2. No it's not pledging. Pledging exists only on crowdfunding platforms. You pledge to give your money if the pledges of enough people reach or surpass a target. When you pay for things through these stores there is none of that, ergo it is a purchase / pre-order.
The article that @Slapshot1188 liked to make his point, does talk numbers. Something I would like to bring to everyone's attention.
The Crowedfund was 2.2 million, which they expected to make the game with, I mean like, they totally thought that was going to be enough. When it wasn't.. Mark J, put 2 million of his own money into the company. Ok process that, he already had in liquid funds what he was asking for from the Kickstarter. So, legit, since he thought he could do it with the 2.2 million, he walked into the project believing he could have fully self funded the whole thing, and was able to talk to a backer (now behind schedule with a game 4.5 million in debt), and get 7.5 million. Which means, he could have secured that backer long before that point, and with zero need to ever go the crowed funding route.
In shot, @Slapshot1188 linked an article that proved me irrevocably right, in some vain attempt to prove me wrong, and claimed I was wrong all the while doing so.
Thanks man. Always fun talking with you.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think that when people pledge they should take heed of what Kickstarter tells them, which is: 'Kickstarter is not a store'. You're paying to support a project, and getting stuff is only a side effect of that. You run a risk of losing your money because there's no guarantee that the product will be finished, end up as you think it should end up, or be delivered on time. If you don't like risk, don't back, or spend less on backing.
The point is that if done correctly... even with massive delays... you can have a very low refund rate. It can actually be a POSITIVE.
Laughable.
This is like saying "If done correctly an MMO should have 12 million subs, look at WoW"
Yes, CU offers refunds, 3.8% is what they have paid back for now, as others have said, they have other more invested backers and they have a lot of personal funds to make this game happen, in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game, they simply opted to go in that direction for their own reasons.
This does not apply to every situation, and to think it does is just being downright disingenuous.
Perhaps you can enlighten us about the financial history of the game which proves your claims that they never had to crowdfund.
I'll wait for your detailed answer. But doubt I will get one since it's made up like usual.
If they could offer a no questions asked refund from the start, they legally had to honor a 100% refund policy at any time, as such, by law they could not obtain more money from their investors then they could pay back.
I'll let you process that for the nano second you will give it, before you reject it and fuss and fume about how your feels say I am wrong.
The point is that if done correctly... even with massive delays... you can have a very low refund rate. It can actually be a POSITIVE.
Laughable.
This is like saying "If done correctly an MMO should have 12 million subs, look at WoW"
Yes, CU offers refunds, 3.8% is what they have paid back for now, as others have said, they have other more invested backers and they have a lot of personal funds to make this game happen, in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game, they simply opted to go in that direction for their own reasons.
This does not apply to every situation, and to think it does is just being downright disingenuous.
Maybe the problem there is more there's people with harebrained ideas (along with harebrained plans for bringing those ideas into fruition) trying to get it completely funded through crowdfunding, instead of the issue of refunds.
Not every harebrained idea needs to be given the chance. Publishers know this, gamers don't, apparently.
Yup.
But let me ask you a question.
Is the problem that "games don't know this" or is the problem that the MMO market has become so stagnant that even tho a majority of the investors know this a foolish pipe dream, they are willing toss money at these harebrained idea in hopes to breath new life into this genre of gaming, or at the very least get big money investors to realize they want something more then a WoW clone, and maybe have adept studios pursue one of these ideas.. even of the Kickstarter fails, it could still have a ripple effect.. and that was a horse they felt worth betting on.
That is the desperation that prevents gamers from looking at it objectively. Emotionality compromises any wisdom of a collective decision. That's the reason they can't spot an obvious lie (CoE timeline), and that is why they will make excuses until they're red in the face when reality hits them in the face like a Mike Tyson hook.
Gamers should've been extremely picky about the game they want to support, because spreading their resources thin over numerous titles increases the chances all of them will fail to deliver, but people aren't intelligent when a tribal mentality kicks in or when they hear double speak that allows their imaginations to run wild. That's not lost on the project creators.
Is the policy that good if they cancel it in beta stages? They've said they don't want a bunch of tourists wanting to get a glimpse of the game and then refunding, but you'd think the same rule of "if it's good enough then people won't refund" would apply here too. All that goodness of the refund policy doesn't mean much to me if it's removed when everyone can finally get a look. Oops, it's shit, sorry no refund now.
It's a good policy up until it's canceled due to inconvenience of people refunding. Is that any different than the projects that don't refund at all? A little, but not where it matters most.
I really do not see a solution that works well for both the customer and what effectively is a small start up business. This issue is inherent in crowd funding, unless you also get investment which swamps the money from the CF. Then you can display your largesse, otherwise you really, really need that money to keep going.
The point is that if done correctly... even with massive delays... you can have a very low refund rate. It can actually be a POSITIVE.
Laughable.
This is like saying "If done correctly an MMO should have 12 million subs, look at WoW"
Yes, CU offers refunds, 3.8% is what they have paid back for now, as others have said, they have other more invested backers and they have a lot of personal funds to make this game happen, in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game, they simply opted to go in that direction for their own reasons.
This does not apply to every situation, and to think it does is just being downright disingenuous.
Perhaps you can enlighten us about the financial history of the game which proves your claims that they never had to crowdfund.
I'll wait for your detailed answer. But doubt I will get one since it's made up like usual.
If they could offer a no questions asked refund from the start, they legally had to honor a 100% refund policy at any time, as such, by law they could not obtain more money from their investors then they could pay back.
I'll let you process that for the nano second you will give it, before you reject it and fuss and fume about how your feels say I am wrong.
The point is that if done correctly... even with massive delays... you can have a very low refund rate. It can actually be a POSITIVE.
Laughable.
This is like saying "If done correctly an MMO should have 12 million subs, look at WoW"
Yes, CU offers refunds, 3.8% is what they have paid back for now, as others have said, they have other more invested backers and they have a lot of personal funds to make this game happen, in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game, they simply opted to go in that direction for their own reasons.
This does not apply to every situation, and to think it does is just being downright disingenuous.
Maybe the problem there is more there's people with harebrained ideas (along with harebrained plans for bringing those ideas into fruition) trying to get it completely funded through crowdfunding, instead of the issue of refunds.
Not every harebrained idea needs to be given the chance. Publishers know this, gamers don't, apparently.
Yup.
But let me ask you a question.
