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Stretch goals

QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,821
Now that the game has reached beta, I decided to look into it to see if it looked potentially interesting.  I came across this:

http://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-15-stretching-is-good-for-the-body-but-be-careful-not-to-overdo-it/

"I PROMISE, ON BEHALF OF CSE, NEVER TO ADD, OR ALLOW TO BE ADDED, STRETCH GOALS THAT ENDANGER THE ESTIMATED LAUNCH OF CAMELOT UNCHAINED IN DECEMBER 2015."

(caps in original, not mine)

*checks calendar*

Do you think they did?

Comments

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,767
    Quizzical said:
    Now that the game has reached beta, I decided to look into it to see if it looked potentially interesting.  I came across this:

    http://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-15-stretching-is-good-for-the-body-but-be-careful-not-to-overdo-it/

    "I PROMISE, ON BEHALF OF CSE, NEVER TO ADD, OR ALLOW TO BE ADDED, STRETCH GOALS THAT ENDANGER THE ESTIMATED LAUNCH OF CAMELOT UNCHAINED IN DECEMBER 2015."

    (caps in original, not mine)

    *checks calendar*

    Do you think they did?
    I think they spent a lot of time perfecting the tech as they wanted to get a lot of people on screen with minimal lag but with decent draw distance.



  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,502
    I mean, thank God.  Already ridiculously late (I know, CU gets a pass on this for some reason, maybe cause they are nice guys).  Can you imagine if they'd added to the scope of the game?
  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    I mean, thank God.  Already ridiculously late (I know, CU gets a pass on this for some reason, maybe cause they are nice guys).  Can you imagine if they'd added to the scope of the game?
    Being nice, transparent, respectful, having no-questions-asked refund policy for 5 years, avoiding the temptation of feature creep or cash shop milking or greed in general, keeping low profile and working hard...all that will make lots of people (often the same ones that would otherwise throw stones at you) be very forgiving, or even directly support your work.
    skadadLokeroIselinKyleranSlapshot1188Marcus-tweedledumb99
     W...aaagh?
  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,271
    Quizzical said:
    Now that the game has reached beta, I decided to look into it to see if it looked potentially interesting.  I came across this:

    http://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-15-stretching-is-good-for-the-body-but-be-careful-not-to-overdo-it/

    "I PROMISE, ON BEHALF OF CSE, NEVER TO ADD, OR ALLOW TO BE ADDED, STRETCH GOALS THAT ENDANGER THE ESTIMATED LAUNCH OF CAMELOT UNCHAINED IN DECEMBER 2015."

    (caps in original, not mine)

    *checks calendar*

    Do you think they did?
    They are late for many other reasons than stretch goals (hiring difficulties, redoing the ability system, GDPR, etc). The idea with a stretch goal is that the cost of the stretch goal is used to pay for developers who can complete the stretch goal without affecting launch date.

    That's why some stretch goals such as spirit pet mages and stealthers are called extender pack stretch goals because Mark didn't believe he would be able to meet launch date including that stretch goal and therefore the stretch goal will most likely be worked on after launch.
    JamesGoblintweedledumb99

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,254
    I think with the schedule already blown by factors other than stretch goals they should now try to deliver any which wont impact a late 2019 release date which Mark recently reaffirmed 
    tweedledumb99

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    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,821
    meddyck said:
    They are late for many other reasons than stretch goals (hiring difficulties, redoing the ability system, GDPR, etc). The idea with a stretch goal is that the cost of the stretch goal is used to pay for developers who can complete the stretch goal without affecting launch date.

    That's just not how programming works.  Have you ever heard that adding more programmers to a late project makes it later?

    It seems that the consensus here is that this game hasn't suffered from mission creep.  Rather, the base game was far too ambitious to be done in the 32-month estimated timeframe.  Now about twice that much time has passed, and they're still saying that the game is about half that much time away from launch, which really isn't a very good ratio.

    But people aren't sore about it the way they are for some other games, such as Star Citizen.  Perhaps it's as JamesGoblin said:  offering refunds to any backers who want them and not constantly trying to raise more money earned them some goodwill.  Opening beta recently so as to prove that the game isn't some vaporware scam might well have contributed to that, too.

    But if backers of the game are satisfied with progress rather than upset about delays, that's a good position to be in.  Allowing people to un-back the game if they're upset can make that almost axiomatically true.  And, of course, it's better to launch a good game late than a bad game on time.
    tweedledumb99Lokero
  • some-clueless-guysome-clueless-guy Member UncommonPosts: 197
    How much content gets implemented during the next months will be a good indicator of whether or not the 2019 release is doable.
    All the time they wasted redoing the ability system, class design and art were still working in the background. So in theory, now we should be able to see the fruits of that "stockpiled" work entering the game quickly.

    In one/two months, seeing how much the build will have improved will give us a good perspective on how reliable they are.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,821
    How much content gets implemented during the next months will be a good indicator of whether or not the 2019 release is doable.
    All the time they wasted redoing the ability system, class design and art were still working in the background. So in theory, now we should be able to see the fruits of that "stockpiled" work entering the game quickly.

