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Foundry 42 Financials Released

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  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,451
    lahnmir said:
    I see everybody is back at it and not a single thing was learned. Awesome guys.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Actually not everyone. I have been gone myself but since this all broke the rabbit has been completely MIA. Maybe he finally realizes the dream is dead, Or now that they have a financial backer the paid forum propaganda posters arent needed anymore. Which is the greatest irony of all time these guys have been getting as much 'marketing' for this trainwreck for 4 or more years from these guys FOR FREE. now suddenly theyre going pt pay 46 million AND give apiece of the company away? LMAO.

    The pig is still here but he hasnt really had too much to say. The Forbes article (which i think has been substantiated now) pretty much puts all the money nonsense to bed.

    Guy has blown through 200 million and what you see is what you get.

    Like i have told all the rabid fanboys here if they didnt raise another dime they wouldnt release anything beyond what they had and even that would be short lived since it take money to run that test bed (tech demo) server.

    I havent looked at the self accounted donation spread sheet in awhile I am wondering how this news affected it, if at all. 
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    >>> ... the rabbit has been completely MIA. ...<<<

    LOL. You wish ;-)

    Click on posting history. But as I mentioned before ... facts are not your strongest point :-D

    I play a lot of SC these days, thanks to the Christmas vacation days, together with my buddies. And we are having a blast, as more and more is added to SC and the performance is finally satisfactory for all of us, even those with older rigs. 


    Have fun

    Gdemami
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,879
    rodarin said:
    Actually not everyone. I have been gone myself but since this all broke the rabbit has been completely MIA. Maybe he finally realizes the dream is dead, Or now that they have a financial backer the paid forum propaganda posters arent needed anymore. 
    You have one unhealthy obsession with Erillion and me  I swear lol

    I ignore most of your ramblings, the same old text wall rants of yours have become more and more boring over the years so meh I focus discussions with other posters. 
    Gdemami
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    edited December 2018
    Interesting how with the white knights, the game is always doing great and they never invite people to play with them, never invite people to join a discord, or never name their orgs. or thank their friends for having a good time in game, never mention details of what they did in gaming session.  If one did it, it would'nt seem so unusual.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    edited December 2018
    Interesting how with the white knights, the game is always doing great and they never invite people to play with them, never invite people to join a discord, or never name their orgs. or thank their friends for having a good time in game, never mention details of what they did in gaming session.  If one did it, it would'nt seem so unusual.
    Because you learn the hard way not to give too much information about yourself online in forums. Especially when you know that certain people infamous for their doxxing habit also read that forum. 
    I have a lot of great friends in SC that I personally know in real life - that is enough to ....

    Have fun 


    PS:
    Many of us have talked in detail about what we did in a gaming session. E.g. I talked about boarding action training, canyon jumping, canyon speed running a la Beggars Canyon run, Greycat golf cart stunt driving  or group dance choreography etc. 
    MaxBaconGdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,066
    Interesting how with the white knights, the game is always doing great and they never invite people to play with them, never invite people to join a discord, or never name their orgs. or thank their friends for having a good time in game, never mention details of what they did in gaming session.  If one did it, it would'nt seem so unusual.
    I did that once with Mortal Online.   I had one of the big supporters join me in game.   I fI recall, about 2 minutes after we joined up some hacked guy was insta killing everyone. It's kind of vague but I remember that we had made a video of it.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,879
    edited December 2018
    Interesting how with the white knights, the game is always doing great and they never invite people to play with them, never invite people to join a discord, or never name their orgs. or thank their friends for having a good time in game, never mention details of what they did in gaming session.  If one did it, it would'nt seem so unusual.
    I play within my org, but I won't mix me in-game and here together.

    Mind this is the place I have gotten close to death threats from whoever was creating alt accounts with the fans going to all suicide type of talk if you remember.

    So not comfortable at all on doing something as inviting or people around the forum here who play to get into a session together, it's not a welcoming tone sadly as this forum is more about people who don't own/play SC hating it than anything else.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    kikoodutroa8Gdemami
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,451
    LMAO guys still think this thing is going to be released.

