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Guild Wars 2 - Bill Murphy - ArenaNet and the Wisdom of Not Doing Anything - MMORPG.com

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  • MazingerZMazingerZ Member UncommonPosts: 52
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Nobody is debating that.  We are saying that someone offering a differing opinion doesn't make it sexism.  Yet she was super quick to invoke that card and act like a victim.
    Not only that but when she immediately went there and started going on about mansplaining that harms the credibility of the legitimate occasions when this is the case and it invites the reactionary hordes who want to deny that it exists as a real issue to pile on.

    She made a very detailed and interesting series of tweets explaining why it's much easier to give player characters depth in single player games because those characters' personality is more pre-defined by the game.

    Deroir's response about branching did not have the same level of depth as her tweets and when I read it I immediately thought that it would lead to a complex and unwieldy mess of never ending branches that would be hugely resource intensive.

    I expected her to dismiss his response on that basis and Peter actually did touch on that in one of his tweets. But instead she was rude and defensive when she could have simply said something along the lines of what Peter eventually said.

    But she didn't stop there. She then retweeted Deroir's comment as a "women in gaming" issue when it was nothing of the sort. That was a truly WTF tweet. Even her original response, unnecessarily rude as it was, amounted to nothing more than "You amateur. Me pro. Piss off." Not a great response but damage could have been controlled if she had just left it at that.

    It was precisely when she tried to turn it into something about sexism that she opened the floodgates and turned it into a shit show. 
    MadFrenchie[Deleted User]AeanderlaxieJamesGoblinThreatlevel0FrodoFraginsalkarionlogTacticalZombehYashaX
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    You don't try to publicly shame a customer as a company representative unless the action of the customer was objectively reprehensible.  She did so, and that was the signature on her pink slip.
    JamesGoblinLeiloni

    image
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,516
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.

      Yep if it happens on internet then it is true.

     Pssssssst: I work in similar business and nobody is, CAN or should be sexist to anybody ... but your experience from reddit is different I  understand.

    Developer Blogs, and I, I would wager, unlike some of you, have a few developers as Facebook friends and we trade dog pictures and talk about where we eat and life and shit (sometimes we even discuss work).  Not to mention I have 2 family members in the gaming industry,one of which is a female.

    But hey.. thanks for the wrong assumptions and rampant ignorance.
    alkarionlog
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,171
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:
    Since I get to read this stuff as I post it, all I can say is nicely done @billmurphy !

    My favorite comment in all of this that, I believe, should be shouted from the rooftops:

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be. Quite often, it’s the opposite: he’s a founder and the company president, but there’s a reason he’s the only founder left at the company. There’s a reason many of the people who were responsible for the sky-high dreams of Guild Wars 2 left for other studios. There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."
    The comment that tip toes around libel to imply there's something ominous if not abundantly shameful about ArenaNet's Mike O’Brien? 

    That's what MMORPG.com's News Manager believes should be shouted from the rooftops?
    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    And what you an others who keep arguing the Mike O'Brien angle are failing to understand is that most of us don't give a rats fucking ass if the Jessica Price fiasco could have been handled differently, for the very opinion you just gave of her. She has shown herself to be completely lacking in any self awareness that her behavior was in any way wrong. She is totally unrepentant, off the rails, and has continued after her firing to try to drag Anet and Mike O'Brien's names through the mud by claiming they are now also part of the male dominating conspiracy that got her fired. When in fact its her inability to not act like a rabid asshole that caused her fall from grace. Gee, just like her last job. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Bill might have insider information that Mike O'Brien is indeed an asshole, but we the public sure as fuck don't. But what we do see, right out in public, bold as brass, is one spoiled little toxic dickhead continuing on her little imaginary crusade and we're fucking appalled by it. And we're doubly appalled that some gaming sites are trying to deflect and spin this as anything but Jessica Price shooting herself in the foot with both barrels by being breathtakingly vicious, rude, bigoted, and down right delusional. How anyone can sit there and say she should have been given another chance is beyond the pale.
    It's almost like you didn't read the post you quoted.  I said straight up that you (we) as gamers aren't looking at it from the perspective of developers, and only look at it from what we see from Price. My point wasn't from Jessica Price or Peter Fries, but other developers in general, and then you basically stated, in a much more bombastic way, exactly what I was saying, that 1, she should have been fired, and 2, that you don't know nor care what it looks like from the developers perspective.


