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Guild Wars 2 - Bill Murphy - ArenaNet and the Wisdom of Not Doing Anything - MMORPG.com

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  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,845
    This debate really doesn't really need to go any further. It was pretty clean cut. There's no mud or grey area. I really don't get what the drawn out back and forth is for.
    BaitnessJeffSpicoliMazingerZlaxie
    Raging Demons for all flowchart "Kens". This is a metaphor.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,257
    edited July 2018
    The thing is, if you're going to try to convince us that MO is somehow a bad guy (which is an agenda that is in very poor taste), you need to do it outside of this situation. Because to those of us who work in the real world, and not in the bubble of the gaming industry that never seems to realize that their workplaces are a fantasy land that don't reflect reality, there's nothing wrong with what MO did here.

    Sure it's possible there's other things he's done that are actually bad, but this is not one of them. This is totally appropriate and normal behavior on his part and if the gaming industry is going to regain trust and respect from gaming fans, you all are going to need to realize this. When an employee of a publicly facing company, very publicly attacks the community (or customers), it's the CEO's job to apologize and fix it. That's all we have here.
    MisterZebubCaffynatedAeanderBaitnessScotJeffSpicoliDakeruYashaXMazingerZlaxieand 2 others.
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,325
    This debate really doesn't really need to go any further. It was pretty clean cut. There's no mud or grey area. I really don't get what the drawn out back and forth is for.
    Debate about Jessica Price or Mike O'Brien?

    I don't think there is any debate about Price really. Objectively her actions led to the outcome we already know.

    About Mike O'Brien? On it's own it could potential be newsworthy. Tied to the Price incident, it looks like a case of gaslighting.
    TorvalBaitnessGobstopper3DYashaXMazingerZ
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,545
    Just throwing this out there, a lot of us have thrown shade at Bill for his opinion of the situation, but I can really appreciate that you guys don't moderate people's voices. Over on Massively they are deleting comments that disagree with the OP that are of any significant discussion points. 
    Warhawke80TorvalBaitnessDakeruYashaXSBFord
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,414
    Celcius said:
    Just throwing this out there, a lot of us have thrown shade at Bill for his opinion of the situation, but I can really appreciate that you guys don't moderate people's voices. Over on Massively they are deleting comments that disagree with the OP that are of any significant discussion points. 
    Massively has always been a hypocritical shit show like that even when they were a real site and not someone's bitch.
    CelciusAoriMazingerZLeiloniSBFordScotMadFrenchie
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

  • sketocafesketocafe Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Wasn't Price let go from the people who make Pathfinder for crapping on their customers less than a year ago? How do you cover this without noticing that? I mean, that's not unimportant, is it?
    LackingMMOBaitnessPhryMazingerZLeiloni
  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Member UncommonPosts: 712
    I would be writing the same article, yes.
    I don't believe you.

    I appreciate this is an opinion piece, but even if I thought your article was objective, take out the identity politics angle and there's little to no controversy here. Or in other words, no clicks, no views, no revenue.

    "...the entire gaming world is talking about what a horrible thing it is for a company’s president to have fired an employee over Twitter conversations with players."

    Citation? The bulk of what I've seen (on Twitter, Reddit, ArenaNet, and yes, even this very article's comment section) has been overwhelmingly critical of Price, if not outright in favor of her dismissal. The only people I've seen to be consistently sympathetic have been journalists (such as Kotaku, Polygon, and now MMORPG.com).

    Worse still, (and hopefully no reflection on you, Bill) Forbes recently published a hit piece on TotalBiscuit. Pardon my tin foil hattery for a moment, but I'm finding it hard to believe that's just a coincidence.

    "I don’t know what she goes through day in, day out, just to be a part of this industry."

    I don't know what Donald Trump goes through day in, day out either. Should we just give him a pass too?

    "And it is her personal Twitter, so she should be allowed to say what she feels in that space."