Is the problem that "games don't know this" or is the problem that the MMO market has become so stagnant that even tho a majority of the investors know this a foolish pipe dream, they are willing toss money at these harebrained idea in hopes to breath new life into this genre of gaming, or at the very least get big money investors to realize they want something more then a WoW clone, and maybe have adept studios pursue one of these ideas.. even of the Kickstarter fails, it could still have a ripple effect.. and that was a horse they felt worth betting on.
That is the desperation that prevents gamers from looking at it objectively. Emotionality compromises any wisdom of a collective decision. That's the reason they can't spot an obvious lie (CoE timeline), and that is why they will make excuses until they're red in the face when reality hits them in the face like a Mike Tyson hook.
Gamers should've been extremely picky about the game they want to support, because spreading their resources thin over numerous titles increases the chances all of them will fail to deliver, but people aren't intelligent when a tribal mentality kicks in or when they hear double speak that allows their imaginations to run wild. That's not lost on the project creators.
Their desperation does not serve them well.
Without realizing it at the time, I think this has been my problem. I want so much to play a good MMORPG again I crowdfunded anything that simply looked okay, at the off chance it turns out to be great.
The point is that if done correctly... even with massive delays... you can have a very low refund rate. It can actually be a POSITIVE.
Laughable.
This is like saying "If done correctly an MMO should have 12 million subs, look at WoW"
Yes, CU offers refunds, 3.8% is what they have paid back for now, as others have said, they have other more invested backers and they have a lot of personal funds to make this game happen, in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game, they simply opted to go in that direction for their own reasons.
This does not apply to every situation, and to think it does is just being downright disingenuous.
Perhaps you can enlighten us about the financial history of the game which proves your claims that they never had to crowdfund.
I'll wait for your detailed answer. But doubt I will get one since it's made up like usual.
If they could offer a no questions asked refund from the start, they legally had to honor a 100% refund policy at any time, as such, by law they could not obtain more money from their investors then they could pay back.
I'll let you process that for the nano second you will give it, before you reject it and fuss and fume about how your feels say I am wrong.
The point is that if done correctly... even with massive delays... you can have a very low refund rate. It can actually be a POSITIVE.
Laughable.
This is like saying "If done correctly an MMO should have 12 million subs, look at WoW"
Yes, CU offers refunds, 3.8% is what they have paid back for now, as others have said, they have other more invested backers and they have a lot of personal funds to make this game happen, in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game, they simply opted to go in that direction for their own reasons.
This does not apply to every situation, and to think it does is just being downright disingenuous.
Maybe the problem there is more there's people with harebrained ideas (along with harebrained plans for bringing those ideas into fruition) trying to get it completely funded through crowdfunding, instead of the issue of refunds.
Not every harebrained idea needs to be given the chance. Publishers know this, gamers don't, apparently.
Yup.
But let me ask you a question.
Is the problem that "games don't know this" or is the problem that the MMO market has become so stagnant that even tho a majority of the investors know this a foolish pipe dream, they are willing toss money at these harebrained idea in hopes to breath new life into this genre of gaming, or at the very least get big money investors to realize they want something more then a WoW clone, and maybe have adept studios pursue one of these ideas.. even of the Kickstarter fails, it could still have a ripple effect.. and that was a horse they felt worth betting on.
That is the desperation that prevents gamers from looking at it objectively. Emotionality compromises any wisdom of a collective decision. That's the reason they can't spot an obvious lie (CoE timeline), and that is why they will make excuses until they're red in the face when reality hits them in the face like a Mike Tyson hook.
Gamers should've been extremely picky about the game they want to support, because spreading their resources thin over numerous titles increases the chances all of them will fail to deliver, but people aren't intelligent when a tribal mentality kicks in or when they hear double speak that allows their imaginations to run wild. That's not lost on the project creators.
Their desperation does not serve them well.
Without realizing it at the time, I think this has been my problem. I want so much to play a good MMORPG again I crowdfunded anything that simply looked okay, at the off chance it turns out to be great.
Hooe springs eternal. With any luck one or two will turn out to be games you will enjoy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Crowdfunded games should not offer a refund. You are not buying a product, you are investing or donating. Even if this fact is very much obscured by all the future reward tiers which makes you think you are buying something. If you can't accept that your donation/investment can be wasted, then you should not crowdfund.
Crowdfunded games should not offer a refund. You are not buying a product, you are investing or donating. Even if this fact is very much obscured by all the future reward tiers which makes you think you are buying something. If you can't accept that your donation/investment can be wasted, then you should not crowdfund.
I don't think the guise of "crowdfunding" should let companies off the hook completely, especially when it comes to dishonesty / fraud.
They should be held accountable to their KS promises. There's a big difference between a company going to KS and saying,
"we make no guarantees and launch will be once the game is done, even if it takes us 10+ years."
And a different company saying,
"we are planning to launch on xx/xx/xx date. It's not too ambitious of a time line, we have secret ways to complete on schedule you don't know about. Missing our launch date should be the least of your concerns, it certainly is ours."
2: it's still the crowed funding backers, they are not selling store items or anything, it's purely a pledge, so it still falls under the crowed funded umbrella, even if not directly though Kickstarter, it's the same type of funding. You could split hairs about this, but it just make you look petty (can't wait to have 10 pages of this discussion with you)
3: You're flat out wrong.
4: Legalities are not Feels. Even if you really wish they were, They would legally need to be able to repay every cent they received to offer a full return policy.
So.. yah.. you got me on the Mike..
Kudos and butt pats all around.. you won 1 of 4.
You're getting better!
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
1. His name is MARK JACOBS
2. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." This is demonstrably wrong and easily disproven. Are you attempting to say that any company that sells from a store on its webpage is part of Kickstarter? You even capitalized Kickstarter. Kickstarter ended in 2013.
3. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." Again. Demonstrably false. Everyone understands the difference between "Once it goes to beta" which infers that as soon as Beta starts the refunds end and the actual policy stated which says " This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first." As for your earlier silly statement. Mark Jacobs has said on this very site (and many others.. including the official forums) that he will give 30 days notice prior to ending the refunds and yes... that COULD be prior to open beta. Or not. Either way. It's not "Once it goes to beta" which is 2 days from now.
4. I don't think you understand. You made a wild claim that "in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game" and gave zero backup to that statement. Because Mark put in 2 million of his own money does not mean that they didn't need the first 2 million. 2 million was obviously his limit because he brought in investors once they ran out of money (which is end of 2017/beginning 2018). But your "feels" tell you differently. Great! If it's not your "feels" show actual evidence. Show the money they had in reserves. Explain why they didn't have to Crowdfund. If you think there is some legal requirement that says you have to have funds in reserve equal to any and all potential refund claims please show that exists.
