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Guild Wars 2 - Bill Murphy - ArenaNet and the Wisdom of Not Doing Anything - MMORPG.com

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  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    edited July 2018
    I just can't believe that respectful gaming sites like Kotaku , mmorpg ....try to defend this human being (if i say woman maybe some people will say i'm sexist)
    Considering what happened when Riot fired someone for desiring a toxic streamer that has been banned to die, ie crickets from the press defending the guy, it seems they are defending her because she is a woman and an activist.

    Anyone reasonable understands she was rude to deroir (an arenanet partner with its own in game NPC). It could have ended there (my own own opinion was that deroir comment wasn't exacting touching her argument, but it wasn't a harsh criticism of her work either as Living story structure was set before she came on board, but whatever). Deroir even apologised and left. Deroir, a guy that had just streamed the previous day that he loved how Jessica Price answered question in the reddit AMA, calling her a God of AMAs.

    Everyone has a bad day, it is understandable.

    But she was not happy with that. She proceeded to castigate him, accusing him of being sexist and going on and on. Even saying she didn't have to pretend she liked the community in her own twitter, the implication being she is lying when she interacts with the community (we all do that when interacting with some of our costumers, but we don't say that).

    One can say the punishment was too hard, but the way she behaved after, doesn't seem to indicate that. Everything is about her being a woman, it can never be because she was wrong and acted wrong.

    And people keep forgetting that Arenanet are trigger happy with banning community members from their forums for being toxic. In the early days, there used to be a lot of complaints in these forums on how Arenanet were forum nazis.

    Mike O'brien simply stood by the company principles - no toxicity allowed.
    Just because she is a woman that is an activist for women rights, she doesn't get a free pass on common decency when representing Arenanet (she was talking about the game, following a reddit AMA done by Anet, in a twitter account where she states she works at Anet), especially when she likes to accuse other of toxicity when she is the one being toxic.

    She made a mistake. The gaming media completely ignored that mistake because she is a tribe member.

    Arenanet is clearly a company that promotes diversity, women rights, homosexual rights and transgender rights, and they are not afraid of showing it in their game.

    MO statements are reasonable and just common sense that anyone that doesn't have a tribe tshirt on will understand.

    This is the case when people are damaging their agendas by not being able to recognise that members of their tribe can be wrong.

    MadFrenchieRidelynnPhryJeleenaNycteliosblamo2000ysquare21

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    edited July 2018
    She definitely should have been fired. You don't just shit all over someone for offering constructive criticism, talk about how you don't like the fans/customers but only pretend while on the clock, and falsely claim sexism where there was none along with a bunch of other crap and expect nothing to come of it.

    Deroir is an Anet partner, and was streaming and praising her for being amazing with her Q&A's and shit like a couple days before, and then when trying to interact with her, got basically told he was a useless, random piece of shit for absolutely no reason.

    There is no defending her response to Deroir, and it seems pretty simple that her being fired was the best course of action to take.

    Peter Fries, of course, had to go too, because they were both bringing up gender issues, so Anet couldn't just get rid of the vagina and keep the penis around. I found his posts pretty annoying, as well, but he didn't start the problem, so not sure if he really should have been fired. He white knighted for the wrong person, though, so whatever.

    Phry
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited July 2018
    Aeander said:
    Tamanous said:
    Sorry Bill. You picked the wrong side of this argument. Too many other IP's are being appropriated from their original audiences and too many XXXgates are going on all because social justice warriors force their agenda upon everyone who merely want drama free and quality products. Diversity arises through variety of product and not through appropriation.

    ArenaNet clearly sees how certain multi-billion dollar IPs are being destroyed and losing their core audience along with hemorrhaging earnings because of it. They had to do this. They had to set a precedence. The paying customer has to be respected and employees cannot force their own political agenda not shared by their employer.

    SJWs are a cancer within profit based industries. They insult their audience (i.e. Marvel, LucasFilm) through social media and tell them if they don't like their "art", they can stop buying it. They attack anyone against their narrative even if it's a valid argument (this is exactly what happened here), force their own agenda even if not relevant and play the victim card and even go so far as to create fictitious or highly exaggerated stories of damsels in distress. This has been repeated across each and every industry they have gotten their hands into.

