Because time is accrued equally for everyone. Money is not. The resources are not at all similar.
That's not technically true, you can be as restrained in time as you can be as restrained in money.
This is why those who are playing +10 hours a day in MMO's are ASAP progression comparing to everyone else, there is no point on pretending there is equality of progression on the first place because there isn't.
This is why MMO's are so awfully balanced to casual players, they simply can't ever achieve end-game gear and such because the grind bars require obscene amounts of time investment.
Is that any fairer? I don't think it is.
Its an argument thats used a lot to justify all kinds of behaviour, as soon as you turn arguments around and look at things without that kind of a bias, you should easily see the pitfalls in your argument. Should hard work not be rewarded? should people who just buy things be given a significant advantage over people who are actually playing the game?
why is it fair, if someone pays money but its not fair if someone works hard?
Of course your also ignoring the one fact that should be staring you straight in the face, and its one that will trip you up every single time you use those kinds of dodgy arguments. What happens when someone puts in 10+ hours a day into the game AND buys the advantage? because lets face it, why wouldn't they?
And thats what happens when you use dodgy logic to make an argument, because your automatically assuming that someone who buys their advantage isn't also willing to work hard in the game, and thats why your argument about it being unfair if people play the game more than others is deeply flawed
Why do people who hate a game waste so much time commenting on it?
Maybe because they don't hate it? I know it's easier to just simplify and bundle everything with one characteristic.. but that doesn't mean it's accurate.
In CIG's defense, at least they are rate-limiting it per day. I still think it's misguided.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Its an argument thats used a lot to justify all kinds of behaviour, as soon as you turn arguments around and look at things without that kind of a bias, you should easily see the pitfalls in your argument. Should hard work not be rewarded? should people who just buy things be given a significant advantage over people who are actually playing the game?
why is it fair, if someone pays money but its not fair if someone works hard?
Of course your also ignoring the one fact that should be staring you straight in the face, and its one that will trip you up every single time you use those kinds of dodgy arguments. What happens when someone puts in 10+ hours a day into the game AND buys the advantage? because lets face it, why wouldn't they?
And thats what happens when you use dodgy logic to make an argument, because your automatically assuming that someone who buys their advantage isn't also willing to work hard in the game, and thats why your argument about it being unfair if people play the game more than others is deeply flawed
It's not to justify, it's just what it is, the time vs money revenue model in MMO's came to be because the grind bars were waaay too high for casual players, and if they made them possible to get for casuals the people who invested more time would rush through late-content ASAP then complain there's no more content, so they decided to cash in on giving the opportunity to speed up through grind with money, XP boost here and there and so forth.
None of this would have ever happened if there was a limit of hours you could play per day in MMO's, what of course would never happen.
It's not the argument that is flawed, it's our genre.
This is a commonly made argument in defense of 'pay to win', and it has never been satisfying to me. There are some flaws, here:
As @rpmcmurphy points out: if someone has more time to play the game, good for them. If someone wins a route to the top through circuitous trial and error, I hold nothing against them. On the other hand, if someone buys their way to the top through a means which has nothing at all to do with the game... very loosely I consider this cheating.
My second point is perhaps more subtle: in games that have much room for horizontal progression there isn't a 1 to 1 translation between Time and Money as if on an XY Cartesian plane; there are additional dimensions to consider. In a game with horizontal progression or one that relies on the skill of the player, you can't say "player X has had 3 weeks to play ahead of me, therefore I have a 3 week gap to make up". It's not as if the time spent in game is some form of literal currency, which whales are entitled to bypass through an equivalent exchange.
Aye good for them, no one ever said any differently, just that there will be people who can play more and when you encounter them in game they might very well have better stuff than you just like whales that buy stuff. Though, as pointed out by another, the whales may not be able to use their gear as well, so honestly having more time to play makes you the superior player (as it well should).
For your second point, you're right, with horizontal progression, a 3 week gap could be a whole lot more than what a whale could bypass through an equivalent exchange, especially in game like SC is supposed to be, so the whale would be at a disadvantage.
But all of this aside, why does it sound like everyone who's arguing against it thinks this game is going to be entirely PvP. I plan on spending as much time as possible not interacting with other players (besides personal friends).
But all of this aside, why does it sound like everyone who's arguing against it thinks this game is going to be entirely PvP. I plan on spending as much time as possible not interacting with other players (besides personal friends).
So much this!
Everyone in this thread seems to be running by the assumption SC is a PvP MMO of the sorts of EvE Online, its point and drive being PvP. But when SC continues being stated as 90% AI 10% Players, even for its economy, as stated even if you wanted to focus fully on PvP you couldn't because as part of the game design you're not supposed to tell the difference between a player ship and one AI ship (without hailing it first at least).