If you would stick to factual statements or better yet, could actually link to some kind of proof it would be much more productive. Those quotes above in italics are actually your words.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The point is that if done correctly... even with massive delays... you can have a very low refund rate. It can actually be a POSITIVE.
Laughable.
This is like saying "If done correctly an MMO should have 12 million subs, look at WoW"
Yes, CU offers refunds, 3.8% is what they have paid back for now, as others have said, they have other more invested backers and they have a lot of personal funds to make this game happen, in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game, they simply opted to go in that direction for their own reasons.
This does not apply to every situation, and to think it does is just being downright disingenuous.
Perhaps you can enlighten us about the financial history of the game which proves your claims that they never had to crowdfund.
I'll wait for your detailed answer. But doubt I will get one since it's made up like usual.
If they could offer a no questions asked refund from the start, they legally had to honor a 100% refund policy at any time, as such, by law they could not obtain more money from their investors then they could pay back.
I'll let you process that for the nano second you will give it, before you reject it and fuss and fume about how your feels say I am wrong.
The point is that if done correctly... even with massive delays... you can have a very low refund rate. It can actually be a POSITIVE.
Laughable.
This is like saying "If done correctly an MMO should have 12 million subs, look at WoW"
Yes, CU offers refunds, 3.8% is what they have paid back for now, as others have said, they have other more invested backers and they have a lot of personal funds to make this game happen, in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game, they simply opted to go in that direction for their own reasons.
This does not apply to every situation, and to think it does is just being downright disingenuous.
Maybe the problem there is more there's people with harebrained ideas (along with harebrained plans for bringing those ideas into fruition) trying to get it completely funded through crowdfunding, instead of the issue of refunds.
Not every harebrained idea needs to be given the chance. Publishers know this, gamers don't, apparently.
Yup.
But let me ask you a question.
Is the problem that "games don't know this" or is the problem that the MMO market has become so stagnant that even tho a majority of the investors know this a foolish pipe dream, they are willing toss money at these harebrained idea in hopes to breath new life into this genre of gaming, or at the very least get big money investors to realize they want something more then a WoW clone, and maybe have adept studios pursue one of these ideas.. even of the Kickstarter fails, it could still have a ripple effect.. and that was a horse they felt worth betting on.
That is the desperation that prevents gamers from looking at it objectively. Emotionality compromises any wisdom of a collective decision. That's the reason they can't spot an obvious lie (CoE timeline), and that is why they will make excuses until they're red in the face when reality hits them in the face like a Mike Tyson hook.
Gamers should've been extremely picky about the game they want to support, because spreading their resources thin over numerous titles increases the chances all of them will fail to deliver, but people aren't intelligent when a tribal mentality kicks in or when they hear double speak that allows their imaginations to run wild. That's not lost on the project creators.
Their desperation does not serve them well.
Yup. Agree on multiple points.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Crowdfunded games should not offer a refund. You are not buying a product, you are investing or donating. Even if this fact is very much obscured by all the future reward tiers which makes you think you are buying something. If you can't accept that your donation/investment can be wasted, then you should not crowdfund.
I don't think the guise of "crowdfunding" should let companies off the hook completely, especially when it comes to dishonesty / fraud.
They should be held accountable to their KS promises. There's a big difference between a company going to KS and saying,
"we make no guarantees and launch will be once the game is done, even if it takes us 10+ years."
And a different company saying,
"we are planning to launch on xx/xx/xx date. It's not too ambitious of a time line, we have secret ways to complete on schedule you don't know about. Missing our launch date should be the least of your concerns, it certainly is ours."
Nop I still disagree. You are thinking as a consumer, but crowdfunding is investment or donation.
Only when all funding on the project is spent, will you know if the project reached its goals. By that time the money is gone, spent on salaries and other expenses - It no longer exist and therefore can not be paid back. The refund some kickstarter companies offer is a promise they can't really follow up on, and instead they make a calculated risk (of breaking their word) - You can not get money out of a broke company.
And "the secret ways to complete on schedule" ... that is ... man do you believe politicians too ? NOTHING is certain, ESPECIALLY not game projects which are considered one of the highest risk investments you can make.
2: it's still the crowed funding backers, they are not selling store items or anything, it's purely a pledge, so it still falls under the crowed funded umbrella, even if not directly though Kickstarter, it's the same type of funding. You could split hairs about this, but it just make you look petty (can't wait to have 10 pages of this discussion with you)
3: You're flat out wrong.
4: Legalities are not Feels. Even if you really wish they were, They would legally need to be able to repay every cent they received to offer a full return policy.
So.. yah.. you got me on the Mike..
Kudos and butt pats all around.. you won 1 of 4.
You're getting better!
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
1. His name is MARK JACOBS
2. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." This is demonstrably wrong and easily disproven. Are you attempting to say that any company that sells from a store on its webpage is part of Kickstarter? You even capitalized Kickstarter. Kickstarter ended in 2013.
3. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." Again. Demonstrably false. Everyone understands the difference between "Once it goes to beta" which infers that as soon as Beta starts the refunds end and the actual policy stated which says " This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first." As for your earlier silly statement. Mark Jacobs has said on this very site (and many others.. including the official forums) that he will give 30 days notice prior to ending the refunds and yes... that COULD be prior to open beta. Or not. Either way. It's not "Once it goes to beta" which is 2 days from now.
4. I don't think you understand. You made a wild claim that "in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game" and gave zero backup to that statement. Because Mark put in 2 million of his own money does not mean that they didn't need the first 2 million. 2 million was obviously his limit because he brought in investors once they ran out of money (which is end of 2017/beginning 2018). But your "feels" tell you differently. Great! If it's not your "feels" show actual evidence. Show the money they had in reserves. Explain why they didn't have to Crowdfund. If you think there is some legal requirement that says you have to have funds in reserve equal to any and all potential refund claims please show that exists.
If you would stick to factual statements or better yet, could actually link to some kind of proof it would be much more productive. Those quotes above in italics are actually your words.
Keep trying old chum.. to coin a phrase.
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
2: it's still the crowed funding backers, they are not selling store items or anything, it's purely a pledge, so it still falls under the crowed funded umbrella, even if not directly though Kickstarter, it's the same type of funding. You could split hairs about this, but it just make you look petty (can't wait to have 10 pages of this discussion with you)
3: You're flat out wrong.
4: Legalities are not Feels. Even if you really wish they were, They would legally need to be able to repay every cent they received to offer a full return policy.
So.. yah.. you got me on the Mike..
Kudos and butt pats all around.. you won 1 of 4.
