The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
Exactly. Some folks just want to shift 100% of the accountability on the consumer and that is just not right. A consumer should be able to expect that what a company states when selling their product is at least reasonably correct. If you have no confidence in a date then DO NOT GIVE ONE. If that hurts your fundraising then TOUGH SHIT. But saying that a project will take 18 months and then unilaterally deciding to extend production to 4+ years is just not right. I do not know what a fair solution is. But I do think that it's a legitimate issue that is only getting worse.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I have a solution. If you don't like paying for games without knowing when they'll release, then don't.
Have you ever celebrated mother's day? Father's day? Had a dinner with your SO for Valentine's Day? Worn deodorant?
Then you've fallen prey to the same influences of marketing folks who buy into these EA/Crowdfunding titles have. I've said elsewhere, giving it this reaction is essentially: "I don't feel it affects me directly, so I refuse to give it deeper thought." That's your right, but it makes you poorly qualified to address the issue in general.
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
what you said does nothing to refute his statement. . .I don't celebrate father's day because I don't want to. . . (your favorite tactic in forum PvP seems to be to sound reasonably intelligent on a point that has nothing to do with what is being discussed)
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
Exactly. Some folks just want to shift 100% of the accountability on the consumer and that is just not right. A consumer should be able to expect that what a company states when selling their product is at least reasonably correct. If you have no confidence in a date then DO NOT GIVE ONE. If that hurts your fundraising then TOUGH SHIT. But saying that a project will take 18 months and then unilaterally deciding to extend production to 4+ years is just not right. I do not know what a fair solution is. But I do think that it's a legitimate issue that is only getting worse.
The accountability needs to fall on the developer if there was malicious practice, no intent to deliver or meet a target, and situations as that. On situations that the attempt was clearly made yet it still resulted on delays or even on the failure to materialize a project on its entirety, then there come the risks of the whole thing.
If people did stop treating crowdfunding as a Pre-Order platform maybe they would have more realistic expectations of what they are getting themselves into.
Crowdfunding should have as much accountability as proper Investments, it is the only reasonable solution that fits some extent of its reality.
Turn gamer entitlement into informed gamers and we'll see this issue fading away.
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
Exactly. Some folks just want to shift 100% of the accountability on the consumer and that is just not right. A consumer should be able to expect that what a company states when selling their product is at least reasonably correct. If you have no confidence in a date then DO NOT GIVE ONE. If that hurts your fundraising then TOUGH SHIT. But saying that a project will take 18 months and then unilaterally deciding to extend production to 4+ years is just not right. I do not know what a fair solution is. But I do think that it's a legitimate issue that is only getting worse.
The accountability needs to fall on the developer if there was malicious practice, no intent to deliver or meet a target, and situations as that. On situations that the attempt was clearly made yet it still resulted on delays or even on the failure to materialize a project on its entirety, then there come the risks of the whole thing.
If people did stop treating crowdfunding as a Pre-Order platform maybe they would have more realistic expectations of what they are getting themselves into.
Crowdfunding should have as much accountability as proper Investments, it is the only reasonable solution that fits some extent of its reality.
Don’t give a date you can’t hit. Or expect some kind of negative penalty for your failure. Nobody says you have to have a date to raise money. It’s just a marketing tool because they would raise far less money by saying delivery TBD instead of 18 months.
Yes, Kickstarter requires a date. So don’t use Kickstarter unless you can get reasonably close to the date. Putting in a date you know is wrong “because Kickstarter made us put a date” is fraudulent IMHO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Vague release games on Pre-Orders and soon marketings sure can be regulated.
Now crowdfunded titles can't be seen as pre-orders when it comes to obey by this because of their very nature, from the moment you actually fund it, all they can give you is a vague estimate of the release, there is no realistic way to provide something accurate. Unlike normal Pre-Orders that are usually just months away, Crowdfunding is years away.
If you want them to give "accurate dates", then all you'll get are dates that will be delayed, same outcome one way or the other, a regulation will not magically make it so delays won't happen, and if imposed, it will just force devs to release what is not on a releasable state.
I disagree Max, in crowd funding examples devs should provide reasonable delivery estimates, heck, they can pad them long if they wish, but they should be held accountable if grossly negligent.