    The ONLY outcome with allowing this sort of hate speech to continue (oh the irony) is to nip it in the bud IMMEDIATELY or else the company will face titanic losses and audience backlash much like LucasFilm is currently facing.

    The stakes are far greater than you make it out to be Bill. The head of ArenaNet may very well be an asshole in his own right but at least he sees the true impact of doing nothing. Customers feel powerless these days. They feel abused and manipulated on multiple entertainment industry fronts. As others have said, if nearly ANY NORMAL employee in ANY NORMAL company would have done this they too would have been instantly fired. There is no defending those 2 (but I direct most of it toward Jessica Price). Price had a long history of it.

    The bigger picture here is that this is so fucking widespread that it is cultural now. IP appropriation is real. Organized SJW attacks using social AND mainstream media is real. Disseminating fictional information to support political agendas within non-political industries is real. Anyone clueless to this only has to put some level minded and intelligent research into the current state of Marvel comics (Lord help the movies moving forward), LucasFilm and IPs like Star Wars and Star Trek to see their attempts to completely abandon their canon, historical cultural impact and audiences in favor of agenda based political ideals ... and frankly really shitty story telling that elevates women by deconstructing men.

    ArenaNet had their eyes open enough to see it and I Goddamn fucking applaud them for it. The term "Get WOKE. Go BROKE!" is true, and ArenaNet bloody knows it.
    I'm not even going to touch the whole social justice issue with a ten foot pole here, but I will give my two cents on the reality I see.

    Arenanet is not, has never been, and will not ever be "woke." They are not, as you seem to believe, a conservative company by any means. In fact, they are a liberal company, if anything. More importantly, they are simply a company that respects their customers.

    With one hand, they show respect for their left-leaning and LGBT customers by recognizing community run pride events and including LGBT NPC's, including ones as prominent as Caithe, Faolain, Marjory, and Kasmeer.

    With the other hand, they show all customers that, regardless of political stance, they cannot tolerate two of their own openly disrespecting customers.

    Let's not dilute the conversation by turning this into a political issue. It isn't one. It's a matter of community relations, basic business practice, and nothing else.
    The choice was yes. The reason why it must be done goes beyond that. It's the implications of not doing anything ... the basis for Bill's article and my greater point.

    Basic business practice you mention is not the current norm. It is not practiced by those purposely driving their IP into the dirt so therefore is not so common or simple as you suggest. 

    But I do agree, as stated, that it SHOULD be standard practice. The shocking truth why it is not across the entertainment industry (perhaps you are not familiar with Gamergate) is my point of discussion.

    You stay sassy!

  • TacticalZombehTacticalZombeh Member UncommonPosts: 319
    edited July 2018
    Bill choosing not to mention Sexist comments when saying she didn't make Nazi or Racist comments... yea.

    And added info that brings light to Peter Fries firing... he also made it a gender issue:


    Too lazy to click:
    ---------------
    Peter Fries
    "Also see: lopsided defense of mansplaining in your mentions versus outpouring of sympathy for misunderstood dude in his"
    ---------------
    His behavior in the linked archive is also pretty aggressive.

    I feel better about his firing.

    Pardon if someone already mentioned it. There's 11 pages of comments I don't have time to read through.


    blamo2000
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,570
    edited July 2018
    "This is my long-winded way of saying perhaps Ms. Price should have been disciplined behind company doors, and instructed to either make her Twitter account private or stop using the platform with advertised ties to the company."

    Sure, she should have, but you can tell just by her reaction that she is not the kind of person who would have done that. She would have been fired as a result of refusing to do that, in fact. She clearly has a history and is a pretty despicable person that uses gender as a defense mechanism and pushes sexism towards women forward in a way that sets all women back over 2 decades. This was hardly a PR blunder. They saved face on this one. If they defended her, this would have created a whole nother problem: ArenaNet stands by sexist employee! ArenaNet craps all over fans and doesn't care!
    PhryGaendricblamo2000
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,411
    edited July 2018
     Jessica Price has reflected on her actions and says that in hindsight she would have called Deroir a "condescending jerk" rather than an "asshat" for his attempt to politely discuss story writing in games with her.