    12-20-2018 was the day the dream died. Make sure to bookmark this because thats what is going to happen.

    At BEST Roberts sells too many shares and he gets kicked off his own project then and only then will this thing have a prayer of getting put out.

    I used to think as long as the money kept rolling in it had a chance but as we now know they have been in the red for at least 3 years and I imagine 2018 was the worst yet (thus why they sought a bail out well they have probably been looking for a bail out for years but they finally softened these guys up enough)

    How can a BILLION dollars (Chris Roberts math of 4-1 independent studio versus big time conglomerate) not make the single player game? How is THAT still 4 or 5  years away (which basically means never) and how is it his brother claimed 2 or 3 years ago to have played all the missions at that time?

    I dont have to write anything anymore these days anyway since its like shooting fish in a barrel its not even fair. At least before it was simple common sense now its absolutes.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,879
    edited December 2018
    rodarin said:
    ...I dont have to write anything anymore...
    Good. But you will anyway xD
    Erillion
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member RarePosts: 2,241
     And maybe the elevators will work....
    They still have to put in (working, not placeholders) spindles, modules, blades, remote turrets, drones, hired NPCs, docking collars, a chat window, etc etc

    You want working elevators?

    doubt.jpg
    Come home, North Man.

    Rolling for Spicy.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,318
    rodarin said:
    <snip>

    I used to think as long as the money kept rolling in it had a chance but as we now know they have been in the red for at least 3 years <snip>
    <snip>
    They haven't been "in the red". Their financial balance has been positive; staff have been paid etc. Crysis went in the red; staff didn't get paid. A big difference if you are the staff. 

    We don't actually know what the current position is. The financials for Foundry 42 won't tell us since that is just a sub-company which gets its money from higher up the tree. And the financials for RSI won't tell us since they only go to 2017. In short we have no number for the end of 2018.

    However as they have been paying staff throughout 2018 and seem to have hired more the only conclusion we can make is that the crowdfunding coming in has been at least sufficient.

    If at the end of 2018 they have less than $14M (or whatever) then you can say they have had "negative cash flow". If more than "positive cash slow". (I'm ignoring the $46M.)

    And with record crowdfunding in December 2018, quarterly updates delivered more or less as stated and the development in better shape than at the end of 2017.

    The only unknown - I suggest - is how the investment might be viewed by potential future backers: no opinion people simply decide on the merits / state of the development; a sell out that makes people decide not to pledge; a sign of confidence, an outside investor believes the game will release lets go for it. 

    My own view is that it won't make much, if any, difference - but that is just my opinion. Future patches, the signs of a maturing game, better performance and, at some point, the MVP - those are what I think will have much more impact. Or - flip side - huge problems and delays. As I said a long time ago the alpha is a two edged sword; it showcases what is finished today. Not the doom, not the hype but what there is.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,909
    gervaise1 said:
    rodarin said:
    <snip>

    I used to think as long as the money kept rolling in it had a chance but as we now know they have been in the red for at least 3 years <snip>
    <snip>
    They haven't been "in the red". Their financial balance has been positive; staff have been paid etc. Crysis went in the red; staff didn't get paid. A big difference if you are the staff. 

    We don't actually know what the current position is. The financials for Foundry 42 won't tell us since that is just a sub-company which gets its money from higher up the tree. And the financials for RSI won't tell us since they only go to 2017. In short we have no number for the end of 2018.

    However as they have been paying staff throughout 2018 and seem to have hired more the only conclusion we can make is that the crowdfunding coming in has been at least sufficient.

    If at the end of 2018 they have less than $14M (or whatever) then you can say they have had "negative cash flow". If more than "positive cash slow". (I'm ignoring the $46M.)

    And with record crowdfunding in December 2018, quarterly updates delivered more or less as stated and the development in better shape than at the end of 2017.

    The only unknown - I suggest - is how the investment might be viewed by potential future backers: no opinion people simply decide on the merits / state of the development; a sell out that makes people decide not to pledge; a sign of confidence, an outside investor believes the game will release lets go for it. 

