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Guild Wars 2 - Bill Murphy - ArenaNet and the Wisdom of Not Doing Anything - MMORPG.com

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  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,387
    edited July 2018
    MosesZD said:

    4.  It wasn't really criticism.  He was offering a different take and perspective.  Sometimes others can have that.   Sometimes it leads to the person hearing it winning a Nobel Prize in physics by making an incredibly important paradigm shift.


    I do think it an artist thing.

    That's probably why there is an old Chinese saying - There are not first places arts, There are no second places in a fight - it is because arts is a field that is so much a matter of opinion and perspective that it is easy for the creator to THINK they are king dick.

    Whereas in science or in conflict results are measurable and quantitative, you can't lie to yourself about being the best, as others can see it in plain sight the extent of your success. The only way to be the best is to actually learn from others/trial and errors.
  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 623
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:
    Pemmin said:


    looks like a generic hit piece to me.

    speaking of hit piece why don't you post the Forbes article that came out on the 2 days ago trashing john bain so everyone can see how the industry views its fan base.
    Is it something to do with the ArenaNet thing? I don't generally read Forbes because their ad policy is punitive. Link it.

    Funny as it is, it didn't read like a hit piece at all to me. It was interesting and informative, though, as said, not sure it changes anything. :)
    they tried to link it to his legacy in the first paragraph but it mostly spirals into a gamergate rant.

    "The late YouTube Legend known as John "TotalBiscuit" Bain would have turned 34 on Sunday had he not lost his struggle to bowel cancer about a month ago. Instead of “Happy Birthdays” and tributes to his decade-plus career in the video game industry, however, his name is currently being evoked with the firing of two game developers and associated mob harassment. His critics call it “fitting” that this is Bain’s legacy… but many of his fans, some of whom have grown up with him, are wondering why some internet drama from 2014 is still relevant enough in 2018 to damage Bain’s brand forever. Even posthumously, TotalBiscuit is causing controversy. "


    full article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/fruzsinaeordogh/2018/07/10/totalbiscuits-legacy-and-the-collateral-damage-of-gamergate/#98edd3132ae8


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    as for why I call the article you link a hit piece is because its full of excuses and over reactions that make an effort to justify and normalize what JP did.

    why should she be protected from the public and not have consequences? she accused someone who was a fan and community contributor and being relatively polite of hate speech and received backlash for this?...why are other developers upset at this? why do they think company social media policies haven't been the norm for years? the article does not address any of this and places blame on an ambiguous mob.

    YashaX
  • 5hr0ud5hr0ud Member UncommonPosts: 1
    The media coverage and bias of this whole mess is incredibly disturbing to me. As for Peter, I agree it is definitely more of a grey area. However, we do not know what transpired behind closed doors. For all we know, Peter *may* have said something such as, "Hey, I've enjoyed my time here. But this incident has made me rethink things. Thirteen years is a good, long run, but I think I want to try other things with my life". We do not know what happened in that meeting (and, personally, I do not feel that it is our business to know what happened in the meeting -- those are private meetings, unless we adhere to the definition of privacy set forth by a "private Twitter account").

    In one of the responses from ArenaNet, MO said, "Whatever you thought of the tweets, Jessica and Peter were also part of the team that brought you the kidnapping scene in Episode 1, which was a wonderfully well-executed scene. That’s how I want to remember their time at ArenaNet." I agree! And many Guild Wars 2 players also seemed to agree. The scene was very well done, and received a lot of praise in game, on the forum, on Reddit, and through many other venues! To me, I perceive this as classy on MO's part.

    Jessica later remarks on her Twitter, "Oh, one more thing. Mike O'Brien's most recent statement reduces my contribution to GW2 to one scene from one episode. Given how often women's work is erased or minimized, that's especially egregious. So, for the record:". In more follow up tweets, she goes into a bit further detail about how she has contributed. I do not understand why she wants to further make a fight out of this, when it seems (to me) that MO was merely trying to give her and Peter praise -- an example of something awesome they have BOTH worked on TOGETHER recently. It is nonsense to try and measure every single contribution a team member has made to a project. Every fleeting idea they may have shared. Every epiphany they may have ignited in a fellow developer.