    In one/two months, seeing how much the build will have improved will give us a good perspective on how reliable they are.
    Time spent redoing mechanics that were previously implemented badly may be wasted if the only goal is for a game to launch, but it's often essential if the goal is for the game to be good.
    tweedledumb99Kyleranmeddyck
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,445
    Quizzical said:
    meddyck said:
    They are late for many other reasons than stretch goals (hiring difficulties, redoing the ability system, GDPR, etc). The idea with a stretch goal is that the cost of the stretch goal is used to pay for developers who can complete the stretch goal without affecting launch date.


    It seems that the consensus here is that this game hasn't suffered from mission creep.  Rather, the base game was far too ambitious to be done in the 32-month estimated timeframe.
    I also do not see creep as being an issue, at all.

    The majority of their development has been focused on developing their backbone systems and in-house tech.
    I don't know that I'd call it "too ambitious", as the game itself is really not that feature-heavy.  I mean, the game is almost exclusively focused on two things:  Crafting and PvP.
    I think the thing that was too ambitious was MJ himself.  Opening a studio in the middle-of-nowhere and having trouble hiring people, etc., has certainly come back to bite him.

    I think most people are supportive of the effort and time they've put into developing a high-quality, performant engine.  With their main systems being the "island" server setup, the Landmark-esque crafting, and the high player concentrations, performance will make or break this game.  So, they can't afford to rush that.

    As opposed to games like Crowfall, Pantheon, etc., who have just jumped into the public engines.  I think Crowfall has already had some pretty huge performance issues and had to majorly scale down their dreams of massive PvP battles and such due to diving straight into Unity.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,254
    Er, opening a studio in the middle of "no where?" 

    Fairfax, VA is located 19 miles outside of Washington,  DC.

    Just not a hotbed for game development.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760
    Kyleran said:
    Er, opening a studio in the middle of "no where?" 

    Fairfax, VA is located 19 miles outside of Washington,  DC.

    Just not a hotbed for game development.
    Fairfax is also one one the most expensive areas to live in.  Not sure how many game developers live there.  Seeing as it is so expensive.  
    KyleranQuizzical

    I've got the straight edge.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,498
    Would not bother me if the game was delayed to add some content, but when you start to type in caps rationality leaves the room. Rather than let the common sense of extra content peculate through I imagine he will stick to his word.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,254
    edited August 2018
    El-Hefe said:
    Kyleran said:
    Er, opening a studio in the middle of "no where?" 

    Fairfax, VA is located 19 miles outside of Washington,  DC.

    Just not a hotbed for game development.
    Fairfax is also one one the most expensive areas to live in.  Not sure how many game developers live there.  Seeing as it is so expensive.  
    True, very expensive area to live in, and my guess is indie developers can't exactly pay top end wages to cover it.

    Locating the studio there was probably the biggest error made in the early days which significantly hampered progress. 



    ScotQuizzical

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,498
    Kyleran said:
    El-Hefe said:
    Kyleran said:
    Er, opening a studio in the middle of "no where?" 

    Fairfax, VA is located 19 miles outside of Washington,  DC.

    Just not a hotbed for game development.
    Fairfax is also one one the most expensive areas to live in.  Not sure how many game developers live there.  Seeing as it is so expensive.  
    True, very expensive area to live in, and my guess is indie developers can't exactly pay top end wages to cover it.

    Locating the studio there was probably the biggest error made in the early days which significantly hampered progress. 



    Its not just getting the money in, it is about what it needs to be spent on. There are massive overheads in SC, this is an issue for any new company not just MMOs.

     25 Agrees

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    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,821
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    El-Hefe said:
    Kyleran said:
    Er, opening a studio in the middle of "no where?" 

    Fairfax, VA is located 19 miles outside of Washington,  DC.

    Just not a hotbed for game development.
    Fairfax is also one one the most expensive areas to live in.  Not sure how many game developers live there.  Seeing as it is so expensive.  
    True, very expensive area to live in, and my guess is indie developers can't exactly pay top end wages to cover it.

    Locating the studio there was probably the biggest error made in the early days which significantly hampered progress. 



    Its not just getting the money in, it is about what it needs to be spent on. There are massive overheads in SC, this is an issue for any new company not just MMOs.
    The reason that the Washington DC area is so expensive to live is that the US government is there.  It's not just that the politicians are there.  Many government agencies are also there.  People trying to sell some things to government agencies also need to be there.  Lobbyists need to be there--including people trying to lobby various regulatory agencies, not just the politicians.  And there's also a need for various goods and services that have to be done locally (e.g., restaurants) in order to provide them to all of the other people who have to be there.

    That means that you have a ton of people who have to be in the area, and too many people in too small of a space makes it an expensive area to live.  That makes it a dumb spot to put a business that doesn't somehow benefit from proximity to the US government.
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,869
    Quizzical said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    El-Hefe said:
    Kyleran said:
    Er, opening a studio in the middle of "no where?" 

    Fairfax, VA is located 19 miles outside of Washington,  DC.

