And just like that, Metzen insured that I will not be returning to WoW.
What atrocious customer relations he has.
Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.
I will not return as long as he continues to write for them.
He's just upset that his little narrative wasn't loved by all. He showed what he's made of with this. I thought it would have been sterner stuff.
You do realize that Metzen retired at least a couple years ago and doesn't write for them any more?
Rabble rabble rabble...... Huh? Oh.... Well I guess we're going back to Wow! "oh you go pack your panties and I'll go pack my scanties and away we'll go, whoa oh oh"
In all seriousness this kind of shit is why I'm taking a vacation from gaming. If the brunt of the player base is seen, or actually are, a bunch of juvenile jerks and are therefore held in contempt by content creators, why the hell continue to participate in this tired little circus. Maybe it's time we all just called it a day and found other avenues of entertainment/employment.
Perhaps it isn't my place to advise you on the matter, but the way I see it, any group or activity you associate with is going to carry negative connotations. If you are a liberal, you'll be associated with extreme activists. If you're a conservative, you'll be associated with red hats. If you're religious, you have to justify or distance yourself from milennia of wars, purges, persecution, and witch hunts. If you're non-religious, you have to deal with societal misconceptions. If you're into sports, you have to distance yourself from egoistic jocks, the bully stereotype, and the NFL's long and storied history of domestic abuse. If you're into video games, as you are, you have to distance yourself from nerd rage.
My advice is simple. You do you. Don't worry about how others see you, because there will always be judgement and controversy. You'll only be happy if you do what you enjoy and believe in.
My question is why there was such an outrage now. As in why now? World of Warcraft has been bastardizing the lore of the RTS games for years in order to make anyone and everyone into raid bosses and shift racial allegiances to make the two factions equal. While the result has made sense from a gameplay perspective, the lore of World of Warcraft has long been a joke compared to the lore of its prequels.
the internet outrage culture is in full swing...
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Saying that....I think a lot of Horde players are misguided in that they have been led on to believe the Horde were boy scouts all this time....I mean you have a race of freaking zombies on your side, come on.
huh? Nobody thought the horde were boy scouts, but they weren't evil like so many alliance fanboys want to claim all of the sudden. Anyone that played the three RTS games knows the origin of the Alliance and the Horde and neither was good or evil. The forsaken were tacked onto the Horde to add a race for WOW.
I chose the Horde not because I thought they were evil, but because they were different than 99% of RPGs. If I want to play as or with humans, there are a million games for that.
Anyway, they done fucked up with the Horde the past few expansions. Calling them out for shitty writing is perfectly fair. Going beyond that is shitty and a very tiny percent of the community does that.
As someone who doesn't give a shit about the story, i enjoyed the pre event cut scenes and story. That cutscene in game of sylvanus turning into the banjee ghost or whatever and flying threw the ceiling was awesome. I hope we get to fight her in that form in a raid.
On one hand I think Metzen has some good points....on the other.....the freaking writers of these events are complicit in the fact they KNEW this would cause a huge community reaction. They also fed little bits of the story at a time on purpose so you WOULD jump to conclusions or at least speculate what was going on. Anyone who did not see this would divide the community is an idiot and shouldn't be writing for them....of course they knew! And the fact people have become emotionally invested in the lore should be celebrated. The reactions were not nerd toxicity, they were emotional reactions which most of the time are irrational regardless of the circumstances.
Saying that....I think a lot of Horde players are misguided in that they have been led on to believe the Horde were boy scouts all this time....I mean you have a race of freaking zombies on your side, come on.
On one hand I think Metzen has some good points....on the other.....the freaking writers of these events are complicit in the fact they KNEW this would cause a huge community reaction. They also fed little bits of the story at a time on purpose so you WOULD jump to conclusions or at least speculate what was going on. Anyone who did not see this would divide the community is an idiot and shouldn't be writing for them....of course they knew! And the fact people have become emotionally invested in the lore should be celebrated. The reactions were not nerd toxicity, they were emotional reactions which most of the time are irrational regardless of the circumstances.