    While we know little (if anything) of what occurred in the meeting between Peter and MO, Jessica gave us a bit of insight into what her experience was: “The whole thing was highly unprofessional [and] there was zero reason for him to be there. He wanted to vent his anger, and he had the power to command a woman to stand there while he took his feelings out on her, so he did. Then he walked out, [the manager] got my stuff from my desk and the HR person asked for my key card.” Does a CEO need any reason whatsoever to be present at their own company? Was MO exercising his role as leadership at a company? Or was he merely present to command a woman and force Jessica to be his emotional courtesan? As the saying goes, there are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

    Everything Jessica has to say seems to scream that she has an agenda, and I cannot understand why anyone would want to defend someone who seems to be so combative, someone who seems to be so full of vitriol, and someone who seems to be all too ready to besmirch the previous companies that she has worked for.
    AeanderPemmin[Deleted User]Threatlevel0NephethYashaXGhavriggDakeru
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    So looking through GW2's Reddit, it seems the player base has moved on.  Unless there was a mopping up and deleting of all things related to the issue.

    Yet, still today, we're getting gaming press trying to keep the issue alive, posting more articles so out of touch with the consumer gaming community it's shocking.

    Honestly, at this point, the gaming press needs to let this go if they can't find a better poster child for the issue they're trying to raise.  It stinks of gaming press being completely out of touch with the reality of the situation.  Someone claiming on Reddit they have the power to fire someone does not make it true, and this instance seems apparently far from that truth.  It's almost as if some gaming sites actively want gamers to lose any faith in their ability to objectively approach a story.

    @SBFord I know you mentioned you wish this news cycle would end, but it seems your fellow industry journalists insist on keeping it alive and attempting to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this story.

    If the gaming press wishes to continue this crusade without completely alienating the consumer, they desperately need to find a more appropriate situation to hold up as the example.  The consumers just aren't buying this one, and for good reason.
    EponyxDamorJeffSpicoliLackingMMOaRtFuLThinG[Deleted User]Threatlevel0laxie5hr0udYashaXAeanderand 2 others.

    image
  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,387

    Yet, still today, we're getting gaming press trying to keep the issue alive, posting more articles so out of touch with the consumer gaming community it's shocking.

    Not only that, the gaming press keeps on making the source of this seems like a sexism, while in reality, if one do the research and read through everything, it is basically just an issue similar to the Soup Nazi in Seinfeld - a case of an artist can't take any differing opinions:



    MadFrenchie
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    edited July 2018
    Generally speaking, all these diversity programs are the embodiment of systemic sexism and rasism. On one hand it makes entering a field easier. On the long run it perpetuates the mindset that the people benefiting from them are of lower standards.

    It is indeed aggravating to need to prove to your colleagues and customers that your status and position is deserved.

    Still, western society is heavily skewed towards shielding women in particular, to the point where some of them can't handle getting equal treatment to their male colleagues. Price's case is indicative of how powerful that shielding can be.


    On a separate note and indicative of the quality of the journalism of Verge, they are peddling the fake form that supposedly called for the firing of female developers. Quality journalism 101, take a troll form from random twitter user and present it as real news and a real threat.

    As for Forbes and their emetic article, I'll just leave this image here (don't want people to give them clicks):


    a1.jpg 105.9K
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,393
    Ghavrigg said:
    btdt said:
    Hate to tell you boys, but inequality and sexism are very much alive in the workforce.  If it were not the case, I wouldn't have received an award from a class action lawsuit... twice from my previous employer... for breaking the same damn rules.  Times may be different now, but the issues still remain.  Anyone saying otherwise is either a male, incredibly lucky, or so oblivious to it that they don't even know that it's happening.

    You don't know this individual's entire history at their workplace.  You can't say whether sexism was or was not involved because you weren't there to witness it.  You're merely commenting on hearsay anecdotes available on the web.  And lord knows, everything you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


    People know sexism exists. It just isn't relevant in this specific case. 
    Given some of the responses to me, some people actually don't think sexism exists in the industry, which reminds me of awhat  Qui-Gon Jinn said "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."" 

    Which really seems to sum up this whole discussion.
    SBFord
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Member UncommonPosts: 712
    SBFord said:
    Pemmin said:


    looks like a generic hit piece to me.

    speaking of hit piece why don't you post the Forbes article that came out on the 2 days ago trashing john bain so everyone can see how the industry views its fan base.
    Is it something to do with the ArenaNet thing? I don't generally read Forbes because their ad policy is punitive. Link it.

