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Big Pledge Package = p2w?

2

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  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,071
    blamo2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    blamo2000 said:

    We'll have to agree to disagree on that last point.  
    No need, I proved my point, your agreement isn't necessary.

    B)
    I proved my point.

    If I was in trouble and sat down with a lawyer that told me he just sent 1k to someone he likes watching play video games online I would call him a fucking idiot and immediately walk out.  Even if it meant I had to represent myself.

    If he told me he spent 1k on crack I would trust him far more and probably stay.   I trust crackhead lawyers with my very freedom more than I trust the cognitive abilities of anyone who would send 1k to someone they watch play video games online.
    Umm, i would never trust a crackhead over someone who donates $1000. Some people have a lot of money and are veey generous. The crackhead is fucked up by a chemically induced rat race he/she cannot win. People throw their lives and others and commit crimes on drugs and to feed their habit. I've heard of doctors stealing their colleagues prescription pads to write themselves narcotics.

    Someone who donates to a streamer likely has a ton of money and is feeling generous. If I watched streamers and I wasn't a cheap bastard, i would donate to them too.
    I can understand why someone smokes crack.  It gets you high, and then you get addicted, so you keep doing it, knowing it is bad and you shouldn't.  I'm not saying its good and people should give crack a try - I'm just saying I can understand why there are crackheads.  I cannot understand people going out of their way to watch people play video games online, when they own the fucking video game and can play it themselves.  I can understand people watching the best of the best playing each other in competition, which is not what happens 99.9% of the time.  It makes no sense at all to me, and as I said, I do not trust the cognitive ability of someone who does so.  Now compound that distrust if the person is sending 1k to someone they watch play a video game online.

    Also, I have no desire to smoke crack.  But I would much rather smoke crack than watch someone play a vide game online.  Smoking crack would mean I have poor judgement.  Watching other people play video games online means I am lacking the cognitive process necessary to make a judgement. 

    I'm a biased?  Yes.  Close-minded?  Probably.  Correct?  I certainly believe so.  Fair?  Yes.  I love my kids with a fanatical passion.  My kids love watching people play video games online far more than playing video games, and I certainly wouldn't trust them to represent me as legal council either.  
    KrematoryMrMelGibson
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,006
    edited June 2018
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    blamo2000 said:

    We'll have to agree to disagree on that last point.  
    No need, I proved my point, your agreement isn't necessary.

    B)
    I proved my point.

    If I was in trouble and sat down with a lawyer that told me he just sent 1k to someone he likes watching play video games online I would call him a fucking idiot and immediately walk out.  Even if it meant I had to represent myself.

    If he told me he spent 1k on crack I would trust him far more and probably stay.   I trust crackhead lawyers with my very freedom more than I trust the cognitive abilities of anyone who would send 1k to someone they watch play video games online.
    Umm, i would never trust a crackhead over someone who donates $1000. Some people have a lot of money and are veey generous. The crackhead is fucked up by a chemically induced rat race he/she cannot win. People throw their lives and others and commit crimes on drugs and to feed their habit. I've heard of doctors stealing their colleagues prescription pads to write themselves narcotics.

    Someone who donates to a streamer likely has a ton of money and is feeling generous. If I watched streamers and I wasn't a cheap bastard, i would donate to them too.
    I can understand why someone smokes crack.  It gets you high, and then you get addicted, so you keep doing it, knowing it is bad and you shouldn't.  I'm not saying its good and people should give crack a try - I'm just saying I can understand why there are crackheads.  I cannot understand people going out of their way to watch people play video games online, when they own the fucking video game and can play it themselves.  I can understand people watching the best of the best playing each other in competition, which is not what happens 99.9% of the time.  It makes no sense at all to me, and as I said, I do not trust the cognitive ability of someone who does so.  Now compound that distrust if the person is sending 1k to someone they watch play a video game online.

    Also, I have no desire to smoke crack.  But I would much rather smoke crack than watch someone play a vide game online.  Smoking crack would mean I have poor judgement.  Watching other people play video games online means I am lacking the cognitive process necessary to make a judgement. 

