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I worry about the small guy

It's a beautiful Saturday afternoon.  A great day for baseball.  

Joe grabs his baseball glove and heads for the local field hoping to play ball and make a few friends in his new town. 
As he arrives, in comes several Packup trucks and a few cars.  They unload a keg of beer, set it all up and automatically head out onto the field to their pre-defined positions. 

Joe with full intentions of fitting in approaches this seeming nice guy and ask if he could join in.  Nick is his name, Nick is truly a nice guy and has a little conversation with Joe, but he also informs Joe that they're full and they don't have room for him on the team.  Joe smiles and watches them play for a while, grabs his glove and goes home.  




Pantheon like first generation mmorpg's will be set as a team based game, such as the example above.  Many new players like "Joe" will come from all around the world hoping to find a new social niche.  On paper Pantheon sounds great.  The player will work as a team on a slow dungeon crawl, others will craft weapons and bags for their Guilds. 

New players should understand the basics of penetrating the social aspects of such a game.  Many will, but I worry about the small guy with good intentions. This type will be a large percentage of the population. 


I hope Visionary Realms will have a great feature to help a guy like Joe have a place in the world too, because MOST will NOT have a pre-determined game plan.  Thousands will get sucked into the small worthless Guild that yield nothing and constantly searching for something that works..... This is 80% of the population of any mmorpg I've ever played.   

I want this to work for everyone :) 
Thunder073craftseekerUngoodNarug
«13

Comments

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,154
    I don't, as that would mean it was built for solo players. Now bear in mind I know hardly anything about Pantheon, just going on your post. MMO players need to understand a guild is one of the things that sets a MMO apart from other games. Get yourself in a guild, that's all the "plan" you need.

    When I played BDO, I hardly did any discord, but when they were talking in game stuff they said so in guild chat. I turned on to listen and found out nearly everything I needed to know. It is not a plan, its common sense, get yourself in a guild and the game will flow much, much better.
    Thunder073

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004
    edited June 2018
    So you are asking Devs to make the game readily PUG able or include Dungeon finders?

    If so, I don't see that happening too much, but I'm assuming players will be able to throw together pick up groups and so a decent amount of content.

    As you said, more challenging high end content will likely be the providence of the well organized group or guild, and finding one always was a key "skill' required for success "back in the day."

    Just like combat, players have to learn develop their social skills and make strategic decisions. 

    Warning: Long story ahead,  key point has been made if readers would like to skip to the next post. - Kyle ;)

    I recall my character in DAOC was a stealther, with almost zero group utility so leveling was a challenge as few wanted him on that basis.

    I learned to reach out to group leaders at popular camping sights and ask to be put on the list.  I'd then hunt or craft nearby so when / if the nod finally came I could be there in a few minutes.

    I played my Infiltrator well, carefully following instructions so to not do too much burst damage (a class specialty) nearly which would draw too much aggro and lead to my early death.

    If I did die, I never blamed anyone,  not even it really was someone else's fault for breaking the mezz. (Which I also was careful never to do)

    I was always friendly in group chat, praising the rest of the team after a particularly great recovery and when it came time to go I would try and find a replacement if necessary and always give the leader a good 20 minute warning. 

    Of course, building a network with regular group leaders was important, so after the night I was sure to thank everyone, and if appropriate ask if I could put them on my friends list.

    Key was a good list of group leaders, tanks, and healers. Then when I would log in the next time I'd  say hello to many of them on a regular basis, have a quick chat about "their" progress and experience recently in game and sometimes, but not always ask if they were in or knew of any groups going on, and if so ask if I could get on the list.

    There's even more to it if I wanted to go on regarding how to turn such contacts into guild group invites (much better if you play a key role such as tank, healer, mezzer, speeder) and if you do a really great job as a fill in, eventually you may get invited to be a regular in a group or guild.

    I was a great healer at one time and well known during my time zone.  I found myself unemployed for a spell, so was logging in early in the morning.

    I ran into a Japanese guild / group who spoke very little English, but I did such a great job I was invited back repeatedly and they plunged into dungeon depths I'd never reached before.

    Fortunately I found a job soon so I lost touch with my early morning friends....but that's just how it's done when you can't always meet with a pre selected group.

    So I'd say don't worry, players will figure it all out, and relearn these 'lost' social skills fairly quickly......or go back to WOW I suppose.

    ;)


    ScotThunder073CryomatrixRhiow-DarkstepMrMelGibson

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    Scot said:
    I don't, as that would mean it was built for solo players. Now bear in mind I know hardly anything about Pantheon, just going on your post. MMO players need to understand a guild is one of the things that sets a MMO apart from other games. Get yourself in a guild, that's all the "plan" you need.

