The major reason MMOs like WoW and LOTRO (as two examples) don't work for an "MMO"RPG

TheScavenger

They are designed with a solo only player in mind. You do quests, and (if you read the quest text, but it even happens when its voiced) its almost always about YOU and not the group or multiple people. On top of that, as an example of another problem, in WoW there are many cutscenes that don't even involve the player despite that your character is supposed to be there right in the same room or area (anduin entering lordaeron throneroom for example and the burning of the world tree).

They are so focused on being singleplayer games, they have forgotten the entirety of the MMO part of MMORPG. 

Now of course being solo is not a problem...the singleplayer part obviously is. When you are in a group and it only talks about YOUR character and not everyone else in the group...thats a major design flaw in the design of the game. Even worse is when your character doesn't even appear in the cutscene like your character doesn't even exist which is terrible design.

I think one issue is that MMOs that focus on the character being a hero find the problem that no one really wants to be a hero if everyone is a hero so in almost every quest they make it about YOU and not the group...a simple fix to that is make your character a peasant...most people are tired of playing heroes anyway in 99% of every game ever in every genre ever. Make it like rimworld...your just another character that is being sent to the meat making factory. Your only purpose is to survive and die to be replaced. But that in fact makes it easier to tell a story about a group, than just a solo player because in that game (while its singleplayer) its about all the characters surviving and their interactions with each other

Or do it like GW2...everyone is technically always grouped with each other. But even then, it still has the issue that the story parts of the game are singleplayer and not group focused (at least the ones I saw).

Again, as I said above...soloing should be a viable part of gameplay. But the MMOs that are heavily story focused forget about the grouping part of the game and turn it into a singleplayer game...which in an MMO is different than just soloing.

Moirae

Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it. 

TheScavenger

Moirae said:

Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it. 

Didn't read the thread, now you look like a fool

Theocritus

Judging by its popularity, I think WoW gave the people what they wanted.

TheScavenger

Theocritus said:

Judging by its popularity, I think WoW gave the people what they wanted.

Well as I said...soloing is fine. But whenever you are in a group, all the quests and cinematics and pretty much the entire game is either your character isn't involved at all or it only focuses on YOUR character and not the group.

So the game completely either forgets all the player characters, your own character or doesn't even regard your group at all or a mix of any of those

iixviiiix

They are good games , so they sell well .

Not fan of them though . Even if they are go F2P (LOTRO f2p ?), i don't think i bore to download them in first place .

TheScavenger

They are designed with a solo only player in mind. You do quests, and (if you read the quest text, but it even happens when its voiced) its almost always about YOU and not the group or multiple people. On top of that, as an example of another problem, in WoW there are many cutscenes that don't even involve the player despite that your character is supposed to be there right in the same room or area (anduin entering lordaeron throneroom for example and the burning of the world tree). 

Which is a problem if the person decides to group to do quests or do any instance that requires grouping...the story is still about YOU and not the group that just did that instance or story. It doesn't even 1% take into consideration there are others involved, just YOU. 

Even worse are cinematics where your character is obviously there but not there in the cinematic or anywhere to be seen at all.

MrMelGibson

TheScavenger said:

They are designed with a solo only player in mind. You do quests, and (if you read the quest text, but it even happens when its voiced) its almost always about YOU and not the group or multiple people. On top of that, as an example of another problem, in WoW there are many cutscenes that don't even involve the player despite that your character is supposed to be there right in the same room or area (anduin entering lordaeron throneroom for example and the burning of the world tree). 

Which is a problem if the person decides to group to do quests or do any instance that requires grouping...the story is still about YOU and not the group that just did that instance or story. It doesn't even 1% take into consideration there are others involved, just YOU. 

Even worse are cinematics where your character is obviously there but not there in the cinematic or anywhere to be seen at all.