Even if a totally unexpected event occurs like zombie apocalypse or comet strike, they should have the good graces to dust themselves off, reforecast a new reasonable date and......be willing to refund those looking to do so, especially if the delays are the fault of the developer.
You say there is no way to be accurate. Back in 2012 when many of these Kickstarters started I publically stated a full featured MMORPG could not be delivered in 2 years, not through any great knowledge, history was against thinking otherwise.
But devs believed it would hurt their fund raising to say, likely 4 to 6 years, or "we don't know, we'll get back to you with a date in 3 years" so they flat out lied IMO, or were totally delusional.
Again, tell the truth, then I don't care who contributes to what, or offer refunds if promise are grossly not met.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don’t give a date you can’t hit. Or expect some kind of negative penalty for your failure. Nobody says you have to have a date to raise money. It’s just a marketing tool because they would raise far less money by saying delivery TBD instead of 18 months.
Yes, Kickstarter requires a date. So don’t use Kickstarter unless you can get reasonably close to the date. Putting in a date you know is wrong “because Kickstarter made us put a date” is fraudulent IMHO.
But you don't know what will happen, the problem with game dev is that is no exact science.
Even construction of a skyscraper is a proper exact science everything is designed and the plans are all there, you already know what and how, it only takes an easier prediction that is estimating the building process, and even that gets off by years for many possible different reasons.
Game dev is waaay too unstable, so many variables, so many things that can or can't happen, especially because on crowdfunding the game dev has early access phases where the feedback from community and so forfh will impact the design, force changes and so forfh. The only way the dates can get realistic is if the date takes priority over any quality standards, but when that happens, the result ain't pretty.
I disagree Max, in crowd funding examples devs should provide reasonable delivery estimates, heck, they can pad them long if they wish, but they should be held accountable if grossly negligent.
Even if a totally unexpected event occurs like zombie apocalypse or comet strike, they should have the good graces to dust themselves off, reforecast a new reasonable date and......be willing to refund those looking to do so, especially if the delays are the fault of the developer.
I will double disagree, it has to stand within reasonable stands as to how game dev flows, because people seem to uphold crowdfunded games in dev to different standards to mainstream game dev where you do not fund or pre-buy the game, demanding crowdfunded titles to be somehow more accurate than mainstream game dev is, but the same realities happen one way or the other.
As for refunds and such on crowdfunding is another thing more related to gamer entitlement than reason, on cases where you had to fully fund your project via crowdfunding, the pledges of your backers will be EARNED, and while you might just shut your hears and just go "lalalalala I don't care devs should refund anyway", it won't change there are things that are possible, and things that aren't. Once again, gamers need to assume there are risks and stay away if they just expect this sort of guarantees over their pledges (like I said, why Paypal did stop issuing buyer protection for crowdfunding).
Don’t give a date you can’t hit. Or expect some kind of negative penalty for your failure. Nobody says you have to have a date to raise money. It’s just a marketing tool because they would raise far less money by saying delivery TBD instead of 18 months.
Yes, Kickstarter requires a date. So don’t use Kickstarter unless you can get reasonably close to the date. Putting in a date you know is wrong “because Kickstarter made us put a date” is fraudulent IMHO.
But you don't know what will happen, the problem with game dev is that is no exact science.
Even construction of a skyscraper is a proper exact science everything is designed and the plans are all there, you already know what and how, it only takes an easier prediction that is estimating the building process, and even that gets off by years for many possible different reasons.
Game dev is waaay too unstable, so many variables, so many things that can or can't happen, especially because on crowdfunding the game dev has early access phases where the feedback from community and so forfh will impact the design, force changes and so forfh. The only way the dates can get realistic is if the date takes priority over any quality standards, but when that happens, the result ain't pretty.
Maybe you missed it the prior times I said this so I'll say it one last time for you: If it's "too hard" to give a date THEN DO NOT GIVE ONE. If you give one, then expect to have at least some minimal accountability for that date.
