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Fallout 76 is indeed an MMORPG, and it sounds pretty great! - MMORPG.com News

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2018
    Those were post-apoc RPGs, not survival games.

    A simple distinction is that your character can't starve to death in the Wasteland series and the original Fallout titles. Their "needs" on a survival level were not a thing.

    Unless you're reducing survival to "you can die", they don't really fall into the same genre. They are certainly the progenitors of the post-apoc settings we are most familiar with though.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    Limnic said:
    Those were post-apoc RPGs, not survival games.

    A simple distinction is that your character can't starve to death in the Wasteland series and the original Fallout titles. Their "needs" on a survival level were not a thing.

    Unless you're reducing survival to "you can die", they don't really fall into the same genre. They are certainly the progenitors of the post-apoc settings we are most familiar with though.
    Mods

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2018
    Limnic said:
    Those were post-apoc RPGs, not survival games.

    A simple distinction is that your character can't starve to death in the Wasteland series and the original Fallout titles. Their "needs" on a survival level were not a thing.

    Unless you're reducing survival to "you can die", they don't really fall into the same genre. They are certainly the progenitors of the post-apoc settings we are most familiar with though.
    Mods
    Mods are third party. If you include them then there is a wide variety of mod-based survival games that have not been listed beyond that of Wasteland and Fallout, extending back into many early roguelikes.

    As far as features of release titles goes, I would cycle back to restate my previous points.

    The original Wasteland and Fallout titles are also not particularly heavily modded games, with only a few notable mods over the years and most of them hard to find. I'm not certain survival mods were ever made for them.
    blueturtle13
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,631
    DMKano said:
    Not sure why people are so hung on the stupid definition - who  cares? MMO, not mmo, survival - whatever

    Will it have fun gameplay - all that matters to me.
    Definitions are important for many people. If you dont need them, then great for you, but I do not think caring about definitions is something so strange that you should not be able to get it.

    I prefer being able to identify and classify things based on their definition. If we do not stick to them, then what is the point of them existing in the first place.

    If someone tells me they like to listen to metal music, I know what they mean exactly because it is defined.

    Just like metal defines a music genre, MMORPG defines a game genre. One that many of us care about and one we do not appreciate being violated by calling games from other genres MMORPGs. This goes beyond whether a game is fun or not. 


    ScorchienNycteliosCecropia
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    DMKano said:
    Not sure why people are so hung on the stupid definition - who  cares? MMO, not mmo, survival - whatever

    Will it have fun gameplay - all that matters to me.
    Definitions are important for many people. If you dont need them, then great for you, but I do not think caring about definitions is something so strange that you should not be able to get it.

    I prefer being able to identify and classify things based on their definition. If we do not stick to them, then what is the point of them existing in the first place.

    If someone tells me they like to listen to metal music, I know what they mean exactly because it is defined.

    Just like metal defines a music genre, MMORPG defines a game genre. One that many of us care about and one we do not appreciate being violated by calling games from other genres MMORPGs. This goes beyond whether a game is fun or not. 


    I'm totally into metal too dude.

    *plays ska-core*
    coretex666MadFrenchieNyctelios
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    Those were post-apoc RPGs, not survival games.

    A simple distinction is that your character can't starve to death in the Wasteland series and the original Fallout titles. Their "needs" on a survival level were not a thing.

    Unless you're reducing survival to "you can die", they don't really fall into the same genre. They are certainly the progenitors of the post-apoc settings we are most familiar with though.
    Mods
    Mods are third party. If you include them then there is a wide variety of mod-based survival games that have not been listed beyond that of Wasteland and Fallout, extending back into many early roguelikes.

    As far as features of release titles goes, I would cycle back to restate my previous points.

    The original Wasteland and Fallout titles are also not particularly heavily modded games, with only a few notable mods over the years and most of them hard to find. I'm not certain survival mods were ever made for them.
    Yet the entire survival genre was born out of Mods ;)
    Torval

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited June 2018
    DMKano said:
    Not sure why people are so hung on the stupid definition - who  cares? MMO, not mmo, survival - whatever

    Will it have fun gameplay - all that matters to me.
    Definitions are important for many people. If you dont need them, then great for you, but I do not think caring about definitions is something so strange that you should not be able to get it.