Its an argument thats used a lot to justify all kinds of behaviour, as soon as you turn arguments around and look at things without that kind of a bias, you should easily see the pitfalls in your argument. Should hard work not be rewarded? should people who just buy things be given a significant advantage over people who are actually playing the game?
why is it fair, if someone pays money but its not fair if someone works hard?
Of course your also ignoring the one fact that should be staring you straight in the face, and its one that will trip you up every single time you use those kinds of dodgy arguments. What happens when someone puts in 10+ hours a day into the game AND buys the advantage? because lets face it, why wouldn't they?
And thats what happens when you use dodgy logic to make an argument, because your automatically assuming that someone who buys their advantage isn't also willing to work hard in the game, and thats why your argument about it being unfair if people play the game more than others is deeply flawed
It's not to justify, it's just what it is, the time vs money revenue model in MMO's came to be because the grind bars were waaay too high for casual players, and if they made them possible to get for casuals the people who invested more time would rush through late-content ASAP then complain there's no more content, so they decided to cash in on giving the opportunity to speed up through grind with money, XP boost here and there and so forth.
None of this would have ever happened if there was a limit of hours you could play per day in MMO's, what of course would never happen.
It's the argument that is flawed, it's our genre.
You hear that people, stop playing games now! your just making things worse!
You hear that people, stop playing games now! your just making things worse!
But it's true now isn't it?
If there wasn't people playing MMO's obsessively to rush through get the best gear and the best everything, there wouldn't be the need to impose daunting grind bars to achieve it, with it, crushing the souls of casual players who can't dedicate the time.
Because time is accrued equally for everyone. Money is not. The resources are not at all similar.
That's not technically true, you can be as restrained in time as you can be as restrained in money.
This is why those who are playing +10 hours a day in MMO's are ASAP progression comparing to everyone else, there is no point on pretending there is equality of progression on the first place because there isn't.
This is why MMO's are so awfully balanced to casual players, they simply can't ever achieve end-game gear and such because the grind bars require obscene amounts of time investment.
Is that any fairer? I don't think it is.
No, it is. You can be restrained on money too, but you also may not even accrue as much as the next guy.
Because time is accrued equally for everyone. Money is not. The resources are not at all similar.
But if they can obtain the same result, what does it matter? Unless you are aiming to be the first person to the finish line (in this case we don't know what the finish line is but I'm assuming you're thinking it's top gear) why do you care?
Its an argument thats used a lot to justify all kinds of behaviour, as soon as you turn arguments around and look at things without that kind of a bias, you should easily see the pitfalls in your argument. Should hard work not be rewarded? should people who just buy things be given a significant advantage over people who are actually playing the game?
why is it fair, if someone pays money but its not fair if someone works hard?
Of course your also ignoring the one fact that should be staring you straight in the face, and its one that will trip you up every single time you use those kinds of dodgy arguments. What happens when someone puts in 10+ hours a day into the game AND buys the advantage? because lets face it, why wouldn't they?
And thats what happens when you use dodgy logic to make an argument, because your automatically assuming that someone who buys their advantage isn't also willing to work hard in the game, and thats why your argument about it being unfair if people play the game more than others is deeply flawed
It's not to justify, it's just what it is, the time vs money revenue model in MMO's came to be because the grind bars were waaay too high for casual players, and if they made them possible to get for casuals the people who invested more time would rush through late-content ASAP then complain there's no more content, so they decided to cash in on giving the opportunity to speed up through grind with money, XP boost here and there and so forth.
None of this would have ever happened if there was a limit of hours you could play per day in MMO's, what of course would never happen.
It's not the argument that is flawed, it's our genre.
I don't believe that the time vs money argument came about because of casuals and the amount of grind required in games. Look at how many people have complained about games being dumbed down over the years, look at WoW these days and all the claims of it being dumbed down, that's what catering to larger market (aka casuals) has caused.
The time vs money factor has its roots elsewhere, most likely with the people who played hardcore back in the late 90's, who are now busy with careers and families and all the rest of it, the money rich/time poor crowd. They strike me as the more likely candidates willing to pay to relive the fun of their teens.
Because time is accrued equally for everyone. Money is not. The resources are not at all similar.
But if they can obtain the same result, what does it matter? Unless you are aiming to be the first person to the finish line (in this case we don't know what the finish line is but I'm assuming you're thinking it's top gear) why do you care?
Do you think this game is going to be mostly PvP?
Because I'm not a fan of bringing RL socioeconomic stratification into gaming.
Players that spend more time get further, which isn't really an issue, because video games are entertainment. That's the entire goal: to spend time enjoying yourself. The goal isn't to spend money in and of itself. If that were the case, you could just throw the bills out the window while driving to work and save yourself the time.