You're getting better!
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
1. His name is MARK JACOBS
2. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." This is demonstrably wrong and easily disproven. Are you attempting to say that any company that sells from a store on its webpage is part of Kickstarter? You even capitalized Kickstarter. Kickstarter ended in 2013.
3. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." Again. Demonstrably false. Everyone understands the difference between "Once it goes to beta" which infers that as soon as Beta starts the refunds end and the actual policy stated which says " This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first." As for your earlier silly statement. Mark Jacobs has said on this very site (and many others.. including the official forums) that he will give 30 days notice prior to ending the refunds and yes... that COULD be prior to open beta. Or not. Either way. It's not "Once it goes to beta" which is 2 days from now.
4. I don't think you understand. You made a wild claim that "in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game" and gave zero backup to that statement. Because Mark put in 2 million of his own money does not mean that they didn't need the first 2 million. 2 million was obviously his limit because he brought in investors once they ran out of money (which is end of 2017/beginning 2018). But your "feels" tell you differently. Great! If it's not your "feels" show actual evidence. Show the money they had in reserves. Explain why they didn't have to Crowdfund. If you think there is some legal requirement that says you have to have funds in reserve equal to any and all potential refund claims please show that exists.
If you would stick to factual statements or better yet, could actually link to some kind of proof it would be much more productive. Those quotes above in italics are actually your words.
Keep trying old chum.. to coin a phrase.
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
Too funny. Anyhow it’s black and white for all to see above
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Crowdfunded games should not offer a refund. You are not buying a product, you are investing or donating. Even if this fact is very much obscured by all the future reward tiers which makes you think you are buying something. If you can't accept that your donation/investment can be wasted, then you should not crowdfund.
I don't think the guise of "crowdfunding" should let companies off the hook completely, especially when it comes to dishonesty / fraud.
They should be held accountable to their KS promises. There's a big difference between a company going to KS and saying,
"we make no guarantees and launch will be once the game is done, even if it takes us 10+ years."
And a different company saying,
"we are planning to launch on xx/xx/xx date. It's not too ambitious of a time line, we have secret ways to complete on schedule you don't know about. Missing our launch date should be the least of your concerns, it certainly is ours."
I could actually be on board with the zero refund policy if they were held strictly to their timeline and literal feature list as it was described and detailed in the crowdfunding campaign. Since that will never happen, I would never be on board with no refunds like you say. That opens up the door to all sorts of abuse.
I’d sign on to that.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Is the problem that "games don't know this" or is the problem that the MMO market has become so stagnant that even tho a majority of the investors know this a foolish pipe dream, they are willing toss money at these harebrained idea in hopes to breath new life into this genre of gaming, or at the very least get big money investors to realize they want something more then a WoW clone, and maybe have adept studios pursue one of these ideas.. even of the Kickstarter fails, it could still have a ripple effect.. and that was a horse they felt worth betting on.
That is the desperation that prevents gamers from looking at it objectively. Emotionality compromises any wisdom of a collective decision. That's the reason they can't spot an obvious lie (CoE timeline), and that is why they will make excuses until they're red in the face when reality hits them in the face like a Mike Tyson hook.
Gamers should've been extremely picky about the game they want to support, because spreading their resources thin over numerous titles increases the chances all of them will fail to deliver, but people aren't intelligent when a tribal mentality kicks in or when they hear double speak that allows their imaginations to run wild. That's not lost on the project creators.
Their desperation does not serve them well.
Well desperation does not serve anyone well.
But, I guess the thing here is two fold.
1) That there is a desire to get away from stereotypical MMO's, a urge for something new, direction changing, something.. lets just say better.
Now if someone has the money to burn on Crowedfunding games, personally I think it's great they have that much disposable income. The thing here is that it was their choice to do this, no one forced them to take this risk. They very easily could have used that money into any existing title, had a guaranteed game to play. They chose not to do this.
Instead that opted to take a risk on a potential game, not a guaranteed game, but a potential game. But, I think the problem is many walked into ignoring that this was a risk, ignoring that this only a potential product not an actual one. No matter their feels on the issue, the reality is they were investing money into the chance for a game, with a chance for it be made by a set date. They were not in any way buying a game with a guaranteed production or outcome, they were taking a risk.. just like betting on a horse.
If they didn't realize this, That is entirely their own fault.
There is no shortage of other games, made and running right now, that would be glad to have their patronage, and they instead chose to put their money into a game that might never happen.
Overlooking that. I mean, after all people playing the victim when it was purely their own fault, is like.. every day.. every one.
But the real question is, is the developer the "bad guy" here, look at Panethon, they are still trying to make a game and crowedfund it, and they are still making progress towards their goal. Would it be wrong for someone to bet on their horse to finish the race, when the owner and jockey believe their horse will do it? Would the Developer be in the wrong, if at this point they simply realized this was not going to happen, closed their doors and said "Sorry We Tried"
That is really what is going on here, you have someone that is trying to make something, they asked for fiscal help to make it happen. Maybe they have what it takes to do it, maybe they don't, but, for all the major ones, it is apparent they believe they can do this, and just need the money to make it happen.
But, Sometimes losing an investor is has nothing to do with a risk, in some cases it is more to do with not wanting to compromise your product or profit margins, let me give you an example, Dee-Zee Invsi Truck rack, was featured on Shark Tank (Which is a series of 4 investors) when they asked if he would go overseas for production to reduce costs and increase profit margins, the owner said that he would not. At this point, he lost all 4 of the backers. Not because he didn't have a good product, but because he was adamant about it being American Made. Dee-Zee is still around, and while I doubt that many if any here use Truck Racks, it's worth the price tag.
As such, there are cases like that with MMO's that backers simply don't see the profit lines, and this comes from them being, hence the whole Loot Box Fiasco, that is going on where backers want them to ensure profit lines, and yet we see gamers hating them. Seems like a nice little trap there.
Anyway, I think too much blame is being placed on the Developer, because if they are legit trying to make a game, at least they are holding to their end of the deal, even if they fail or fall behind schedule. I mean, think about it, Kickstarter makes not promise for the product to get made, as such, if they took the money, ran with it as far as they could, or kept working till their supposed release date and then just closed doors, shut the company down, declared the product a fail, and said "Welp we tried" and walked away.
Would that have been what all these hecklers really wanted?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
2: it's still the crowed funding backers, they are not selling store items or anything, it's purely a pledge, so it still falls under the crowed funded umbrella, even if not directly though Kickstarter, it's the same type of funding. You could split hairs about this, but it just make you look petty (can't wait to have 10 pages of this discussion with you)
3: You're flat out wrong.