    Just not a hotbed for game development.
    Fairfax is also one one the most expensive areas to live in.  Not sure how many game developers live there.  Seeing as it is so expensive.  
    True, very expensive area to live in, and my guess is indie developers can't exactly pay top end wages to cover it.

    Locating the studio there was probably the biggest error made in the early days which significantly hampered progress. 



    Its not just getting the money in, it is about what it needs to be spent on. There are massive overheads in SC, this is an issue for any new company not just MMOs.
    The reason that the Washington DC area is so expensive to live is that the US government is there.  It's not just that the politicians are there.  Many government agencies are also there.  People trying to sell some things to government agencies also need to be there.  Lobbyists need to be there--including people trying to lobby various regulatory agencies, not just the politicians.  And there's also a need for various goods and services that have to be done locally (e.g., restaurants) in order to provide them to all of the other people who have to be there.

    That means that you have a ton of people who have to be in the area, and too many people in too small of a space makes it an expensive area to live.  That makes it a dumb spot to put a business that doesn't somehow benefit from proximity to the US government.
    Honestly, I do not believe they planned a game as complex as what is now being developed.  I think they just planned to iterate on what they had for the Smackhammer stuff:



    That was something a small dev team could handle and the location probably wouldn't matter much.  Along the way I think they decided to really dive in and make this a full out game by building tech that could handle epic sieges.  That's when they ran into issues hiring and had to go start up a second office.

    I could be wrong, but that's what I have always felt. 
    meddyck

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,821
    It's also possible that they started the game studio there because that's where they happened to live and they didn't want to move.
    Kylerantweedledumb99meddyck
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 236
    Quizzical said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    El-Hefe said:
    Kyleran said:
    Er, opening a studio in the middle of "no where?" 

    Fairfax, VA is located 19 miles outside of Washington,  DC.

    Just not a hotbed for game development.
    Fairfax is also one one the most expensive areas to live in.  Not sure how many game developers live there.  Seeing as it is so expensive.  
    True, very expensive area to live in, and my guess is indie developers can't exactly pay top end wages to cover it.

    Locating the studio there was probably the biggest error made in the early days which significantly hampered progress. 



    Its not just getting the money in, it is about what it needs to be spent on. There are massive overheads in SC, this is an issue for any new company not just MMOs.
    The reason that the Washington DC area is so expensive to live is that the US government is there.  It's not just that the politicians are there.  Many government agencies are also there.  People trying to sell some things to government agencies also need to be there.  Lobbyists need to be there--including people trying to lobby various regulatory agencies, not just the politicians.  And there's also a need for various goods and services that have to be done locally (e.g., restaurants) in order to provide them to all of the other people who have to be there.

    That means that you have a ton of people who have to be in the area, and too many people in too small of a space makes it an expensive area to live.  That makes it a dumb spot to put a business that doesn't somehow benefit from proximity to the US government.
    Honestly, I do not believe they planned a game as complex as what is now being developed.  I think they just planned to iterate on what they had for the Smackhammer stuff:



    That was something a small dev team could handle and the location probably wouldn't matter much.  Along the way I think they decided to really dive in and make this a full out game by building tech that could handle epic sieges.  That's when they ran into issues hiring and had to go start up a second office.

    I could be wrong, but that's what I have always felt. 
    Quizzical said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    El-Hefe said:
    Kyleran said:
    Er, opening a studio in the middle of "no where?" 

    Fairfax, VA is located 19 miles outside of Washington,  DC.

    Just not a hotbed for game development.
    Fairfax is also one one the most expensive areas to live in.  Not sure how many game developers live there.  Seeing as it is so expensive.  
    True, very expensive area to live in, and my guess is indie developers can't exactly pay top end wages to cover it.

    Locating the studio there was probably the biggest error made in the early days which significantly hampered progress. 



    Its not just getting the money in, it is about what it needs to be spent on. There are massive overheads in SC, this is an issue for any new company not just MMOs.
    The reason that the Washington DC area is so expensive to live is that the US government is there.  It's not just that the politicians are there.  Many government agencies are also there.  People trying to sell some things to government agencies also need to be there.  Lobbyists need to be there--including people trying to lobby various regulatory agencies, not just the politicians.  And there's also a need for various goods and services that have to be done locally (e.g., restaurants) in order to provide them to all of the other people who have to be there.

    That means that you have a ton of people who have to be in the area, and too many people in too small of a space makes it an expensive area to live.  That makes it a dumb spot to put a business that doesn't somehow benefit from proximity to the US government.
    Honestly, I do not believe they planned a game as complex as what is now being developed.  I think they just planned to iterate on what they had for the Smackhammer stuff:



    That was something a small dev team could handle and the location probably wouldn't matter much.  Along the way I think they decided to really dive in and make this a full out game by building tech that could handle epic sieges.  That's when they ran into issues hiring and had to go start up a second office.

    I could be wrong, but that's what I have always felt. 
    I think they made a hard break between smackhammer and CU.

    They did the kickstarter to see if there was an appetite for a big rvr game with a whole wack of new and hard to code stuff, also to raise money. 

    This was a big decision, dont think it just snowballed from smackhammer.

    Curious why you think that.
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