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The woes of Korean developed games...

13

Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,076
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Option 4. Just remove the extra gold from players who took "advantage" of this situation and let them continue to play.

    After all, it is the Devs who left this in game, and 4 to 5 silver isn't all that obvious of an exploit to warrant a permaban.

    Outright cheats such as botting are in a far more serious category in my opinion.


    Or my personal choice:

    Option 5. Ban Asian publishers from releasing games in the west until they learn how to fix this shit.
    Says the guy who argues for an open hands off Steam store. So hands off when it works for you and protectionist bans, when it works for you. That doesn't seem consistent especially given the specious nature of your ban motivation.
    Tree of Savior demonstrates that you can have it both ways:  the English-language version is only available through Steam.
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 8,946
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Where's our new western AAA MMOs?
    Aside from FFXI, FFXIV and Lineage, what other AAA MMOs have we seen from the east? Before you answer, I myself would consider ArcheAge as a AAA MMO, but the management has turned it into anything but.
    I think Tera is a good example of a well made Korean MMO.  

    Tera, Blade And Soul, Aion, Lineage 2, Black Desert and ArcheAge are all high quality eastern mmos.

    The next wave in 2019 will be Accent Infinite Realm, Lost Ark, Astellia Online and The Lineage ( Project TL ). 

    Thats not even counting games coming from China. ;)

    In fact, I would chalk that up with the rest of the ones I consider massive failures.


    Stopped reading right there.

    What you consider does not matter. ;)
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,560
    edited June 2018
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Where's our new western AAA MMOs?
    Aside from FFXI, FFXIV and Lineage, what other AAA MMOs have we seen from the east? Before you answer, I myself would consider ArcheAge as a AAA MMO, but the management has turned it into anything but.
    I think Tera is a good example of a well made Korean MMO.  

    Tera, Blade And Soul, Aion, Lineage 2, Black Desert and ArcheAge are all high quality eastern mmos.

    The next wave in 2019 will be Accent Infinite Realm, Lost Ark, Astellia Online and The Lineage ( Project TL ). 

    Thats not even counting games coming from China. ;)

    In fact, I would chalk that up with the rest of the ones I consider massive failures.


    Stopped reading right there.

    What you consider does not matter. ;)
    You're right, the game's populations do though which coincidentally mimics what I consider failure. On a good day, all the games I've listed as failures might have a grand total of 1 million players, most of which reside in BDO.

    On second thought, they aren't failures, because it's obviously a niche market. Therefor, they simply don't qualify as AAA MMOs.

  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 8,946
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Where's our new western AAA MMOs?
    Aside from FFXI, FFXIV and Lineage, what other AAA MMOs have we seen from the east? Before you answer, I myself would consider ArcheAge as a AAA MMO, but the management has turned it into anything but.
    I think Tera is a good example of a well made Korean MMO.  

    Tera, Blade And Soul, Aion, Lineage 2, Black Desert and ArcheAge are all high quality eastern mmos.

    The next wave in 2019 will be Accent Infinite Realm, Lost Ark, Astellia Online and The Lineage ( Project TL ). 

    Thats not even counting games coming from China. ;)

    In fact, I would chalk that up with the rest of the ones I consider massive failures.


    Stopped reading right there.

    What you consider does not matter. ;)
    You're right, the game's populations do though which coincidentally mimics what I consider failure. On a good day, all the games I've listed as failures might have a grand total of 1 million players, most of which reside in BDO.

    Source?
    blueturtle13Panther2103
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    Quizzical said:
    Sephiroso said:
    Quizzical said:
    The Korean-made games that I've liked (mainly Elsword and Tree of Savior) don't fit your description at all.  I wasn't aware of any cheating or hacking in those games at all, and I played them for quite a few months each.  Tree of Savior did have quite a problem with botting, but I don't recall ever seeing any bots in Elsword at all, in spite of having played 11 characters all the way up to the then-level cap of 85.

    While I don't doubt that there have been several Korean-made games that had similar problems, it's inaccurate to claim that everything ever made in South Korea is identical.
    Isn't Elsword very similar to an ARPG in that you mostly play in your own maps and never with other people unless you choose to? So typically you wouldn't really be able to see any other botters unless they were retarded enough to join a group with randoms?