Saying that....I think a lot of Horde players are misguided in that they have been led on to believe the Horde were boy scouts all this time....I mean you have a race of freaking zombies on your side, come on.
Any old farts here remember a time back in those crazy 80's when nerds were the bullied and not the bully's? The timesss they are a changinnnnnnn
No, they really aren't changing. The face of the bullies haven't changed, only the methods. The nerds are still the bullied, it's just that now, general society has figured out how to make nerds into scapegoats; now there is justification and increased pleasure when they verbally grind them into the dirt. The same bullies can now claim that the nerds deserve it. The same women can now feel justified in having looked over and mistreated them, because a lifetime of mistreatment has turned some of those nerds (not all or even most) into misogynists. The bullies have directly created a few bullies of their own and are not intelligent enough to see it or to tell the difference.
Any old farts here remember a time back in those crazy 80's when nerds were the bullied and not the bully's? The timesss they are a changinnnnnnn
When I went to school the nerds were the ones who built balsa wood airplanes. Us cool kids built model cars, mind you I secretly loved them balsa wood airplanes.
Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.
Well, you need them if you want games. So yeah, it's a two way street.
Not really. If 50% of the people playing games stop gaming altogether, nothing will happen to them besides stopping one very enjoyable hobby. For game professionals however, that amount of customers lost translates to a massive amount of revenue lost.
The percentage I used is extreme, but there are plenty of cases where games lost their entire player base, leading to studios shutting down.
Generally speaking, there is a fine line between passion and obsession. Ideally you want people to be passionate about your project. Too many however are feeding the obsession or facilitate the obsessive behaviors and then wonder where the toxicity came from.
One doesn't even have to go as far as stopping gaming. To make a statement, one only needs to shift to a competitor.
Mad at Bungie for the customer contempt they've repeatedly shown with Destiny 2? Go to Warframe as many have. Hell, many have given the Division a second look precisely because it has substantially improved while Destiny continues to take steps backwards.
Disappointed with the terrible launch and lack of long term support for Diablo 3? Well, such disappointment is at least partially responsible for the overwhelming success of Path of Exile.
We're currently seeing a massive increase in the popularity of JRPGs and traditional RPGs because several major western publishers are failing to meet the needs of singleplayer gamers.
The list goes on. If anything, leaving disrespectful or lackluster developers to support quality ones speaks louder than quitting the hobby outright.
This is by far the smartest thing I've read in this comment section. The same goes with half assed Early Access games, people support games like No Man's Sky, Bless online, and expect a quality product in return. That's another story though.
I see just as much developer/publisher arrogance and disrespect as I see toxic players... more probably. It takes two parties to build a mature and respectful relationship and I see fault on both sides.
But I see a lot less toxicity in player communities with developers like CDPR who don't bullshit their customers than I do with players in SWBF or Destiny which leads me to believe that the developer/publisher has much more control over what type of relationship they have with their fans than the other way around.
Blizzard... let's not forget "you think you do but you don't." They might have backtracked and started working on Vanilla WOW but the disrespect for their fans inherent in that original response stands.
And like @laserit said above, just look at their monetization model for a clue about what they think of you.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I see just as much developer/publisher arrogance and disrespect as I see toxic players... more probably. It takes two parties to build a mature and respectful relationship and I see fault on both sides.
But I see a lot less toxicity in player communities with developers like CDPR who don't bullshit their customers than I do with players in SWBF or Destiny which leads me to believe that the developer/publisher has much more control over what type of relationship they have with their fans than the other way around.
Blizzard... let's not forget "you think you do but you don't." They might have backtracked and started working on Vanilla WOW but the disrespect for their fans inherent in that original response stands.
And like @laserit said above, just look at their monetization model for a clue about what they think of you.
Good points.
There are certain devs/pubs who don't draw as polarizing a crowd. I'm thinking of Larian Studios as well as Obsidian, too. Obsidian got the obligatory "No, not the gays!!!!!1!!!1!1!1oneoneone" when they released PoE2, but that's about all I remember as far as irrational community backlash.