See how much money they raise when instead of a date they state:
We have no estimated date because "Game dev is waaay too unstable, so many variables, so many things that can or can't happen, especially because on crowdfunding the game dev has early access phases where the feedback from community and so forfh will impact the design, force changes and so forfh. "
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maybe you missed it the prior times I said this so I'll say it one last time for you: If it's "too hard" to give a date THEN DO NOT GIVE ONE. If you give one, then expect to have at least some minimal accountability for that date.
See how much money they raise when instead of a date they state:
We have no estimated date because "Game dev is waaay too unstable, so many variables, so many things that can or can't happen, especially because on crowdfunding the game dev has early access phases where the feedback from community and so forfh will impact the design, force changes and so forfh. "
But they have to, there is always I think even Kickstarter requires that, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have projects where the devs just give the dates they CAN give, like "X date for Alpha" and when the alpha goes on and they can give the date for a beta, and like that until release, then yes you have a level of accuracy that is currently a hit-a-miss because they try to predict releases on a timeframe of years while they are still very early in-dev.
But then again, is it viable for a crowdfunded title to exist with the refusal to give a release date? Because if not and the project gets no support, then it's a no-go anyway you'll always be under pressure to give something otherwise you'll fail right before you start. Though reality.
Maybe you missed it the prior times I said this so I'll say it one last time for you: If it's "too hard" to give a date THEN DO NOT GIVE ONE. If you give one, then expect to have at least some minimal accountability for that date.
See how much money they raise when instead of a date they state:
We have no estimated date because "Game dev is waaay too unstable, so many variables, so many things that can or can't happen, especially because on crowdfunding the game dev has early access phases where the feedback from community and so forfh will impact the design, force changes and so forfh. "
But they have to, there is always I think even Kickstarter requires that, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have projects where the devs just give the dates they CAN give, like "X date for Alpha" and when the alpha goes on and they can give the date for a beta, and like that until release, then yes you have a level of accuracy that is currently a hit-a-miss because they try to predict releases on a timeframe of years while they are still very early in-dev.
But then again, is it viable for a crowdfunded title to exist with the refusal to give a release date? Because if not and the project gets no support, then it's a no-go anyway you'll always be under pressure to give something otherwise you'll fail right before you start. Though reality.
Think what you are saying: They have to give a date to Kickstarter. So they should just make one up with no realistic expectation to hit it. Here is a hint... that would be fraud.
Nobody says you have to use Kickstarter to Crowdfund. Maybe it should only be for projects that have confidence in their plans and are willing to be held accountable.
If the game is only getting funded because they are using a fake, unachievable release date, then maybe they don't deserve to be funded. Honesty is the best policy. If you don't have confidence that what you are saying is true, then do not say it.
The ends do not justify the means.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Think what you are saying: They have to give a date to Kickstarter. So they should just make one up with no realistic expectation to hit it. Here is a hint... that would be fraud.
Nobody says you have to use Kickstarter to Crowdfund. Maybe it should only be for projects that have confidence in their plans and are willing to be held accountable.
If the game is only getting funded because they are using a fake, unachievable release date, then maybe they don't deserve to be funded. Honesty is the best policy. If you don't have confidence that what you are saying is true, then do not say it.
If you worked in one office or planning, or even architecture, every estimate that I ever ran into, was by standard optimistic, and many things do not really derail from that estimate because it's more exact and easy to predict... of course this is not case of game dev, the game dev studios work exactly the same way crowdfunded or not, simply there is a huge amount of variables that will happen through the process that will define how long it will take.
And I understand why offices work with more aggressive timelines because it's part of the whole office strategy to gain momentum and motivation, if you give a very conservative relaxed date to have a large margin when issues arise, studies I've read show that the work will actually last longer, so management never wants to give that way and create a longer-lasting negative effect through their work because of relaxation, rather messy thing tbh.
The only reasonable thing is not having a date from the ground-up and only give one when they can, and this is what mainstream devs do, but seems Crowdfunding is unable to get away with it and is always under pressure to announce release dates.
New MMOs will have to set ridiculous latest dates to abide by this, I find it astonishing that they want to crack down on something indie devs find very hard to control, while gambling in gaming which they control directly seems to be fading from memory.
I see both sides. Maybe it just brings into question the entire concept of Crowdfunding such a product.