    Also ToS definitely had tons of cheating(if you count exploits as cheating) and hacking and continues to. Here's a video someone took as evidence(second time they tried to get this same person reported for using the same hacked skills)


    Tree of Savior certainly has a lot of botters.  Certain parts of certain maps that are known to have mobs respawn very fast are overrun with archer bots.  But I never saw any obvious hacking other than that, nor rumors of it in chat.  And the game is basically purely PVE, so even if there were hacking, it wouldn't necessarily affect me.

    As I see it, the great difference is not one of "there is cheating" versus "there is no cheating".  Rather, the difference is "cheating is common enough that you can't ignore it and it wrecks the game" versus "cheating is rare enough to be inconsequential and not affect you".
    The video i linked was straight up hacked skills though. There's plenty of actual hacking going on. Even just taking a look at ToS's forums shows quite a lot of posts about hackers(though admittedly nowhere near as much as botters). I mean, there's a lot of hacking going on. Especially when it comes to picking up silver. Apparently in the matter of days someone managed to pick up over a billion silver. Stuff like that has a direct impact on players through the marketplace allowing cheaters to snag up rare equipment/etc and post them completely overpriced if they wanted to controlling the market.
    blueturtle13MrMelGibson

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    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,076
    Sephiroso said:
    Quizzical said:
    Sephiroso said:
    Quizzical said:
    The Korean-made games that I've liked (mainly Elsword and Tree of Savior) don't fit your description at all.  I wasn't aware of any cheating or hacking in those games at all, and I played them for quite a few months each.  Tree of Savior did have quite a problem with botting, but I don't recall ever seeing any bots in Elsword at all, in spite of having played 11 characters all the way up to the then-level cap of 85.

    While I don't doubt that there have been several Korean-made games that had similar problems, it's inaccurate to claim that everything ever made in South Korea is identical.
    Isn't Elsword very similar to an ARPG in that you mostly play in your own maps and never with other people unless you choose to? So typically you wouldn't really be able to see any other botters unless they were retarded enough to join a group with randoms?

    Also ToS definitely had tons of cheating(if you count exploits as cheating) and hacking and continues to. Here's a video someone took as evidence(second time they tried to get this same person reported for using the same hacked skills)


    Tree of Savior certainly has a lot of botters.  Certain parts of certain maps that are known to have mobs respawn very fast are overrun with archer bots.  But I never saw any obvious hacking other than that, nor rumors of it in chat.  And the game is basically purely PVE, so even if there were hacking, it wouldn't necessarily affect me.

    As I see it, the great difference is not one of "there is cheating" versus "there is no cheating".  Rather, the difference is "cheating is common enough that you can't ignore it and it wrecks the game" versus "cheating is rare enough to be inconsequential and not affect you".
    The video i linked was straight up hacked skills though. There's plenty of actual hacking going on. Even just taking a look at ToS's forums shows quite a lot of posts about hackers(though admittedly nowhere near as much as botters). I mean, there's a lot of hacking going on. Especially when it comes to picking up silver. Apparently in the matter of days someone managed to pick up over a billion silver. Stuff like that has a direct impact on players through the marketplace allowing cheaters to snag up rare equipment/etc and post them completely overpriced if they wanted to controlling the market.
    It's possible that something has changed since I quit.  Maybe someone found a duping bug more recently or something.  But I'm telling you that I played the game for most of a year and never saw any signs of hacking (apart from botting), whether in the in-game chat, on forums, or suspicious prices on the marketplace, much less seeing players who were obviously hacking.
    TorvalMrMelGibson
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,216
    Keller said:
    On a side note; some western mmorpgs had the same flaws; duping, teleporting, xp, character speed, etc. 

    Darkfall
    Mortal Online
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    Rift Online
    Shadowbane
    Ultima Online
    Anarchy Online


    (Why call out Asian developers? )

    Just perma ban exploits and hacks. Accidental incidents that only happened once on an account with minor impact are cool by me. All with good communication off course. Don't go full Rockstar on your customers. Plus go after the makers and buyers of the (commercial) hacks. Guantanamo Bay hasn't been closed and I bet in Siberia they also can use an extra pair of hands.