    I'm a biased?  Yes.  Close-minded?  Probably.  Correct?  I certainly believe so.  Fair?  Yes.  I love my kids with a fanatical passion.  My kids love watching people play video games online far more than playing video games, and I certainly wouldn't trust them to represent me as legal council either.  
    I assume then you wouldn't trust anyone who donates money for other entertainment purposes, say such as a local orchestra or art museum?

    Or those folks who donate on crowd funding to promising authors,  musicians or whatever.

    Not saying I've done any of those, but I don't judge the streamer donation any differently.

    I also try to tone down the hyperbole in my comparisons,  there is no world where smoking crack by you or others is the preferred choice.

    Well, unless they announce the earth will be hit by a giant asteroid later this year, wiping out all life, maybe in that scenario...maybe.
    MrMelGibson

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    CheechGLG said:
    With a purely pve game, can there even be P2W???
    No, but some seem to think so. Gotta be first people?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,006
    edited June 2018
    Soki123 said:
    CheechGLG said:
    With a purely pve game, can there even be P2W???
    No, but some seem to think so. Gotta be first people?
    What's even stranger is most of those folks concerned about this have almost no shot at being "first," even if given a month's head start over the power gamers.

    Most are worrying over being denied from the possibility of being first,  even though the probability is so low they would be better served worrying about being struck by lightning.

    Indoors, in the Sahara desert, during a snowstorm. Still more likely.

    ;)
    LackingMMOMrMelGibson

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    edited June 2018
    Kyleran said:

    What's even stranger is most of those folks concerned about this have almost no shot at being "first," even if given a month's head start over the power gamers.
    I expect to be competitive at these firsts:

    first Ranger to 100 deaths;

    first ranger to take a harm touch for the team;

    first player to reroll due to character lost in the woods;

    first player to drown in a town fountain; and

    first player to have no gear that matches.

    Hold my beer mate while I set every record. 


    Post edited by Amathe on
    MendelKyleranpooh2309LackingMMOMrMelGibson

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,071
    Kyleran said:

    I assume then you wouldn't trust anyone who donates money for other entertainment purposes, say such as a local orchestra or art museum?

    Or those folks who donate on crowd funding to promising authors,  musicians or whatever.

    Not saying I've done any of those, but I don't judge the streamer donation any differently.

    I also try to tone down the hyperbole in my comparisons,  there is no world where smoking crack by you or others is the preferred choice.

    Well, unless they announce the earth will be hit by a giant asteroid later this year, wiping out all life, maybe in that scenario...maybe.

    This is an extremely false equivalency.  Donating money to someone how creates something does not equate to donating money to someone playing a video game other people created.

    It is equivalent to donating money to someone taping themselves watching a movie.

    Or donating money to someone taping themselves looking at art at a museum or listening to an orchestra.

    How exactly would crowdfunding of a person who tapes themselves playing a game work?  Stretch goal 2 - I tape myself going to the bathroom?

    Games are made to be played.  Games that someone owns and could play are not being played in lieu of watching someone else play it.  These games are not difficult.  Anyone can play them.  

    Unless it is a competition between the best players, which, again, is not 99.9% of what people watch.  Keeping with the sports analogy - it is literally tantamount to watch some idiot play catch with himself in his backyard.

    And no, I would not donate money to watch someone play catch with themselves, or record themselves watching a movie, reading a book, listening to music, nor looking at art.

    I would pay money to watch a movie, read a book, listen to music, and look at art.  And PLAY a video game myself. I would never trust anyone that paid or donated to watch someone do any of that.  It is weird, unseemly, and outright insane.  

    And my preferring to smoke crack over donating to watch someone play a video game is anything but hyperbole.  I could say the same about the ridiculous false equivalencies you made, but I think you were serious in thinking watching a video of someone play a video game is somehow art or entertainment.  I strongly disagree.  