I once told a mate of mine that he's so edgy and has no control over his actions once he's angry. He got so upset about this unjust name calling that he beat the crap out of me.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I used to have a lot of friends that played video games. Now i know one person that does. And neither one of us tells our other friends we play video games still. In our circle its becoming an underground thing. All out other friend have quit playing because they think video gamers today are a bunch of racist and sexist morons.
Plain and simple Metzen is right. It is amazing that the littlest things like the fact they slowed down leveling, make you play the game before you can fly, the way they write a story, or even the most recent, remove it so that you need to spend an extra 10 seconds to join a group through the group finder instead of having an addon do it for you can literally spark people wanting someone to be fired or death threats over. I mean if you are SO invested in a game that these things cause you to go to that extreme then you may want to think about stepping away from video games and seeking professional help. I get being passionate but there is a fine line between passion and crazy and some people who play this game long-jumped that line years ago...
I see just as much developer/publisher arrogance and disrespect as I see toxic players... more probably. It takes two parties to build a mature and respectful relationship and I see fault on both sides.
But I see a lot less toxicity in player communities with developers like CDPR who don't bullshit their customers than I do with players in SWBF or Destiny which leads me to believe that the developer/publisher has much more control over what type of relationship they have with their fans than the other way around.
Blizzard... let's not forget "you think you do but you don't." They might have backtracked and started working on Vanilla WOW but the disrespect for their fans inherent in that original response stands.
And like @laserit said above, just look at their monetization model for a clue about what they think of you.
I mean, even in the previous recent controversy (the Guild Wars 2 Jessica Price debacle), the community outrage was the direct result of disrespect from an arrogant and toxic developer. Before this, those involved and the community at large were respectful and viewed as one of the best gaming communities.
All I see in the gaming industry is communities reflecting their developers and games. Toxicity is rare in Warframe because its developers are saints. Toxicity is rare in The Division because Ubisoft has done so much to improve their public image. Toxicity is common in Call of Duty, SWBF2, and Destiny because EA, Activision, and Bungie have no respect for their players.
Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.
This mentality is exactly what's wrong. This absurd notion that the customer is in any way 'right' or entitled to anything. The only thing you are entitled to is choosing if you want to patronize a product with your money. Don't like the product? Don't buy it.
This whiney "you can't treat a customer this way" attitude IS the problem. You aren't special. Your measly 14 bucks a month doesn't entitle you to anything.
Frankly, i'd love to work for a company that allowed its reps to talk to people like you honestly.
If your customer is acting like a whiney little child, calling them out isn't a bad thing. Spending money on a product doesn't give you a license to act like an ass.
Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.
Behaving with anything less than a professional curtsy towards paying customers (amount is irrelevant, what you asked is what you got), is the epitome of entitlement. Expecting them to remain customers is merely a sign of an abusive relationship that certain people think is sustainable.
In the case of Blizzard, I believe they lost control when they started implemented completely unnecessary tools, that were used to stifle any meaningful player interaction.
I do agree with your last paragraph. It however works both ways.
Your first line is fundamentally wrong if you call yourself a gamer. You do need them as much as they need you. Without them you don't have the outlet for your hobby because no one is making the games. See how that in itself is somewhat a ridiculous statement.
People today have such thin skin they can't fathom the idea that someone else doesn't agree with everything they say and anytime someone goes against them it is the end of the world to them. Overall box chain stores started this whole concept that the customer is always right. Well in the real world no they are not, and most of the time that is by a very large margin of them being wrong.
Should a dev or representative speak down to an angry customer, no they shouldn't, and it has nothing to do with the customer being right, it has to do with personal morals which many people today just do not have. Imagine you are on the other end of this conversation and you are being attacked personally for a work of fiction everyday how would you feel.
The customer is always right policy doesn't mean the customer is right it just means you placate them to their face and make them go away thinking they won something when in reality they did nothing and are being laughed at by everyone else that dealt with them.