    Why indeed? Because racism runs rampant on these boards and no one does much about it.

    All games have issues, as do all developers and publishers, it's just fashionable right now to attack the Korean dev's.

    Anyone remember Lineage or Lineage 2? Yeah, they must be doing something right now and then. There are more examples, but I will stop there.
    blueturtle13TorvalMrMelGibson

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,291
    Hatefull said:
    Keller said:
    On a side note; some western mmorpgs had the same flaws; duping, teleporting, xp, character speed, etc. 

    Darkfall
    Mortal Online
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    Rift Online
    Shadowbane
    Ultima Online
    Anarchy Online


    (Why call out Asian developers? )

    Just perma ban exploits and hacks. Accidental incidents that only happened once on an account with minor impact are cool by me. All with good communication off course. Don't go full Rockstar on your customers. Plus go after the makers and buyers of the (commercial) hacks. Guantanamo Bay hasn't been closed and I bet in Siberia they also can use an extra pair of hands.


    Why indeed? Because racism runs rampant on these boards and no one does much about it.

    All games have issues, as do all developers and publishers, it's just fashionable right now to attack the Korean dev's.

    Anyone remember Lineage or Lineage 2? Yeah, they must be doing something right now and then. There are more examples, but I will stop there.
    I do recall L1 and L2, played them both back in the day

    No issue in L1, but L2 was plagued with gold farmers and botters, never observed a lot of hackers.

    But when I moved to DAOC, tons of radar hackers for sure, probably some others but less noticable. 



    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,216
    Kyleran said:
    Hatefull said:
    Keller said:
    On a side note; some western mmorpgs had the same flaws; duping, teleporting, xp, character speed, etc. 

    Darkfall
    Mortal Online
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    Rift Online
    Shadowbane
    Ultima Online
    Anarchy Online


    (Why call out Asian developers? )

    Just perma ban exploits and hacks. Accidental incidents that only happened once on an account with minor impact are cool by me. All with good communication off course. Don't go full Rockstar on your customers. Plus go after the makers and buyers of the (commercial) hacks. Guantanamo Bay hasn't been closed and I bet in Siberia they also can use an extra pair of hands.


    Why indeed? Because racism runs rampant on these boards and no one does much about it.

    All games have issues, as do all developers and publishers, it's just fashionable right now to attack the Korean dev's.

    Anyone remember Lineage or Lineage 2? Yeah, they must be doing something right now and then. There are more examples, but I will stop there.
    I do recall L1 and L2, played them both back in the day

    No issue in L1, but L2 was plagued with gold farmers and botters, never observed a lot of hackers.

    But when I moved to DAOC, tons of radar hackers for sure, probably some others but less noticable. 



    I was hoping someone of your intelligence and experience would respond.

    I remember L2 very well as it was one of the first games I played. I also remember the up in arms verbal wars that took place when WoW, EQ2, and a slew of other games were instanced as people feared the bot populations would increase. And they did, they exploded across those games as well as many others. One thing  I do not remember from L2's launch was game crashes, server waits, game breaking bugs or anything like that. I remember those in WoW...and EQ2, as well as a slew of other games that have released since then. Who was it that designed and produced Lineage 2....oh yeah NCSoft. A Korean developer.

    The overarching point here is, Exploits, bots, bad design, bugs, and anything else you want to say negative about gaming, in general, is not specific to a single locale of development but rather the genre as a whole and it is a mistake to try to pin this on X countries developers, when it is a (gaming) worldwide issue. It is naive and wrong in fact.

    I am glad you brought up bots, I was going to speak purely to exploits and hacks, but that is a good relevant point as well.

    To be clear, I am not speaking to strictly to you above @Kyleran but to the OP's original assertion that Korean Developers are in some way less adept than any other developer.
    MrMelGibson

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,210
    edited June 2018
    Hatefull said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hatefull said:
    Keller said:
    On a side note; some western mmorpgs had the same flaws; duping, teleporting, xp, character speed, etc. 