Maybe you should play SWTOR. It not only shows the group in cutscenes, but let's everyone get a choice of which direction to take the story.  While many mmos are more solo friendly, almost all require grouping for most endgame content.  Your point is only valid for the leveling process.

TheScavenger

MrMelGibson said:

TheScavenger said:

They are designed with a solo only player in mind. You do quests, and (if you read the quest text, but it even happens when its voiced) its almost always about YOU and not the group or multiple people. On top of that, as an example of another problem, in WoW there are many cutscenes that don't even involve the player despite that your character is supposed to be there right in the same room or area (anduin entering lordaeron throneroom for example and the burning of the world tree). 

Which is a problem if the person decides to group to do quests or do any instance that requires grouping...the story is still about YOU and not the group that just did that instance or story. It doesn't even 1% take into consideration there are others involved, just YOU. 

Even worse are cinematics where your character is obviously there but not there in the cinematic or anywhere to be seen at all.

Maybe you should play SWTOR. It not only shows the group in cutscenes, but let's everyone get a choice of which direction to take the story.  While many mmos are more solo friendly, almost all require grouping for most endgame content.  Your point is only valid for the leveling process.

SWTOR is the single only story focused MMO that is an amazing example of what this thread is talking about. The group as you say, decides direction of the story AND the story involves the group and it even shows the group in the story (as you said). I think its the only MMO that is story based that actually does it.

And I've done some endgame content in WoW. But it didn't do it like SWTOR and it still was in the end focused on YOU ...or didn't even show a single actual player at all like SWTOR would have done (but then SWTOR would still have shown the whole group).

SWTOR is the only MMO that is story focused that also does amazing story telling through group focused gameplay (but can still be done solo if the person wanted to)

AlBQuirky

Moirae said:

Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it. 

That's the thing, isn't it? MMOs are "Massively Multiplayer" games. The choice comes when one installs the "Massively Multiplayer" game on their "entertainment device" (PCs, consoles, mobiles).

Would you "expect" a wonderful single player experience in PUBG or Fortnite?  There are tons of single player games (RPG, ARPG, FPS, TPS, RTS, TBS, etc) that do "single player" better than any multiplayer game ever will. Why? They're built that way from the very foundation.

It's tough for me to wrap my head around a player thinking, "I want to play a single player game." and then clicking that MMO launcher. I do understand that some IPs in the MMO genre are good, but many already have single player games available, too.

"The Choice" should come not within the game, but rather before the player clicks that launcher, right?

Now, to reiterate, I agree that solo activities should be available, but there is a difference between doing things solo while interacting with others and ignoring all the other players as if they don't exist. I think that all MMOs (I have not played them all) have grouping available, but some entice grouping better than others.

@TheScavenger has a good point that even within a group, the quest dialogue is about one player, not the group. That is a single player foundation, in my mind.

It's kind of sad that @Theocritus is right that WoW gives players what they want, and what that seems to be is a solo experience in an MMO, with the obvious exception of raids. Where is the logic here?

I'm not a proponent of "forced grouping" where a player must be in a group from when they set foot in the starting zone all the way through to the end game in order to survive, but isn't there a happy medium here? Players do not need to be in a group to interact with others. Sometimes, grouping can limit the interaction to 4 to 8 players only, shutting out all of the other players not in a specific group.

Maybe some "expectations" need to be adjusted? Single Player does not equate well to MMO, even though that seems to be what the majority of players desire. :shrug:

Po_gg

TheScavenger said:

They are designed with a solo only player in mind. 

That is quite an achievement, making a long post where the opening line is false already
(LotRO, I can't speak for wow, never liked it)

Don't confuse the current state, which comes -as others said above- from following the player demand, with the original design... and you can still see the original design, like in Book quests which are still using forced grouping, and the solo way is just a shoehorned option with a "god-mode" buff.

