attempted fig leaf of legality is that in some but not all of the places that they say "all DLC game packs", they specify "in the crown store".  Apparently Summerset isn't in the crown store.  But someone who has never played the game wouldn't know the complete list of DLC packs.  Even if he looked at the crown store and saw the DLC packs listed, he probably wouldn't know that some of the DLC packs aren't there.  That is at best an arcane technicality, and I don't think anyone could argue with a straight face that they weren't trying to very strongly imply that you get all DLC game packs period--something that they knew to be completely false.

    I did several hours of reading up on the game before making the purchase.  It's one thing to chastise people for not doing their due diligence before buying a game.  But the phrasing "due diligence" surely means that there is some notion of undue diligence, and that's what it would have taken to figure out that they meant that you get some DLC, but not Summerset.

    If they had explicitly said that ESO Plus doesn't give you Summerset, I would have no problem with it.  I would likewise have no problem with it if a game charged $100/month to play, so long as it was clearly labeled.  I'd probably just look at the price tag and pass.  But I don't like being lied to.

    That was a major factor in why I canceled Comcast several years ago:  the Comcast representative told me to my face that after the introductory offer was over, the price would only go up by something like $5/month.  The contract said it was more like $30/month.  I saw that in the contract before signing it, and it was clearly stated in the fine print, which is more than you can say for the ESO Plus debacle.  But I still didn't like being lied to, and it was a consideration when I switched ISPs after the introductory rate was over.
    PhryGdemami
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Quizzical said:
    Xiaoki said:
    There are UI mods to have the common elements always present.

    There is no mini-map. There is a mod for one though.

    Quests are icons on the map. You'll see a bunch of icons on the map, go to one and thats your quest. And once again, there are mods to make this more apparent.

    And, yeah, the new player experience is horrible for ESO. They can do things the "Elder Scrolls" way all they want and thats fine but at least put in a tutorial to help people get acquainted with it. I guess they figured everyone in the world has played Skyrim at this point and will already be familiar with it.
    After I get a quest, it makes icons appear on a map of where to go to do the quest.  Sometimes.  If the quest is sending me to a different zone from the map I'm in, it doesn't give me icons on the map.  But that's manageable.  The bigger problem is finding the quests in the first place, and no icons appear on the map for that.  There are icons over an NPC head or whatever, but you have to find the NPC first.

    You mention UI mods.  Are they going the Vanilla WoW approach of, the base UI doesn't work, and you'll have to find mods to fix it?
    It's what Skyrim and their other RPGs were all about.  The games launch as buggy as hell and the modding community would step in and fix most of the problems.  If ESO had seen this and supported the modding community more forcefully it would have been a much better game. 

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,990
    edited August 2018
    SlyLoK said:
    I don't understand this thread... Purchasing Summerset gets you the entire game minus the smaller DLC.

    Purchasing the standard gives you the base game and not Morrowind or Summerset I do believe. 

    ESO Plus gives you the smaller DLC and Orsinium. Morrowind may be included in that now I'm not sure.

    Everything is user error it seems.
    Purchasing the standard edition and also ESO Plus gives you the base game and several DLC game packs, including Morrowind but not Summerset.  The problem is that their site promised that ESO Plus gets you access to all of the DLC game packs.  It doesn't quite explicitly state that you get Summerset, too, but it does very strongly imply it if you don't already know from other sources that it doesn't.  Maybe a veteran player would know that, but someone new to the game probably wouldn't, and people buying the game for the first time are by definition the latter.

    That's not user error.  That's false advertising.  There is a difference.

    The false advertising is only one of the reasons that the game gave me a bad first impression.  That the new player experience is so egregiously awful in a lot of different ways is why I created this thread.  The nearest comparison that I can think of where another MMORPG just dumped me into the game world with no guidance on what to do was Trove, and even that was due to an outright bug where high game window resolutions make nearly all text vanish--including the tutorial text that would have explained what to do.  With ESO, the lack of a tutorial seems to be intentional.
    PhryGdemamiMalindaTheStrangeURMAKER
  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760
    edited August 2018
    @Quizzical you made almost 20,000 posts on this site.  I don't think yur stupid.  But c'mon man.  You're either trolling or your drunk or high or both.  Because this thread is getting pretty ridiculous.  Unless you really are that stupid.  Ask for your money back if feel ripped off.  If not, then dont.
    YashaXMalindaTheStrange

    I've got the straight edge.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,908
    Quizzical said:

    I think that their attempted fig leaf of legality is that in some but not all of the places that they say "all DLC game packs", they specify "in the crown store".  Apparently Summerset isn't in the crown store.  But someone who has never played the game wouldn't know the complete list of DLC packs.  
    I think that's your strongest argument and a good point.

    Those of us who have been following the bouncing ball all along have heard all their prevarications and know how they use the term "chapter" and why it's not included in the crown store (so that we can't use our accumulation of 1500 crowns per month from ESO+ to get it without coughing up additional new money) but for someone who isn't up to date with ZOS speak they should explicitly state what parts of the game are excluded from ESO+.
    QuizzicalPhryGdemami
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
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