    Again, we can agree to disagree but you refused to do so above.  So we can keep discussing it or I could go play a video game and you can go watch a video of someone playing a video game, but I will always take crack over watching videos of someone playing a video game, and I will never trust the cognitive abilities of anyone who donates money to someone they enjoy watching videos of other people playing video games.  It is what it is. 
    KyleranMrMelGibson
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,379
    edited June 2018
    CheechGLG said:
    With a purely pve game, can there even be P2W???
    Yes, they're called Exp potions and Krono. 

    Edit: Not that Pantheon will have these. But it does exist. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,075
    @blamo2000

    I think you are a bit off point. The people playing video games have their pictures up and are interacting with the game they are playing as well as having commentary. Also, twitch TV was started several years back and in 3 years grew so much that it was bought for $900 million. 

    No one pays $900 million dollars for a site to watch people play games. You are not watching someone play a game. You are watching a streamer interact with a game. The streamers are usually interactive, charismatic, and funny. Believe me, the top streamers aren't there silently playing their video games. They are playing the games religiously on a schedule and interacting with people that chat on TwitchTV. 

    It is entertainment. People donate to those people for many reasons. Some enjoy them and appreciate their effort and have money to blow. I buy cosmetics in Path of Exile, i'm super cheap in general, but i'll loosen the purse strings with Path of Exile because I appreciate how they make their game. People do the same to streamers. It could be that people realize that some streamers don't have jobs and appreciate that their job is to entertain people while playing someone's favorite game. 

    For example, if i were to watch the top PoE streamer (HC Mathil I think) and i liked what he did, i may donate to him out of appreciation. But since i'm so goddamn cheap, the likelihood, I do that is remote. Also, I did one Twitch session with Entropia where I put down Amp 13 mines and ran an animal trivia contest. It was fun. If i continued to entertain people then perhaps they'd donate to me. 

    Cryomatrix
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited June 2018
    The weirdness comes when you compare it to the closest thing we have established for other forms of entertainment: commentary.

    Generally, commentary is paid by the organization that's broadcasting the event.  They make that back through advertisements aired during the same period.  Streamers, afaik, don't include commercial breaks.  If they get paid by Twitch and the publisher for the free advertising that comes with the streamer playing their game, then also take money directly from viewers, that's akin to double or triple-dipping, comparatively.  But, I don't visit Twitch, nor have I read up on how exactly streamers make their money, so I'm just speaking hypothetically.

    All that aside, even if they are triple-dipping on the revenue streams, they aren't making nearly what, say, Jon Gruden is making as an NFL commentator (at or above $6.5 million a year, currently).  So I'm largely ambivalent to the entire thing.
    MrMelGibson

    image
  • bentrimbentrim Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Lets not forget the fact that those superbowl tickets represent a PRODUCT...not a PROMISE!! This IMHO, is the WORST of misrepresentation. There is NO timeline or path shown for this DREAM (as this can no longer be called a game when there is nothing tangible to hold on to). Horrible planning...horrible marketing...and apparently NO appropriate funding, to ensure the future of this "dream"
  • GeekyGeeky Member UncommonPosts: 407
    blamo2000 said:
    Kyleran said:

    I assume then you wouldn't trust anyone who donates money for other entertainment purposes, say such as a local orchestra or art museum?

    Or those folks who donate on crowd funding to promising authors,  musicians or whatever.

    Not saying I've done any of those, but I don't judge the streamer donation any differently.

    I also try to tone down the hyperbole in my comparisons,  there is no world where smoking crack by you or others is the preferred choice.

    Well, unless they announce the earth will be hit by a giant asteroid later this year, wiping out all life, maybe in that scenario...maybe.

    This is an extremely false equivalency.  Donating money to someone how creates something does not equate to donating money to someone playing a video game other people created.

    It is equivalent to donating money to someone taping themselves watching a movie.

    Or donating money to someone taping themselves looking at art at a museum or listening to an orchestra.

    How exactly would crowdfunding of a person who tapes themselves playing a game work?  Stretch goal 2 - I tape myself going to the bathroom?