    The point I'm making is, if you were an employee at Anet and saw two developers getting fired, Price was an easy nope, Fries, that was a little much considering the circumstance.  Lets not pretend that what he did was indefensible, that could have simply been explained away in a quick statement that Fries was trying (and failing) to deescalate the situation.  In all honesty if that happened, nobody would have cared one way or another because they would be focused on the real damage dealer, Price, who was unapologetically crass in her responses. 

    So from an internal observer of what happened, it could simply be demoralizing to know that your "boss" wouldn't have your back in Peters case, no strikes, no warnings, just gone, and in that way MO could easily be seen as a bad boss, a jerk, whatever.


    But that is independent of Price.  At least how I perceive it, MO being a jerk is related but segregated from JP.
    MadFrenchie[Deleted User]



  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,516
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    maskedweaselJeffSpicolin3v3rriv3ralkarionlog
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,812
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Nobody is debating that.  We are saying that someone offering a differing opinion doesn't make it sexism.  Yet she was super quick to invoke that card and act like a victim.
    Not only that but when she immediately went there and started going on about mansplaining that harms the credibility of the legitimate occasions when this is the case and it invites the reactionary hordes who want to deny that it exists as a real issue to pile on.

    She made a very detailed and interesting series of tweets explaining why it's much easier to give player characters depth in single player games because those characters' personality is more pre-defined by the game.

    Deroir's response about branching did not have the same level of depth as her tweets and when I read it I immediately thought that it would lead to a complex and unwieldy mess of never ending branches that would be hugely resource intensive.

    I expected her to dismiss his response on that basis and Peter actually did touch on that in one of his tweets. But instead she was rude and defensive when she could have simply said something along the lines of what Peter eventually said.

    But she didn't stop there. She then retweeted Deroir's comment as a "women in gaming" issue when it was nothing of the sort. That was a truly WTF tweet. Even her original response, unnecessarily rude as it was, amounted to nothing more than "You amateur. Me pro. Piss off." Not a great response but damage could have been controlled if she had just left it at that.

    It was precisely when she tried to turn it into something about sexism that she opened the floodgates and turned it into a shit show. 
    That's the strange thing about all of this. Had she been civil, or at least admitted her mistake early enough to apologize and course correct, no one would be talking about this and nothing would have happened.

    Price's opinion was in every financially practical sense correct. Deroir's opinion was vague, unhelpful, and impractical, even if it was polite and respectful. We've already seen branching MMO narrative in vanilla Guild Wars 2, and the results of this were an expensive, mediocre story. Price had no right or reason to take offense to him, but also had no need to respond at all. 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited July 2018
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    maskedweaselEponyxDamor

    image
  • vorrin5vorrin5 Member UncommonPosts: 71
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:
    Since I get to read this stuff as I post it, all I can say is nicely done @billmurphy !

    My favorite comment in all of this that, I believe, should be shouted from the rooftops:

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be. Quite often, it’s the opposite: he’s a founder and the company president, but there’s a reason he’s the only founder left at the company. There’s a reason many of the people who were responsible for the sky-high dreams of Guild Wars 2 left for other studios. There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."
    The comment that tip toes around libel to imply there's something ominous if not abundantly shameful about ArenaNet's Mike O’Brien? 

    That's what MMORPG.com's News Manager believes should be shouted from the rooftops?
    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    And what you an others who keep arguing the Mike O'Brien angle are failing to understand is that most of us don't give a rats fucking ass if the Jessica Price fiasco could have been handled differently, for the very opinion you just gave of her. She has shown herself to be completely lacking in any self awareness that her behavior was in any way wrong. She is totally unrepentant, off the rails, and has continued after her firing to try to drag Anet and Mike O'Brien's names through the mud by claiming they are now also part of the male dominating conspiracy that got her fired. When in fact its her inability to not act like a rabid asshole that caused her fall from grace. Gee, just like her last job. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Bill might have insider information that Mike O'Brien is indeed an asshole, but we the public sure as fuck don't. But what we do see, right out in public, bold as brass, is one spoiled little toxic dickhead continuing on her little imaginary crusade and we're fucking appalled by it. And we're doubly appalled that some gaming sites are trying to deflect and spin this as anything but Jessica Price shooting herself in the foot with both barrels by being breathtakingly vicious, rude, bigoted, and down right delusional. How anyone can sit there and say she should have been given another chance is beyond the pale.
    It's almost like you didn't read the post you quoted.  I said straight up that you (we) as gamers aren't looking at it from the perspective of developers, and only look at it from what we see from Price. My point wasn't from Jessica Price or Peter Fries, but other developers in general, and then you basically stated, in a much more bombastic way, exactly what I was saying, that 1, she should have been fired, and 2, that you don't know nor care what it looks like from the developers perspective.