I wasn't necessarily directing this entire post toward the poster either, just replied because of the flawed opening statement and continued with my thought.
Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.
This mentality is exactly what's wrong. This absurd notion that the customer is in any way 'right' or entitled to anything. The only thing you are entitled to is choosing if you want to patronize a product with your money. Don't like the product? Don't buy it.
This whiney "you can't treat a customer this way" attitude IS the problem. You aren't special. Your measly 14 bucks a month doesn't entitle you to anything.
Frankly, i'd love to work for a company that allowed its reps to talk to people like you honestly.
If your customer is acting like a whiney little child, calling them out isn't a bad thing. Spending money on a product doesn't give you a license to act like an ass.
Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.
Behaving with anything less than a professional curtsy towards paying customers (amount is irrelevant, what you asked is what you got), is the epitome of entitlement. Expecting them to remain customers is merely a sign of an abusive relationship that certain people think is sustainable.
In the case of Blizzard, I believe they lost control when they started implemented completely unnecessary tools, that were used to stifle any meaningful player interaction.
I do agree with your last paragraph. It however works both ways.
Your first line is fundamentally wrong if you call yourself a gamer. You do need them as much as they need you. Without them you don't have the outlet for your hobby because no one is making the games. See how that in itself is somewhat a ridiculous statement.
There is a difference between not needing A developer and not needing ANY developers. We can play video games without EA or Activision. Conversely, there are developers like CDProjeckt Red and Digital Extremes who few, if any gamers would like to see go under.
Just because the gaming industry is one industry does not mean that it is united or uniform. That's how competition works.
I used to have a lot of friends that played video games. Now i know one person that does. And neither one of us tells our other friends we play video games still. In our circle its becoming an underground thing. All out other friend have quit playing because they think video gamers today are a bunch of racist and sexist morons.
1.8 billion of racists and sexists morons worldwide ... I mean, sure, with that number it is inevitable that you'll run into a considerable number of them, but still ...
I used to have a lot of friends that played video games. Now i know one person that does. And neither one of us tells our other friends we play video games still. In our circle its becoming an underground thing. All out other friend have quit playing because they think video gamers today are a bunch of racist and sexist morons.
1.8 billion of racists and sexists morons worldwide ... I mean, sure, with that number it is inevitable that you'll run into a considerable number of them, but still ...
Yeah, but that's the thing, in any hobby one is going to run into bad people. But when there is a contingent of them who make themselves known and who unfortunately seem the face of a hobby/past time, then that's how that past time gets labeled.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I used to have a lot of friends that played video games. Now i know one person that does. And neither one of us tells our other friends we play video games still. In our circle its becoming an underground thing. All out other friend have quit playing because they think video gamers today are a bunch of racist and sexist morons.
1.8 billion of racists and sexists morons worldwide ... I mean, sure, with that number it is inevitable that you'll run into a considerable number of them, but still ...
Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.
This mentality is exactly what's wrong. This absurd notion that the customer is in any way 'right' or entitled to anything. The only thing you are entitled to is choosing if you want to patronize a product with your money. Don't like the product? Don't buy it.
This whiney "you can't treat a customer this way" attitude IS the problem. You aren't special. Your measly 14 bucks a month doesn't entitle you to anything.
Frankly, i'd love to work for a company that allowed its reps to talk to people like you honestly.
If your customer is acting like a whiney little child, calling them out isn't a bad thing. Spending money on a product doesn't give you a license to act like an ass.
Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.
Behaving with anything less than a professional curtsy towards paying customers (amount is irrelevant, what you asked is what you got), is the epitome of entitlement. Expecting them to remain customers is merely a sign of an abusive relationship that certain people think is sustainable.
In the case of Blizzard, I believe they lost control when they started implemented completely unnecessary tools, that were used to stifle any meaningful player interaction.
I do agree with your last paragraph. It however works both ways.
Your first line is fundamentally wrong if you call yourself a gamer. You do need them as much as they need you. Without them you don't have the outlet for your hobby because no one is making the games. See how that in itself is somewhat a ridiculous statement.