    You might find this quite surprising, but I agree with you. Not because I found Price's behavior anything less than repugnant (I didn't), but because I believe in free expression. That said, I'm constantly reminded "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence" so you know, take that as you will.

    "She’s not wrong in her replies..."

    She went out of her way to humiliate someone who was nothing less than respectful, then compounded that with, at best, an indirect accusation of prejudice and sexism. What part of that don't you think is wrong?

    "But firing her, without knowing anything else about how or who she was at work..."

    Again, citation? You don't know what Price goes through day in, day out... but you're confident what O’Brien knew?

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be."

    You spoke with several ex-employees who were less than flattering of their former boss? Say it isn't so!

    "There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."

    And that reason is...? Or was this just a cute way to imply something sinister without risk of defamation?

    "Jessica Price lost a job she obviously cared about."

    You really think her behavior was (obviously) consistent with someone who cares about her job?

    "Peter Fries, a 13-year employee got caught in the crossfire too."

    Yet nearly every article I've seen has been far more sympathetic to Price. Imagine that. It's almost as if accusations of sexism and impropriety garner more clicks.

    "The rest of ArenaNet is left feeling like the spotlight is shining on them, arguably now worried about what they might say to get themselves sacked."

    Really now? Is your contention they're all children or sociopaths? The whole of AreaNet is incapable of discerning what Price did that cost her employment?

    Gobstopper3DRhoklawPhryMisterZebubMazingerZTacticalZombehYashaX
  • celtwulfceltwulf Member UncommonPosts: 61
    sketocafe said:

    Wasn't Price let go from the people who make Pathfinder for crapping on their customers less than a year ago? How do you cover this without noticing that? I mean, that's not unimportant, is it?
    Is this true? I hadn't even heard about this but yeah if she was fired from 2 companies back to back for the exact same thing I agree that it deserves a mention.
    Leiloni
  • NudalusNudalus Member UncommonPosts: 24
    A company has the right to fire anyone who makes them look bad. That is the reality that you are faced with.

    When you are posting on social media while advertising yourself as part of a certain company, you are representing them. And therefore are no longer immune to any backlash.

    Arenanet has 100% full right to fire someone to save the reputation.

    Don't like it? Don't post on social media while advertising yourself as part of the company. You can have "JOHN DOE" twitter with nothing tracing back to the company you work for and post whatever blasphemy you want.
    MazingerZ
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,325
    The only reason the likes of Polygon, Kotaku etc have not folded completely is because they are pushed by Google. I had to manually block their insipid editorials from my news feed, simply because they were clickbait garbage instead of actual news.

    Their forums are not moderated any better. In this regard mmorpg.com had the upper hand, since it was a site build around the forums, as opposed to theirs build around the news section. The focus is difference and thus the quality of the particular sections are different.

    The thing is, it was the editorials that drove me away from Kotaku, Polygon etc. It was a slow process of me peddling through the nonsense to find that one article worth reading. Eventually it became too much of a chore, thus I quit reading them altogether. If they produce a good article once per month, somebody will notify me about it.

    The other annoying thing about gaming press (which I guess can be true about any type of journalism) is how uniform these articles seem to be. It's as if all those people read from the same basic script, or are part of the same mailing list that contributes ideas for articles. I guess people don't understand that they undermine their own viewership, if they produce the exact same material the next guy has.

    And lastly, it's about honesty. A lot of the gaming articles feel fake. This is what I call classical clickbait. Articles that are opposite to common sense and objective reality, but with the potential to engage the viewership into heated arguments. Who cares about the truth, when you can spin a plausible fairy tail that is financially profitable for you. The problem with this parasitical type of journalism is that it works as long as the main body is healthy. Unfortunately for them, they have grown in size so much, that they are killing the whole concept of gaming journalism.

    I remember one article claiming "Gamers are dead. Gamers don't have to be your audience". Well, when you've turned your back on your audience, it's no wonder that audience has abandoned you.
    TacticalZombeh
  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Member UncommonPosts: 712
    SBFord said:
    Since I get to read this stuff as I post it, all I can say is nicely done @billmurphy !