    The point I'm making is, if you were an employee at Anet and saw two developers getting fired, Price was an easy nope, Fries, that was a little much considering the circumstance.  Lets not pretend that what he did was indefensible, that could have simply been explained away in a quick statement that Fries was trying (and failing) to deescalate the situation.  In all honesty if that happened, nobody would have cared one way or another because they would be focused on the real damage dealer, Price, who was unapologetically crass in her responses. 

    So from an internal observer of what happened, it could simply be demoralizing to know that your "boss" wouldn't have your back in Peters case, no strikes, no warnings, just gone, and in that way MO could easily be seen as a bad boss, a jerk, whatever.


    But that is independent of Price.  At least how I perceive it, MO being a jerk is related but segregated from JP.
    I mentioned this before but, since Jessica played the gender card, she forced their hand on Peter. They couldn't keep him employed or she could point to him as proof that ANet discriminates based on gender.

    Edit: I should also point out that Peter reinforced it being about gender in his deleted tweets, so he helped force their hand as well.
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,171
    SBFord said:

    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    And what you an others who keep arguing the Mike O'Brien angle are failing to understand is that most of us don't give a rats fucking ass if the Jessica Price fiasco could have been handled differently, for the very opinion you just gave of her. She has shown herself to be completely lacking in any self awareness that her behavior was in any way wrong. She is totally unrepentant, off the rails, and has continued after her firing to try to drag Anet and Mike O'Brien's names through the mud by claiming they are now also part of the male dominating conspiracy that got her fired. When in fact its her inability to not act like a rabid asshole that caused her fall from grace. Gee, just like her last job. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Bill might have insider information that Mike O'Brien is indeed an asshole, but we the public sure as fuck don't. But what we do see, right out in public, bold as brass, is one spoiled little toxic dickhead continuing on her little imaginary crusade and we're fucking appalled by it. And we're doubly appalled that some gaming sites are trying to deflect and spin this as anything but Jessica Price shooting herself in the foot with both barrels by being breathtakingly vicious, rude, bigoted, and down right delusional. How anyone can sit there and say she should have been given another chance is beyond the pale.
    It's almost like you didn't read the post you quoted.  I said straight up that you (we) as gamers aren't looking at it from the perspective of developers, and only look at it from what we see from Price. My point wasn't from Jessica Price or Peter Fries, but other developers in general, and then you basically stated, in a much more bombastic way, exactly what I was saying, that 1, she should have been fired, and 2, that you don't know nor care what it looks like from the developers perspective.


    The point I'm making is, if you were an employee at Anet and saw two developers getting fired, Price was an easy nope, Fries, that was a little much considering the circumstance.  Lets not pretend that what he did was indefensible, that could have simply been explained away in a quick statement that Fries was trying (and failing) to deescalate the situation.  In all honesty if that happened, nobody would have cared one way or another because they would be focused on the real damage dealer, Price, who was unapologetically crass in her responses. 

    So from an internal observer of what happened, it could simply be demoralizing to know that your "boss" wouldn't have your back in Peters case, no strikes, no warnings, just gone, and in that way MO could easily be seen as a bad boss, a jerk, whatever.


    But that is independent of Price.  At least how I perceive it, MO being a jerk is related but segregated from JP.
    Oh I read it I chose to ignore it as I'd already stated my opinion on Fries before. Here's what I said previously. When Fries came to the defense of Price and told Dreoir his input was not asked for, he then also defended all of Price's bad behavior. He stopped being an innocent bystander or collateral damage and instead became a co-conspirator. He acted with no more self awareness of how wrong his or Price's actions were so therefore is just as guilty.
    Then to that, we disagree.  I don't believe what he did was nearly as bad, and he seemed much more reasonable.

    From the perspective of a boss, which I've been over departments before, it comes down to the work though.  It doesn't seem like they valued either of them,  but if Fries work was valued at all, it would not have been too tough to have kept him.  