    Games are made to be played.  Games that someone owns and could play are not being played in lieu of watching someone else play it.  These games are not difficult.  Anyone can play them.  

    Unless it is a competition between the best players, which, again, is not 99.9% of what people watch.  Keeping with the sports analogy - it is literally tantamount to watch some idiot play catch with himself in his backyard.

    And no, I would not donate money to watch someone play catch with themselves, or record themselves watching a movie, reading a book, listening to music, nor looking at art.

    I would pay money to watch a movie, read a book, listen to music, and look at art.  And PLAY a video game myself. I would never trust anyone that paid or donated to watch someone do any of that.  It is weird, unseemly, and outright insane.  

    And my preferring to smoke crack over donating to watch someone play a video game is anything but hyperbole.  I could say the same about the ridiculous false equivalencies you made, but I think you were serious in thinking watching a video of someone play a video game is somehow art or entertainment.  I strongly disagree.  

    Again, we can agree to disagree but you refused to do so above.  So we can keep discussing it or I could go play a video game and you can go watch a video of someone playing a video game, but I will always take crack over watching videos of someone playing a video game, and I will never trust the cognitive abilities of anyone who donates money to someone they enjoy watching videos of other people playing video games.  It is what it is. 
    blamo2000,  I think you're wrong.  I agree with Kyleran.  It's EXACTLY the same as paying money to watch football players.  

    I would pay money to watch a good Twitch player.  And I will even bet that soon, the best raid guilds out there will "sell" their strats on the hardest raid mobs.   People who can't do it, want to be able to, and to do so they'd probably pay some money for it.  So, why not make money selling the way?  

    I actually enjoy watching other people play video games.  They think differently than me, are better than me and if this person was a "pro" I'd probably see stuff I couldn't do.  I've played games my whole life, I've also played football, basketball and baseball my whole life, but you'll never see me claiming to be a pro.  Just like video games.  Some people are better than me and I enjoy watching them.
    KyleranMrMelGibson
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,715
    edited June 2018
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    How can a PvE game be P2W?

    So assume another player buys all his power and does all the PvE content before you do - this impacts you how exactly?

    It's not like dungeons and bosses in Pantheon can only be cleared once - everything respawns, it doesn't make any difference who does it first.

    Assume that someone will do it first - assume that there will be players who will play more than you, be in guilds that are stronger than yours and be better geared - is this a problem for you?

    What does it matter?

    For me the notion that a purely PvE focused game can somehow be "P2W" is just so silly

    I know that there will be better more powerful players in Pantheon then me - how they got there is frankly none of my business as it doesn't impact me one bit.

    If they bought their accounts, if they paid the devs, or they just played a lot - or whatever - what difference does it make to anyone else?

    Because of some imaginary epeen "first" contest?
    Oh come on, does that question really need an answer?
    You know dam well, how it works when you can't keep up with BiS players in PVE.
    I actually don't, do they put a lien on your computer or something?   ;)

    I understand needing raid gear to complete certain content,  but I rarely recall ever having a BIS item, like say an orange item back in Vanilla WOW days.
    EQ was rampant with content deniers, loot farmers, gold sellers, camp stealers and general asshattery where the power gap played a huge role in PvE griefing.  Brad is a believer in competition for resources and content and he's stated recently that he intends to do the same in Pantheon.  He did not mention any game mechanics for policing, just the failed Play Nice Policy of the past and the supposed deterrent of black listing for bad behavior.  I remember someone on one of these boards in the past labeling it PvEvP.  I can't say I'm any more fond of that than I am of regular PvP, but at least there you can try to kill the perp(s) harassing you.


