They nurfed all classes

Lord.Bachus

there is such a thing as ballance
but for bfa seems blizzard decided that the gane was to much fun in legion
so they put a huge amount of spells on a gcd
and removed dozens of abilities and hundreds of passives from the game..

one month before release everyone is changing classes
as their old mains all fel bad
and playing a new class is the only way to get over the changes

its a shame, because legion was the most fun i had in this game since wotlk

btdt

If the game played the same from expansion to expansion, you wouldn't play the game anymore.  This is Blizzards way of changing things up.  The only thing that remains consistent is the subscription fee.

some-clueless-guy

Lord.Bachus said:

there is such a thing as ballance
but for bfa seems blizzard decided that the gane was to much fun in legion
so they put a huge amount of spells on a gcd
and removed dozens of abilities and hundreds of passives from the game..

one month before release everyone is changing classes
as their old mains all fel bad
and playing a new class is the only way to get over the changes

its a shame, because legion was the most fun i had in this game since wotlk

I've been watching some reviews of each class and the way each of them plays. I haven't had a sub gong on wow for months and I will keep it that way. In fact, there is really nothing in BfA making me want to checking it out so it might be the first expansion I skip entirely.

Just, for the love of Elune, turn spellcheck on, please. It hurts.

k61977

They are doing the same thing they have done with every xpac, this isn't anything new.  With that said legion wasn't really fun, there was no challenge whatsoever after you leveled up your artifacts.  I mean the fact that I could clear some mythics without needing a healer as a pally tank says a lot about how bad things had gotten.  I have played the new stuff and it is refreshing to need crowd control, healers, real tanks that keep aggro again, those were the things legion pretty much wiped out.  In legion it was just group everything up and AoE it down.  To me it felt like Legion was geared toward solo players the most, in how overpowered everyone was.

tawess

Lord.Bachus said:

there is such a thing as ballance
but for bfa seems blizzard decided that the gane was to much fun in legion
so they put a huge amount of spells on a gcd
and removed dozens of abilities and hundreds of passives from the game..

Welcome to the Druid side of Warcraft where every expansion pretty much re-wrote how the class played.. =P 

You get used to it after a while. 

Derros

k61977 said:

They are doing the same thing they have done with every xpac, this isn't anything new.  With that said legion wasn't really fun, there was no challenge whatsoever after you leveled up your artifacts.  I mean the fact that I could clear some mythics without needing a healer as a pally tank says a lot about how bad things had gotten.  I have played the new stuff and it is refreshing to need crowd control, healers, real tanks that keep aggro again, those were the things legion pretty much wiped out.  In legion it was just group everything up and AoE it down.  To me it felt like Legion was geared toward solo players the most, in how overpowered everyone was.

Wasn't that the exact same thing being said about Wrath to cataclysm?

Linif

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Classes are being reworked because they were designed, in Legion, around their Artifacts. It wasn't good future planning but, Blizzard have never been great at that when it comes to WoW.

But you're saying some players are switching classes for BfA because they don't like how they're redesigning them? I wasn't even aware that BIG changes were happening? Only... what 2 specs were changing drastically?

Scot

Is that not the idea, nerf the old classes so you have to play the new ones, until those get nerfed and you have to play another one?

simsalabim77

Derros said:

k61977 said:

They are doing the same thing they have done with every xpac, this isn't anything new.  With that said legion wasn't really fun, there was no challenge whatsoever after you leveled up your artifacts.  I mean the fact that I could clear some mythics without needing a healer as a pally tank says a lot about how bad things had gotten.  I have played the new stuff and it is refreshing to need crowd control, healers, real tanks that keep aggro again, those were the things legion pretty much wiped out.  In legion it was just group everything up and AoE it down.  To me it felt like Legion was geared toward solo players the most, in how overpowered everyone was.

Wasn't that the exact same thing being said about Wrath to cataclysm?

Yep. Funny thing is that we now have content that scales and yet people still bitch about it being too easy. If it's too easy, clear higher M+

Octagon7711

MMO's I really like, I end up leveling several classes precisely for this reason.  When the nerf bat swings I can just login on a stronger character.  It's pretty much always been this way in these sorts of games.  Devs have a terrible time with balance issues so they routinely buff and nerf through the classes or nerf and slowly buff them back up as it gives them something to report on as progress.

k61977

simsalabim77 said:

Derros said:

k61977 said:

They are doing the same thing they have done with every xpac, this isn't anything new.  With that said legion wasn't really fun, there was no challenge whatsoever after you leveled up your artifacts.  I mean the fact that I could clear some mythics without needing a healer as a pally tank says a lot about how bad things had gotten.  I have played the new stuff and it is refreshing to need crowd control, healers, real tanks that keep aggro again, those were the things legion pretty much wiped out.  In legion it was just group everything up and AoE it down.  To me it felt like Legion was geared toward solo players the most, in how overpowered everyone was.