    Funny as it is, it didn't read like a hit piece at all to me. It was interesting and informative, though, as said, not sure it changes anything. :)
    Funny indeed. Not a hit piece? Well, his widow seems to believe otherwise. But what would she know?

    Just a few days after Price is fired, Forbes publishes an article linking Bain--a man who's recent death Price shamelessly and publicly sniped on--to a harassment-campaign against women.

    I'm sure it's just a coincidence. 
    YashaXAeander[Deleted User]GhavriggWarhawke80Dakeru
  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Member UncommonPosts: 712
    Ungood said:
    Ghavrigg said:
    btdt said:
    Hate to tell you boys, but inequality and sexism are very much alive in the workforce.  If it were not the case, I wouldn't have received an award from a class action lawsuit... twice from my previous employer... for breaking the same damn rules.  Times may be different now, but the issues still remain.  Anyone saying otherwise is either a male, incredibly lucky, or so oblivious to it that they don't even know that it's happening.

    You don't know this individual's entire history at their workplace.  You can't say whether sexism was or was not involved because you weren't there to witness it.  You're merely commenting on hearsay anecdotes available on the web.  And lord knows, everything you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


    People know sexism exists. It just isn't relevant in this specific case. 
    Given some of the responses to me, some people actually don't think sexism exists in the industry, which reminds me of awhat  Qui-Gon Jinn said "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."" 

    Which really seems to sum up this whole discussion.
    Want an example of sexism? Look no further than all these 'well-researched and documented articles' that rob Price of the agency and wherewithal to take responsibility for her own behavior.
    YashaXAeander[Deleted User]forcelimaWarhawke80
  • GanksinatraGanksinatra Member UncommonPosts: 455
    Ungood said:
    Ghavrigg said:
    btdt said:
    Hate to tell you boys, but inequality and sexism are very much alive in the workforce.  If it were not the case, I wouldn't have received an award from a class action lawsuit... twice from my previous employer... for breaking the same damn rules.  Times may be different now, but the issues still remain.  Anyone saying otherwise is either a male, incredibly lucky, or so oblivious to it that they don't even know that it's happening.

    You don't know this individual's entire history at their workplace.  You can't say whether sexism was or was not involved because you weren't there to witness it.  You're merely commenting on hearsay anecdotes available on the web.  And lord knows, everything you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


    People know sexism exists. It just isn't relevant in this specific case. 
    Given some of the responses to me, some people actually don't think sexism exists in the industry, which reminds me of awhat  Qui-Gon Jinn said "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."" 

    Which really seems to sum up this whole discussion.
    Want an example of sexism? Look no further than all these 'well-researched and documented articles' that rob Price of the agency and wherewithal to take responsibility for her own behavior.
    This is called the "soft bigotry of lowered expectations". She's not expected to need to admit when she's wrong. She's a woman, and therefore apparently incapable of regulating her emotions (I guess would be the reason?). You see this often. A great example of this is Affirmative Action. Some people see it as the "evening of the playing field". What I see it as is "We can't expect you to be as good as the white folks, so we give you extra points for your melanin". It's actually quite insulting to me. And I can never get a job and not have some people looking at me like I got the job based upon my credentials and not my skin color. Some feel the same about women and the LGBTQ folks now as well.

    I find that far more offensive than being called a name by some knuckledragging trailer dweller whose life is likely so sad that it seems cruel to even correct him. 

    But this is what we have now. We have people who are held to different standards because they cannot be expected to uphold the same standards as everyone else based upon trait X, whether that be skin color, sex, sexual preference, religion, etc..
    hanshotfirstAeanderGhavrigg
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,993
    SBFord said:
    The Verge has put up a lengthy, but well-researched and documented article titled "ArenaNet firings cast a chill shadow over the games industry". It's not short and it goes far beyond the Price firing. It's a good read for those inclined to see the wider impact of this week's events.

    I dunno...it was an interesting read. Not sure it changes anything though. :D

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

    “This incident makes very clear the perils of social media for game developers, especially when transparent and well-understood guidelines for staff members are not in place,” the IGDA post reads. “Game developers are also frequently targeted for harassment, particularly if they are members of under-represented communities. Companies must plan for how they will support their staff members in the event of online harassment, and should clearly communicate the resources they will make available to their team to have safe, productive, and positive interactions online, especially if they are expected to do so in their roles.”


    How on earth can you people not get it? Or are you just trolling us?