4: Legalities are not Feels. Even if you really wish they were, They would legally need to be able to repay every cent they received to offer a full return policy.
So.. yah.. you got me on the Mike..
Kudos and butt pats all around.. you won 1 of 4.
You're getting better!
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
1. His name is MARK JACOBS
2. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." This is demonstrably wrong and easily disproven. Are you attempting to say that any company that sells from a store on its webpage is part of Kickstarter? You even capitalized Kickstarter. Kickstarter ended in 2013.
3. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." Again. Demonstrably false. Everyone understands the difference between "Once it goes to beta" which infers that as soon as Beta starts the refunds end and the actual policy stated which says " This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first." As for your earlier silly statement. Mark Jacobs has said on this very site (and many others.. including the official forums) that he will give 30 days notice prior to ending the refunds and yes... that COULD be prior to open beta. Or not. Either way. It's not "Once it goes to beta" which is 2 days from now.
4. I don't think you understand. You made a wild claim that "in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game" and gave zero backup to that statement. Because Mark put in 2 million of his own money does not mean that they didn't need the first 2 million. 2 million was obviously his limit because he brought in investors once they ran out of money (which is end of 2017/beginning 2018). But your "feels" tell you differently. Great! If it's not your "feels" show actual evidence. Show the money they had in reserves. Explain why they didn't have to Crowdfund. If you think there is some legal requirement that says you have to have funds in reserve equal to any and all potential refund claims please show that exists.
If you would stick to factual statements or better yet, could actually link to some kind of proof it would be much more productive. Those quotes above in italics are actually your words.
Keep trying old chum.. to coin a phrase.
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
Too funny. Anyhow it’s black and white for all to see above
Yup.
2) Printed Right in the Store.
This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first
3) Printed right in the Store: (notice: it says Donation, not purchase)
If you would like a refund, we will refund your donation through the digital means (PayPal, Stripe, etc.) of our choice. We will subtract any fees charged by the payment gateway (PayPal or Stripe) for the transaction and nothing more.
4) From the Site you Linked: Mark had 2 million of his own money sitting around to make the game (and no doubt more, because he also had to pay for his wife's cancer treatments, which, I feel bad for the guy, that really sucks), and had no issues securing 7.5 million loan with previous backers he worked with, black and white, he never needed to do a Kickstarter at all.
Let me know when you get tired of being wrong..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Crowdfunded games should not offer a refund. You are not buying a product, you are investing or donating. Even if this fact is very much obscured by all the future reward tiers which makes you think you are buying something. If you can't accept that your donation/investment can be wasted, then you should not crowdfund.
I don't think the guise of "crowdfunding" should let companies off the hook completely, especially when it comes to dishonesty / fraud.
They should be held accountable to their KS promises. There's a big difference between a company going to KS and saying,
"we make no guarantees and launch will be once the game is done, even if it takes us 10+ years."
And a different company saying,
"we are planning to launch on xx/xx/xx date. It's not too ambitious of a time line, we have secret ways to complete on schedule you don't know about. Missing our launch date should be the least of your concerns, it certainly is ours."
I could actually be on board with the zero refund policy if they were held strictly to their timeline and literal feature list as it was described and detailed in the crowdfunding campaign. Since that will never happen, I would never be on board with no refunds like you say. That opens up the door to all sorts of abuse.
What if they just tried their best, and when the deadline came up, if they didn't have the game made they shut down shop, closed the company down and liquidated the assets as opposed to making any continual efforts on the project?
Would that also work for you?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Crowdfunded games should not offer a refund. You are not buying a product, you are investing or donating. Even if this fact is very much obscured by all the future reward tiers which makes you think you are buying something. If you can't accept that your donation/investment can be wasted, then you should not crowdfund.
I don't think the guise of "crowdfunding" should let companies off the hook completely, especially when it comes to dishonesty / fraud.
They should be held accountable to their KS promises. There's a big difference between a company going to KS and saying,
"we make no guarantees and launch will be once the game is done, even if it takes us 10+ years."
And a different company saying,
"we are planning to launch on xx/xx/xx date. It's not too ambitious of a time line, we have secret ways to complete on schedule you don't know about. Missing our launch date should be the least of your concerns, it certainly is ours."
I could actually be on board with the zero refund policy if they were held strictly to their timeline and literal feature list as it was described and detailed in the crowdfunding campaign. Since that will never happen, I would never be on board with no refunds like you say. That opens up the door to all sorts of abuse.
What if they just tried their best, and when the deadline came up, if they didn't have the game made they shut down shop, closed the company down and liquidated the assets as opposed to making any continual efforts on the project?
Would that also work for you?
That might be an option. If they can't pull off the project then give the money back.
The thing is, they can't give the money back. If they legitimately needed the funds to make the game, then they already spent most if not all of it trying to actually make the game.
At best the company would declare bankruptcy, and whatever liquid assets they get from selling off the remains of the company could go back their creditors. But you need to grasp that most of the money in a game development is spent on payroll and thus gone.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
2: it's still the crowed funding backers, they are not selling store items or anything, it's purely a pledge, so it still falls under the crowed funded umbrella, even if not directly though Kickstarter, it's the same type of funding. You could split hairs about this, but it just make you look petty (can't wait to have 10 pages of this discussion with you)
3: You're flat out wrong.
4: Legalities are not Feels. Even if you really wish they were, They would legally need to be able to repay every cent they received to offer a full return policy.
So.. yah.. you got me on the Mike..
Kudos and butt pats all around.. you won 1 of 4.
You're getting better!
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
1. His name is MARK JACOBS
2. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." This is demonstrably wrong and easily disproven. Are you attempting to say that any company that sells from a store on its webpage is part of Kickstarter? You even capitalized Kickstarter. Kickstarter ended in 2013.
3. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." Again. Demonstrably false. Everyone understands the difference between "Once it goes to beta" which infers that as soon as Beta starts the refunds end and the actual policy stated which says " This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first." As for your earlier silly statement. Mark Jacobs has said on this very site (and many others.. including the official forums) that he will give 30 days notice prior to ending the refunds and yes... that COULD be prior to open beta. Or not. Either way. It's not "Once it goes to beta" which is 2 days from now.
4. I don't think you understand. You made a wild claim that "in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game" and gave zero backup to that statement. Because Mark put in 2 million of his own money does not mean that they didn't need the first 2 million. 2 million was obviously his limit because he brought in investors once they ran out of money (which is end of 2017/beginning 2018). But your "feels" tell you differently. Great! If it's not your "feels" show actual evidence. Show the money they had in reserves. Explain why they didn't have to Crowdfund. If you think there is some legal requirement that says you have to have funds in reserve equal to any and all potential refund claims please show that exists.