    ....
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,570
    If she had some good reflection on the issue, she would not have burned all the bridges she possible could on the way out the door. 
    blamo2000
  • RegnorRegnor Member UncommonPosts: 108
    Just what we need, more drama. I understand this is your opinion piece, Bill, and you're certainly entitled to express your opinion on this site, but in my view all it does is prolong the soap opera in this case. I come here to hear about game developments I care about, not social media gaffes that happens every day in every other context.
    ScotTacticalZombehCelcius

    Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

  • MazingerZMazingerZ Member UncommonPosts: 52
    I'll let this speak for itself.

    http://archive.fo/qnRGu

    While this is an opinion piece, it's a fairly uninformed one.

    She had a history of doing this at Paizo prior to ArenaNet and was fired for it.

    Do you think that this was an isolated incident?  Her Twitter betrays a pattern of vile behavior and one could make the argument that she abused a political ideology in order to be a terrible person.

    PhryYashaXalkarionlogLeiloniblamo2000
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    YashaX said:
     Jessica Price has reflected on her actions and says that in hindsight she would have called Deroir a "condescending jerk" rather than an "asshat" for his attempt to politely discuss story writing in games with her.


    You can't fix stupid
    PhryRidelynnalkarionlog
  • tihi85tihi85 Member UncommonPosts: 20
    edited July 2018
    To me she sounds like a disgusting human being, and it seems she didn't learn anything from this either. All here comments were immature and unprofessional. I don't care if you are a woman or a man, don't be an asshole and a horrible human being.
    I bet if that feedback came from a woman this would be a whole different story, which indicates that she is a sexist.
    alkarionlogblamo2000
  • GodleftGodleft Member CommonPosts: 1
    Lol just "defending" her work. She brought gender into the topic and made herself the victim, she was not defending she was spewing hate. She was acting like a nazi in her tweets. This whole article is basicly the same as the ones written on kotaku and rock paper shotgun. Female entitlement.... Gtfo. if you wanna see unequality between the sexes, go to eastern country's then we will talk again. Left media bullcrap
    YashaXalkarionlogblamo2000
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    MazingerZ said:
    I'll let this speak for itself.

    http://archive.fo/qnRGu

    While this is an opinion piece, it's a fairly uninformed one.

    She had a history of doing this at Paizo prior to ArenaNet and was fired for it.

    Do you think that this was an isolated incident?  Her Twitter betrays a pattern of vile behavior and one could make the argument that she abused a political ideology in order to be a terrible person.

    Really have to wonder how she managed to get a job at Arenanet in the first place given her history, though perhaps now her future employment opportunities will be severely curtailed, at least within the gaming industry, hard to imagine any developer not looking at this more recent debacle and consider her to be too much of a liablilty and disruptive influence. :/
    YashaXalkarionlogblamo2000
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 841
    Phry said:
    Xasapis said:
    Phry said:
    catofmany said:
    Wow, the responses here are just...

    There is a reason i don't call myself a gamer. And this just reeks of it.
    Regardless of which side you favour, such a generic form of condemnation probably means we are all better off if you don't call yourself a gamer too. :o
    For the same reason I don't call myself a Driver, while I drive for over 20 years, I also don't call myself a Gamer despite gaming quite a lot. It's a hobby, not a personality defining characteristic.

    Had I been a professional in the field, then I'd call myself a Gamer.
    As someone who has driven as a profession, although only up to class 2 vehicles (hgv) and on a daily basis because living in the countryside you kind of need to be able to drive, i don't consider myself to be a driver, its just something i did as a job once, i do consider myself to be a gamer though, because its my hobby and something i do have a deep interest in.
    You can think of yourself as being or not being whatever you want, its just an opinion either way, others might not agree with you but that is their opinion and they are just as entitled to them as you are to yours.
    Me i am proud to be a gamer and i make no apology for it, nor feel the need to, if someone doesn't want to call themselves a gamer and blanket condemns others for being one, well there is a word for that too. :/  
    Mental constipation? Jaykay!