    This entire conversation would be largely the same if Fries kept his job.  You'd still have some people who would want him fired, which would be largely overblown, but it wouldn't be any kind of outrage from anyone else apart from those pushing a sexism agenda. "He kept the job she lost the job"  but in an infraction sense, she was way worse than he was.

    And that's likely why he was fired in the first place, not from his comments, as Price was too quick to cry sexism, if he didn't get fired, MO would have plenty of allegations thrown his way from her about why she was let go and peter wasn't....  His "defense" of her actions was really a half ass defense, however misguided an illogical as it was, but hardly attacking customers.

    And that goes back into why firing them both was the easiest thing. Why MO did what was easy, not necessarily what was "heroic".



  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r Member UncommonPosts: 496
    edited July 2018
    lahnmir said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.

      Yep if it happens on internet then it is true.

     Pssssssst: I work in similar business and nobody is, CAN or should be sexist to anybody ... but your experience from reddit is different I  understand.

    Developer Blogs, and I, I would wager, unlike some of you, have a few developers as Facebook friends and we trade dog pictures and talk about where we eat and life and shit (sometimes we even discuss work).  Not to mention I have 2 family members in the gaming industry,one of which is a female.

    But hey.. thanks for the wrong assumptions and rampant ignorance.

    oh you have facebook friends well good for you  mate  <3

    so now you read stories from blogs and also your "family"?

    cool. the plot thickens ... tell me more.. she reported anyone? or is she a keyboard warrior like you?

    Well, your "similar business" credentials are just as worthless as his Facebook friends so you can drop the attitude. I bet women in your country have 50% of the jobs at the top and get payed exactly the same as their male counterparts too.....

    And the part about people not being sexist in the industry or more idiotic even, not being able too, is laughable at best. Don't be ignorant.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

     great. now you are white knighting for a white knight. this is hilarious  :)

    you know what is the problem with white knights? Instead of helping women they weep and cry with them.

    They are also inherently sexists because they think that all women are weak and helpless. 

    see buddy, you should not be so ignorant and read about the pay gap and other stuff you are writing about. helps for not writing idiotic stuff on forums

    /toodledoo


    oh. and about my credentials.... thats the point Einstein. it is the internet but I am not whining about pay gap, sexism and other stuff. the burden of proof is not on me... agreed?
  • vorrin5vorrin5 Member UncommonPosts: 71
    edited July 2018

    Then to that, we disagree.  I don't believe what he did was nearly as bad, and he seemed much more reasonable.

    From the perspective of a boss, which I've been over departments before, it comes down to the work though.  It doesn't seem like they valued either of them,  but if Fries work was valued at all, it would not have been too tough to have kept him.  

    This entire conversation would be largely the same if Fries kept his job.  You'd still have some people who would want him fired, which would be largely overblown, but it wouldn't be any kind of outrage from anyone else apart from those pushing a sexism agenda. "He kept the job she lost the job"  but in an infraction sense, she was way worse than he was.

    And that's likely why he was fired in the first place, not from his comments, as Price was too quick to cry sexism, if he didn't get fired, MO would have plenty of allegations thrown his way from her about why she was let go and peter wasn't....  His "defense" of her actions was really a half ass defense, however misguided an illogical as it was, but hardly attacking customers.

    And that goes back into why firing them both was the easiest thing. Why MO did what was easy, not necessarily what was "heroic".
    I would argue that it was his only choice. The backlash for keeping Peter employed would surely outweigh what they have faced for firing him. Notice how articles mostly gloss over his firing and keep handing her a soap box to shout from. Peter has been smart and not added fuel to the fire, but I don't believe that the conversation would be largely the same if he was still at ANet.

    MO chose the smart option. There is no "heroic" option in this situation.
    maskedweasel
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    lahnmir said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.

      Yep if it happens on internet then it is true.

     Pssssssst: I work in similar business and nobody is, CAN or should be sexist to anybody ... but your experience from reddit is different I  understand.

    Developer Blogs, and I, I would wager, unlike some of you, have a few developers as Facebook friends and we trade dog pictures and talk about where we eat and life and shit (sometimes we even discuss work).  Not to mention I have 2 family members in the gaming industry,one of which is a female.

    But hey.. thanks for the wrong assumptions and rampant ignorance.

    oh you have facebook friends well good for you  mate  <3

    so now you read stories from blogs and also your "family"?

    cool. the plot thickens ... tell me more.. she reported anyone? or is she a keyboard warrior like you?