Well CF is a poor fit with MMOs, but some have no choice, so until something better comes up I think its a reasonable choice. If they get good investment though they should halt the CF, that puts them on a far better footing for fairness and they can still honour the CF up to that point.
I don't agree with the 'no choice' part. That choice is to not build the game. It's more a matter of 'but I want to' winning over pragmatic issues (not having enough funding). That's partly why we seem to be getting half-made games.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
Exactly. Some folks just want to shift 100% of the accountability on the consumer and that is just not right. A consumer should be able to expect that what a company states when selling their product is at least reasonably correct. If you have no confidence in a date then DO NOT GIVE ONE. If that hurts your fundraising then TOUGH SHIT. But saying that a project will take 18 months and then unilaterally deciding to extend production to 4+ years is just not right. I do not know what a fair solution is. But I do think that it's a legitimate issue that is only getting worse.
actually I do, if the date for the thing is over the consumer will get refund without any problem in case he want, and be tankfull its not with interests
The only reasonable thing is not having a date from the ground-up and only give one when they can, and this is what mainstream devs do, but seems Crowdfunding is unable to get away with it and is always under pressure to announce release dates.
I would say it's because reality ("we don't know when it will be done") does not sell. But again, the ends do not justify the means. If you don't know, then say that. IMHO there is no excuse for putting out a date that you do not believe you can reasonably achieve. That, IMHO... is fraud.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Don’t give a date you can’t hit. Or expect some kind of negative penalty for your failure. Nobody says you have to have a date to raise money. It’s just a marketing tool because they would raise far less money by saying delivery TBD instead of 18 months.
Yes, Kickstarter requires a date. So don’t use Kickstarter unless you can get reasonably close to the date. Putting in a date you know is wrong “because Kickstarter made us put a date” is fraudulent IMHO.
But you don't know what will happen, the problem with game dev is that is no exact science.
Even construction of a skyscraper is a proper exact science everything is designed and the plans are all there, you already know what and how, it only takes an easier prediction that is estimating the building process, and even that gets off by years for many possible different reasons.
Game dev is waaay too unstable, so many variables, so many things that can or can't happen, especially because on crowdfunding the game dev has early access phases where the feedback from community and so forfh will impact the design, force changes and so forfh. The only way the dates can get realistic is if the date takes priority over any quality standards, but when that happens, the result ain't pretty.
Software development is relatively predictable, though. You may not get a 100% accurate date, but most good companies can predict how long a certain amount of work will take their team to deliver. And certainly almost every company knows how much money they are willing to commit to that target.
This is what confuses me about crowdfunding, the developers can't hit a date they provide then ask for more funding. What exactly instills confidence in the consumer that these developers aren't going to miss the next target. Without some accountability, this practice will continue, with some current development efforts appearing more and more like a scam.
Projection of any creative product is difficult. But in normal engineering environments from bridge building to software development, the person who projects badly costs the company money, and possibly their job. That's the 'out' that crowdfunding is providing -- the ability to preserve the job of people who may not have any idea about Project Management and avoid the company putting money into a failed project. Crowdfunding may not have started like this, but from the outside, it certainly looks like it is becoming a way to bypass the repercussions of failure.
Without some kind of regulation, unscrupulous companies are likely to continue looking at their customers as a never-ending source of income. With that kind of attitude and a lack of enforced accountability, crowdfunding is going to be used to protect companies, developers, projects and ideas that *might* actually should fail.
Crowdfunding is a case where government (enforcement, laws, and education) failed to keep up with new ideas that businesses invent. It's like Texting While Driving. It's has taken laws, public education and an emphasis on enforcement for people to realize that TWD is really a bad idea.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Software development is relatively predictable, though. You may not get a 100% accurate date, but most good companies can predict how long a certain amount of work will take their team to deliver. And certainly almost every company knows how much money they are willing to commit to that target.
No no it's the opposite when the budget is fixed they have to play safe, if not they have to do giveaways, larger projects especially things like MMO's don't have that margin.
When a company like Ubisoft is doing a new Assassin's Creed, it's very predictable because they already have one engine ready with the mechanics they need and all that, they won't go through the worse phase that is where you create technology, research & development of features/tech, etc.. etc... So it's mostly about the art work where even if you fall behind you can just simply throw more resources at it.