    When I played BDO, I hardly did any discord, but when they were talking in game stuff they said so in guild chat. I turned on to listen and found out nearly everything I needed to know. It is not a plan, its common sense, get yourself in a guild and the game will flow much, much better.
    Everyone wants to start a Guild..... 5 people in each.  

    I one time made a post to limit the amount of Guilds.  MAN, did I get slammed for that one. 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    DMKano said:
    Joe will be told to F off 99% of the time.

    It's not Pantheon - it's the other players. 

    Be glad it's not a PvP game, as Joe would probably be ganked and spawn camped.
    WoW, poor Joe :(
    Octagon7711
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,154
    Scot said:
    I don't, as that would mean it was built for solo players. Now bear in mind I know hardly anything about Pantheon, just going on your post. MMO players need to understand a guild is one of the things that sets a MMO apart from other games. Get yourself in a guild, that's all the "plan" you need.

    When I played BDO, I hardly did any discord, but when they were talking in game stuff they said so in guild chat. I turned on to listen and found out nearly everything I needed to know. It is not a plan, its common sense, get yourself in a guild and the game will flow much, much better.
    Everyone wants to start a Guild..... 5 people in each.  

    I one time made a post to limit the amount of Guilds.  MAN, did I get slammed for that one. 
    The limit for the number of people in a guild is 5? Ok that is odd and I would say detrimental to any MMO. Is this one of these MMOs with a lobby or something? Anyway if need be a number of 5man guilds could communicate under one banner under the likes of Discord. 

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    Kyleran said:
    So you are asking Devs to make the game readily PUG able or include Dungeon finders?

    If so, I don't see that happening too much, but I'm assuming players will be able to throw together pick up groups and so a decent amount of content.

    As you said, more challenging high end content will likely be the providence of the well organized group or guild, and finding one always was a key "skill' required for success "back in the day."

    Just like combat, players have to learn develop their social skills and make strategic decisions. 

    Warning: Long story ahead,  key point has been made if readers would like to skip to the next post. - Kyle ;)

    I recall my character in DAOC was a stealther, with almost zero group utility so leveling was a challenge as few wanted him on that basis.

    I learned to reach out to group leaders at popular camping sights and ask to be put on the list.  I'd then hunt or craft nearby so when / if the nod finally came I could be there in a few minutes.

    I played my Infiltrator well, carefully following instructions so to not do too much burst damage (a class specialty) nearly which would draw too much aggro and lead to my early death.

    If I did die, I never blamed anyone,  not even it really was someone else's fault for breaking the mezz. (Which I also was careful never to do)

    I was always friendly in group chat, praising the rest of the team after a particularly great recovery and when it came time to go I would try and find a replacement if necessary and always give the leader a good 20 minute warning. 

    Of course, building a network with regular group leaders was important, so after the night I was sure to thank everyone, and if appropriate ask if I could put them on my friends list.

    Key was a good list of group leaders, tanks, and healers. Then when I would log in the next time I'd  say hello to many of them on a regular basis, have a quick chat about "their" progress and experience recently in game and sometimes, but not always ask if they were in or knew of any groups going on, and if so ask if I could get on the list.

    There's even more to it if I wanted to go on regarding how to turn such contacts into guild group invites (much better if you play a key role such as tank, healer, mezzer, speeder) and if you do a really great job as a fill in, eventually you may get invited to be a regular in a group or guild.

    I was a great healer at one time and well known during my time zone.  I found myself unemployed for a spell, so was logging in early in the morning.

    I ran into a Japanese guild / group who spoke very little English, but I did such a great job I was invited back repeatedly and they plunged into dungeon depths I'd never reached before.

    Fortunately I found a job soon so I lost touch with my early morning friends....but that's just how it's done when you can't always meet with a pre selected group.

    So I'd say don't worry, players will figure it all out, and relearn these 'lost' social skills fairly quickly......or go back to WOW I suppose.

    ;)



    I guess I see your point Kylern,  

    You can't be your brothers keeper, everyone has to learn on their own. 

    The shy person may not survive, even if he has intentions to play with others. 

    HOWEVER, it would be nice to have an extremely good social panel, I had brought this up several times.... I guess I really worry about the small guy. 

    I also worry about the hundreds of "crap Guilds made by that 10 year old" that players get sucked into.  But then I can't fix the world.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    I don't, as that would mean it was built for solo players. Now bear in mind I know hardly anything about Pantheon, just going on your post. MMO players need to understand a guild is one of the things that sets a MMO apart from other games. Get yourself in a guild, that's all the "plan" you need.