    Darkfall
    Mortal Online
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    Rift Online
    Shadowbane
    Ultima Online
    Anarchy Online


    (Why call out Asian developers? )

    Just perma ban exploits and hacks. Accidental incidents that only happened once on an account with minor impact are cool by me. All with good communication off course. Don't go full Rockstar on your customers. Plus go after the makers and buyers of the (commercial) hacks. Guantanamo Bay hasn't been closed and I bet in Siberia they also can use an extra pair of hands.


    Why indeed? Because racism runs rampant on these boards and no one does much about it.

    All games have issues, as do all developers and publishers, it's just fashionable right now to attack the Korean dev's.

    Anyone remember Lineage or Lineage 2? Yeah, they must be doing something right now and then. There are more examples, but I will stop there.
    I do recall L1 and L2, played them both back in the day

    No issue in L1, but L2 was plagued with gold farmers and botters, never observed a lot of hackers.

    But when I moved to DAOC, tons of radar hackers for sure, probably some others but less noticable. 



    I was hoping someone of your intelligence and experience would respond.

    I remember L2 very well as it was one of the first games I played. I also remember the up in arms verbal wars that took place when WoW, EQ2, and a slew of other games were instanced as people feared the bot populations would increase. And they did, they exploded across those games as well as many others. One thing  I do not remember from L2's launch was game crashes, server waits, game breaking bugs or anything like that. I remember those in WoW...and EQ2, as well as a slew of other games that have released since then. Who was it that designed and produced Lineage 2....oh yeah NCSoft. A Korean developer.

    The overarching point here is, Exploits, bots, bad design, bugs, and anything else you want to say negative about gaming, in general, is not specific to a single locale of development but rather the genre as a whole and it is a mistake to try to pin this on X countries developers, when it is a (gaming) worldwide issue. It is naive and wrong in fact.

    I am glad you brought up bots, I was going to speak purely to exploits and hacks, but that is a good relevant point as well.

    To be clear, I am not speaking to strictly to you above @Kyleran but to the OP's original assertion that Korean Developers are in some way less adept than any other developer.
    Not many Western games to have a bone to pick with not recently anyway and Korean developers are easy targets it would seem. They are not going to pop up here like Brad McQuaid or Raph Koster .

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,560
    Hatefull said:
    Keller said:
    On a side note; some western mmorpgs had the same flaws; duping, teleporting, xp, character speed, etc. 

    Darkfall
    Mortal Online
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    Rift Online
    Shadowbane
    Ultima Online
    Anarchy Online


    (Why call out Asian developers? )

    Just perma ban exploits and hacks. Accidental incidents that only happened once on an account with minor impact are cool by me. All with good communication off course. Don't go full Rockstar on your customers. Plus go after the makers and buyers of the (commercial) hacks. Guantanamo Bay hasn't been closed and I bet in Siberia they also can use an extra pair of hands.


    Why indeed? Because racism runs rampant on these boards and no one does much about it.

    All games have issues, as do all developers and publishers, it's just fashionable right now to attack the Korean dev's.

    Anyone remember Lineage or Lineage 2? Yeah, they must be doing something right now and then. There are more examples, but I will stop there.
    As a lot of Asian developer fans have enjoyed pointing out. Most recent MMOs have all been eastern production. Not that many mainstream MMOs since ArcheAge have been produced in the west. So, since 2014, it's been nothing but one Asian developed disaster after another. The reason, as I stated before, that it isn't as huge of a problem in western MMOs is because they aren't all PvP focused MMOs. Cheating is far less detrimental in a PvE focused game. So obviously very few people are even concerned about it.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,560
    edited June 2018
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Where's our new western AAA MMOs?
    Aside from FFXI, FFXIV and Lineage, what other AAA MMOs have we seen from the east? Before you answer, I myself would consider ArcheAge as a AAA MMO, but the management has turned it into anything but.
    I think Tera is a good example of a well made Korean MMO.  

    Tera, Blade And Soul, Aion, Lineage 2, Black Desert and ArcheAge are all high quality eastern mmos.

    The next wave in 2019 will be Accent Infinite Realm, Lost Ark, Astellia Online and The Lineage ( Project TL ). 