    Gut Out!

    What, me worry?

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Bill choosing not to mention Sexist comments when saying she didn't make Nazi or Racist comments... yea.

    And added info that brings light to Peter Fries firing... he also made it a gender issue:


    Too lazy to click:
    ---------------
    Peter Fries
    "Also see: lopsided defense of mansplaining in your mentions versus outpouring of sympathy for misunderstood dude in his"
    ---------------
    His behavior in the linked archive is also pretty aggressive.

    I feel better about his firing.

    Pardon if someone already mentioned it. There's 11 pages of comments I don't have time to read through.


    If i had to guess i would say that they didn't have a choice when it came to Peter Fries, that Jessica Price had to go is not really in question, but she in effect also got her co worker fired too, because by sacking JP they probably could not be seen to be going soft on another employee who really should have known better, though i would have to say i think its highly likely that if it had been another female co-worker of JP that was involved, i think it more likely that JP would have been the only one sacked, sadly in this day and age there are more than a few feminists out there that would have called it gender discrimination.
    I really do not envy Mike Obrian, it was a tough choice and a necessary one, doing nothing would have been the 'easy' choice, doing the right thing however, takes guts, i am just glad that Mike Obrian had them.
    TacticalZombehblamo2000
  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r Member UncommonPosts: 496
    edited July 2018
    Gaming journalism at its best.
    Look at what she said when Total Biscuit passed away

    https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/8wg4pm/what_jessica_price_had_to_say_on_passing_of/


    ... and you are defending this person and simultaneously defaming people in charge of ArenaNet. Look at this thread. Look at how many people are disgusted of your political agenda. Bljah


    .. oh and the op also posted an analogy with PTSD -- this is just laughable and pathetic.  Yes I am so sympathetic towards this person, she is such a sweetheart.  

    We need bully hunters.
    alkarionlogYashaX
  • ManuteManute Member UncommonPosts: 11
    A lot of Devs seem to forget that it is the players who actually sign their paychecks, and we don't deserve to be treated as S**tons.
  • OldSchoolGamerOldSchoolGamer Member UncommonPosts: 226
    edited July 2018
    What the heck is up with these "well respected member of the community and content contributor" comments. Any person that is part of the community should be respected by staff regardless of their supposed "standing". People complain that Price was asserting her "privilege" because she was an employee. The member of the community has no more right to "privilege" than Price did. You have freedom of speech, but that does not protect you from the possible fallout of that speech.

    The only thing wrong I see that the A-net did was fire Fries.

    @BillMurphy, I would completely agree with you 100% as written, except that Price decided to put her company and position in her twitter profile. By doing so, she alone elevated her private account to semi-work account. She alone decided to go sideways with the community and that is a huge no no, especially when the community is being civil with you.
    BillMurphy
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,710
    What the heck is up with this "well respected member of the community and content contributor" comments. Any person that is part of the community should be respected by staff regardless of their supposed "standing". People complain that Price was asserting her "privilege" because she was an employee. The member of the community has no more right to "privilege" than Price did. You have freedom of speech, but that does not protect you from the possible fallout of that speech.

    The only thing wrong I see that the A-net did was fire Fries.

    @BillMurphy, I would completely agree with you 100% as written, except that Price decided to put her company and position in her twitter profile. By doing so, she alone elevated her private account to semi-work account. She alone decided to go sideways with the community and that is a huge no no, especially when the community is being civil with you.
    While I agree in part, mentioning Deroir's status is important for multiple reasons.

    The first is that it clarifies that Price damaged the company by not only disrespecting fans, but also by harassing and defaming an officially sponsored partner.

    The second is that it shows stupidity or lack of knowledge on her part. She should have known full well who he is and why he should have been trustworthy to her. She should have known that he wasn't just an internet troll.