    My own view is that it won't make much, if any, difference - but that is just my opinion. Future patches, the signs of a maturing game, better performance and, at some point, the MVP - those are what I think will have much more impact. Or - flip side - huge problems and delays. As I said a long time ago the alpha is a two edged sword; it showcases what is finished today. Not the doom, not the hype but what there is.
    Be that as it may, having negative cash flow the last three years on record isn't really a good signal.  It begs the question whether the 46 millions were more an investment or a bailout.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,880
    gervaise1 said:
    rodarin said:
    <snip>

    I used to think as long as the money kept rolling in it had a chance but as we now know they have been in the red for at least 3 years <snip>
    <snip>
    They haven't been "in the red". Their financial balance has been positive; staff have been paid etc. Crysis went in the red; staff didn't get paid. A big difference if you are the staff. 

    We don't actually know what the current position is. The financials for Foundry 42 won't tell us since that is just a sub-company which gets its money from higher up the tree. And the financials for RSI won't tell us since they only go to 2017. In short we have no number for the end of 2018.

    However as they have been paying staff throughout 2018 and seem to have hired more the only conclusion we can make is that the crowdfunding coming in has been at least sufficient.

    If at the end of 2018 they have less than $14M (or whatever) then you can say they have had "negative cash flow". If more than "positive cash slow". (I'm ignoring the $46M.)

    And with record crowdfunding in December 2018, quarterly updates delivered more or less as stated and the development in better shape than at the end of 2017.

    The only unknown - I suggest - is how the investment might be viewed by potential future backers: no opinion people simply decide on the merits / state of the development; a sell out that makes people decide not to pledge; a sign of confidence, an outside investor believes the game will release lets go for it. 

    My own view is that it won't make much, if any, difference - but that is just my opinion. Future patches, the signs of a maturing game, better performance and, at some point, the MVP - those are what I think will have much more impact. Or - flip side - huge problems and delays. As I said a long time ago the alpha is a two edged sword; it showcases what is finished today. Not the doom, not the hype but what there is.
    Be that as it may, having negative cash flow the last three years on record isn't really a good signal.  It begs the question whether the 46 millions were more an investment or a bailout.
    Definite a bailout in my opinion. And of course CR is trying to spin it that it’s for marketing....marketing for a game that’s not going to come until 2020 and we know that date is going to get pushed back and for a game that I’m sure even non gamers know about. Normally I keep my bullshit meter turned off whenever CR talks cause it’s always going off but the bullshit was so great the meter turned itself on.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    Do you know a game IN DEVELOPMENT  that does have POSITIVE cash flow ? Would be interested in the numbers (link please). 

    Have fun 

    Phaserlight
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,909
    edited December 2018
    Erillion said:
    Do you know a game IN DEVELOPMENT  that does have POSITIVE cash flow ? Would be interested in the numbers (link please). 

    Have fun 

    Yes, but this is a man who initially said he could do it in 2 years for $500,000.  We are now 6 years in and 200 million isn't enough.  If you are unable to budget in the neighborhood of 30 millions annually, things have gone off course.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    Erillion said:
    Do you know a game IN DEVELOPMENT  that does have POSITIVE cash flow ? Would be interested in the numbers (link please). 

    Have fun 

    Yes, but this is a man who initially said he could do it in 2 years for $500,000.  We are now 6 years in and 200 million isn't enough.  If you are unable to budget in the neighborhood of 30 millions annually, things have gone off course.
    Incorrect. 

    First: "it" has changed since 2012 by a factor of magnitude (anywhere between x10 to x30 in my opinion)
    Second: the 500.000 $ you refer to were intended to show external investors that there IS interest in such a kind of game. They were NEVER the expected development cost. And the estimate was already obsolete by the end of the Kickstarter campaign - even obsolete on day 1 (!) of they Kickstarter campaign. 

    Again ... which Game DOES have a positive cashflow during development before launch ?