    Bear in mind that WoW has instancing not only for content, but for resource gathering too.  EQ did not and they don't want it in Pantheon either, which inevitably leads to griefing of the less powerful / hardcore by jerks and those playing to earn money by selling off game loot and jacking the price by locking down the NPC's that drop the good stuff.  Brad's vision of risk vs. rewards doesn't allow for random drops, so quest and loot npc's become hot targets.

    image
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    Lurv said:
    I see there's packages going well above $1,000 to $10k. Are these people going to be superior to the $50 pledge players? 
    No. /thread.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,625
    edited June 2018
    Brunlin said:
    Lurv said:
    I see there's packages going well above $1,000 to $10k. Are these people going to be superior to the $50 pledge players? Is this going to have a p2w effect? Need to know before I drop any money on this. If some guy is gonna drop $5k just to be way ahead and superior to me then hell with that.
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/join/#vip

     You could just read what it gives you and make your mind up yourself as they are very transparent on the bonuses that you get. 

    Its typical these days for games that ask for pledges to have some extremely insane pledging options outside of the normal packages. Its for the whales out there,and I cant say that I blame them. In todays market where you have peeps dumping 1k on their favorite streamer like Ninja while playing Fortnite, very much proves there are players with a ton of money that dont mind parting with it on a streamer or a game that they like. So if you are a game developer asking for pledges,you want to offer the whales something to encourage them to depart with their money. At the same time you dont want to alienate your community. Im sure its a fine line that they are walking.

     I myself, will not pledge. I am planning on playing this game, but I am ok with waiting for the game to release, than buying it for box price and subbing from there.

     All I know is if I had 10k to drop on a game it better have a cruise or a very good family vacation package bundled in with it... ROTFLMAO!!!!

     
    Everyone is so worried about P2W they're not asking whether we should be selling cruises and parties for $1k, $5k, $10k or more, and how that is affecting development.

    I don't care if rich people want to blow their money that way. It's their money.

    If a bunch of poor desperate MMO slobs want to throw $15/mo at an indie MMO built for rich people, so be it. It's their money.

    I'm not interested in supporting games or gaming systems built on this though. For one, most indie MMOs are second rate. Secondly, it deeply affects game design and community development as well.
    MadFrenchieKyleranMrMelGibson
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,379
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    How can a PvE game be P2W?

    So assume another player buys all his power and does all the PvE content before you do - this impacts you how exactly?

    It's not like dungeons and bosses in Pantheon can only be cleared once - everything respawns, it doesn't make any difference who does it first.

    Assume that someone will do it first - assume that there will be players who will play more than you, be in guilds that are stronger than yours and be better geared - is this a problem for you?

    What does it matter?

    For me the notion that a purely PvE focused game can somehow be "P2W" is just so silly

    I know that there will be better more powerful players in Pantheon then me - how they got there is frankly none of my business as it doesn't impact me one bit.

    If they bought their accounts, if they paid the devs, or they just played a lot - or whatever - what difference does it make to anyone else?

    Because of some imaginary epeen "first" contest?
    Oh come on, does that question really need an answer?
    You know dam well, how it works when you can't keep up with BiS players in PVE.
    I actually don't, do they put a lien on your computer or something?   ;)

    I understand needing raid gear to complete certain content,  but I rarely recall ever having a BIS item, like say an orange item back in Vanilla WOW days.
    EQ was rampant with content deniers, loot farmers, gold sellers, camp stealers and general asshattery where the power gap played a huge role in PvE griefing.  Brad is a believer in competition for resources and content and he's stated recently that he intends to do the same in Pantheon.  He did not mention any game mechanics for policing, just the failed Play Nice Policy of the past and the supposed deterrent of black listing for bad behavior.  I remember someone on one of these boards in the past labeling it PvEvP.  I can't say I'm any more fond of that than I am of regular PvP, but at least there you can try to kill the perp(s) harassing you.
    Vanguard raiding, without being instanced, wasn't as contested as EQ1. The APW Wearhouse had multiple wings and fast respawns with long lockout timers, which allowed multiple guilds per server the ability to raid without having to be hardcore. 

    So they could do similarly in Pantheon, without compromising the vision. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,715
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    How can a PvE game be P2W?

    So assume another player buys all his power and does all the PvE content before you do - this impacts you how exactly?

    It's not like dungeons and bosses in Pantheon can only be cleared once - everything respawns, it doesn't make any difference who does it first.