    The third is that it points in the direction of the victim's very public comments praising his harasser prior to the incident. This praise also shows why he specifically reached out to her in the first place, and it makes her treatment of him more tragic. He wasn't just a fan, he was HER fan.
    TacticalZombehYashaX
  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r Member UncommonPosts: 496
    SBFord said:
    Not offering a single opinion about this, but it's interesting and should offer some more fodder for the discussion:

    https://www.gameworkersunite.org/blog/statement-on-the-arenanet-firings

    Regardless of how one feels about Price's actions and regardless of where one draws the line between rudeness and exasperation in Price's tweets, the fact of the matter is that there is an entire spectrum of responses ArenaNet could have taken, but chose not to. The company could have done anything from pulling their employee aside and discussing their behavior, to giving them an internal reprimand and offered them additional training. Instead, ArenaNet, under the clearly inadequate leadership of Mike O'Brien, made the knee-jerk reaction to fire a member of their team. No dialogue, no nuance, no empathy.

    The unethical firings of Price and Fries, together with the reactions of toxic individuals inside and outside of the Guild Wars player community, have had a chilling effect across the industry. Countless workers have been harassed over social media and many are concerned about the implications of this event, some going so far as to delete their personal social media accounts in fear of similar retaliation from hostile players and bosses. ArenaNet has signaled to the entire industry that our job security can be, and almost certainly will be, imperiled by the most vitriolic and volatile players. This event carries echoes of Gamergate, and will only embolden harassers further.


    Yes we need bully hunters for game devs ... oh wait we already have them ... you, gaming "journalists".  MY HEROES!

    *golfclap*
    FrodoFragins
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,257
    cronius77 said:
    Wow, so many people to reply to. So many people being triggered. One could be forgiven for thinking they were all loony lefty snowflakes, because we all know they're the enemies of free speech.

    Unfortunately it's getting on towards 1 am here in good old blighty and I want to see who else has abandoned Theresa the appeaser, the Brexit betrayer. So I'll say goodnight to all and don't have collective apoplexy.
    lol wow dude you took a debate about some girl popping off at the mouth and turned it completely into a red vs blue argument. If anyone's triggered here it's definitely you. I guess you agree with all the videos out there also of idiots using racial slurs towards people , I guess according to your thought process they should just tough it up and stand for that also right? This woman spewed off banter that made the company look bad if they didn't do anything about it. You turned this into some political correctness argument that doesn't exist. What it boils down to is when you disrespect others on social media you can get canned. It's no different than teachers being fired for drunk pics or talking trash on their facebooks. If you have a high profile job which is viral , you have to use your judgement on what you post.
    Got it in one. Yes, I think they should suck it up. It's words not a smack in the mouth. And it's not red vs blue, at least not in my opinion. You either believe in free speech or you oppose it, regardless of where you fall on the political compass.

    I'm neither red nor blue according to the last result I had on a political compass test. I'm very much "in the middle".

    In yet another example used by someone, why the fuck should a teacher get fired for being drunk? So what if he was on facebook. What if he never took the photo, what if it was his mates? He's never allowed to get shitfaced just because he's a teacher?

    The world has gone mad, I tell you.
    For me that's entirely different. A teacher has every right to have drunk photos of themselves on Facebook. That doesn't make the school look bad or anything so I can't imagine getting fired over that. It's just a normal part of life and he should be free to use Facebook for it's purpose -sharing things with friends and family. Did this really happen?
  • MazingerZMazingerZ Member UncommonPosts: 52
    Phry said:
    Really have to wonder how she managed to get a job at Arenanet in the first place given her history, though perhaps now her future employment opportunities will be severely curtailed, at least within the gaming industry, hard to imagine any developer not looking at this more recent debacle and consider her to be too much of a liablilty and disruptive influence. :/
    She managed to get quietly dismissed from Paizo, and the CEO of that company is both a woman (Lisa Stevens) and fairly progressive.

    The indie dev scene is fawning over her and there were a few writers from Arkane Studios who were standing up for her.  But those folks don't make hiring decisions, so it's pretty much not putting their money where their mouth is.

    Randy Pitchford, CEO of Gearbox, gave tepid support, but walked his statements back when he saw this was not an isolated incident, but a pattern of behavior.
    LeiloniYashaX
  • Warhawke80Warhawke80 Member UncommonPosts: 209
    On who actually loses in all of this, though I don't think they realize it yet.