Wasn't that the exact same thing being said about Wrath to cataclysm?

Yep. Funny thing is that we now have content that scales and yet people still bitch about it being too easy. If it's too easy, clear higher M+

The point is you shouldn't even have to run mythics to find something challenging.  Your normal or heroics instances should actually have some challenge to them.  If you can steam roll everything in the game except for the very highest thing in the game then it is to easy.  Even just world quest should have just a little bit of challenge so you are not bored off you ass.

Viper482

Lord.Bachus said:

there is such a thing as ballance
but for bfa seems blizzard decided that the gane was to much fun in legion

I stopped here and spit my drink all over my keyboard laughing.

Roguewiz

Blizzard has no choice.  They've designed themselves into a corner.  WOW will continue to get dumber (easier) and will eventually be your standard action MMO with 5 abilities to hit, with 2 of those abilities being a movement and a dodge.

The less options you give players, the easier it is to balance.  Especially considering they are adding a 1v1 Arena/Guild thing...

Sephiroso

k61977 said:

simsalabim77 said:

Derros said:

k61977 said:

They are doing the same thing they have done with every xpac, this isn't anything new.  With that said legion wasn't really fun, there was no challenge whatsoever after you leveled up your artifacts.  I mean the fact that I could clear some mythics without needing a healer as a pally tank says a lot about how bad things had gotten.  I have played the new stuff and it is refreshing to need crowd control, healers, real tanks that keep aggro again, those were the things legion pretty much wiped out.  In legion it was just group everything up and AoE it down.  To me it felt like Legion was geared toward solo players the most, in how overpowered everyone was.

Wasn't that the exact same thing being said about Wrath to cataclysm?

Yep. Funny thing is that we now have content that scales and yet people still bitch about it being too easy. If it's too easy, clear higher M+

The point is you shouldn't even have to run mythics to find something challenging.  Your normal or heroics instances should actually have some challenge to them.  If you can steam roll everything in the game except for the very highest thing in the game then it is to easy.  Even just world quest should have just a little bit of challenge so you are not bored off you ass.

The funny thing is your logic. You're literally saying "You shouldn't even have to run "hard mode" to find something "hard". That's so laughable. Use your brain and realize the game has difficulty levels in the form of the different forms of content. Dungeons-Heroic dungeons-Mythic dungeons-Mythic+1-3 are Easy to Normal. Mythic+3-Mythic+12 is Normal to Difficult. Mythic +12-Mythic+15 is Hard. Higher than starts getting into very hard territory. The scale isn't exact, but you get the idea.

To complain that the "easy" content should be "hard" when they have clear distinctions between what's easy and whats hard and you can easily only run the hard content if thats what you want or only run the easy content if thats what you want is fucking batshit crazy.

grndzro

Derros said:

k61977 said:

They are doing the same thing they have done with every xpac, this isn't anything new.  With that said legion wasn't really fun, there was no challenge whatsoever after you leveled up your artifacts.  I mean the fact that I could clear some mythics without needing a healer as a pally tank says a lot about how bad things had gotten.  I have played the new stuff and it is refreshing to need crowd control, healers, real tanks that keep aggro again, those were the things legion pretty much wiped out.  In legion it was just group everything up and AoE it down.  To me it felt like Legion was geared toward solo players the most, in how overpowered everyone was.

Wasn't that the exact same thing being said about Wrath to cataclysm?

God that messed me up. Every one of my mains was reduced to garbage. My Frost tank, Spirit priest, Melee hunter...Blizz never should have dropped the old complex system of character building.

Albatroes

I wouldn't go as far as to say you get used to it so much as you end up changing your "main" over a period of time. I was BM/survival hunter until legion all way sense cata simply because they play like garbage (survival looks ok....still isn't going to be as good as old survival, and bm will continue to play like garbage compared to wod and previous expansions). That said, I ended up switching to warlock which was boring as hell in legion but it was effective. Demo seems to be more "fun" in bfa but demo hasn't really been "good" in any expansion since maybe cata?

k61977

Sephiroso said:

k61977 said:

simsalabim77 said:

Derros said:

k61977 said:

They are doing the same thing they have done with every xpac, this isn't anything new.  With that said legion wasn't really fun, there was no challenge whatsoever after you leveled up your artifacts.  I mean the fact that I could clear some mythics without needing a healer as a pally tank says a lot about how bad things had gotten.  I have played the new stuff and it is refreshing to need crowd control, healers, real tanks that keep aggro again, those were the things legion pretty much wiped out.  In legion it was just group everything up and AoE it down.  To me it felt like Legion was geared toward solo players the most, in how overpowered everyone was.

Wasn't that the exact same thing being said about Wrath to cataclysm?