    It is completely normal for a company to fire an employee that publicly shames, insults, and attacks a customer for no reason. The only thing abnormal about the incident has been the game media coverage that seems hell bent on putting some off the wall spin on the situation.


    AeanderGhavriggWarhawke80Dakeru
    ....
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,881
    YashaX said:
    SBFord said:
    The Verge has put up a lengthy, but well-researched and documented article titled "ArenaNet firings cast a chill shadow over the games industry". It's not short and it goes far beyond the Price firing. It's a good read for those inclined to see the wider impact of this week's events.

    I dunno...it was an interesting read. Not sure it changes anything though. :D

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

    “This incident makes very clear the perils of social media for game developers, especially when transparent and well-understood guidelines for staff members are not in place,” the IGDA post reads. “Game developers are also frequently targeted for harassment, particularly if they are members of under-represented communities. Companies must plan for how they will support their staff members in the event of online harassment, and should clearly communicate the resources they will make available to their team to have safe, productive, and positive interactions online, especially if they are expected to do so in their roles.”


    How on earth can you people not get it? Or are you just trolling us?

    It is completely normal for a company to fire an employee that publicly shames, insults, and attacks a customer for no reason. The only thing abnormal about the incident has been the game media coverage that seems hell bent on putting some off the wall spin on the situation.


    This is nothing new. Games media has a unique contempt for their readers and a fundamental misunderstanding of their role. Our journalists seem to believe themselves to be storytellers, as opposed to the reporters they should be, and they will scream their preset story to the wind, even as the wind shouts back that they are wrong.
    Warhawke80
  • Lambon23Lambon23 Member UncommonPosts: 66
    I'm glad people here are not so indoctrinated that they allow these "journalists" who all have the same opinion, turn this into another misandrist circle jerk.


    Warhawke80
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,617
    Aeander said:
    YashaX said:
    SBFord said:
    The Verge has put up a lengthy, but well-researched and documented article titled "ArenaNet firings cast a chill shadow over the games industry". It's not short and it goes far beyond the Price firing. It's a good read for those inclined to see the wider impact of this week's events.

    I dunno...it was an interesting read. Not sure it changes anything though. :D

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

    “This incident makes very clear the perils of social media for game developers, especially when transparent and well-understood guidelines for staff members are not in place,” the IGDA post reads. “Game developers are also frequently targeted for harassment, particularly if they are members of under-represented communities. Companies must plan for how they will support their staff members in the event of online harassment, and should clearly communicate the resources they will make available to their team to have safe, productive, and positive interactions online, especially if they are expected to do so in their roles.”


    How on earth can you people not get it? Or are you just trolling us?

    It is completely normal for a company to fire an employee that publicly shames, insults, and attacks a customer for no reason. The only thing abnormal about the incident has been the game media coverage that seems hell bent on putting some off the wall spin on the situation.


    This is nothing new. Games media has a unique contempt for their readers and a fundamental misunderstanding of their role. Our journalists seem to believe themselves to be storytellers, as opposed to the reporters they should be, and they will scream their preset story to the wind, even as the wind shouts back that they are wrong.
    I am not commenting here on the detail of the issue in question (did not read all the back posts), but narrative is now more important in journalism than news. Regardless of what sort of journalism it is, it is this repeating of excepted wisdom that is causing huge damage to the news media.

    I can watch a news item on the BBC, Sky, ITN, C4, C5 etc and they virtually always pick the same items and roughly say the same thing. There is no conspiracy here, it is simply like minded journalists producing like minded news and picking up news angles from other channels. The reason I bring up national news channels is they are still the gold standard but have been tarnished by a narrative first policy.

    So it is not just gaming news, it is everywhere.
    MadFrenchie
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,393
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    No, I think it does harm beause it does.  She's chicken little.
    Like the people with their heads int he sand trying to say there is no sexism in the industry are harming any legitimacy your side of the discussion is trying to build.

    That I agree with.
    Aeander
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • vorrin5vorrin5 Member UncommonPosts: 71
    btdt said:

    You don't know this individual's entire history at their workplace.  You can't say whether sexism was or was not involved because you weren't there to witness it.  You're merely commenting on hearsay anecdotes available on the web.  And lord knows, everything you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


    Just from what she said in public, she deserved to be fired.

    You're attempting to excuse her behavior and shame ANet because you want to believe it was sexism and not just some angry person being an asshole to someone that didn't deserve it. Her decision to shame Deroir (the female dev tweet) after he apologized for being misunderstood and bowed out gracefully shows the type of person that she really is.