Large companies do not publish dates publicly until the release is close enough, so this gives the wrong perception of how certain development is, and for example I know friends working in Rockstar in RDR2 and that title they literally don't work with a release date for the title itself, only for their own internal milestones, when the company is read, they'll announce when. GTA V is another example even tho it took 5 years it still had a more relaxed approach where they could take their time to create one more challenging game because they could afford it and there was little pressure internally towards that release, after all, with a game with the sale prospects of GTA they won't be imposing on that aspect.
Companies like Blizzard on the Project Titan (the successor to WoW) that gets canned, people don't see what happened from something that was meant to be one MMO, it ended up as what we today know as Overwatch, that's just how uncertain and ugly dev can be, and you rarely ever see that publicly happening even tho it does happen.
So it's not about good or bad companies, it's about how many risks you are willing to take, and sadly, crowdfunded MMO's are taking more ambition and risks (especially on the unproven design section) than usually the larger publisher/studios that have far more resources and experience to handle such projects are willing to take.
I have a solution. If you don't like paying for games without knowing when they'll release, then don't.
Have you ever celebrated mother's day? Father's day? Had a dinner with your SO for Valentine's Day? Worn deodorant?
Then you've fallen prey to the same influences of marketing folks who buy into these EA/Crowdfunding titles have. I've said elsewhere, giving it this reaction is essentially: "I don't feel it affects me directly, so I refuse to give it deeper thought." That's your right, but it makes you poorly qualified to address the issue in general.
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
The problem isn't that the game developer is hiding information from you. The problem is that the game developer doesn't know when the game will be ready, either. They could stick an arbitrary date on something and declare it a launch, but a pre-alpha game that is nominally launched isn't really what you're looking for.
If you wait until after a game launches before paying for it, there isn't any ambiguity about future release dates. You pay today, and you get to play today, as soon as you're done with the download. If you pay for a game before the promise is that you'll get to play immediately, then you know full well that you don't know when--if ever--the game will really be ready for you.
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
Exactly. Some folks just want to shift 100% of the accountability on the consumer and that is just not right. A consumer should be able to expect that what a company states when selling their product is at least reasonably correct. If you have no confidence in a date then DO NOT GIVE ONE. If that hurts your fundraising then TOUGH SHIT. But saying that a project will take 18 months and then unilaterally deciding to extend production to 4+ years is just not right. I do not know what a fair solution is. But I do think that it's a legitimate issue that is only getting worse.
The accountability needs to fall on the developer if there was malicious practice, no intent to deliver or meet a target, and situations as that. On situations that the attempt was clearly made yet it still resulted on delays or even on the failure to materialize a project on its entirety, then there come the risks of the whole thing.
If people did stop treating crowdfunding as a Pre-Order platform maybe they would have more realistic expectations of what they are getting themselves into.
Crowdfunding should have as much accountability as proper Investments, it is the only reasonable solution that fits some extent of its reality.
Don’t give a date you can’t hit. Or expect some kind of negative penalty for your failure. Nobody says you have to have a date to raise money. It’s just a marketing tool because they would raise far less money by saying delivery TBD instead of 18 months.
Yes, Kickstarter requires a date. So don’t use Kickstarter unless you can get reasonably close to the date. Putting in a date you know is wrong “because Kickstarter made us put a date” is fraudulent IMHO.
The problem is that, with any programming project, there's never a date that you know 100% that you can hit unless the game is already done. That you're paying for something that you don't know when it will be delivered is intrinsic to paying for a game that isn't done yet. There's no way around it. That's why I said, if you're not willing to accept that risk, then don't do it.
Software development is relatively predictable, though. You may not get a 100% accurate date, but most good companies can predict how long a certain amount of work will take their team to deliver. And certainly almost every company knows how much money they are willing to commit to that target.
Well yes, outside of gaming, software companies can predict how long it will take for things to be done. And they often end up wildly wrong. For example, how many years was Windows Vista delayed by again?