    My favorite comment in all of this that, I believe, should be shouted from the rooftops:

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be. Quite often, it’s the opposite: he’s a founder and the company president, but there’s a reason he’s the only founder left at the company. There’s a reason many of the people who were responsible for the sky-high dreams of Guild Wars 2 left for other studios. There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."
    The comment that tip toes around libel to imply there's something ominous if not abundantly shameful about ArenaNet's Mike O’Brien? 

    That's what MMORPG.com's News Manager believes should be shouted from the rooftops?
    Warhawke80JeleenaPhryEponyxDamorDakeruMazingerZTacticalZombehvorrin5YashaX
  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,368
    celtwulf said:
    Below is a great vid from Liana K a youtube content creator, speaking about what they feel happened. It is a great neutral stance on the situation & I have to say I agree with pretty much 100% of what she says. It is a 34min vid but was a good watch. The reason I post it here because some of it is what Bill was trying to say & some of it is what the replies were trying to say. Or at least I think. Enjoy


    What she said is what I thought also - it is more of less an artist throwing an artsy fit over people commenting on their creations.

    It is more of an artist's temperament problem more than anything else.
    YashaX
  • AhnogAhnog Member UncommonPosts: 239
    edited July 2018
    I would be writing the same article, yes.
    I don't believe you.

    I appreciate this is an opinion piece, but even if I thought your article was objective, take out the identity politics angle and there's little to no controversy here. Or in other words, no clicks, no views, no revenue.

    "...the entire gaming world is talking about what a horrible thing it is for a company’s president to have fired an employee over Twitter conversations with players."

    Citation? The bulk of what I've seen (on Twitter, Reddit, ArenaNet, and yes, even this very article's comment section) has been overwhelmingly critical of Price, if not outright in favor of her dismissal. The only people I've seen to be consistently sympathetic have been journalists (such as Kotaku, Polygon, and now MMORPG.com).

    Worse still, (and hopefully no reflection on you, Bill) Forbes recently published a hit piece on TotalBiscuit. Pardon my tin foil hattery for a moment, but I'm finding it hard to believe that's just a coincidence.

    "I don’t know what she goes through day in, day out, just to be a part of this industry."

    I don't know what Donald Trump goes through day in, day out either. Should we just give him a pass too?

    "And it is her personal Twitter, so she should be allowed to say what she feels in that space."

    You might find this quite surprising, but I agree with you. Not because I found Price's behavior anything less than repugnant (I didn't), but because I believe in free expression. That said, I'm constantly reminded "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence" so you know, take that as you will.

    "She’s not wrong in her replies..."

    She went out of her way to humiliate someone who was nothing less than respectful, then compounded that with, at best, an indirect accusation of prejudice and sexism. What part of that don't you think is wrong?

    "But firing her, without knowing anything else about how or who she was at work..."

    Again, citation? You don't know what Price goes through day in, day out... but you're confident what O’Brien knew?

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be."

    You spoke with several ex-employees who were less than flattering of their former boss? Say it isn't so!

    "There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."

    And that reason is...? Or was this just a cute way to imply something sinister without risk of defamation?

    "Jessica Price lost a job she obviously cared about."

    You really think her behavior was (obviously) consistent with someone who cares about her job?

    "Peter Fries, a 13-year employee got caught in the crossfire too."

    Yet nearly every article I've seen has been far more sympathetic to Price. Imagine that. It's almost as if accusations of sexism and impropriety garner more clicks.

    "The rest of ArenaNet is left feeling like the spotlight is shining on them, arguably now worried about what they might say to get themselves sacked."

    Really now? Is your contention they're all children or sociopaths? The whole of AreaNet is incapable of discerning what Price did that cost her employment?(/quote)










    Ahnog:Freedom of speech is freedom from government limiting speech. Employers can certainly monitor and punish employees for speech they deem inappropriate. To put it another way, she had the freedom to say what she said, but the employer also has the freedom to fire her for it. 