    Thats not even counting games coming from China. ;)

    In fact, I would chalk that up with the rest of the ones I consider massive failures.


    Stopped reading right there.

    What you consider does not matter. ;)
    You're right, the game's populations do though which coincidentally mimics what I consider failure. On a good day, all the games I've listed as failures might have a grand total of 1 million players, most of which reside in BDO.

    Source?
    Personal experience of staring at server loads during my gaming sessions. One can imagine that at most a server can handle 5,000 to maybe 10,000 concurrent players on a server, but most likely 5,000. BDO still has the most servers out of all the games I listed and it's lucky to be pushing 200,000 to 300,000 active, not necessarily concurrent players. Thats if their servers have more than 5000 players, which I know is safe to say, they do not.
    blueturtle13MikehaMrMelGibson

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,076
    edited June 2018
    Hatefull said:
    Keller said:
    On a side note; some western mmorpgs had the same flaws; duping, teleporting, xp, character speed, etc. 

    Darkfall
    Mortal Online
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    Rift Online
    Shadowbane
    Ultima Online
    Anarchy Online


    (Why call out Asian developers? )

    Just perma ban exploits and hacks. Accidental incidents that only happened once on an account with minor impact are cool by me. All with good communication off course. Don't go full Rockstar on your customers. Plus go after the makers and buyers of the (commercial) hacks. Guantanamo Bay hasn't been closed and I bet in Siberia they also can use an extra pair of hands.


    Why indeed? Because racism runs rampant on these boards and no one does much about it.

    All games have issues, as do all developers and publishers, it's just fashionable right now to attack the Korean dev's.

    Anyone remember Lineage or Lineage 2? Yeah, they must be doing something right now and then. There are more examples, but I will stop there.
    Being more likely to enjoy games developed in one country than in another is not a form of racism.  If nothing else, whether you enjoy a game and which country it was developed in are both correlated with the game's genre.  There can also be problems with a game that might be fine in its original language, but the translation into yours is terrible.

    Lineage and Lineage 2 were tremendously popular in South Korea, but never caught on in the US.
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,019
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Option 4. Just remove the extra gold from players who took "advantage" of this situation and let them continue to play.

    After all, it is the Devs who left this in game, and 4 to 5 silver isn't all that obvious of an exploit to warrant a permaban.

    Outright cheats such as botting are in a far more serious category in my opinion.


    Or my personal choice:

    Option 5. Ban Asian publishers from releasing games in the west until they learn how to fix this shit.
    Says the guy who argues for an open hands off Steam store. So hands off when it works for you and protectionist bans, when it works for you. That doesn't seem consistent especially given the specious nature of your ban motivation.
    Not a proponent of the hands off Steam store, just sick of people using disingenuous, outrageous, worst case scenario examples to justify why its a bad idea, when the current shit state of Steam game quality should be enough to speak for itself.

    Also J. J. Abrams Star Trek movies suck. Neener neener neener. That is all. B)
    Okay MISTER! That earned you a WTF. :tongue: You take back the neeners and admit he's probably also the saving grace of the Star Wars franchise that is trying harder than hell to kill itself.
    LOL! Actually I enjoyed the Trek films, they had some flaws but on the whole were entertaining. The Star Wars shit though, bleh those do nothing for me at all.
    When you decided to make the move from a venerated film trilogy which has an enormous fan base decades after the films launched, to a two films a year marketing franchise you are going to get humongous issues.
    I'll add further, when you try to move the franchise further along, but seem to be too afraid to avoid cleaving to the original trilogy for nostalgic reasons, but still manage to shit all over said original trilogy whilst still using them too cement your anemic "what happens next, yet is just more of the same shit we've already seen" "NEW" story because you have no bastard clue of what direction you want the franchise to go, but you still bull right along because you have to justify that insane amount of money you spent to secure a franchise whose stellar populartiy you so painfully obviously do not understand, and frankly never will.
    I don't know enough to comment on SW story and lore, but my understanding from friends who are big fans is that many novels, cartoons(?) and comics have done a decent job of taking the story from the original trilogy forward. But the films seem hesitant and or going over the same ground.
    SW movies are just fun and exciting movies.  Just like the Marvel movies.  The amount of whiny pussies who think they're supposed to be some Oscar winning movies is amusing as much as it is confounding.  No other franchise has this level of saltiness from those who didn't get the exact stories they were expecting.  Not to mention there is no pleasing some of the fanbase.  This was the exact same scenario when the prequels came out.  People just didn't whine as much online as today.
    Iselinblueturtle13Torval
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,030
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Option 4. Just remove the extra gold from players who took "advantage" of this situation and let them continue to play.