Yep. Funny thing is that we now have content that scales and yet people still bitch about it being too easy. If it's too easy, clear higher M+

The point is you shouldn't even have to run mythics to find something challenging.  Your normal or heroics instances should actually have some challenge to them.  If you can steam roll everything in the game except for the very highest thing in the game then it is to easy.  Even just world quest should have just a little bit of challenge so you are not bored off you ass.

The funny thing is your logic. You're literally saying "You shouldn't even have to run "hard mode" to find something "hard". That's so laughable. Use your brain and realize the game has difficulty levels in the form of the different forms of content. Dungeons-Heroic dungeons-Mythic dungeons-Mythic+1-3 are Easy to Normal. Mythic+3-Mythic+12 is Normal to Difficult. Mythic +12-Mythic+15 is Hard. Higher than starts getting into very hard territory. The scale isn't exact, but you get the idea.

To complain that the "easy" content should be "hard" when they have clear distinctions between what's easy and whats hard and you can easily only run the hard content if thats what you want or only run the easy content if thats what you want is fucking batshit crazy.

I am literally saying you shouldn't even have to run instances to find some challenge in the game.  There is nothing wrong with having difficult scales but when even the higher tiers are a joke that says a lot.  Guess you missed the point of being able to practically solo mythics basically.  When they removed things like needing to CC mobs or you die the game became a cake walk.  I want you to go back to vanilla and just run through the entire instance to a boss without killing the trash mobs.  Bet you don't make it past 2 or 3 groups before you die.  That is the issue.  Even the basic difficulties should provide a little bit of a challenge.  If I can run in, at level, grab the entire instance almost to the boss and AoE it down then it is to easy.  That is the point we are at now.  And I for one am glad as hell they are trying to go back to something that makes people slow down and think about things a little before running in with the AoE mentality.   

Amathe

Three constants:

Death
Taxes
WoW Nerfs

Sephiroso

k61977 said:

Sephiroso said:

k61977 said:

simsalabim77 said:

Derros said:

k61977 said:

They are doing the same thing they have done with every xpac, this isn't anything new.  With that said legion wasn't really fun, there was no challenge whatsoever after you leveled up your artifacts.  I mean the fact that I could clear some mythics without needing a healer as a pally tank says a lot about how bad things had gotten.  I have played the new stuff and it is refreshing to need crowd control, healers, real tanks that keep aggro again, those were the things legion pretty much wiped out.  In legion it was just group everything up and AoE it down.  To me it felt like Legion was geared toward solo players the most, in how overpowered everyone was.

Wasn't that the exact same thing being said about Wrath to cataclysm?

Yep. Funny thing is that we now have content that scales and yet people still bitch about it being too easy. If it's too easy, clear higher M+

The point is you shouldn't even have to run mythics to find something challenging.  Your normal or heroics instances should actually have some challenge to them.  If you can steam roll everything in the game except for the very highest thing in the game then it is to easy.  Even just world quest should have just a little bit of challenge so you are not bored off you ass.

The funny thing is your logic. You're literally saying "You shouldn't even have to run "hard mode" to find something "hard". That's so laughable. Use your brain and realize the game has difficulty levels in the form of the different forms of content. Dungeons-Heroic dungeons-Mythic dungeons-Mythic+1-3 are Easy to Normal. Mythic+3-Mythic+12 is Normal to Difficult. Mythic +12-Mythic+15 is Hard. Higher than starts getting into very hard territory. The scale isn't exact, but you get the idea.

To complain that the "easy" content should be "hard" when they have clear distinctions between what's easy and whats hard and you can easily only run the hard content if thats what you want or only run the easy content if thats what you want is fucking batshit crazy.

I am literally saying you shouldn't even have to run instances to find some challenge in the game.  There is nothing wrong with having difficult scales but when even the higher tiers are a joke that says a lot.  Guess you missed the point of being able to practically solo mythics basically.  When they removed things like needing to CC mobs or you die the game became a cake walk.  I want you to go back to vanilla and just run through the entire instance to a boss without killing the trash mobs.  Bet you don't make it past 2 or 3 groups before you die.  That is the issue.  Even the basic difficulties should provide a little bit of a challenge.  If I can run in, at level, grab the entire instance almost to the boss and AoE it down then it is to easy.  That is the point we are at now.  And I for one am glad as hell they are trying to go back to something that makes people slow down and think about things a little before running in with the AoE mentality.   

"I shouldn't have to be on the highway to drive 65mph+" I should be able to do it in school zones. Fuck the kids. I want it my way.

Vanilla wasn't hard. It was tedious. Something a lot of people get confused. You know those 40 man raids? You only needed 15 or so people to actually beat most of those raids, the rest were simply bodies that could do little more than auto attack and you would have been fine.