    I prefer being able to identify and classify things based on their definition. If we do not stick to them, then what is the point of them existing in the first place.

    If someone tells me they like to listen to metal music, I know what they mean exactly because it is defined.

    Just like metal defines a music genre, MMORPG defines a game genre. One that many of us care about and one we do not appreciate being violated by calling games from other genres MMORPGs. This goes beyond whether a game is fun or not. 


    Really? So when they say they like metal music you can instantly discern which category of metal music they're into?


    "People worry about kids playing with guns, or watching violent videos...
    That some sort of culture of violence will take them over.
    Nobody worries about kids listening to thousands - literally, thousands of songs
    About heartbreak, rejection...pain, misery and loss. Did I listen to pop music
    Because I was miserable... or was I miserable because I listened to pop music?"

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    DMKano said:
    Not sure why people are so hung on the stupid definition - who  cares? MMO, not mmo, survival - whatever

    Will it have fun gameplay - all that matters to me.
    Definitions are important for many people. If you dont need them, then great for you, but I do not think caring about definitions is something so strange that you should not be able to get it.

    I prefer being able to identify and classify things based on their definition. If we do not stick to them, then what is the point of them existing in the first place.

    If someone tells me they like to listen to metal music, I know what they mean exactly because it is defined.

    Just like metal defines a music genre, MMORPG defines a game genre. One that many of us care about and one we do not appreciate being violated by calling games from other genres MMORPGs. This goes beyond whether a game is fun or not. 


    Really? So when they say they like metal music you can instantly discern which category of metal music they're into?


    To me MMO is a genre and MMORPG is a sub-genre. I would consider Fallout 76 an MMO but not an MMORPG.

    Though even 'dozens' is a big stretch for the M in MMO for massively. (To me)

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    DMKano said:
    Not sure why people are so hung on the stupid definition - who  cares? MMO, not mmo, survival - whatever

    Will it have fun gameplay - all that matters to me.
    Definitions are important for many people. If you dont need them, then great for you, but I do not think caring about definitions is something so strange that you should not be able to get it.

    I prefer being able to identify and classify things based on their definition. If we do not stick to them, then what is the point of them existing in the first place.

    If someone tells me they like to listen to metal music, I know what they mean exactly because it is defined.

    Just like metal defines a music genre, MMORPG defines a game genre. One that many of us care about and one we do not appreciate being violated by calling games from other genres MMORPGs. This goes beyond whether a game is fun or not. 


    Really? So when they say they like metal music you can instantly discern which category of metal music they're into?


    To me MMO is a genre and MMORPG is a sub-genre. I would consider Fallout 76 an MMO but not an MMORPG.

    Though even 'dozens' is a big stretch for the M in MMO for massively. (To me)

    And I don't see your point of view as unreasonable. But, MMO is just such a vague descriptor. Massively Multiplayer Online  ... what exactly? OK MMO RPG makes sense, MMO by itself is just too vague. Also MMO doesn't work for Fallout 76 either. Massively Multiplayer? Nope. Online? Yes. Also RPG does seem to fit the game as well. So now what the hell do we call it?

    "People worry about kids playing with guns, or watching violent videos...
    That some sort of culture of violence will take them over.
    Nobody worries about kids listening to thousands - literally, thousands of songs
    About heartbreak, rejection...pain, misery and loss. Did I listen to pop music
    Because I was miserable... or was I miserable because I listened to pop music?"

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    Those were post-apoc RPGs, not survival games.

    A simple distinction is that your character can't starve to death in the Wasteland series and the original Fallout titles. Their "needs" on a survival level were not a thing.

    Unless you're reducing survival to "you can die", they don't really fall into the same genre. They are certainly the progenitors of the post-apoc settings we are most familiar with though.
    Mods
    Mods are third party. If you include them then there is a wide variety of mod-based survival games that have not been listed beyond that of Wasteland and Fallout, extending back into many early roguelikes.

    As far as features of release titles goes, I would cycle back to restate my previous points.