    She even had to take it a step further and call him a "rando asshat" along with everyone else that might want to have a discussion or disagree with her about game development.

    Is this really the type of person that you want to rally behind?

    By not calling her out on her poor decisions and lack of remorse for her actions, you are doing more harm to your cause than you realize.
    Ghavriggforcelima
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,393
    Xasapis said:
    Generally speaking, all these diversity programs are the embodiment of systemic sexism and rasism. On one hand it makes entering a field easier. On the long run it perpetuates the mindset that the people benefiting from them are of lower standards.

    It is indeed aggravating to need to prove to your colleagues and customers that your status and position is deserved.

    Still, western society is heavily skewed towards shielding women in particular, to the point where some of them can't handle getting equal treatment to their male colleagues. Price's case is indicative of how powerful that shielding can be.


    On a separate note and indicative of the quality of the journalism of Verge, they are peddling the fake form that supposedly called for the firing of female developers. Quality journalism 101, take a troll form from random twitter user and present it as real news and a real threat.

    As for Forbes and their emetic article, I'll just leave this image here (don't want people to give them clicks):


    I stayed away from the whole Gamergate thing, never wanted to even touch that at all, but the fact that Totalbiscut was the leader behind that fiasco, Now I fully understand why Price said what she said about him.  From what I gathered Gamergate was a massive sexist driven smear campaign against women in the industry, and TB lead that fiasco, and people are actually shocked that there are women in the industry hated him?

    Wow, this really shows the true colors of how fucked up the game industry is, and how screw up gamers are.

    People came out to prise TB and parade him as some decent normal streamer, not the total pice of shit that started Gamergate, and I bet those same people are here trying to rip down Price..

    Yah.. well. I just lost a fuckton of respect for her attackers.
    AeanderhanshotfirstEponyxDamorWarhawke80Lambon23
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    No, I think it does harm beause it does.  She's chicken little.
    Like the people with their heads int he sand trying to say there is no sexism in the industry are harming any legitimacy your side of the discussion is trying to build.

    That I agree with.
    What?  My post had nothing to do with anyone in denial about sexism.  It doesn't affect my point whatsoever.
    EponyxDamor

    image
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,981
    Ungood said:
    Ghavrigg said:
    btdt said:
    Hate to tell you boys, but inequality and sexism are very much alive in the workforce.  If it were not the case, I wouldn't have received an award from a class action lawsuit... twice from my previous employer... for breaking the same damn rules.  Times may be different now, but the issues still remain.  Anyone saying otherwise is either a male, incredibly lucky, or so oblivious to it that they don't even know that it's happening.

    You don't know this individual's entire history at their workplace.  You can't say whether sexism was or was not involved because you weren't there to witness it.  You're merely commenting on hearsay anecdotes available on the web.  And lord knows, everything you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


    People know sexism exists. It just isn't relevant in this specific case. 
    Given some of the responses to me, some people actually don't think sexism exists in the industry, which reminds me of awhat  Qui-Gon Jinn said "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."" 

    Which really seems to sum up this whole discussion.
    Some people think sexism exists everywhere, the "industry" isn't a special snowflake.

    Some people also believe that sexism is a two way street.

    Girls are allowed on boys sport teams. Girls are allowed in the boy scouts. But boys who might be more feminine are not allowed into institutions for girls. Clubs for only men are on the verge of being outlawed while clubs for only women are being encouraged.

    I advocate for true equality. 

    I fired a someone once for being very rude to a customer in an email exchange. That person just happened to be a Caucasian male. I couldn't give a shit what sex or color they were, it was his actions that got him fired.

    nothing more, nothing less 
    MadFrenchieYashaXGhavriggalkarionlogEponyxDamorWarhawke80Dakeru

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    edited July 2018
    Ungood said:
    Xasapis said:
    Generally speaking, all these diversity programs are the embodiment of systemic sexism and rasism. On one hand it makes entering a field easier. On the long run it perpetuates the mindset that the people benefiting from them are of lower standards.

    It is indeed aggravating to need to prove to your colleagues and customers that your status and position is deserved.

    Still, western society is heavily skewed towards shielding women in particular, to the point where some of them can't handle getting equal treatment to their male colleagues. Price's case is indicative of how powerful that shielding can be.