The later ones were also tuned so as to be as close to unbeatable as possible, and in some cases actually impossible to beat(c'thun for the longest time and naxx) all for the sake of extending content life.

Tediousness and difficulty are not the same. I've done UBRS when it was a 15man dungeon and it was not hard, just tedious. I've done MC/BWL/ZG/AQ20 and 40 all in vanilla. They're fucking cake walks compared to mythic raids nowadays.

Seriously just compare mechanics from those fights to how mechanics have evolved nowadays. Sure, tanks don't have to try to hold threat, but guess what, if you're doing current content with any actual difficulty, you have to know when to use your active mitigation as a tank or you're just doing to die. The meta shifted from tanks having to properly manage their aggro to properly managing their active mitigation. Cry a fucking river or get over it.

TheScavenger

Actually, they buff/nerf depending on what THEY want people to play



Back in 6.2 they PURPOSELY made demonology warlock a shit spec (watch the video if don't believe me) because they didn't want people playing it

If I didn't link the video, it sounds so insane to make a class/spec purposely bad when its an actual spec to choose in the game...that you probably wouldn't believe me lol

Phry

TheScavenger said:

Actually, they buff/nerf depending on what THEY want people to play



Back in 6.2 they PURPOSELY made demonology warlock a shit spec (watch the video if don't believe me) because they didn't want people playing it

If I didn't link the video, it sounds so insane to make a class/spec purposely bad when its an actual spec to choose in the game...that you probably wouldn't believe me lol

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Legion was developed with a deep hate of Hunters, totally wrecked as a class, but not the only one even so, i was kind of hoping that BfA would be a return to form. So now i am waiting for the fabled vanilla server 

Albatroes

Phry said:

TheScavenger said:

Actually, they buff/nerf depending on what THEY want people to play



Back in 6.2 they PURPOSELY made demonology warlock a shit spec (watch the video if don't believe me) because they didn't want people playing it

If I didn't link the video, it sounds so insane to make a class/spec purposely bad when its an actual spec to choose in the game...that you probably wouldn't believe me lol

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Legion was developed with a deep hate of Hunters, totally wrecked as a class, but not the only one even so, i was kind of hoping that BfA would be a return to form. So now i am waiting for the fabled vanilla server 

Honestly, I agree, or at least with some favortism for marksman in mind. If you look through past raiding history, all 3 specs with the same gear, BM would be top in most scenarios with Survival always being second or first in those that BM couldnt. MM was really always last unless in a very special circumstance. In legion they were top mainly because BM had most of their stuff stripped or nerfed and survival was completely reworked. Now in bfa, marksman is going to play almost exactly like how old survival used to (if you look at the talents that were added) and BM is still gonna be eh.

Eronakis

btdt said:

If the game played the same from expansion to expansion, you wouldn't play the game anymore.  This is Blizzards way of changing things up.  The only thing that remains consistent is the subscription fee.

A solid foundation to game design, wouldn't require of changing the meta of every class/spec every single expansion. It's a bad gimmick and excuse to keep on playing. 

Expansions are meant to add more layers on to your class without devaluing your class role, gameplay and play style. 

Blizzard does this because at the very core of their class design, is fundamentally broken. 

"If it's not broke, don't fix it". 

Class design has always been bad in WoW, it's perpetually getting worse every expansion. Last time classes felt distinct and were competitive was in MoP. 

Eronakis

TheScavenger said:

Actually, they buff/nerf depending on what THEY want people to play



Back in 6.2 they PURPOSELY made demonology warlock a shit spec (watch the video if don't believe me) because they didn't want people playing it

If I didn't link the video, it sounds so insane to make a class/spec purposely bad when its an actual spec to choose in the game...that you probably wouldn't believe me lol

This right here is my proof that Blizzard wants certain players to play certain classes/specs. Which is totally irresponsible game design. I have been saying this for years, the spec system wow has with their classes has always been an illusion of choice. I was sort of hoping that Blizzards class designers were incompetent. 

FrodoFragins

TheScavenger said:

Actually, they buff/nerf depending on what THEY want people to play



Back in 6.2 they PURPOSELY made demonology warlock a shit spec (watch the video if don't believe me) because they didn't want people playing it

If I didn't link the video, it sounds so insane to make a class/spec purposely bad when its an actual spec to choose in the game...that you probably wouldn't believe me lol

That's pretty interesting and at least he is being candid.  It doesn't sound like they were OP, which means they could have improved the other specs instead.

I personally don't have an issue with more skill intensive specs having a slightly higher ceiling.  Slightly being the key word.  If the ceiling is only slightly higher but the microing required is much higher, that's more than enough to get players to choose the spec they prefer.

Octagon7711

They really should just work on class balance, adding new classes, and just keep adding new zones and stories.  Nerfing a class because it's too popular seems counter-productive in a game.