    Assume that someone will do it first - assume that there will be players who will play more than you, be in guilds that are stronger than yours and be better geared - is this a problem for you?

    What does it matter?

    For me the notion that a purely PvE focused game can somehow be "P2W" is just so silly

    I know that there will be better more powerful players in Pantheon then me - how they got there is frankly none of my business as it doesn't impact me one bit.

    If they bought their accounts, if they paid the devs, or they just played a lot - or whatever - what difference does it make to anyone else?

    Because of some imaginary epeen "first" contest?
    Oh come on, does that question really need an answer?
    You know dam well, how it works when you can't keep up with BiS players in PVE.
    I actually don't, do they put a lien on your computer or something?   ;)

    I understand needing raid gear to complete certain content,  but I rarely recall ever having a BIS item, like say an orange item back in Vanilla WOW days.
    EQ was rampant with content deniers, loot farmers, gold sellers, camp stealers and general asshattery where the power gap played a huge role in PvE griefing.  Brad is a believer in competition for resources and content and he's stated recently that he intends to do the same in Pantheon.  He did not mention any game mechanics for policing, just the failed Play Nice Policy of the past and the supposed deterrent of black listing for bad behavior.  I remember someone on one of these boards in the past labeling it PvEvP.  I can't say I'm any more fond of that than I am of regular PvP, but at least there you can try to kill the perp(s) harassing you.
    Vanguard raiding, without being instanced, wasn't as contested as EQ1. The APW Wearhouse had multiple wings and fast respawns with long lockout timers, which allowed multiple guilds per server the ability to raid without having to be hardcore. 

    So they could do similarly in Pantheon, without compromising the vision. 
    Yes, but Brad has stated over and over that this is the spiritual successor of EQ, not Vanguard.  Considering design decisions so far, that statement is spot on.

    image
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,379
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    How can a PvE game be P2W?

    So assume another player buys all his power and does all the PvE content before you do - this impacts you how exactly?

    It's not like dungeons and bosses in Pantheon can only be cleared once - everything respawns, it doesn't make any difference who does it first.

    Assume that someone will do it first - assume that there will be players who will play more than you, be in guilds that are stronger than yours and be better geared - is this a problem for you?

    What does it matter?

    For me the notion that a purely PvE focused game can somehow be "P2W" is just so silly

    I know that there will be better more powerful players in Pantheon then me - how they got there is frankly none of my business as it doesn't impact me one bit.

    If they bought their accounts, if they paid the devs, or they just played a lot - or whatever - what difference does it make to anyone else?

    Because of some imaginary epeen "first" contest?
    Oh come on, does that question really need an answer?
    You know dam well, how it works when you can't keep up with BiS players in PVE.
    I actually don't, do they put a lien on your computer or something?   ;)

    I understand needing raid gear to complete certain content,  but I rarely recall ever having a BIS item, like say an orange item back in Vanilla WOW days.
    EQ was rampant with content deniers, loot farmers, gold sellers, camp stealers and general asshattery where the power gap played a huge role in PvE griefing.  Brad is a believer in competition for resources and content and he's stated recently that he intends to do the same in Pantheon.  He did not mention any game mechanics for policing, just the failed Play Nice Policy of the past and the supposed deterrent of black listing for bad behavior.  I remember someone on one of these boards in the past labeling it PvEvP.  I can't say I'm any more fond of that than I am of regular PvP, but at least there you can try to kill the perp(s) harassing you.
    Vanguard raiding, without being instanced, wasn't as contested as EQ1. The APW Wearhouse had multiple wings and fast respawns with long lockout timers, which allowed multiple guilds per server the ability to raid without having to be hardcore. 

    So they could do similarly in Pantheon, without compromising the vision. 
    Yes, but Brad has stated over and over that this is the spiritual successor of EQ, not Vanguard.  Considering design decisions so far, that statement is spot on.
    I've recall the Visionary Realms team mention both EQ1 and Vanguard as being influences for Pantheon, not just EQ1. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 9,028
    When you step back and really look; this whole idea of pledging money above and beyond the projected price point just for some trinkets in a game that won't mean anything a year into it is purely asinine.