    VesaviusPhryTacticalZombeh

    Ahnog

    Hokey religions are no replacement for a good blaster at your side.

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,845
    Xasapis said:
    This debate really doesn't really need to go any further. It was pretty clean cut. There's no mud or grey area. I really don't get what the drawn out back and forth is for.
    Debate about Jessica Price or Mike O'Brien?

    I don't think there is any debate about Price really. Objectively her actions led to the outcome we already know.

    About Mike O'Brien? On it's own it could potential be newsworthy. Tied to the Price incident, it looks like a case of gaslighting.
    Yeah, IDGAF about Mike O'Brien he wasn't the hot topic. If MMORPG wants to do some investigative journalism after the original situation closes out so be it. The approach was already tainted and it was done by a head editor and yes it looks like gaslighting regardless of the motives though.

    It's like when a world leader or his immediate staff are getting caught dead to rights using institution to do nefarious things I don't want to hear about how somebody else they don't like allegedly got away with something else. It should have been handled before the seat got hot. Current affairs first.
    MazingerZ
    Raging Demons for all flowchart "Kens". This is a metaphor.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,845

    Freedom of speech is freedom from government limiting speech. Employers can certainly monitor and punish employees for speech they deem inappropriate. To put it another way, she had the freedom to say what she said, but the employer also has the freedom to fire her for it. 

    GhavriggPhryMazingerZTacticalZombeh
    Raging Demons for all flowchart "Kens". This is a metaphor.
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,888
    I guess I needed to make it clearer that JP is just a small piece to this puzzle. 

    You see, that's the thing. There is no 'puzzle'. It just seems like you are attempting to thow chaff into the air to distract from a very simple situation.


    hanshotfirstBaitnessMazingerZTacticalZombehvorrin5YashaXGaendric
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,045
    edited July 2018
    Honestly I haven't liked the new Guild Wars 2 game, the Original series was the best, but Guild Wars 2 doesn't feel like a great game at all it's been going in the wrong direction, the cosmetic choices suck, the lack of customization without paying money every time is insane, and over-all game-play really has no purpose or real feeling to it.

    And no I do not feel that Employee should be fired for what they have or post on social media unless they come out and say something hateful that represents the company as a whole within a comment or post, which does not include just having in your profile you work for Arena Net, or another company and such people should legally be allowed to do that unless they sign an agreement that says otherwise or NDA.

    Socialmedia should be protected from people  harassing employee outside of work but people have to fear that they may get fired just because they post a picture of someone holding a firearm on social media hunting, for example a person could lose their job because the owner doesn't like firearms or support it.

    Even being a member of the # NRA for example and wearing a NRA hat in a Facebook post could get you fired I would think, and that is why I think there need to be laws put in place to limit employee from being fired for stuff that happens outside the properly unless it is a violation of the Law.
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,325
    I don't know how some of you people seem to be surprised that people get fired for posting questionable stuff on social media. Social media is not private space, never was. There was an old saying about things put on paper, it applies tenfold in stuff written on the internet.

    As for whether something should be protected or not, it is largely irrelevant to the situation. It doesn't matter what should happen, it only matters what actually happens. If there was any justice, game journalists would be promoting Frey's case equally if not stronger than Price's. But they don't. They should have, but they don't.

    This whole case is like watching the gaming media trying to defend the perpetrator of a domestic violence incident, while victim shaming the target of her attack. That's why it leaves such a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Tribe association trampled integrity and justice.
    Gobstopper3DMazingerZTacticalZombeh
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,690
    I think the worst part of it all is that the industry has now "learned" that hiring female staff could potentially raise more issues then hiring male staff. Positive discrimination is also discrimination and just as damaging.