    When I played BDO, I hardly did any discord, but when they were talking in game stuff they said so in guild chat. I turned on to listen and found out nearly everything I needed to know. It is not a plan, its common sense, get yourself in a guild and the game will flow much, much better.
    Everyone wants to start a Guild..... 5 people in each.  

    I one time made a post to limit the amount of Guilds.  MAN, did I get slammed for that one. 
    The limit for the number of people in a guild is 5? Ok that is odd and I would say detrimental to any MMO. Is this one of these MMOs with a lobby or something? Anyway if need be a number of 5man guilds could communicate under one banner under the likes of Discord. 
    5 people in each is only trying to be dramatic.  

    You have to admit, every game has many worthless Guilds. 
    Scot
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,211
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    I don't, as that would mean it was built for solo players. Now bear in mind I know hardly anything about Pantheon, just going on your post. MMO players need to understand a guild is one of the things that sets a MMO apart from other games. Get yourself in a guild, that's all the "plan" you need.

    When I played BDO, I hardly did any discord, but when they were talking in game stuff they said so in guild chat. I turned on to listen and found out nearly everything I needed to know. It is not a plan, its common sense, get yourself in a guild and the game will flow much, much better.
    Everyone wants to start a Guild..... 5 people in each.  

    I one time made a post to limit the amount of Guilds.  MAN, did I get slammed for that one. 
    The limit for the number of people in a guild is 5? Ok that is odd and I would say detrimental to any MMO. Is this one of these MMOs with a lobby or something? Anyway if need be a number of 5man guilds could communicate under one banner under the likes of Discord. 
    5 people in each is only trying to be dramatic.  

    You have to admit, every game has many worthless Guilds. 
    And Pantheon will have many worthless guilds.
    MrMelGibson
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    The key to enjoying games like this is to seek out and find people who play more or less like you do. If you have average gear and just like to casually xp grind, there are other people like that too. You just have to seek them out.

    If instead you try to hook up with a group of power gamers who are speed grinding through some zone, that's not likely to work out for you. 

    Pantheon can't (and won't try to) eliminate the human part of the game. People are going to turn other people down for groups. People are going to remove people from groups. But those moments present learning opportunities. When I played EQ, not everyone wanted my toon in their group. Over time I learned where I was needed, where I would be accepted, and where not. That is just another social part to a social game.
    delete5230KyleranMrMelGibson

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,858
    DMKano said:
    Joe will be told to F off 99% of the time.

    It's not Pantheon - it's the other players. 

    Be glad it's not a PvP game, as Joe would probably be ganked and spawn camped.
    They will /inspect Joe and determine he is not strong enough for their uber guild, and Joe will be looking for a new game when he can no longer solo in Pantheon.
    Mendel
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,858
    Amathe said:
    The key to enjoying games like this is to seek out and find people who play more or less like you do. If you have average gear and just like to casually xp grind, there are other people like that too. You just have to seek them out.

    If instead you try to hook up with a group of power gamers who are speed grinding through some zone, that's not likely to work out for you. 

    Pantheon can't (and won't try to) eliminate the human part of the game. People are going to turn other people down for groups. People are going to remove people from groups. But those moments present learning opportunities. When I played EQ, not everyone wanted my toon in their group. Over time I learned where I was needed, where I would be accepted, and where not. That is just another social part to a social game.
    The first 3 years I played EQ I dont think I was ever turned down unless there was only one spot open and they had no healer or tank.....The last couple of years it turned into an uber pissing contest wehre almost no one was good enough and some of hte players (like Joe in this thread) strated looking at the newer EQ2 or WoW instead.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,414
    I was Joe back in 1999 when EQ launched. It actually took me a few weeks to figure out that hey, I should probably join a guild. Since then, I've been in a multitude of guilds, including ones I created and lead. Now, since 2014, I've been in a very healthy, active and family friendly guild.

    Everybody was like Joe starting out, so nothing has changed. Joe either needs to figure it out like we all did either by research or in-game chat. As @DMKano pointed out, the success of such a venture almost always lies on the community which, if I'm not mistaken is probably going to be mostly friendly, since Pantheon is not a PvP focused game, but mostly made up of EQ, Vanguard and similar old school communities.

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,697
    edited June 2018
    Rhoklaw said:
    I was Joe back in 1999 when EQ launched. It actually took me a few weeks to figure out that hey, I should probably join a guild. Since then, I've been in a multitude of guilds, including ones I created and lead. Now, since 2014, I've been in a very healthy, active and family friendly guild.