    'A fool and his money are soon parted

    When I play a multiplayer game and I see other players with these items I think, boy was it worth it? nope. Nine times out of ten something similar will come along, or better. All you are left with is a skin that maybe is slightly different then the others and the fact that you can say 'Hey I was here first'. 
    Torval
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,715
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    How can a PvE game be P2W?

    So assume another player buys all his power and does all the PvE content before you do - this impacts you how exactly?

    It's not like dungeons and bosses in Pantheon can only be cleared once - everything respawns, it doesn't make any difference who does it first.

    Assume that someone will do it first - assume that there will be players who will play more than you, be in guilds that are stronger than yours and be better geared - is this a problem for you?

    What does it matter?

    For me the notion that a purely PvE focused game can somehow be "P2W" is just so silly

    I know that there will be better more powerful players in Pantheon then me - how they got there is frankly none of my business as it doesn't impact me one bit.

    If they bought their accounts, if they paid the devs, or they just played a lot - or whatever - what difference does it make to anyone else?

    Because of some imaginary epeen "first" contest?
    Oh come on, does that question really need an answer?
    You know dam well, how it works when you can't keep up with BiS players in PVE.
    I actually don't, do they put a lien on your computer or something?   ;)

    I understand needing raid gear to complete certain content,  but I rarely recall ever having a BIS item, like say an orange item back in Vanilla WOW days.
    EQ was rampant with content deniers, loot farmers, gold sellers, camp stealers and general asshattery where the power gap played a huge role in PvE griefing.  Brad is a believer in competition for resources and content and he's stated recently that he intends to do the same in Pantheon.  He did not mention any game mechanics for policing, just the failed Play Nice Policy of the past and the supposed deterrent of black listing for bad behavior.  I remember someone on one of these boards in the past labeling it PvEvP.  I can't say I'm any more fond of that than I am of regular PvP, but at least there you can try to kill the perp(s) harassing you.
    Vanguard raiding, without being instanced, wasn't as contested as EQ1. The APW Wearhouse had multiple wings and fast respawns with long lockout timers, which allowed multiple guilds per server the ability to raid without having to be hardcore. 

    So they could do similarly in Pantheon, without compromising the vision. 
    Yes, but Brad has stated over and over that this is the spiritual successor of EQ, not Vanguard.  Considering design decisions so far, that statement is spot on.
    I've recall the Visionary Realms team mention both EQ1 and Vanguard as being influences for Pantheon, not just EQ1. 
    I wish that were true in regards to class selection and design.  I find the current roster rather dull compared to Vanguard's more unique design.

    image
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 542
    Did something get called into question as p2w without first actually being looked at?

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,425
    The point of PvE games isn't to win, it's to have fun. I can't believe people are still arguing about this, lol.

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 282
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    How can a PvE game be P2W?

    So assume another player buys all his power and does all the PvE content before you do - this impacts you how exactly?

    It's not like dungeons and bosses in Pantheon can only be cleared once - everything respawns, it doesn't make any difference who does it first.

    Assume that someone will do it first - assume that there will be players who will play more than you, be in guilds that are stronger than yours and be better geared - is this a problem for you?

    What does it matter?

    For me the notion that a purely PvE focused game can somehow be "P2W" is just so silly

    I know that there will be better more powerful players in Pantheon then me - how they got there is frankly none of my business as it doesn't impact me one bit.

    If they bought their accounts, if they paid the devs, or they just played a lot - or whatever - what difference does it make to anyone else?

    Because of some imaginary epeen "first" contest?
    Oh come on, does that question really need an answer?
    You know dam well, how it works when you can't keep up with BiS players in PVE.
    I actually don't, do they put a lien on your computer or something?   ;)

    I understand needing raid gear to complete certain content,  but I rarely recall ever having a BIS item, like say an orange item back in Vanilla WOW days.
    EQ was rampant with content deniers, loot farmers, gold sellers, camp stealers and general asshattery where the power gap played a huge role in PvE griefing.  Brad is a believer in competition for resources and content and he's stated recently that he intends to do the same in Pantheon.  He did not mention any game mechanics for policing, just the failed Play Nice Policy of the past and the supposed deterrent of black listing for bad behavior.  I remember someone on one of these boards in the past labeling it PvEvP.  I can't say I'm any more fond of that than I am of regular PvP, but at least there you can try to kill the perp(s) harassing you.