    Have fun
    Gdemami
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,259
    edited December 2018
    Can you elaborate on how the scope has changed between 10 and 30 times? Planets strike me as the largest change but the plan was always to have elaborate set pieces the player could explore. As we've seen from Lorville it's not completely open, there are still glass walls all over the place so in that respect they're still similar to the original design although they might be larger.
    Outside of these areas a player wouldn't have had full access but that in itself is not really that big of a deal, plenty of other games use PG for that sort of thing and it's quite straightforward for them.

    >> Again ... which Game DOES have a positive cashflow during development before launch ?

    The absence of an example does not automatically mean Star Citizen is good. CIG wanted $23 million for full autonomy and have now received more than 10x that figure. The game (with all stretch goals) was claimed to be fully funded at $65 million, they now have almost 4x that figure and yet they are operating on a very thin line.
    If somebody receives way more than they claim they need but are then seen to be "scraping by" it's not surprising for people to wonder what went wrong.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    edited December 2018
    Can you elaborate on how the scope has changed between 10 and 30 times? Planets strike me as the largest change but the plan was always to have elaborate set pieces the player could explore. As we've seen from Lorville it's not completely open, there are still glass walls all over the place so in that respect they're still similar to the original design although they might be larger.
    Outside of these areas a player wouldn't have had full access but that in itself is not really that big of a deal, plenty of other games use PG for that sort of thing and it's quite straightforward for them.

    >> Again ... which Game DOES have a positive cashflow during development before launch ?

    The absence of an example does not automatically mean Star Citizen is good. CIG wanted $23 million for full autonomy and have now received more than 10x that figure. The game (with all stretch goals) was claimed to be fully funded at $65 million, they now have almost 4x that figure and yet they are operating on a very thin line.
    If somebody receives way more than they claim they need but are then seen to be "scraping by" it's not surprising for people to wonder what went wrong.
    From a Wing Commander style game with some FPS aspects and some limited locations per system (the initial Kickstarter pledge at the beginning of October 2012) to an immersive world to live in a la Star Wars Galaxies. Where not only fighters but all kinds of player types can live in. With 100 systems in it's final form, where you can land anywhere (not only selected zones - any "glass walls" are Alpha limitations, to be removed during development). With dozens of ships and many dozens of variants. With hundreds of modules and weapons. With a solo game featuring a Hollywood cast rarely seen even in a blockbuster movie. Yes, I personally call that an enlarged scope. 


    Have fun

    PS:
    Two things come to mind as cause for delays and increased spending. Technical challenges being larger than expected. And more iteration cycles needed than expected (e.g. the necessary move from external contractors to in house development). 
    Post edited by Erillion on
    Gdemami
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Erillion said:
    Do you know a game IN DEVELOPMENT  that does have POSITIVE cash flow ? Would be interested in the numbers (link please). 

    Have fun 

    Yes, but this is a man who initially said he could do it in 2 years for $500,000.  We are now 6 years in and 200 million isn't enough.  If you are unable to budget in the neighborhood of 30 millions annually, things have gone off course.
    This is a guy who overspent and over expanded on Freelancer.  Sold it to Microsoft and keep asking for more money to continue working on the game.  They scaled it back and launched it, after minimizing his role during development.  He never made a game after that.  If he haven't leaned from that experience he may end up repeating it.  So far it looks like he's walking the same path.  Instead of focusing on one game like most new studios, he's working on two and plans on making the second one into a series.  I'd like to see this thing work and hope history doesn't repeat itself, which it seems to be doing.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,909
    Erillion said:
    Erillion said:
    Do you know a game IN DEVELOPMENT  that does have POSITIVE cash flow ? Would be interested in the numbers (link please). 

    Have fun 

    Yes, but this is a man who initially said he could do it in 2 years for $500,000.  We are now 6 years in and 200 million isn't enough.  If you are unable to budget in the neighborhood of 30 millions annually, things have gone off course.
    Incorrect. 

    First: "it" has changed since 2012 by a factor of magnitude (anywhere between x10 to x30 in my opinion)
    Second: the 500.000 $ you refer to were intended to show external investors that there IS interest in such a kind of game. They were NEVER the expected development cost. And the estimate was already obsolete by the end of the Kickstarter campaign - even obsolete on day 1 (!) of they Kickstarter campaign. 