No, the entire point of the hobby is to expend time in an enjoyable way.
Their financials show they are spending a lot I guess this change will bring in more money. It makes sense.
One person commented that all their offices are in expensive areas.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
But all of this aside, why does it sound like everyone who's arguing against it thinks this game is going to be entirely PvP. I plan on spending as much time as possible not interacting with other players (besides personal friends).
But nobody is. People were claiming that wallet warrior wayne would not affect other people, so a few PvP examples were given for a game that is open world PvP to show that there is a good chance it would affect people. No one is saying the whole game is solely PvP.
Because time is accrued equally for everyone. Money is not. The resources are not at all similar.
That's not technically true, you can be as restrained in time as you can be as restrained in money.
This is why those who are playing +10 hours a day in MMO's are ASAP progression comparing to everyone else, there is no point on pretending there is equality of progression on the first place because there isn't.
This is why MMO's are so awfully balanced to casual players, they simply can't ever achieve end-game gear and such because the grind bars require obscene amounts of time investment.
Is that any fairer? I don't think it is.
No, it is. You can be restrained on money too, but you also may not even accrue as much as the next guy.
Time is constant. For everyone, everywhere.
Generally speaking, this is deeply untrue. However, considering no one playing Star Citizen will be traveling at 0.9c or across large gravity well gradients I'll agree.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I don't believe that the time vs money argument came about because of casuals and the amount of grind required in games. Look at how many people have complained about games being dumbed down over the years, look at WoW these days and all the claims of it being dumbed down, that's what catering to larger market (aka casuals) has caused.
The time vs money factor has its roots elsewhere, most likely with the people who played hardcore back in the late 90's, who are now busy with careers and families and all the rest of it, the money rich/time poor crowd. They strike me as the more likely candidates willing to pay to relive the fun of their teens.
Well it is a mix of things, but see in one side you have the people who dedicate a lot of time are capable to achieve stuff very quickly, and MMO's is this genre where players can play the same MMO for years, so there is a pressure to add stuff to grind for that can last for years. This instantly does not cope with casuals if you ever want to achieve that type of end-game stuff with the time you are willing to dedicate to the game. I'm not sure also what was the trigger, but there is a rather core flaw to MMO's on this aspect that got monetized.
Why do people who hate a game waste so much time commenting on it? Why do people slow down to stare at a car wreck?
I'm
just hoping this damn thing turns out great for the Gamers, and if it
does I'll play it until the next 'Star Citizen' comes out.
Gut Out!
Well people slow down to stare at a car wreck because of sheer curiosity, to check if people are ok and such.
They don't feel the need to open their window to shout "bet you were speeding, got what you deserved" even if they might think about it lol
That's the equivalent of what trolls and haters usually do in any Star Citizen related forum.
Like there's a lot of people that just read about Star Citizen because of all the fuss around it without ever posting because they know they have nothing positive to add, the majority of people reads more than post.
But as repetitive and redundant these discussions are at least we got people actually talking about what will happen after the game releases instead of the old "scam, vapourware, this game will never come out"
Because time is accrued equally for everyone. Money is not. The resources are not at all similar.
That's not technically true, you can be as restrained in time as you can be as restrained in money.
This is why those who are playing +10 hours a day in MMO's are ASAP progression comparing to everyone else, there is no point on pretending there is equality of progression on the first place because there isn't.
This is why MMO's are so awfully balanced to casual players, they simply can't ever achieve end-game gear and such because the grind bars require obscene amounts of time investment.
Is that any fairer? I don't think it is.
No, it is. You can be restrained on money too, but you also may not even accrue as much as the next guy.
Time is constant. For everyone, everywhere.
Time, money, and level of commitment decides how much energy is put into a game.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Because time is accrued equally for everyone. Money is not. The resources are not at all similar.
That's not technically true, you can be as restrained in time as you can be as restrained in money.
This is why those who are playing +10 hours a day in MMO's are ASAP progression comparing to everyone else, there is no point on pretending there is equality of progression on the first place because there isn't.
This is why MMO's are so awfully balanced to casual players, they simply can't ever achieve end-game gear and such because the grind bars require obscene amounts of time investment.
Is that any fairer? I don't think it is.
No, it is. You can be restrained on money too, but you also may not even accrue as much as the next guy.
Time is constant. For everyone, everywhere.
Generally speaking, this is deeply untrue. However, considering no one playing Star Citizen will be traveling at 0.9c or across large gravity well gradients I'll agree.
You should say technically I think, as everyone on Earth (the vast majority of all known living things) experiences no noticeable difference in time passage.
Because time is accrued equally for everyone. Money is not. The resources are not at all similar.
That's not technically true, you can be as restrained in time as you can be as restrained in money.