It was already discussed in a thread before about group vs. solo. LotRO still has most of its original grouping design (just most, some group skills were the victims of the trait tree change and a couple group quests in the open world were removed), and it's up to each player that they go solo or with group. I personally prefer group, but even I am against forced grouping... or forced anything. Giving options is always better than restricting any elements of the gameplay.

Kyleran

TheScavenger said:

Moirae said:

Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it. 

Didn't read the thread, now you look like a fool

Actually your title doesn't well reflect the point you are trying to make, so he's not the one who should feel foolish.

In fact, few responders are actually understanding your point at all, which is a general failure on your part to properly get it across in the OP.

TheScavenger

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Moirae said:

Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it. 

Didn't read the thread, now you look like a fool

Actually your title doesn't well reflect the point you are trying to make, so he's not the one who should feel foolish.

In fact, few responders are actually understanding your point at all, which is a general failure on your part to properly get it across in the OP.

For those that didn't read the first paragraph I guess

immodium

Po_gg said:

TheScavenger said:

They are designed with a solo only player in mind. 

That is quite an achievement, making a long post where the opening line is false already
(LotRO, I can't speak for wow, never liked it)

Don't confuse the current state, which comes -as others said above- from following the player demand, with the original design... and you can still see the original design, like in Book quests which are still using forced grouping, and the solo way is just a shoehorned option with a "god-mode" buff.

I remember first time leaving Bree and going to North Downs and Lonelands and remembering how group heavy the areas being.

It was rough as a solo player at launch.

Game was definitely not designed as a singleplayer game.

ConstantineMerus

2 easy steps to achieve reading comprehension:

1. Read
2. Comprehend 

You're welcome. 

FrodoFragins

solo friendly is not the same as solo focused.  EQ was designed for a small niche of players, which is partly why so many abandoned it when better designed games finally arrived.

Mikeha

Moirae said:

Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it. 

I totally agree and I was a Lineage 2 player which was a game designed around grouping. MMOs should give players the options to do everything whether its grinding, questing, grouping or soloing. 

Scorchien

 Hmm . i dunno man , smellin like a YOU thing to me , Ive been playing LOTRO all 11 years , and i gotta tell ya , 75% of my time im grouped , and the other 25% i am being asked to group , Now you are right there are different ways to play and approach these games , but you have to make the choice YOU have to solo or Group , get involved with Guild/Kin/community or be a loner .. The choice is yours , the content is there for both ..

Wizardry

Moirae said:

Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it. 

Has nothing to do with a person liking grouping.I am pretty sure we all like BOTH,single player games AND MMO's but the OP is 100% correct,Wow is NOT designed as a true mmo,it is just a mess of ideas tossed in there to attain levels and loot.
The quests always give xp and why would they?
Wow is about the ME ME factor,popular yes but that does not make it a MMO just because it is a popular game.
The game doesn't even do the simplest idea of housing in a role playing world,what the intelligent devs at Blizzard figured there is no plausible way anyone would possibly live anywhere,they simply live on the ground...sigh.
The team really got nothing right for a mmo or a rpg,they simply saw EQ,copied some ideas but wanted to make it easier to entice more players,especially the new ones just getting DSL during those initial years.

I started out like others in EQ but i am always on the lookout for a BETTER game,i moved to FFXi.I then played both EQ2 and Wow and both are identical only i felt EQ2 was a much better overall product but of course Wow became more popular among all the new rpg players that never played a MMO before or even new what Wow was like,they simply bought in on a whim.
The craze back then was massive,online gaming became an addiction so Wow's sudden popularity grew upon itself with NOBODY ever stopping to think...is this actually a MMO and a rpg or just a login screen to play a single player game with co-op dungeons?

klash2def

play SWTOR and profit op

Moxom914

TheScavenger said:

MrMelGibson said:

TheScavenger said:

They are designed with a solo only player in mind. You do quests, and (if you read the quest text, but it even happens when its voiced) its almost always about YOU and not the group or multiple people. On top of that, as an example of another problem, in WoW there are many cutscenes that don't even involve the player despite that your character is supposed to be there right in the same room or area (anduin entering lordaeron throneroom for example and the burning of the world tree). 