    After all, it is the Devs who left this in game, and 4 to 5 silver isn't all that obvious of an exploit to warrant a permaban.

    Outright cheats such as botting are in a far more serious category in my opinion.


    Or my personal choice:

    Option 5. Ban Asian publishers from releasing games in the west until they learn how to fix this shit.
    Says the guy who argues for an open hands off Steam store. So hands off when it works for you and protectionist bans, when it works for you. That doesn't seem consistent especially given the specious nature of your ban motivation.
    Not a proponent of the hands off Steam store, just sick of people using disingenuous, outrageous, worst case scenario examples to justify why its a bad idea, when the current shit state of Steam game quality should be enough to speak for itself.

    Also J. J. Abrams Star Trek movies suck. Neener neener neener. That is all. B)
    Okay MISTER! That earned you a WTF. :tongue: You take back the neeners and admit he's probably also the saving grace of the Star Wars franchise that is trying harder than hell to kill itself.
    LOL! Actually I enjoyed the Trek films, they had some flaws but on the whole were entertaining. The Star Wars shit though, bleh those do nothing for me at all.
    When you decided to make the move from a venerated film trilogy which has an enormous fan base decades after the films launched, to a two films a year marketing franchise you are going to get humongous issues.
    I'll add further, when you try to move the franchise further along, but seem to be too afraid to avoid cleaving to the original trilogy for nostalgic reasons, but still manage to shit all over said original trilogy whilst still using them too cement your anemic "what happens next, yet is just more of the same shit we've already seen" "NEW" story because you have no bastard clue of what direction you want the franchise to go, but you still bull right along because you have to justify that insane amount of money you spent to secure a franchise whose stellar populartiy you so painfully obviously do not understand, and frankly never will.
    I don't know enough to comment on SW story and lore, but my understanding from friends who are big fans is that many novels, cartoons(?) and comics have done a decent job of taking the story from the original trilogy forward. But the films seem hesitant and or going over the same ground.
    SW movies are just fun and exciting movies.  Just like the Marvel movies.  The amount of whiny pussies who think they're supposed to be some Oscar winning movies is amusing as much as it is confounding.  No other franchise has this level of saltiness from those who didn't get the exact stories they were expecting.  Not to mention there is no pleasing some of the fanbase.  This was the exact same scenario when the prequels came out.  People just didn't whine as much online as today.
    I always laugh when I see people expecting high art from Star Trek or SW movies. They are the stereotypical space opera "B" movies. Throwing large budgets and state of the art GFX at them doesn't all of a sudden make them "A" movies.

    They're meant to be enjoyed with your intellect half parked while eating large quantities of pop corn.
    MrMelGibsonblueturtle13Torval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,019
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Where's our new western AAA MMOs?
    Aside from FFXI, FFXIV and Lineage, what other AAA MMOs have we seen from the east? Before you answer, I myself would consider ArcheAge as a AAA MMO, but the management has turned it into anything but.
    I think Tera is a good example of a well made Korean MMO.  

    Tera, Blade And Soul, Aion, Lineage 2, Black Desert and ArcheAge are all high quality eastern mmos.

    The next wave in 2019 will be Accent Infinite Realm, Lost Ark, Astellia Online and The Lineage ( Project TL ). 

    Thats not even counting games coming from China. ;)

    In fact, I would chalk that up with the rest of the ones I consider massive failures.


    Stopped reading right there.

    What you consider does not matter. ;)
    You're right, the game's populations do though which coincidentally mimics what I consider failure. On a good day, all the games I've listed as failures might have a grand total of 1 million players, most of which reside in BDO.