    Everybody was like Joe starting out, so nothing has changed. Joe either needs to figure it out like we all did either by research or in-game chat. As @DMKano pointed out, the success of such a venture almost always lies on the community which, if I'm not mistaken is probably going to be mostly friendly, since Pantheon is not a PvP focused game, but mostly made up of EQ, Vanguard and similar old school communities.
    Agreed but Pantheon (and a couple others) need more than just 'old' mmorpg players to play the game to be a long term success. The gaming landscape does not resemble the landscape of 10 to 20 years ago. I have my doubts about the success of a game like Pantheon in todays gaming climate. It is an old game in a new age. Not sure how long term that business model can be sustained in today's world. We shall see. Pantheon is not the only game coming out in the next few years that cater to that crowd. 
    MendelNarug

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,968
    DMKano said:
    Joe will be told to F off 99% of the time.

    It's not Pantheon - it's the other players. 

    Be glad it's not a PvP game, as Joe would probably be ganked and spawn camped.
    WoW, poor Joe :(
    If Joe does his homework he would know it takes awhile to fit in.  Instead of leaving right away he should have hung out for awhile and made small talk to get  to know the lay of the land and asked a few questions.  It's rare to log into a game for the first time, go to the nearest starter dungeon, spam looking for group and find one right away.
    Kyleran

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,232
    There is definitely a problem with being the lone player in a group game.  Certainly, I think that Pantheon could influence this by creating tools to help players select servers with time-zone preferences.  Being the EST player in a guild operating on PST was quite the pain, especially when the bulk of players wanted to start the raid at 21:00 EST or later and you were facing an 04:00 wake-up.  That gets old, quickly.

    The PUG issue could be offset (at least for awhile) by granting personal bonuses for grouping with players you haven't grouped with before.  It would discourage the "I don't know you, so no" response when asking for a group.  Not an ideal solution, but workable.




    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    What works well for Joes is if they go deep into crafting.  This way they can be over-geared while leveling up, at an albeit slower pace, in items they made for themselves, or purchased from others with the money made from selling their craft goods.
    delete5230Kyleran
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,379
    I don't see what size has to do with anything? In EQ1 I grouped with elves, dwarves, halflings, even gnomes... it made no difference. 
    KyleranSovrathGaendric
    --------------------------------------------
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Another thing is that you never had to be uber to play EQ. There were lots of small and midsize "family and friends" guilds where people played the game together very casually. I knew lots of people who enjoyed the game but never raided - ever. Of course, you don't get best in slot gear that way, but that is no matter if you are a casual player.
    Xodic

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    edited June 2018
    OP, you were talking about "small worthless guilds" and what I've always had a problem with in main games' guild systems is how easy it is to make them. Personally, I hate this concept that everyone wants to lead and expect everyone else to follow (everyone making all these guilds for 2103910293 reasons, so you're on a server with guild numbers close to half the size of the server population sometimes). Honestly, I feel like guilds should have 'milestones' or something they need to complete each week otherwise they get auto-disbanded. Yea yea, I get that guilds should be for whatever niche you want to itch but honestly there's discord and so many other things for that stuff so guilds can honestly be taken more seriously in order to counter the OP's issue. If you're able to hit x amount of character log ins per week while having x amount of quests completed or whatever list would be good, then you should keep your guild. That way people can know whatever guild they either try to join or get invited to will be active and not dead within a week just so the leader can passively make money off it while only logging in once a week. It would be nice to have counter measures for bank stealing too much but that'll require some thought without making guilds completely useless.
    SovrathKyleranCryomatrix
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Look for a group, or start your own. 

    It really is that simple.

    The problems I saw even back in EQ were self inflicted. That is, you would have people who would only accept the perfectly balanced group. If they couldn't join or build to that expectation, they would refuse. 

    I saw it happen many times. They would complain that you didn't have a proper tank class, or healing class, that you didn't have a full group, or that your methods were risky or unconventional, or exp was too slow than what they wanted. 

    They would complain, then go sit in OOC whining for hours about how there aren't any groups. 

    My friends and I would accept anyone to join us and we did some crazy crap, took on challenges people thought were impossible with our makeup, but we succeeded (also failed a lot too, but that was the fun).

    Fact is,  in all the years I played EQ, I never had a hard time finding a group or pulling one together. As I said, it wasn't always Ideal and sometimes we would have to tailor our targets to fit our groups strengths, but I could always get or make a group. My friends could too and it didn't matter what the class was. 

    So that small guy is going to have to learn to make due with what they have available. They have to accept that they won't always get the "perfect" group and the best camp, but that with a little effort you can always find someone else and a spot where you can make progress. 