    Gaming journalism. I spent a good deal of time talking to folks I know in the industry, and they are not actually scared the way Jessica Price said.....if anything they are doing the "I told you so" to their superiors and marketers, who are in turn discussing future narrative and how Naive it is to allow just Tom, Dick or Henrietta (see what I did there?) to form a narrative they have zero control over.  

    My prediction from what I am hearing....

    Expect much less cooperation from developers in the future, expect fewer con showings, and more controlled (As in developer run  ) gaming news sites, also much less developer backed revenue. It won't stop fans from still shouting their opinion, but it's going to be damn hard to make any revenue from it.....and the masses will hear the controlled message, they just will.

    I remember gaming journalism sites started because people that loved games, wanted to talk to the awesome folks that made games, and for a time it was a mutual admiration society......like everything else human nature touches that went to shit, for reasons.

    My prediction is by 2020, there will  be maybe one or two independent game journalism sites ran by hard core fans doing it out of just love making zero dollars......the larger game conglomerates will either buy out the more popular sites or will give theme the middle finger, sue them any time they publish something about their company without permission and send their controlled narrative to the news outlet they created, which will have very strict controlled means of communication.

    Congratulations to RPS, The Verge, Kotaku and Ploygon........you created your own demise. 


  • OldSchoolGamerOldSchoolGamer Member UncommonPosts: 226
    Aeander said:
    What the heck is up with this "well respected member of the community and content contributor" comments. Any person that is part of the community should be respected by staff regardless of their supposed "standing". People complain that Price was asserting her "privilege" because she was an employee. The member of the community has no more right to "privilege" than Price did. You have freedom of speech, but that does not protect you from the possible fallout of that speech.

    The only thing wrong I see that the A-net did was fire Fries.

    @BillMurphy, I would completely agree with you 100% as written, except that Price decided to put her company and position in her twitter profile. By doing so, she alone elevated her private account to semi-work account. She alone decided to go sideways with the community and that is a huge no no, especially when the community is being civil with you.
    While I agree in part, mentioning Deroir's status is important for multiple reasons.

    The first is that it clarifies that Price damaged the company by not only disrespecting fans, but also by harassing and defaming an officially sponsored partner.

    The second is that it shows stupidity or lack of knowledge on her part. She should have known full well who he is and why he should have been trustworthy to her. She should have known that he wasn't just an internet troll.

    The third is that it points in the direction of the victim's very public comments praising his harasser prior to the incident. This praise also shows why he specifically reached out to her in the first place, and it makes her treatment of him more tragic. He wasn't just a fan, he was HER fan.
    I understand what you are saying.  I get all that.  My point is, regardless of who it was, she was completely out of bounds going sideways with the community like that.  Because of that and that alone, she got what she deserved and I back A-net for her firing.  Is it unfortunate, absolutely.  Justified?  Absolutely.  Fries on the other hand, a written warning was more than enough punishment from an outsider looking in.  Granted, we don't know his personnel file at A-net, but from everything we do know, termination was the absolute wrong move unless they are attempting to shield themselves from a sexism lawsuit from Price if she plays that card.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,257
    edited July 2018
    MazingerZ said:

    I'll let this speak for itself.

    http://archive.fo/qnRGu

    While this is an opinion piece, it's a fairly uninformed one.

    She had a history of doing this at Paizo prior to ArenaNet and was fired for it.

    Do you think that this was an isolated incident?  Her Twitter betrays a pattern of vile behavior and one could make the argument that she abused a political ideology in order to be a terrible person.

    Just to elaborate on some of her history, Wulfgarion on Reddit posted this nice summary on r/MMORPG.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8wp3b9/jessica_price_to_kotaku_after_the_gw2_incident/e1ya162/
    Roll me in butter and call me a squash, this will take some digging.

    copy pasta of a previous post:

    She was fired for her previous job for this same exact behavior.
    She called a whole country racist and told em to fuck off.
    She claims that Infinity Wars is some sort of nazi propaganda.
    She even gladly celebrated Totalbiscuit's DEATH.
    edit: she also promotes support for terrorist groups like antifa.


    Warhawke80MazingerZYashaX
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