Which is a problem if the person decides to group to do quests or do any instance that requires grouping...the story is still about YOU and not the group that just did that instance or story. It doesn't even 1% take into consideration there are others involved, just YOU. 

Even worse are cinematics where your character is obviously there but not there in the cinematic or anywhere to be seen at all.

Maybe you should play SWTOR. It not only shows the group in cutscenes, but let's everyone get a choice of which direction to take the story.  While many mmos are more solo friendly, almost all require grouping for most endgame content.  Your point is only valid for the leveling process.

SWTOR is the single only story focused MMO that is an amazing example of what this thread is talking about. The group as you say, decides direction of the story AND the story involves the group and it even shows the group in the story (as you said). I think its the only MMO that is story based that actually does it.

And I've done some endgame content in WoW. But it didn't do it like SWTOR and it still was in the end focused on YOU ...or didn't even show a single actual player at all like SWTOR would have done (but then SWTOR would still have shown the whole group).

SWTOR is the only MMO that is story focused that also does amazing story telling through group focused gameplay (but can still be done solo if the person wanted to)

seems to me the real problem is you're a role player and WoW is taking that away from you with the cut scenes. not being able to see "yourself" in the scenes is not really a big deal unless you're role playing.

Elandrial

lets go to the meat of the problem with that.you have to have someone on the same quests as YOU.for example in ffxiv.there is a room where a quest giver is,basically an instance.when it first came out that room was crowded as everyone has the same quest,if you were on a different,you had a different instance.now if you do the quest ,as i have with alts.no one is on the room.so you would constantly have to look for new people to do the quest.a nightmare.you view is 100% unworkable.

Mikeha

ikcin said:

Mikeha said:

Moirae said:

Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it. 

I totally agree and I was a Lineage 2 player which was a game designed around grouping. MMOs should give players the options to do everything whether its grinding, questing, grouping or soloing. 

Can you play solo in EVE or L2? Yes, you can. But are they solo focused - no. The WoW is solo focused. In fact you can play solo even in LoL - well your team will probably lose, but you can. It is a fat lie, that only in WoW or instanced games you have the freedom to choose. You have this freedom in every MMO. Just other kinds of MMOs benefit more the multiplayer instead the singleplayer gameplay, and their focus is the group.

And in fact MMOs should not give to the players to do everything. Why they should? It is a game, and you have to play by its rules. If you do not like it - play another game. By your logic the chess should be played with ball, cards, solo, by teams - well it is a 1vs1 game with certain figures and rules - period.

No game should force anybody to group with other players period. I dont even like instance dungeons where you have to go in a que and match up with a full group before you enter. Bring back the days of open world dungeons where you could just walk into alone or in a group.


You want to not have the option to play your own way and be forced to do things then thats good for you. I want to log into a game and make my own choices and walk my own path. 

immodium

ikcin said:

The trick is - when you play a singlelayer game, you cannot feel part of a community. The people are social animals. They need other people. But to feel part of a community and to be part of a community are two very different things.

Poppycock.

Bethesda singleplayer games (Elderscrolls & Fallout) prove otherwise.

Even Minecraft which is designed around the single player experience has a great community.

Octagon7711

I think the title should be;

Discussion / The major reason MMOs like WoW and LOTRO (as two examples) don't work for an "MMO"RPG for me.

Clearly the gaming companies have done everything in their power to maximize profits by attracting the largest playerbase they can.  Not easy to do with so much competition.  

Kyleran

ConstantineMerus said:

2 easy steps to achieve reading comprehension:

1. Read
2. Comprehend 

You're welcome. 

3. Discuss whatever point you wish, or beat a dead horse some more, the OP is irrelevant. 

The reality of most threads here, particularly ill constructed ones.

Happy to assist.