    Source?
    Personal experience of staring at server loads during my gaming sessions. One can imagine that at most a server can handle 5,000 to maybe 10,000 concurrent players on a server, but most likely 5,000. BDO still has the most servers out of all the games I listed and it's lucky to be pushing 200,000 to 300,000 active, not necessarily concurrent players. Thats if their servers have more than 5000 players, which I know is safe to say, they do not.
    Aka I pulled the information out of my ass.  
    kitaradblueturtle13Torval
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,061
    Hatefull said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hatefull said:
    Keller said:
    On a side note; some western mmorpgs had the same flaws; duping, teleporting, xp, character speed, etc. 

    Darkfall
    Mortal Online
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    Rift Online
    Shadowbane
    Ultima Online
    Anarchy Online


    (Why call out Asian developers? )

    Just perma ban exploits and hacks. Accidental incidents that only happened once on an account with minor impact are cool by me. All with good communication off course. Don't go full Rockstar on your customers. Plus go after the makers and buyers of the (commercial) hacks. Guantanamo Bay hasn't been closed and I bet in Siberia they also can use an extra pair of hands.


    Why indeed? Because racism runs rampant on these boards and no one does much about it.

    All games have issues, as do all developers and publishers, it's just fashionable right now to attack the Korean dev's.

    Anyone remember Lineage or Lineage 2? Yeah, they must be doing something right now and then. There are more examples, but I will stop there.
    I do recall L1 and L2, played them both back in the day

    No issue in L1, but L2 was plagued with gold farmers and botters, never observed a lot of hackers.

    But when I moved to DAOC, tons of radar hackers for sure, probably some others but less noticable. 



    I was hoping someone of your intelligence and experience would respond.

    I remember L2 very well as it was one of the first games I played. I also remember the up in arms verbal wars that took place when WoW, EQ2, and a slew of other games were instanced as people feared the bot populations would increase. And they did, they exploded across those games as well as many others. One thing  I do not remember from L2's launch was game crashes, server waits, game breaking bugs or anything like that. I remember those in WoW...and EQ2, as well as a slew of other games that have released since then. Who was it that designed and produced Lineage 2....oh yeah NCSoft. A Korean developer.

    The overarching point here is, Exploits, bots, bad design, bugs, and anything else you want to say negative about gaming, in general, is not specific to a single locale of development but rather the genre as a whole and it is a mistake to try to pin this on X countries developers, when it is a (gaming) worldwide issue. It is naive and wrong in fact.

    I am glad you brought up bots, I was going to speak purely to exploits and hacks, but that is a good relevant point as well.

    To be clear, I am not speaking to strictly to you above @Kyleran but to the OP's original assertion that Korean Developers are in some way less adept than any other developer.
    Korean developers are making games for their own different market, with only an occasional eye on them reaching further than their own market. So it would be surprising if they were alike to western MMOs in every way and it is quite natural that those brought up on western MMOs feel they are lacking in some way.

    The fact that so many from the west enjoy eastern MMOs anyway is a testament to the fact that they do produce quality MMOs. But personally I would say only FF and BDO fit what I like enough to get into them. They also have an gaming industry that produces tons of poor quality clones, it must be what their market wants or they would not do so.

    One thing I do find odd is when people question the artwork particularly the Euro-Asian look of the characters. I guess being an anime fan makes that question rather passé, having different kinds of graphics in MMO's is a boon. If that is an issue for you I can but recommend BDO, with its beautiful and very European looking cities and landscape perhaps that will ease you in gently. :)

    blueturtle13Torval

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,560
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Where's our new western AAA MMOs?
    Aside from FFXI, FFXIV and Lineage, what other AAA MMOs have we seen from the east? Before you answer, I myself would consider ArcheAge as a AAA MMO, but the management has turned it into anything but.
    I think Tera is a good example of a well made Korean MMO.  

    Tera, Blade And Soul, Aion, Lineage 2, Black Desert and ArcheAge are all high quality eastern mmos.

    The next wave in 2019 will be Accent Infinite Realm, Lost Ark, Astellia Online and The Lineage ( Project TL ). 