There is a difference between not needing A developer and not needing ANY developers. We can play video games without EA or Activision. Conversely, there are developers like CDProjeckt Red and Digital Extremes who few, if any gamers would like to see go under.
Just because the gaming industry is one industry does not mean that it is united or uniform. That's how competition works.
Not only that, but devs need us much more than we need them. I dunno about you, but WoW, Overwatch, or any other video game does nothing to pay my bills or put food on my table.
Devs need gamers much more than gamers need devs. No contest.
Comments
My advice is simple. You do you. Don't worry about how others see you, because there will always be judgement and controversy. You'll only be happy if you do what you enjoy and believe in.
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I had fun once, it was terrible.
huh? Nobody thought the horde were boy scouts, but they weren't evil like so many alliance fanboys want to claim all of the sudden. Anyone that played the three RTS games knows the origin of the Alliance and the Horde and neither was good or evil. The forsaken were tacked onto the Horde to add a race for WOW.
I chose the Horde not because I thought they were evil, but because they were different than 99% of RPGs. If I want to play as or with humans, there are a million games for that.
Anyway, they done fucked up with the Horde the past few expansions. Calling them out for shitty writing is perfectly fair. Going beyond that is shitty and a very tiny percent of the community does that.
Aloha Mr Hand !
Aloha Mr Hand !
It's couldn't care less. could care less means well - you could actually care less.
It's a big pet peeve of mine
Aloha Mr Hand !
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
This is by far the smartest thing I've read in this comment section. The same goes with half assed Early Access games, people support games like No Man's Sky, Bless online, and expect a quality product in return. That's another story though.
asdasdasd
But I see a lot less toxicity in player communities with developers like CDPR who don't bullshit their customers than I do with players in SWBF or Destiny which leads me to believe that the developer/publisher has much more control over what type of relationship they have with their fans than the other way around.
Blizzard... let's not forget "you think you do but you don't." They might have backtracked and started working on Vanilla WOW but the disrespect for their fans inherent in that original response stands.
And like @laserit said above, just look at their monetization model for a clue about what they think of you.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There are certain devs/pubs who don't draw as polarizing a crowd. I'm thinking of Larian Studios as well as Obsidian, too. Obsidian got the obligatory "No, not the gays!!!!!1!!!1!1!1oneoneone" when they released PoE2, but that's about all I remember as far as irrational community backlash.
Aloha Mr Hand !
All I see in the gaming industry is communities reflecting their developers and games. Toxicity is rare in Warframe because its developers are saints. Toxicity is rare in The Division because Ubisoft has done so much to improve their public image. Toxicity is common in Call of Duty, SWBF2, and Destiny because EA, Activision, and Bungie have no respect for their players.
Your first line is fundamentally wrong if you call yourself a gamer. You do need them as much as they need you. Without them you don't have the outlet for your hobby because no one is making the games. See how that in itself is somewhat a ridiculous statement.
People today have such thin skin they can't fathom the idea that someone else doesn't agree with everything they say and anytime someone goes against them it is the end of the world to them. Overall box chain stores started this whole concept that the customer is always right. Well in the real world no they are not, and most of the time that is by a very large margin of them being wrong.
Should a dev or representative speak down to an angry customer, no they shouldn't, and it has nothing to do with the customer being right, it has to do with personal morals which many people today just do not have. Imagine you are on the other end of this conversation and you are being attacked personally for a work of fiction everyday how would you feel.
The customer is always right policy doesn't mean the customer is right it just means you placate them to their face and make them go away thinking they won something when in reality they did nothing and are being laughed at by everyone else that dealt with them. I wasn't necessarily directing this entire post toward the poster either, just replied because of the flawed opening statement and continued with my thought.
Just because the gaming industry is one industry does not mean that it is united or uniform. That's how competition works.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Aloha Mr Hand !
Devs need gamers much more than gamers need devs. No contest.
I've got the straight edge.