    Again ... which Game DOES have a positive cashflow during development before launch ?

    Have fun
    I mostly agree with you, but I'd just like to point out that even what you are describing strikes me as a misuse of Kickstarter; you are supposed to ask for what you know it will take to accomplish the project, not a lesser but more achievable amount "to show external investors".  Saying 'well, Chris knew 500k wouldn't be enough but he just wanted to make a point' doesn't really help Star Citizen's case.  In the best of light, this is an underhanded way to use KS.

    At any rate, I'm well aware of my own biases and I'm inclined to bow out of Star Citizen discussions until circa 2021.  The cards seem to be now on the proverbial table.  Good luck, folks.
    MadFrenchie

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    Good luck and Have fun
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,259
    Erillion said:
    Can you elaborate on how the scope has changed between 10 and 30 times? Planets strike me as the largest change but the plan was always to have elaborate set pieces the player could explore. As we've seen from Lorville it's not completely open, there are still glass walls all over the place so in that respect they're still similar to the original design although they might be larger.
    Outside of these areas a player wouldn't have had full access but that in itself is not really that big of a deal, plenty of other games use PG for that sort of thing and it's quite straightforward for them.

    >> Again ... which Game DOES have a positive cashflow during development before launch ?

    The absence of an example does not automatically mean Star Citizen is good. CIG wanted $23 million for full autonomy and have now received more than 10x that figure. The game (with all stretch goals) was claimed to be fully funded at $65 million, they now have almost 4x that figure and yet they are operating on a very thin line.
    If somebody receives way more than they claim they need but are then seen to be "scraping by" it's not surprising for people to wonder what went wrong.
    From a Wing Commander style game with some FPS aspects and some limited locations per system (the initial Kickstarter pledge at the beginning of October 2012) to an immersive world to live in a la Star Wars Galaxies. Where not only fighters but all kinds of player types can live in. With 100 systems in it's final form, where you can land anywhere (not only selected zones - any "glass walls" are Alpha limitations, to be removed during development). With dozens of ships and many dozens of variants. With hundreds of modules and weapons. With a solo game featuring a Hollywood cast rarely seen even in a blockbuster movie. Yes, I personally call that an enlarged scope. 


    Have fun

    PS:
    Two things come to mind as cause for delays and increased spending. Technical challenges being larger than expected. And more iteration cycles needed than expected (e.g. the necessary move from external contractors to in house development). 
    I suppose if you're looking at the very initial pitch then I could see why you might think it has expanded so much but they were so free with adding stretch goals all through the Kickstarter that it ballooned in scope just within that 1st month. The real change in scope that people refer to though is when it went fully open world vs limited planetary access, there was always going to be ship boarding, fps, eva yadda yadda.

    P.S Three things come to mind for delays and increased spending. An extravagance of money leading to a desire to have "all the things" as evidenced by the tranistion from Best Damn Space Sim Ever to Best Damn First Person Sim Ever to Best Damn First Person Universe Ever, an inability to lock the "vision" down and having to keep adding things to pay for the already increased scope.


    Erillion
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member RarePosts: 2,241
    Erillion said:
    Do you know a game IN DEVELOPMENT  that does have POSITIVE cash flow ? Would be interested in the numbers (link please). 

    Have fun 

    Game Titles? No.

    Game Studios? Yes.

    How do you think game titles are typically funded? Just curious.

    Come home, North Man.

    Rolling for Spicy.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    Funding of game titles:

    if first game of a new studio: investors and/or crowdfunding

    if subsequent game title:
    a) profit from previous game(s)
    b) investors
    c) stock market 
    d) government subsidy
    e) crowdfunding 
    f) license rights and merchandising 
    g) microtransactions



    Have fun

    Gdemami
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member RarePosts: 2,241
    Erillion said:
    Funding of game titles:

    if first game of a new studio: investors and/or crowdfunding



    You forgot loans.

    So which has been more typical for new studios over the decades? How would you rank investors, loans, and crowdfunding as being most typical overall?
    Come home, North Man.

    Rolling for Spicy.
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