This is why those who are playing +10 hours a day in MMO's are ASAP progression comparing to everyone else, there is no point on pretending there is equality of progression on the first place because there isn't.
This is why MMO's are so awfully balanced to casual players, they simply can't ever achieve end-game gear and such because the grind bars require obscene amounts of time investment.
Is that any fairer? I don't think it is.
No, it is. You can be restrained on money too, but you also may not even accrue as much as the next guy.
Time is constant. For everyone, everywhere.
Time, money, and level of commitment decides how much energy is put into a game.
I don't disagree. But to suggest time and money are similar resources to spend in a game is disingenuous, at best. Usually leveraged to justify folks paying for items they didn't in any way find or earn through gameplay.
Because I'm not a fan of bringing RL socioeconomic stratification into gaming.
Players that spend more time get further, which isn't really an issue, because video games are entertainment. That's the entire goal: to spend time enjoying yourself. The goal isn't to spend money in and of itself. If that were the case, you could just throw the bills out the window while driving to work and save yourself the time.
No, the entire point of the hobby is to expend time in an enjoyable way.
Then don't buy anything! If some jackhole wants to drop 5 billion dollars bypassing a time sink, that's his prerogative.
Maybe having the shiniest ship in the game ASAP is how he enjoys spending his time? It might be a silly reason but it's HIS reason and you're telling him he can't enjoy the game that way.
This isn't supposed to be a PvP centered game anyway.
But all of this aside, why does it sound like everyone who's arguing against it thinks this game is going to be entirely PvP. I plan on spending as much time as possible not interacting with other players (besides personal friends).
But nobody is. People were claiming that wallet warrior wayne would not affect other people, so a few PvP examples were given for a game that is open world PvP to show that there is a good chance it would affect people. No one is saying the whole game is solely PvP.
You can't have your cake and eat it too here man. A handful of you guys are building your arguments off of insinuating that the game will be largely PvP centered. If you don't think it will be, that's fine, but then, if that's the case, the support for a lot of past comments gets totally ripped out from underneath them.
What it ends up boiling down to is "I don't want this guy to have this because I don't have it, even though it doesn't really affect me."
Comments
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
why is it fair, if someone pays money but its not fair if someone works hard?
Of course your also ignoring the one fact that should be staring you straight in the face, and its one that will trip you up every single time you use those kinds of dodgy arguments.
What happens when someone puts in 10+ hours a day into the game AND buys the advantage? because lets face it, why wouldn't they?
And thats what happens when you use dodgy logic to make an argument, because your automatically assuming that someone who buys their advantage isn't also willing to work hard in the game, and thats why your argument about it being unfair if people play the game more than others is deeply flawed
I know it's easier to just simplify and bundle everything with one characteristic.. but that doesn't mean it's accurate.
..Cake..
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
None of this would have ever happened if there was a limit of hours you could play per day in MMO's, what of course would never happen.
It's not the argument that is flawed, it's our genre.
For your second point, you're right, with horizontal progression, a 3 week gap could be a whole lot more than what a whale could bypass through an equivalent exchange, especially in game like SC is supposed to be, so the whale would be at a disadvantage.
But all of this aside, why does it sound like everyone who's arguing against it thinks this game is going to be entirely PvP. I plan on spending as much time as possible not interacting with other players (besides personal friends).
Everyone in this thread seems to be running by the assumption SC is a PvP MMO of the sorts of EvE Online, its point and drive being PvP. But when SC continues being stated as 90% AI 10% Players, even for its economy, as stated even if you wanted to focus fully on PvP you couldn't because as part of the game design you're not supposed to tell the difference between a player ship and one AI ship (without hailing it first at least).
If there wasn't people playing MMO's obsessively to rush through get the best gear and the best everything, there wouldn't be the need to impose daunting grind bars to achieve it, with it, crushing the souls of casual players who can't dedicate the time.
Time is constant. For everyone, everywhere.
Do you think this game is going to be mostly PvP?
The time vs money factor has its roots elsewhere, most likely with the people who played hardcore back in the late 90's, who are now busy with careers and families and all the rest of it, the money rich/time poor crowd. They strike me as the more likely candidates willing to pay to relive the fun of their teens.
Players that spend more time get further, which isn't really an issue, because video games are entertainment. That's the entire goal: to spend time enjoying yourself. The goal isn't to spend money in and of itself. If that were the case, you could just throw the bills out the window while driving to work and save yourself the time.
No, the entire point of the hobby is to expend time in an enjoyable way.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Maybe having the shiniest ship in the game ASAP is how he enjoys spending his time? It might be a silly reason but it's HIS reason and you're telling him he can't enjoy the game that way.
This isn't supposed to be a PvP centered game anyway.
What it ends up boiling down to is "I don't want this guy to have this because I don't have it, even though it doesn't really affect me."