If you would stick to factual statements or better yet, could actually link to some kind of proof it would be much more productive. Those quotes above in italics are actually your words.
Keep trying old chum.. to coin a phrase.
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
Too funny. Anyhow it’s black and white for all to see above
Yup.
2) Printed Right in the Store.
This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first
3) Printed right in the Store: (notice: it says Donation, not purchase)
If you would like a refund, we will refund your donation through the digital means (PayPal, Stripe, etc.) of our choice. We will subtract any fees charged by the payment gateway (PayPal or Stripe) for the transaction and nothing more.
4) From the Site you Linked: Mark had 2 million of his own money sitting around to make the game (and no doubt more, because he also had to pay for his wife's cancer treatments, which, I feel bad for the guy, that really sucks), and had no issues securing 7.5 million loan with previous backers he worked with, black and white, he never needed to do a Kickstarter at all.
Let me know when you get tired of being wrong..
Do you honestly believe what you type? What are you even trying to argue? That Open Beta is the start of beta?! Beta starts in 2 days and refunds are still allowed. Case closed.
As for the second point, why does having 2M of his own cash mean he didn’t need to crowdfund? They burned 4.5M in cash and still had to go get more. How do you know he “had no issues” securing a 7.5 million loan? I have no idea how hard it was. Please share your inside info. And explain why you think that happening 5 years in means it would have happpened on day 1 with zero to show. Is it even a loan? I had not read that but rather they were new stakeholders in the company.
Everyone can can easily see that you made multiple false statements and IMHO did not fully understand the topic. It’s ok. In the future just try to distinguish between what you thought no and what’s a fact. It’s ok to state an opinion as such. It’s not ok to make up facts.
Anyhow. Back out of the rabbit hole. It’s a FACT that saying a crowdfunded game cannot offer refunds is a fallacy. That is the point of this thread. CU and it’s 3.8% refunds after 5 years proves this to be false. Does it apply to every company? No. Not all companies can likely manage through a refund policy but this has less to do with being crowdfunded and a whole lot to do with fear of customers losing confidence in the product. But to say crowdfunding is “the reason” they can’t offer refunds is now proven to be untrue.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I get the money has been spent. Yes, they'd have to be dissolved and their assets sold. I'm perfectly happy with that. If they can't do business properly they're done. And if they fail at a KS like they should be banned for life from that crowdfunding platform. They get one chance and if they fuck it up, they're done. If they can't handle that then they shouldn't be crowdfunding.
The industry can't handle soft and loose. They can't handle more chances. They need strict firm boundaries. An exception should be a miracle, not the norm. Crowdfunding should be for serious projects not to have a laugh with others money or as an excuse to circumvent accountability imposed by traditional funding.
Well stated.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first
3) Printed right in the Store: (notice: it says Donation, not purchase)
If you would like a refund, we will refund your donation through the digital means (PayPal, Stripe, etc.) of our choice. We will subtract any fees charged by the payment gateway (PayPal or Stripe) for the transaction and nothing more.
4) From the Site you Linked: Mark had 2 million of his own money sitting around to make the game (and no doubt more, because he also had to pay for his wife's cancer treatments, which, I feel bad for the guy, that really sucks), and had no issues securing 7.5 million loan with previous backers he worked with, black and white, he never needed to do a Kickstarter at all.
Let me know when you get tired of being wrong..
Do you honestly believe what you type? What are you even trying to argue? That Open Beta is the start of beta?! Beta starts in 2 days and refunds are still allowed. Case closed.
As for the second point, why does having 2M of his own cash mean he didn’t need to crowdfund? They burned 4.5M in cash and still had to go get more. How do you know he “had no issues” securing a 7.5 million loan? I have no idea how hard it was. Please share your inside info. And explain why you think that happening 5 years in means it would have happpened on day 1 with zero to show. Is it even a loan? I had not read that but rather they were new stakeholders in the company.
Everyone can can easily see that you made multiple false statements and IMHO did not fully understand the topic. It’s ok. In the future just try to distinguish between what you thought no and what’s a fact. It’s ok to state an opinion as such. It’s not ok to make up facts.
Anyhow. Back out of the rabbit hole. It’s a FACT that saying a crowdfunded game cannot offer refunds is a fallacy. That is the point of this thread. CU and it’s 3.8% refunds after 5 years proves this to be false. Does it apply to every company? No. Not all companies can likely manage through a refund policy but this has less to do with being crowdfunded and a whole lot to do with fear of customers losing confidence in the product. But to say crowdfunding is “the reason” they can’t offer refunds is now proven to be untrue.
Oh look.. in the face of facts Slapshot is now making up what people are saying to prove he is right..so much for that whole Truth Seeker thing.. eh what did you call it.. Hyperbolers or Humbuggers,,. or something.. anyway buddy, sorry if the facts don't agree with you.
Maybe you should try adulting up and dealing with being wrong, might be a good change of pace for this place.
Why it would be as rare as a game made on time and on budget.. LOL.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first
3) Printed right in the Store: (notice: it says Donation, not purchase)
If you would like a refund, we will refund your donation through the digital means (PayPal, Stripe, etc.) of our choice. We will subtract any fees charged by the payment gateway (PayPal or Stripe) for the transaction and nothing more.
4) From the Site you Linked: Mark had 2 million of his own money sitting around to make the game (and no doubt more, because he also had to pay for his wife's cancer treatments, which, I feel bad for the guy, that really sucks), and had no issues securing 7.5 million loan with previous backers he worked with, black and white, he never needed to do a Kickstarter at all.
Let me know when you get tired of being wrong..
Do you honestly believe what you type? What are you even trying to argue? That Open Beta is the start of beta?! Beta starts in 2 days and refunds are still allowed. Case closed.
As for the second point, why does having 2M of his own cash mean he didn’t need to crowdfund? They burned 4.5M in cash and still had to go get more. How do you know he “had no issues” securing a 7.5 million loan? I have no idea how hard it was. Please share your inside info. And explain why you think that happening 5 years in means it would have happpened on day 1 with zero to show. Is it even a loan? I had not read that but rather they were new stakeholders in the company.
Everyone can can easily see that you made multiple false statements and IMHO did not fully understand the topic. It’s ok. In the future just try to distinguish between what you thought no and what’s a fact. It’s ok to state an opinion as such. It’s not ok to make up facts.