    Bear in mind that WoW has instancing not only for content, but for resource gathering too.  EQ did not and they don't want it in Pantheon either, which inevitably leads to griefing of the less powerful / hardcore by jerks and those playing to earn money by selling off game loot and jacking the price by locking down the NPC's that drop the good stuff.  Brad's vision of risk vs. rewards doesn't allow for random drops, so quest and loot npc's become hot targets.
    Not sure if Bards will be the same in this game but they were great at handling this kind of behavior in early EQ . 
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    CheechGLG said:
    With a purely pve game, can there even be P2W???
    Well, if the kill goes to the group that did most damage there will be winners and losers.  Idk how they are handling it though.  Could be based on whoever tags it first, or it could be "everyone is a winner" based.
    Torval
  • LurvLurv Member UncommonPosts: 409
    I guess I'll give it a go then. The only reason I said p2w even though it's PvE is I heard that there might be a PvP server. But if the big pledges are just for e peen stroking then yeah that doesn't bother me. Looking forward to launch. Whenever that is. Thanks for the replies.

    Getting too old for this $&17!

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,071
    @blamo2000

    I think you are a bit off point. The people playing video games have their pictures up and are interacting with the game they are playing as well as having commentary. Also, twitch TV was started several years back and in 3 years grew so much that it was bought for $900 million. 

    No one pays $900 million dollars for a site to watch people play games. You are not watching someone play a game. You are watching a streamer interact with a game. The streamers are usually interactive, charismatic, and funny. Believe me, the top streamers aren't there silently playing their video games. They are playing the games religiously on a schedule and interacting with people that chat on TwitchTV. 

    It is entertainment. People donate to those people for many reasons. Some enjoy them and appreciate their effort and have money to blow. I buy cosmetics in Path of Exile, i'm super cheap in general, but i'll loosen the purse strings with Path of Exile because I appreciate how they make their game. People do the same to streamers. It could be that people realize that some streamers don't have jobs and appreciate that their job is to entertain people while playing someone's favorite game. 

    For example, if i were to watch the top PoE streamer (HC Mathil I think) and i liked what he did, i may donate to him out of appreciation. But since i'm so goddamn cheap, the likelihood, I do that is remote. Also, I did one Twitch session with Entropia where I put down Amp 13 mines and ran an animal trivia contest. It was fun. If i continued to entertain people then perhaps they'd donate to me. 

    Cryomatrix
    The weirdness comes when you compare it to the closest thing we have established for other forms of entertainment: commentary.

    Generally, commentary is paid by the organization that's broadcasting the event.  They make that back through advertisements aired during the same period.  Streamers, afaik, don't include commercial breaks.  If they get paid by Twitch and the publisher for the free advertising that comes with the streamer playing their game, then also take money directly from viewers, that's akin to double or triple-dipping, comparatively.  But, I don't visit Twitch, nor have I read up on how exactly streamers make their money, so I'm just speaking hypothetically.

    All that aside, even if they are triple-dipping on the revenue streams, they aren't making nearly what, say, Jon Gruden is making as an NFL commentator (at or above $6.5 million a year, currently).  So I'm largely ambivalent to the entire thing.

    So, we can say it's like watching someone watch a show and commenting on it while s/he is watching.  Like Mystery Science Theater. 

    I can agree with that.  I guess that show was popular.  But it isn't for me.  I prefer watching the show myself.  I still would rather smoke crack than watch a video of someone else play a video game.

    Director commentary on a movie may be another good example.  I can't watch a movie with people talking though, so I never used that feature either.   That and I just don't plain care. 
    MrMelGibson
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