And that's for an enormous company with a ton of experience and a basically unlimited budget. It gets harder when some of the people on your project are novices, when you're trying to do something wildly different from what has been done before, or when you're on a tight budget not knowing if you even have enough money to finish.
Foolishness IMO. Too many people want everything courtified. Don't give us a firm date - legal action. Give us a firm date, but miss it - legal action. I've seen both these arguments on these very forums. This is development and latest dates don't work. Things happen.
People are always complaining that companies don't listen to them when they make suggestions, however, if they do listen and make changes, it's gonna delay release.
I worked for a large company and we had to put on training classes for promotions. People kept calling and asking when will the class start, so they could change vacation plans if needed. But putting on a class was a celestial event. Several related departments had to approve and lots of bosses had to sign off on it. Some of them were out of town so we had to wait for them to come back. The budget department had us wait a few weeks for the next quarter to start and a thousand other things had to be co-ordinated. So I know what it's like to want to give a date or to keep changing dates when a lot of things are just out of your hands.
The larger the company the longer it can take for things to come together, unless you have a Bill Gates or Steve Jobs who can just make a call and stuff happens.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I have a solution. If you don't like paying for games without knowing when they'll release, then don't.
Have you ever celebrated mother's day? Father's day? Had a dinner with your SO for Valentine's Day? Worn deodorant?
Then you've fallen prey to the same influences of marketing folks who buy into these EA/Crowdfunding titles have. I've said elsewhere, giving it this reaction is essentially: "I don't feel it affects me directly, so I refuse to give it deeper thought." That's your right, but it makes you poorly qualified to address the issue in general.
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
what you said does nothing to refute his statement. . .I don't celebrate father's day because I don't want to. . . (your favorite tactic in forum PvP seems to be to sound reasonably intelligent on a point that has nothing to do with what is being discussed)
It's called an analogy, and the rationale holds true. To act as if people should simply "become immune" to marketing is silly. That's what that one sentence argument implies.
I have a solution. If you don't like paying for games without knowing when they'll release, then don't.
Have you ever celebrated mother's day? Father's day? Had a dinner with your SO for Valentine's Day? Worn deodorant?
Then you've fallen prey to the same influences of marketing folks who buy into these EA/Crowdfunding titles have. I've said elsewhere, giving it this reaction is essentially: "I don't feel it affects me directly, so I refuse to give it deeper thought." That's your right, but it makes you poorly qualified to address the issue in general.
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
The problem isn't that the game developer is hiding information from you. The problem is that the game developer doesn't know when the game will be ready, either. They could stick an arbitrary date on something and declare it a launch, but a pre-alpha game that is nominally launched isn't really what you're looking for.
If you wait until after a game launches before paying for it, there isn't any ambiguity about future release dates. You pay today, and you get to play today, as soon as you're done with the download. If you pay for a game before the promise is that you'll get to play immediately, then you know full well that you don't know when--if ever--the game will really be ready for you.
You can't tell me, for example, CoE's timeline for all that was promised was a sound timeline. But he ardently defended it at the time against criticism. In fact, crowdfunding projects have routinely listed timelines that seem much more marketing than actual plan.
Backers are only getting the marketing, with no good recourse to evaluate the claims made. That's an issue. More transparency and an independent investigative review of project claims only serves to help consumers make an informed decision.
I have a solution. If you don't like paying for games without knowing when they'll release, then don't.
Have you ever celebrated mother's day? Father's day? Had a dinner with your SO for Valentine's Day? Worn deodorant?
Then you've fallen prey to the same influences of marketing folks who buy into these EA/Crowdfunding titles have. I've said elsewhere, giving it this reaction is essentially: "I don't feel it affects me directly, so I refuse to give it deeper thought." That's your right, but it makes you poorly qualified to address the issue in general.
The inequity of verifiable and straightforward information between consumers and producer in these instances is an issue.
The problem isn't that the game developer is hiding information from you. The problem is that the game developer doesn't know when the game will be ready, either. They could stick an arbitrary date on something and declare it a launch, but a pre-alpha game that is nominally launched isn't really what you're looking for.
If you wait until after a game launches before paying for it, there isn't any ambiguity about future release dates. You pay today, and you get to play today, as soon as you're done with the download. If you pay for a game before the promise is that you'll get to play immediately, then you know full well that you don't know when--if ever--the game will really be ready for you.