    The original Wasteland and Fallout titles are also not particularly heavily modded games, with only a few notable mods over the years and most of them hard to find. I'm not certain survival mods were ever made for them.
    Yet the entire survival genre was born out of Mods ;)
    Not quite, As pointed out by referencing Wurm, that title predates a lot of the modern trend in modding the likes of ARMA series for creating survival games. Given the original ARMA for example only came out 2006, same year as Wurm, that means Wurm was still launching as a survival game for modders to come later.

    In the case of modding older games, I can again find very little as far as modding of the original titles mentioned at all, with only a few standout mods, and none of them are themselves survival mods.

    Not saying Wurm invented the survival genre, but it is very much a codifier of it and there is little to no indication that the modding sphere was focused on any kind of survival games prior to it's release or even for a few years following it. Minecraft was one of the first popularizes of that genre. You have to skip forward to after 2009 with ARMA 2 for most known survival mods, and even the survival mods for Fallout 3 didn't come until ~a year later due to reliance on script extensions that were not there at release.

    And I definitely ain't placing a game with "dozens" of players into the MMO category.
    blueturtle13
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    edited June 2018
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    Those were post-apoc RPGs, not survival games.

    A simple distinction is that your character can't starve to death in the Wasteland series and the original Fallout titles. Their "needs" on a survival level were not a thing.

    Unless you're reducing survival to "you can die", they don't really fall into the same genre. They are certainly the progenitors of the post-apoc settings we are most familiar with though.
    Mods
    Mods are third party. If you include them then there is a wide variety of mod-based survival games that have not been listed beyond that of Wasteland and Fallout, extending back into many early roguelikes.

    As far as features of release titles goes, I would cycle back to restate my previous points.

    The original Wasteland and Fallout titles are also not particularly heavily modded games, with only a few notable mods over the years and most of them hard to find. I'm not certain survival mods were ever made for them.
    Yet the entire survival genre was born out of Mods ;)
    Not quite, As pointed out by referencing Wurm, that title predates a lot of the modern trend in modding the likes of ARMA series for creating survival games. Given the original ARMA for example only came out 2006, same year as Wurm, that means Wurm was still launching as a survival game for modders to come later.

    In the case of modding older games, I can again find very little as far as modding of the original titles mentioned at all, with only a few standout mods, and none of them are themselves survival mods.

    Not saying Wurm invented the survival genre, but it is very much a codifier of it and there is little to no indication that the modding sphere was focused on any kind of survival games prior to it's release or even for a few years following it. Minecraft was one of the first popularizes of that genre. You have to skip forward to after 2009 with ARMA 2 for most known survival mods, and even the survival mods for Fallout 3 didn't come until ~a year later due to reliance on script extensions that were not there at release.

    And I definitely ain't placing a game with "dozens" of players into the MMO category.
    So you never played Fallout 1? Because you could break a leg and die of radiation. Seems survival enough for way back then. 
    Also there were survival mods for NWN as well ;) 

    Plus there were a ton of survival games released years ago that came out before Wurm. Deus (not Deus Ex) Tail of the Sun, and Stranded, one that I actually loved. I do remember a couple of PS2 games as well like Raw Danger. 
    Post edited by blueturtle13 on
    Torval

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,780
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    Ok you're confusing me. Just what do you mean by "survival mechanics" Is it taking progressive damage from starvation and dehydration only and any other type of progressive damage (poison, radiation, disease, etc.) doesn't count?
    blueturtle13Torval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2018
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 
    On an honest level, no I have not.

    If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.

    An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
    Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.

    And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
    blueturtle13
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 
    On an honest level, no I have not.

    If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.

    An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
    Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.

    And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
    Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.

    Now you know...and knowing is half the battle ;) 
    Scorchien

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 
    On an honest level, no I have not.

    If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.

    An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
    Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.

    And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_game

    "People worry about kids playing with guns, or watching violent videos...
    That some sort of culture of violence will take them over.
    Nobody worries about kids listening to thousands - literally, thousands of songs
    About heartbreak, rejection...pain, misery and loss. Did I listen to pop music
    Because I was miserable... or was I miserable because I listened to pop music?"

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,842
    edited June 2018
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 
    On an honest level, no I have not.

    If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.

    An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
    Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.

    And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
    Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.