Anyhow. Back out of the rabbit hole. It’s a FACT that saying a crowdfunded game cannot offer refunds is a fallacy. That is the point of this thread. CU and it’s 3.8% refunds after 5 years proves this to be false. Does it apply to every company? No. Not all companies can likely manage through a refund policy but this has less to do with being crowdfunded and a whole lot to do with fear of customers losing confidence in the product. But to say crowdfunding is “the reason” they can’t offer refunds is now proven to be untrue.
Oh look.. in the face of facts Slapshot is now making up what people are saying to prove he is right..so much for that whole Truth Seeker thing.. eh what did you call it.. Hyperbolers or Humbuggers,,. or something.. anyway buddy, sorry if the facts don't agree with you.
Maybe you should try adulting up and dealing with being wrong, might be a good change of pace for this place.
Why it would be as rare as a game made on time and on budget.. LOL.
This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first
3) Printed right in the Store: (notice: it says Donation, not purchase)
If you would like a refund, we will refund your donation through the digital means (PayPal, Stripe, etc.) of our choice. We will subtract any fees charged by the payment gateway (PayPal or Stripe) for the transaction and nothing more.
4) From the Site you Linked: Mark had 2 million of his own money sitting around to make the game (and no doubt more, because he also had to pay for his wife's cancer treatments, which, I feel bad for the guy, that really sucks), and had no issues securing 7.5 million loan with previous backers he worked with, black and white, he never needed to do a Kickstarter at all.
Let me know when you get tired of being wrong..
Do you honestly believe what you type? What are you even trying to argue? That Open Beta is the start of beta?! Beta starts in 2 days and refunds are still allowed. Case closed.
As for the second point, why does having 2M of his own cash mean he didn’t need to crowdfund? They burned 4.5M in cash and still had to go get more. How do you know he “had no issues” securing a 7.5 million loan? I have no idea how hard it was. Please share your inside info. And explain why you think that happening 5 years in means it would have happpened on day 1 with zero to show. Is it even a loan? I had not read that but rather they were new stakeholders in the company.
Everyone can can easily see that you made multiple false statements and IMHO did not fully understand the topic. It’s ok. In the future just try to distinguish between what you thought no and what’s a fact. It’s ok to state an opinion as such. It’s not ok to make up facts.
Anyhow. Back out of the rabbit hole. It’s a FACT that saying a crowdfunded game cannot offer refunds is a fallacy. That is the point of this thread. CU and it’s 3.8% refunds after 5 years proves this to be false. Does it apply to every company? No. Not all companies can likely manage through a refund policy but this has less to do with being crowdfunded and a whole lot to do with fear of customers losing confidence in the product. But to say crowdfunding is “the reason” they can’t offer refunds is now proven to be untrue.
Oh look.. in the face of facts Slapshot is now making up what people are saying to prove he is right..so much for that whole Truth Seeker thing.. eh what did you call it.. Hyperbolers or Humbuggers,,. or something.. anyway buddy, sorry if the facts don't agree with you.
Maybe you should try adulting up and dealing with being wrong, might be a good change of pace for this place.
Why it would be as rare as a game made on time and on budget.. LOL.
Why not link what I “made up”
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I get the money has been spent. Yes, they'd have to be dissolved and their assets sold. I'm perfectly happy with that. If they can't do business properly they're done. And if they fail at a KS like they should be banned for life from that crowdfunding platform. They get one chance and if they fuck it up, they're done. If they can't handle that then they shouldn't be crowdfunding.
The industry can't handle soft and loose. They can't handle more chances. They need strict firm boundaries. An exception should be a miracle, not the norm. Crowdfunding should be for serious projects not to have a laugh with others money or as an excuse to circumvent accountability imposed by traditional funding.
Would you like to be fired from your job and never be allowed to work again if you missed a deadline?
I mean, lets be real, most employers invest far more into each individual employee then anyone on these forums has put into a Kickstarter, so, would people like the same kind of expectations placed upon them as they feel justified to put upon others?
Should employees only get one chance to fail, then they are done in that profession forever?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Pledging exists only on crowdfunding platforms. You pledge to give your money if the pledges of enough people reach or surpass a target.
When you pay for things through these stores there is none of that, ergo it is a purchase / pre-order.
The article that @Slapshot1188 liked to make his point, does talk numbers. Something I would like to bring to everyone's attention.
The Crowedfund was 2.2 million, which they expected to make the game with, I mean like, they totally thought that was going to be enough. When it wasn't.. Mark J, put 2 million of his own money into the company. Ok process that, he already had in liquid funds what he was asking for from the Kickstarter. So, legit, since he thought he could do it with the 2.2 million, he walked into the project believing he could have fully self funded the whole thing, and was able to talk to a backer (now behind schedule with a game 4.5 million in debt), and get 7.5 million. Which means, he could have secured that backer long before that point, and with zero need to ever go the crowed funding route.
In shot, @Slapshot1188 linked an article that proved me irrevocably right, in some vain attempt to prove me wrong, and claimed I was wrong all the while doing so.
Thanks man. Always fun talking with you.
Gamers should've been extremely picky about the game they want to support, because spreading their resources thin over numerous titles increases the chances all of them will fail to deliver, but people aren't intelligent when a tribal mentality kicks in or when they hear double speak that allows their imaginations to run wild. That's not lost on the project creators.
Their desperation does not serve them well.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you can't accept that your donation/investment can be wasted, then you should not crowdfund.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
They should be held accountable to their KS promises. There's a big difference between a company going to KS and saying,
"we make no guarantees and launch will be once the game is done, even if it takes us 10+ years."
And a different company saying,
"we are planning to launch on xx/xx/xx date. It's not too ambitious of a time line, we have secret ways to complete on schedule you don't know about. Missing our launch date should be the least of your concerns, it certainly is ours."
1. His name is MARK JACOBS
2. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." This is demonstrably wrong and easily disproven. Are you attempting to say that any company that sells from a store on its webpage is part of Kickstarter? You even capitalized Kickstarter. Kickstarter ended in 2013.
3. You said: "Keep in mind, This is only for the Kickstarter, so once it goes beta, they got their game (What they funded) and their in-game rewards (which they were owed), as such they received all they paid for." Again. Demonstrably false. Everyone understands the difference between "Once it goes to beta" which infers that as soon as Beta starts the refunds end and the actual policy stated which says " This refund policy will remain in effect until the game has been made commercially available (such as Open Beta or sales via a third-party site such as Steam) or production is stopped on it, whichever comes first." As for your earlier silly statement. Mark Jacobs has said on this very site (and many others.. including the official forums) that he will give 30 days notice prior to ending the refunds and yes... that COULD be prior to open beta. Or not. Either way. It's not "Once it goes to beta" which is 2 days from now.