You can't tell me, for example, CoE's timeline for all that was promised was a sound timeline. But he ardently defended it at the time against criticism. In fact, crowdfunding projects have routinely listed timelines that seem much more marketing than actual plan.
Backers are only getting the marketing, with no good recourse to evaluate the claims made. That's an issue. More transparency and an independent investigative review of project claims only serves to help consumers make an informed decision.
Very well then: what do you propose? If something is unknowable even to the people most directly involved in developing the game, how do you propose to make it known to people with only a casual interest?
Sometimes what happens in large programming projects is that you put a bunch of work into developing something, and then you realize that it just doesn't work. In the context of game design, one way this could happen is that you put a bunch of work into creating a game mechanic and then, once you can test it, you discover that it just isn't fun. You then end up having to toss out a bunch of work and redesign some major things on the fly. You don't know where or how often it's going to happen, but it can cause all sorts of problems when it does.
Comments
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
(your favorite tactic in forum PvP seems to be to sound reasonably intelligent on a point that has nothing to do with what is being discussed)
If people did stop treating crowdfunding as a Pre-Order platform maybe they would have more realistic expectations of what they are getting themselves into.
Crowdfunding should have as much accountability as proper Investments, it is the only reasonable solution that fits some extent of its reality.
Turn gamer entitlement into informed gamers and we'll see this issue fading away.
Yes, Kickstarter requires a date. So don’t use Kickstarter unless you can get reasonably close to the date. Putting in a date you know is wrong “because Kickstarter made us put a date” is fraudulent IMHO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Even if a totally unexpected event occurs like zombie apocalypse or comet strike, they should have the good graces to dust themselves off, reforecast a new reasonable date and......be willing to refund those looking to do so, especially if the delays are the fault of the developer.
You say there is no way to be accurate. Back in 2012 when many of these Kickstarters started I publically stated a full featured MMORPG could not be delivered in 2 years, not through any great knowledge, history was against thinking otherwise.
But devs believed it would hurt their fund raising to say, likely 4 to 6 years, or "we don't know, we'll get back to you with a date in 3 years" so they flat out lied IMO, or were totally delusional.
Again, tell the truth, then I don't care who contributes to what, or offer refunds if promise are grossly not met.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Even construction of a skyscraper is a proper exact science everything is designed and the plans are all there, you already know what and how, it only takes an easier prediction that is estimating the building process, and even that gets off by years for many possible different reasons.
Game dev is waaay too unstable, so many variables, so many things that can or can't happen, especially because on crowdfunding the game dev has early access phases where the feedback from community and so forfh will impact the design, force changes and so forfh. The only way the dates can get realistic is if the date takes priority over any quality standards, but when that happens, the result ain't pretty.
As for refunds and such on crowdfunding is another thing more related to gamer entitlement than reason, on cases where you had to fully fund your project via crowdfunding, the pledges of your backers will be EARNED, and while you might just shut your hears and just go "lalalalala I don't care devs should refund anyway", it won't change there are things that are possible, and things that aren't. Once again, gamers need to assume there are risks and stay away if they just expect this sort of guarantees over their pledges (like I said, why Paypal did stop issuing buyer protection for crowdfunding).
See how much money they raise when instead of a date they state:
We have no estimated date because "Game dev is waaay too unstable, so many variables, so many things that can or can't happen, especially because on crowdfunding the game dev has early access phases where the feedback from community and so forfh will impact the design, force changes and so forfh. "
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
That will at least mitigate some of the more ludicrous marketing around a few of them.
But then again, is it viable for a crowdfunded title to exist with the refusal to give a release date? Because if not and the project gets no support, then it's a no-go anyway you'll always be under pressure to give something otherwise you'll fail right before you start. Though reality.
Nobody says you have to use Kickstarter to Crowdfund. Maybe it should only be for projects that have confidence in their plans and are willing to be held accountable.
If the game is only getting funded because they are using a fake, unachievable release date, then maybe they don't deserve to be funded. Honesty is the best policy. If you don't have confidence that what you are saying is true, then do not say it.