    Now you know...and knowing is half the battle ;) 
    I was about to add , Survival games roots are in rogue-likes Dwarf Fortress comes to mind as a fully fleshed out Survival game .. Unreal World is a good one as well as Wayward and many many others
    blueturtle13MisterZebubTorval
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Iselin said:
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    Ok you're confusing me. Just what do you mean by "survival mechanics" Is it taking progressive damage from starvation and dehydration only and any other type of progressive damage (poison, radiation, disease, etc.) doesn't count?
    In general, it's the consideration of what values are commonly tied to a character's life cycle.

    In the context of a post apocalyptic game, radiation can be a survival mechanic. But if that's not accompanied by other core survival mechanics like nutrition/hydration, etc then it's an incomplete system and not really a survival game. the radiation mechanic is not exclusively or specifically a feature of survival systems, as it can be used purely as a combat and environmental threat without touching on the survival genre.

    Same statement applies to poison, disease, etc. Those can and often are utilized as combat mechanics over survival mechanics.

    This shouldn't be hard to get. Having one feature similar to another genre does not make that game into that genre. It's a set of features that defines the given genre which needs to be present. There are ultimately permutations and not "all" features need be the same across games of the genres, but a good chunk of them retain common traits.

    Like we don't call the Sims a survival game even though it has food, bathroom, hygiene, etc. It's a simulation game and it's focus and feature-set expands elsewhere.

    If you want to claim a game is of a given genre, then it should at least have a reasonable display of features that are hallmark of that genre.
    Iselin
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 
    On an honest level, no I have not.

    If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.

    An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
    Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.

    And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
    Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.

    Now you know...and knowing is half the battle ;) 
    I was about to add , Survival games roots are in rogue-likes Dwarf Fortress comes to mind as a fully fleshed out Survival game .. Unreal World is a good one as well as Wayward and many many others
     Wayward is a really fun game!

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 
    On an honest level, no I have not.

    If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.

    An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
    Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.

    And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
    Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.

    Now you know...and knowing is half the battle ;) 
    I was about to add , Survival games roots are in rogue-likes Dwarf Fortress comes to mind as a fully fleshed out Survival game .. Unreal World is a good one as well as Wayward and many many others
    You can scroll back in out conversations to see I actually mentioned survival games having roots in roguelikes.

    Thanks for jumping on the bandwagon though, really displays who here actually knows "little to nothing".
    blueturtle13
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Limnic said:
    ...extending back into many early roguelikes.
    Man, when people dogpile without knowing what they are jumping into it gets really sad.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 
    On an honest level, no I have not.

    If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.

    An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
    Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.

    And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_game

    Why yes, that link does restate my point, though it does seem to lack much of the game's referenced in this discussion.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,395
    DMKano said:
    Not sure why people are so hung on the stupid definition - who  cares? MMO, not mmo, survival - whatever

    Will it have fun gameplay - all that matters to me.
    Definitions are important for many people. If you dont need them, then great for you, but I do not think caring about definitions is something so strange that you should not be able to get it.

    I prefer being able to identify and classify things based on their definition. If we do not stick to them, then what is the point of them existing in the first place.

    If someone tells me they like to listen to metal music, I know what they mean exactly because it is defined.

    Just like metal defines a music genre, MMORPG defines a game genre. One that many of us care about and one we do not appreciate being violated by calling games from other genres MMORPGs. This goes beyond whether a game is fun or not. 


    Really? So when they say they like metal music you can instantly discern which category of metal music they're into?


    Those are sub-genres and genre fusions for a reason. And yes, she was broad on her explanation, but you understand what she means, don't be a prick.

    You are just making her point even more valid: As we evolve, the need for better understanding of something makes we define even more, to restrict even more, what stays in which group and why.

    And if we'll start to measure dicks I can increase your list, and I'm sure there are people here that, if you want trouble, can make it double ;)
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,842
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Limnic said:
    If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
    So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded? 
    On an honest level, no I have not.

    If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.

    An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
    Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.

    And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
    Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.

    Now you know...and knowing is half the battle ;) 
    I was about to add , Survival games roots are in rogue-likes Dwarf Fortress comes to mind as a fully fleshed out Survival game .. Unreal World is a good one as well as Wayward and many many others
     Wayward is a really fun game!
    yea   , and it has come so far in the past 18 months since getting on Steam , it really helped push it along ..
    blueturtle13
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