4. I don't think you understand. You made a wild claim that "in short, they don't nor have they ever needed to crowed fund this game" and gave zero backup to that statement. Because Mark put in 2 million of his own money does not mean that they didn't need the first 2 million. 2 million was obviously his limit because he brought in investors once they ran out of money (which is end of 2017/beginning 2018). But your "feels" tell you differently. Great! If it's not your "feels" show actual evidence. Show the money they had in reserves. Explain why they didn't have to Crowdfund. If you think there is some legal requirement that says you have to have funds in reserve equal to any and all potential refund claims please show that exists.
If you would stick to factual statements or better yet, could actually link to some kind of proof it would be much more productive. Those quotes above in italics are actually your words.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Only when all funding on the project is spent, will you know if the project reached its goals. By that time the money is gone, spent on salaries and other expenses - It no longer exist and therefore can not be paid back.
The refund some kickstarter companies offer is a promise they can't really follow up on, and instead they make a calculated risk (of breaking their word) - You can not get money out of a broke company.
And "the secret ways to complete on schedule" ... that is ... man do you believe politicians too ? NOTHING is certain, ESPECIALLY not game projects which are considered one of the highest risk investments you can make.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
You can post the same wrong info 100 times and it will still be wrong:
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But, I guess the thing here is two fold.
1) That there is a desire to get away from stereotypical MMO's, a urge for something new, direction changing, something.. lets just say better.
Now if someone has the money to burn on Crowedfunding games, personally I think it's great they have that much disposable income. The thing here is that it was their choice to do this, no one forced them to take this risk. They very easily could have used that money into any existing title, had a guaranteed game to play. They chose not to do this.
Instead that opted to take a risk on a potential game, not a guaranteed game, but a potential game. But, I think the problem is many walked into ignoring that this was a risk, ignoring that this only a potential product not an actual one. No matter their feels on the issue, the reality is they were investing money into the chance for a game, with a chance for it be made by a set date. They were not in any way buying a game with a guaranteed production or outcome, they were taking a risk.. just like betting on a horse.
If they didn't realize this, That is entirely their own fault.
There is no shortage of other games, made and running right now, that would be glad to have their patronage, and they instead chose to put their money into a game that might never happen.
Overlooking that. I mean, after all people playing the victim when it was purely their own fault, is like.. every day.. every one.
But the real question is, is the developer the "bad guy" here, look at Panethon, they are still trying to make a game and crowedfund it, and they are still making progress towards their goal. Would it be wrong for someone to bet on their horse to finish the race, when the owner and jockey believe their horse will do it? Would the Developer be in the wrong, if at this point they simply realized this was not going to happen, closed their doors and said "Sorry We Tried"
That is really what is going on here, you have someone that is trying to make something, they asked for fiscal help to make it happen. Maybe they have what it takes to do it, maybe they don't, but, for all the major ones, it is apparent they believe they can do this, and just need the money to make it happen.
But, Sometimes losing an investor is has nothing to do with a risk, in some cases it is more to do with not wanting to compromise your product or profit margins, let me give you an example, Dee-Zee Invsi Truck rack, was featured on Shark Tank (Which is a series of 4 investors) when they asked if he would go overseas for production to reduce costs and increase profit margins, the owner said that he would not. At this point, he lost all 4 of the backers. Not because he didn't have a good product, but because he was adamant about it being American Made. Dee-Zee is still around, and while I doubt that many if any here use Truck Racks, it's worth the price tag.
As such, there are cases like that with MMO's that backers simply don't see the profit lines, and this comes from them being, hence the whole Loot Box Fiasco, that is going on where backers want them to ensure profit lines, and yet we see gamers hating them. Seems like a nice little trap there.
Anyway, I think too much blame is being placed on the Developer, because if they are legit trying to make a game, at least they are holding to their end of the deal, even if they fail or fall behind schedule. I mean, think about it, Kickstarter makes not promise for the product to get made, as such, if they took the money, ran with it as far as they could, or kept working till their supposed release date and then just closed doors, shut the company down, declared the product a fail, and said "Welp we tried" and walked away.
Would that have been what all these hecklers really wanted?
2) Printed Right in the Store.
3) Printed right in the Store: (notice: it says Donation, not purchase)
4) From the Site you Linked: Mark had 2 million of his own money sitting around to make the game (and no doubt more, because he also had to pay for his wife's cancer treatments, which, I feel bad for the guy, that really sucks), and had no issues securing 7.5 million loan with previous backers he worked with, black and white, he never needed to do a Kickstarter at all.
Let me know when you get tired of being wrong..
What if they just tried their best, and when the deadline came up, if they didn't have the game made they shut down shop, closed the company down and liquidated the assets as opposed to making any continual efforts on the project?
Would that also work for you?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
At best the company would declare bankruptcy, and whatever liquid assets they get from selling off the remains of the company could go back their creditors. But you need to grasp that most of the money in a game development is spent on payroll and thus gone.
As for the second point, why does having 2M of his own cash mean he didn’t need to crowdfund? They burned 4.5M in cash and still had to go get more. How do you know he “had no issues” securing a 7.5 million loan? I have no idea how hard it was. Please share your inside info. And explain why you think that happening 5 years in means it would have happpened on day 1 with zero to show. Is it even a loan? I had not read that but rather they were new stakeholders in the company.
Everyone can can easily see that you made multiple false statements and IMHO did not fully understand the topic. It’s ok. In the future just try to distinguish between what you thought no and what’s a fact. It’s ok to state an opinion as such. It’s not ok to make up facts.
Anyhow. Back out of the rabbit hole. It’s a FACT that saying a crowdfunded game cannot offer refunds is a fallacy. That is the point of this thread. CU and it’s 3.8% refunds after 5 years proves this to be false. Does it apply to every company? No. Not all companies can likely manage through a refund policy but this has less to do with being crowdfunded and a whole lot to do with fear of customers losing confidence in the product. But to say crowdfunding is “the reason” they can’t offer refunds is now proven to be untrue.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maybe you should try adulting up and dealing with being wrong, might be a good change of pace for this place.
Why it would be as rare as a game made on time and on budget.. LOL.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I mean, lets be real, most employers invest far more into each individual employee then anyone on these forums has put into a Kickstarter, so, would people like the same kind of expectations placed upon them as they feel justified to put upon others?
Should employees only get one chance to fail, then they are done in that profession forever?