The ends do not justify the means.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And I understand why offices work with more aggressive timelines because it's part of the whole office strategy to gain momentum and motivation, if you give a very conservative relaxed date to have a large margin when issues arise, studies I've read show that the work will actually last longer, so management never wants to give that way and create a longer-lasting negative effect through their work because of relaxation, rather messy thing tbh.
The only reasonable thing is not having a date from the ground-up and only give one when they can, and this is what mainstream devs do, but seems Crowdfunding is unable to get away with it and is always under pressure to announce release dates.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is what confuses me about crowdfunding, the developers can't hit a date they provide then ask for more funding. What exactly instills confidence in the consumer that these developers aren't going to miss the next target. Without some accountability, this practice will continue, with some current development efforts appearing more and more like a scam.
Projection of any creative product is difficult. But in normal engineering environments from bridge building to software development, the person who projects badly costs the company money, and possibly their job. That's the 'out' that crowdfunding is providing -- the ability to preserve the job of people who may not have any idea about Project Management and avoid the company putting money into a failed project. Crowdfunding may not have started like this, but from the outside, it certainly looks like it is becoming a way to bypass the repercussions of failure.
Without some kind of regulation, unscrupulous companies are likely to continue looking at their customers as a never-ending source of income. With that kind of attitude and a lack of enforced accountability, crowdfunding is going to be used to protect companies, developers, projects and ideas that *might* actually should fail.
Crowdfunding is a case where government (enforcement, laws, and education) failed to keep up with new ideas that businesses invent. It's like Texting While Driving. It's has taken laws, public education and an emphasis on enforcement for people to realize that TWD is really a bad idea.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
When a company like Ubisoft is doing a new Assassin's Creed, it's very predictable because they already have one engine ready with the mechanics they need and all that, they won't go through the worse phase that is where you create technology, research & development of features/tech, etc.. etc... So it's mostly about the art work where even if you fall behind you can just simply throw more resources at it.
Large companies do not publish dates publicly until the release is close enough, so this gives the wrong perception of how certain development is, and for example I know friends working in Rockstar in RDR2 and that title they literally don't work with a release date for the title itself, only for their own internal milestones, when the company is read, they'll announce when. GTA V is another example even tho it took 5 years it still had a more relaxed approach where they could take their time to create one more challenging game because they could afford it and there was little pressure internally towards that release, after all, with a game with the sale prospects of GTA they won't be imposing on that aspect.
Companies like Blizzard on the Project Titan (the successor to WoW) that gets canned, people don't see what happened from something that was meant to be one MMO, it ended up as what we today know as Overwatch, that's just how uncertain and ugly dev can be, and you rarely ever see that publicly happening even tho it does happen.
So it's not about good or bad companies, it's about how many risks you are willing to take, and sadly, crowdfunded MMO's are taking more ambition and risks (especially on the unproven design section) than usually the larger publisher/studios that have far more resources and experience to handle such projects are willing to take.
If you wait until after a game launches before paying for it, there isn't any ambiguity about future release dates. You pay today, and you get to play today, as soon as you're done with the download. If you pay for a game before the promise is that you'll get to play immediately, then you know full well that you don't know when--if ever--the game will really be ready for you.
And that's for an enormous company with a ton of experience and a basically unlimited budget. It gets harder when some of the people on your project are novices, when you're trying to do something wildly different from what has been done before, or when you're on a tight budget not knowing if you even have enough money to finish.
People are always complaining that companies don't listen to them when they make suggestions, however, if they do listen and make changes, it's gonna delay release.
Foolishness I say!
I self identify as a monkey.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Backers are only getting the marketing, with no good recourse to evaluate the claims made. That's an issue. More transparency and an independent investigative review of project claims only serves to help consumers make an informed decision.
Sometimes what happens in large programming projects is that you put a bunch of work into developing something, and then you realize that it just doesn't work. In the context of game design, one way this could happen is that you put a bunch of work into creating a game mechanic and then, once you can test it, you discover that it just isn't fun. You then end up having to toss out a bunch of work and redesign some major things on the fly. You don't know where or how often it's going to happen, but it can cause all sorts of problems when it does.