    Well, your "similar business" credentials are just as worthless as his Facebook friends so you can drop the attitude. I bet women in your country have 50% of the jobs at the top and get payed exactly the same as their male counterparts too.....

    And the part about people not being sexist in the industry or more idiotic even, not being able too, is laughable at best. Don't be ignorant.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    great. now you are white knighting for a white knight. this is hilarious  :)

    you know what is the problem with white knights? Instead of helping women they weep and cry with them.

    They are also inherently sexists because they think that all women are weak and helpless. 

    see buddy, you should not be so ignorant and read about the pay gap and other stuff you are writing about. helps for not writing idiotic stuff on forums

    /toodledoo

    Ohh please, drop the attitude, I am not impressed. And talking about existing sexism and gender inequality is white knighting now? What planet are you from?

    I guess in your Fairyland half of the positions at the top are fulfilled by women and they get payed exactly the same as men? I don't think so. And then some lovely personal attacks while providing absolutely nothing to support your infantile and ignorant claims. You're rude, rude and clueless, you sure your last name isn't Price? Laughable at best and insulting to the people that have to deal with these issues, grow up.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir 
    alkarionlog
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    So if sexism is so very real and very common, then you should have no problems at all stating at least 2 examples of it.
    Don't you just hate it when people make generic accusations without any kind of facts to back them up, i really hope you are not one of those people. :/
    alkarionlog
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2018
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    I'm just reading a news feed and Daniella Greenbaum was fired (forced to resign) from Business Insider for writing a column suggesting Scarlett Johanson should be able to play a trans man. Which shows both how easy it is to lose your job and how journalism has devolved into clickbait activism.

    Sanity does not produce enough controversy for those hate peddlers. Which is also why those ghouls at Forbes are grave dancing over Totalbiscuit's grave.
    Phry[Deleted User]hanshotfirst
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,171
     Fries stopped being a useful employee the minute he publicly turned against the very customers that insure A-Net continues to exist and make a profit. Does it suck? Sure, but that's reality.

    See, again, I disagree, that isn't why he stopped being a useful employee.  In fact, if he was good at his job, then he was still a useful employee.  His response wasn't harsh at all.  

    It's way more likely he's gone due to price playing the sexist card than his mild defense attempt. Either that or he was completely expendable. 

    Either way, what's done is done.  We don't know exactly the inner workings of what happened, and Bill may have some insight that we don't that he can't publicly disclose due to ... perhaps those that told him being at risk, knowing what he may know about MO.

    And that's really all I was saying. To say there weren't other ways to handle Fries is incorrect, but it was handled how MO and it can't be changed. My point wasn't to say that what happened was wrong in some way necessarily, I'm just trying to validate that MOs choices don't make him out to be something more than he is. 



  • Starbuck1771Starbuck1771 Member UncommonPosts: 375
    Sadly I disagree Bill. This woman had several chances to change and had been fired from companies due to simular issues previously. This is the same woman who said she was glad a member of the GW2 community died of cancer. No matter how one sided your editorial is there is no excuse for her actions and that disgusting and disrespectful woman got what she deserved. She made herself a liability nobody else is to blame. Btw try to at least get both sides of the story.
    LeiloniYashaX

    image
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,266
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:


    Then to that, we disagree.  I don't believe what he did was nearly as bad, and he seemed much more reasonable.

    From the perspective of a boss, which I've been over departments before, it comes down to the work though.  It doesn't seem like they valued either of them,  but if Fries work was valued at all, it would not have been too tough to have kept him.  

    This entire conversation would be largely the same if Fries kept his job.  You'd still have some people who would want him fired, which would be largely overblown, but it wouldn't be any kind of outrage from anyone else apart from those pushing a sexism agenda. "He kept the job she lost the job"  but in an infraction sense, she was way worse than he was.

    And that's likely why he was fired in the first place, not from his comments, as Price was too quick to cry sexism, if he didn't get fired, MO would have plenty of allegations thrown his way from her about why she was let go and peter wasn't....  His "defense" of her actions was really a half ass defense, however misguided an illogical as it was, but hardly attacking customers.

    And that goes back into why firing them both was the easiest thing. Why MO did what was easy, not necessarily what was "heroic".
    They both acted with appalling arrogance and lack of forethought, and tarnished the reputation of a company and brand name of which they are only a small part. So a business decision had to be made, and business decisions by their very nature are rarely kind.