    Some companies will think twice about hiring a woman now, some might be incouraged to hire more women. Whatever the outcome, it is NOT supporting equality of the sexes. The problem also is that Price doesn't want equal rights at all, she wants to be the alpha male (ha! irony) and topdog, snarking down to those below. Can you imagine a male talking down to a female as publicly as she did and think it would be ok? Honestly? He would be hunted and chastised. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Gobstopper3DDakeruMazingerZSBFordYashaX
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Member UncommonPosts: 712
    Ahnog said:

    Freedom of speech is freedom from government limiting speech. Employers can certainly monitor and punish employees for speech they deem inappropriate. To put it another way, she had the freedom to say what she said, but the employer also has the freedom to fire her for it. 

    Respectfully, that's not entirely accurate. Freedom of speech is a principle, and at least in the US, regarded as an inalienable right. You're conflating it with the 1st Amendment, which is nothing more than a Constitutional guarantee the government won't infringe on said rights.

    You are correct however that employers are not necessarily beholden to the 1st Amendment. 

    Or to put it another way: private forums/individuals/institutions do not always have to honor or respect your rights. Rather they are afforded the right of free association, and to act in their own self interest.

    In part, this is why the SCOTUS overturned the Colorado same-sex wedding cake case.
  • marksteelemarksteele Member UncommonPosts: 59
    I find it interesting that there's such a backlash due to anet pandering to their fans. I mean, stop and think about it for a bit, their fans are their profit, it they're not happy anet isn't making money. When it comes down to it, developers are a dime a dozen and if the fans aren't happy then they aren't paying. It makes perfect sense to prioritize pacifying their payerbase over their development team.,
  • GaleOmGaleOm Member UncommonPosts: 28
    I have read Bills article and something feels odd there. ANet is company who have, from time to time, invested in this site( through some baners or sponsored articles). So I came to assumption that a) MMORPG.COM stuff is not that bright and try to cut one of investers with some hearsay article( and I think it`s less likely), or b) this article is marketing plot done in colaboration with ANet( and I think it`s more likely because readers that way argue in MO`s behalf and grow sympathy for him).


  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,482
    I find it interesting that there's such a backlash due to anet pandering to their fans. I mean, stop and think about it for a bit, their fans are their profit, it they're not happy anet isn't making money. When it comes down to it, developers are a dime a dozen and if the fans aren't happy then they aren't paying. It makes perfect sense to prioritize pacifying their payerbase over their development team.,
    This is the truth. The customers are the people to whom any business is most obligated to favor in a conflict, and there is nothing wrong with that.

    It has become a dirty thing to side with the customer in our industry because of the running narrative that gamers are in some way bad people. We've been dehumanized and reduced to a hivemind of misogynistic trolls because that lie makes us into a compelling scapegoat for complex issues.
    MisterZebubEponyxDamorYashaXMadFrenchiehanshotfirst
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    This debate really doesn't really need to go any further. It was pretty clean cut. There's no mud or grey area. I really don't get what the drawn out back and forth is for.
    It's because bill has inside info on the last founder and is holding it against him.  But as many have stated, that is not the issue here.  And I'm a bit disappointed that Bill is hinting at things rather than keeping that info to himself.  He's not making any claims and so there's no way to defend against them.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 10,775
    lahnmir said:
    I think the worst part of it all is that the industry has now "learned" that hiring female staff could potentially raise more issues then hiring male staff. Positive discrimination is also discrimination and just as damaging.

    Some companies will think twice about hiring a woman now, some might be incouraged to hire more women. Whatever the outcome, it is NOT supporting equality of the sexes. The problem also is that Price doesn't want equal rights at all, she wants to be the alpha male (ha! irony) and topdog, snarking down to those below. Can you imagine a male talking down to a female as publicly as she did and think it would be ok? Honestly? He would be hunted and chastised. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Rather than making them reluctant to hire women, i think it might just encourage employers to have a closer look to a potential employees history, Jessica Price had more than a few red flags in hers that should have precluded her employment at Arenanet in the first place.
    Rain_DeathravenEponyxDamorAeanderlahnmirYashaX
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