    Where do you think all that "emergent" game play came from in EQ? It was because people figured out how to take what they had and make it work for them.

    If someone is sitting around LFG all the time, they aren't interested in finding a group, rather they are just looking for a specific group. 
    KyleranHawkaya399
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited June 2018
    Albatroes said:
    OP, you were talking about "small worthless guilds" and what I've always had a problem with in main games' guild systems is how easy it is to make them. Personally, I hate this concept that everyone wants to lead and expect everyone else to follow (everyone making all these guilds for 2103910293 reasons, so you're on a server with guild numbers close to half the size of the server population sometimes). Honestly, I feel like guilds should have 'milestones' or something they need to complete each week otherwise they get auto-disbanded. Yea yea, I get that guilds should be for whatever niche you want to itch but honestly there's discord and so many other things for that stuff so guilds can honestly be taken more seriously in order to counter the OP's issue. If you're able to hit x amount of character log ins per week while having x amount of quests completed or whatever list would be good, then you should keep your guild. That way people can know whatever guild they either try to join or get invited to will be active and not dead within a week just so the leader can passively make money off it while only logging in once a week. It would be nice to have counter measures for bank stealing too much but that'll require some thought without making guilds completely useless.
    Why does it matter? 

    Pantheon is said to be predominantly a group focused game, that puts the party sizes at 6 people. A guild provides a nice means for "in game" congregation and access to other players. Putting in a bunch of hoops, daily crap and conditions doesn't make any sense. 

    If your concern is that joining a guild might be a dead end venture, then maybe spend a bit of time grouping with that guild before you join them? Honestly, if a guild is fast inviting people, then that is likely a guild to avoid anyway.

    There used to be certain process of courtesy in grouping and guild formation. In fact, when I first started playing WoW after moving from EQ, my friends and I used to get irritated by some people who wouldn't say a dang word and would invite you to group or a guild. It was a big no no when I played EQ to do that, and it could get you a bad reputation. 

    So, it doesn't matter how many guilds there are or how easy it is to make them, it is up to the player to determine if the people they group with are worthy of such. I know for my friends and I, people won't be joining our guild unless they have played with us a while. 





  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    The problem with guilds in most games is that you can only join one.  It would be nice if you could join multiple guilds, that way you could still keep in touch with your friends in a social guild and hardcore raid with the raid guild you are in.  It would allow crafter guilds to form, with most people in that guild also in some other guild of their choice.  It would allow role play guilds to exist that only roleplayed without damaging the members in it.  It would also make it a softer choice to join a guild because you wouldn't have to drop the old one to join a new one. 
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    centkin said:
    The problem with guilds in most games is that you can only join one.  It would be nice if you could join multiple guilds, that way you could still keep in touch with your friends in a social guild and hardcore raid with the raid guild you are in.  It would allow crafter guilds to form, with most people in that guild also in some other guild of their choice.  It would allow role play guilds to exist that only roleplayed without damaging the members in it.  It would also make it a softer choice to join a guild because you wouldn't have to drop the old one to join a new one. 
    Not sure it is needed. If you have a good chat utility, you can easily setup chat channels to accommodate guild alliances. I am not against the idea, there are some things that could prove useful with a sub guild system, but a good chat system gets you around a lot of problems with multi-guild functions. 
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,346
    "great feature" to help that little guy,perhaps the shy players etc etc?
    I have said it a thousand times >>>FFXI,devs should pay attention to the ONE game that took classes and combat to the next level and NOBODY has improved upon that 2002 design...nobody.
    Matter of fact most are designing their classes and combat far worse and in case of Wow whatever they had going on is now even more worse than before,they managed to ruin their game.
    Point being do NOT draw influences from Wow or EQ series because ,as i stated FFXI drew from EQ but did it much better.

    So i guess i can point at a couple examples?
    1 multi class aka sub class system.This creates versatility  and a VERY long path to improving your character,gives the game a lot more longevity.
    2 SOLO classes,YES it can be done,FFXI did it,so you can have a full on grouping game ALSO with solo classes.

    That is all i am going to say,it's be PROVEN ,so if the Pantheon team wants to pay attention and IMPROVE what they know >>AWESOME,if not,then just a repeat of a LESSER design from the EQ1 era.


    Big.Daddy.SamediZoeMcCloskey

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,346
    I should make note that just because i loved FFXI that does NOT mean i NEED to see the exact same,all i look for is games to advance the SYSTEMS within,i don't want "old school" or new school,i want BETTER,if you can't give me better then why should i buy into your game?
    I will always aim for the better design in each genre,i couldn't care less what developer makes the game or from what era,give me the best game and that is what i will play.
    LackingMMO

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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