    As my former boss once said, "It's not personal, it's just business." She was explaining to us how she dealt with situations at work where her initial reaction was somewhat emotional. This line was her way of reminding herself that there's no reason to be upset or anything else because at the end of the day, work related decisions are made to get the job done and for the best of the company, not because of any personal feelings about a person or situation.
    Starbuck1771[Deleted User]
  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member EpicPosts: 1,960
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    So less women in the games industry until recently = sexism. Okay, sure. 

    I'm sure the fact that women weren't as interested in the industry (and still aren't) overall as men are had / has nothing  to do with that. Nope, nope, it's all because of widespread SEXISM due to the evil machinations of the patriarchy, the same one which ensures men get screwed in divorce court and child custody battles. That's why the mere accusation of rape or any kind of sexual misconduct against a man can ruin his whole life, even if the woman was found to be lying. Yup, patriarchy!

    Oh, and let me guess, the over-exaggerated pay gap doesn't exist due to men's preference to seek higher paying, more time intensive employment than women, who would rather spend their time at home as opposed to the office (NOT a bad thing at all)? Nope, it's because of sexism! The fact that young professional women in their 20's make about 3% more than their male counterparts in the same field just doesn't exist either, does it?

    The only place where women have to 'constantly deal with sexism' in this day and age is in that grey mass of jelly between your ears. I'm not saying there are no incidents of it at all (as with racism, homophobia, religious discrimination, etc.), but suggesting it's some sort of widespread problem in any industry today is absolutely laughable. I've certainly never seen it, and you'd better believe I'd stand against it if I did. 

    Remember the days when employers could just give jobs to the most qualified applicants without having to worry about whether or not they employed enough (insert gender, racial, ethnic group here) to placate the screaming masses of perpetually offended snowflakes and meet racist / sexist government regulations? Good times. 
    Starbuck1771NephethYashaX

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

    We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD. 

    #IStandWithVic

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,516
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    Starbuck1771YashaX
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    No, I think it does harm beause it does.  She's chicken little.
    Starbuck1771AeanderYashaX

    image
  • HyperpsycrowHyperpsycrow Member RarePosts: 910
    So guildwars 2 is dead now? :p




  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    edited July 2018
    Ungood said:
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    Jessica Price described the meeting where Mike O'Brien fired her, as a man using his position of power to make a woman listen to his frustration that her actions hurt what they were accomplishing at Arenanet together.

    If any interaction between a man and woman, where the man position doesn't match the woman position is sexism, then sexism is meaningless.

    Where the hell in western societies do you find any adult aged under 40 (more likely under 60, everyone here heard about the sixties right and that was almost 60 years ago), that believe men and women aren't equal intellect wise?

    Sexism should have never been used in this discussion and the gaming media should have criticised Jessica Price for using sexism in this situation.

    She was not harassed, she was not disrespected. The fan just wanted more information. Knowing his background he wouldn't have cared if JP would have said "what you suggest isn't feasible as a solution for this. for starters it would cost too much."

    Sexism is a straw man. She was rude but instead of admitting it or just letting it go she changed the subject to sexism and she being a victim. In the end something bad happen to her, losing her job, but it was her creation but maybe she didn't thought it was possible because maybe she is surrounded by people like the gaming media that create this narrative that simply doesn't echo with majority of the people outside those small bubbles (yes, they are small, but if they are the only people you interact with, maybe you believe it is everyone).
    [Deleted User]

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
    edited July 2018
    The Verge has put up a lengthy, but well-researched and documented article titled "ArenaNet firings cast a chill shadow over the games industry". It's not short and it goes far beyond the Price firing. It's a good read for those inclined to see the wider impact of this week's events.

    I dunno...it was an interesting read. Not sure it changes anything though. :D

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

    “This incident makes very clear the perils of social media for game developers, especially when transparent and well-understood guidelines for staff members are not in place,” the IGDA post reads. “Game developers are also frequently targeted for harassment, particularly if they are members of under-represented communities. Companies must plan for how they will support their staff members in the event of online harassment, and should clearly communicate the resources they will make available to their team to have safe, productive, and positive interactions online, especially if they are expected to do so in their roles.”

    AeanderPemminJeffSpicoliNephethYashaXJeleena


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


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