    On a separate note and indicative of the quality of the journalism of Verge, they are peddling the fake form that supposedly called for the firing of female developers. Quality journalism 101, take a troll form from random twitter user and present it as real news and a real threat.

    As for Forbes and their emetic article, I'll just leave this image here (don't want people to give them clicks):


    I stayed away from the whole Gamergate thing, never wanted to even touch that at all, but the fact that Totalbiscut was the leader behind that fiasco, Now I fully understand why Price said what she said about him.  From what I gathered Gamergate was a massive sexist driven smear campaign against women in the industry, and TB lead that fiasco, and people are actually shocked that there are women in the industry hated him?

    Wow, this really shows the true colors of how fucked up the game industry is, and how screw up gamers are.

    People came out to prise TB and parade him as some decent normal streamer, not the total pice of shit that started Gamergate, and I bet those same people are here trying to rip down Price..

    Yah.. well. I just lost a fuckton of respect for her attackers.
    The only reason that evil person wrote that smear piece and badgered the grieving widow was because she wasn't included in the gamergate wiki.

    Priorities.


    (As for gamergate, it seems to be a different thing for different people. For TB and a lot of people it was the failing of gaming journalism. Kind of what you see today around you, especially in regards to this Anet incident. Beyond that, he distanced himself when the extremists from both sides went completely crazy about their side of the argument. He was definitely not any kind of leader. From my understanding the GG side had no leaders, which was the reason it was completely directionless.

    His "crime" was that he wanted ethics in journalism. That's what riled up the gaming press against him. Personally I'd be more appauled if somebody called me anti-GGer instead of GG-er, considering the amount of anti-GG leaders that were convicted for murder, rape, sexual assault, child porn and child molestation over the years that GG happened and died out.

    Ethics in journalism. Think about it. Think about the coverage of gaming press regarding the Anet incident and how they tried to rewrite reality. Now think about what you know about GG and where you read it from.)
    Aeander[Deleted User]alkarionlogBuccaneer5hr0udWarhawke80
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    Can we all at least agree that 'woke' & 'clap back' need to go away?  B) :p ;) :D

    Gut Out!
    AeanderSBFordMadFrenchieLeiloniJeleenaEponyxDamorTorvalWarhawke80

    What, me worry?

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,881
    edited July 2018
    Ungood said:
    Xasapis said:
    Generally speaking, all these diversity programs are the embodiment of systemic sexism and rasism. On one hand it makes entering a field easier. On the long run it perpetuates the mindset that the people benefiting from them are of lower standards.

    It is indeed aggravating to need to prove to your colleagues and customers that your status and position is deserved.

    Still, western society is heavily skewed towards shielding women in particular, to the point where some of them can't handle getting equal treatment to their male colleagues. Price's case is indicative of how powerful that shielding can be.


    On a separate note and indicative of the quality of the journalism of Verge, they are peddling the fake form that supposedly called for the firing of female developers. Quality journalism 101, take a troll form from random twitter user and present it as real news and a real threat.

    As for Forbes and their emetic article, I'll just leave this image here (don't want people to give them clicks):


    I stayed away from the whole Gamergate thing, never wanted to even touch that at all, but the fact that Totalbiscut was the leader behind that fiasco, Now I fully understand why Price said what she said about him.  From what I gathered Gamergate was a massive sexist driven smear campaign against women in the industry, and TB lead that fiasco, and people are actually shocked that there are women in the industry hated him?

    Wow, this really shows the true colors of how fucked up the game industry is, and how screw up gamers are.

    People came out to prise TB and parade him as some decent normal streamer, not the total pice of shit that started Gamergate, and I bet those same people are here trying to rip down Price..

    Yah.. well. I just lost a fuckton of respect for her attackers.
    The funny thing about respect is that for respect to matter, the person offering or revoking it has to be worthy of it. 

    Oh, and the only person who has ripped down Price is Price herself. We didn't insult Deroir. We didn't stubbornly refuse to course correct or apologize on her behalf. We didn't go to multiple media outlets to burn every bridge in sight. The only thing we are guilty of is asking why the industry is protecting this vile, raving lunatic despite all evidence pointing to her cause being the wrong hill to die on.
    Leilonialkarionlog
  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    THIS SHIT IS STILL GOING?!!!!



    SBFordAeanderScotLeiloniWarhawke80
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    i mean Jesus Christ, enough people
    SBFordAeander
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Where's Henry?
    SBFord
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