    Thats not even counting games coming from China. ;)

    In fact, I would chalk that up with the rest of the ones I consider massive failures.


    Stopped reading right there.

    What you consider does not matter. ;)
    You're right, the game's populations do though which coincidentally mimics what I consider failure. On a good day, all the games I've listed as failures might have a grand total of 1 million players, most of which reside in BDO.

    Source?
    Personal experience of staring at server loads during my gaming sessions. One can imagine that at most a server can handle 5,000 to maybe 10,000 concurrent players on a server, but most likely 5,000. BDO still has the most servers out of all the games I listed and it's lucky to be pushing 200,000 to 300,000 active, not necessarily concurrent players. Thats if their servers have more than 5000 players, which I know is safe to say, they do not.
    Aka I pulled the information out of my ass.  
    No more then assuming it's incorrect. Blame developers for not releasing the information, forcing speculation. Confidence is key in business. Start hiding stuff, you make yourself look guilty for good reason.
    blueturtle13MrMelGibson

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,857
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Mikeha said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Where's our new western AAA MMOs?
    Aside from FFXI, FFXIV and Lineage, what other AAA MMOs have we seen from the east? Before you answer, I myself would consider ArcheAge as a AAA MMO, but the management has turned it into anything but.
    I think Tera is a good example of a well made Korean MMO.  

    Tera, Blade And Soul, Aion, Lineage 2, Black Desert and ArcheAge are all high quality eastern mmos.

    The next wave in 2019 will be Accent Infinite Realm, Lost Ark, Astellia Online and The Lineage ( Project TL ). 

    Thats not even counting games coming from China. ;)

    In fact, I would chalk that up with the rest of the ones I consider massive failures.


    Stopped reading right there.

    What you consider does not matter. ;)
    You're right, the game's populations do though which coincidentally mimics what I consider failure. On a good day, all the games I've listed as failures might have a grand total of 1 million players, most of which reside in BDO.

    Source?
    Personal experience of staring at server loads during my gaming sessions. One can imagine that at most a server can handle 5,000 to maybe 10,000 concurrent players on a server, but most likely 5,000. BDO still has the most servers out of all the games I listed and it's lucky to be pushing 200,000 to 300,000 active, not necessarily concurrent players. Thats if their servers have more than 5000 players, which I know is safe to say, they do not.
    So purely anecdotal then.  In other words: based on nothing.
    blueturtle13kitaradMrMelGibsonTorval
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 914
    Korean followed by chinese are the only developers still investing in multi million budget AAA MMOs. Western devs gave up on it a long time ago.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,560
    Kabulozo said:
    Korean followed by chinese are the only developers still investing in multi million budget AAA MMOs. Western devs gave up on it a long time ago.
    Eastern developers aside from the creators of FFXIV have always invested less into MMO development. Do not claim eastern developers are investing tremendous amounts of money into their games because it is simply not true. In fact, World of Warcraft was estimated at costing around $63 million to make and it's development was over a decade ago. Bless Online spent $61 million and trust me when I say, it reflects it.

    It's true, western developers haven't put anything out in a very long time. I just don't see eastern developers putting out the same quality except for FFXI and FFXIV. Which is precisely the problem. They are making cheap games for quick turnover. While I digress that ArchAge and even Black Desert Online are both AAA in quality, they definitely are not AAA in management. Akin to that of Electronic Arts, who may still publish quality games, but no one will touch them with a 10 foot pole because their apparent business tactics leave much to be desired.

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,827
    Rhoklaw said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Korean followed by chinese are the only developers still investing in multi million budget AAA MMOs. Western devs gave up on it a long time ago.


    It's true, western developers haven't put anything out in a very long time. I just don't see eastern developers putting out the same quality except for FFXI and FFXIV.
    Not putting out the same quality as what?
    MrMelGibsonMikehaTorval

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  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 914
    edited June 2018
    Rhoklaw said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Korean followed by chinese are the only developers still investing in multi million budget AAA MMOs. Western devs gave up on it a long time ago.
    Eastern developers aside from the creators of FFXIV have always invested less into MMO development. Do not claim eastern developers are investing tremendous amounts of money into their games because it is simply not true. In fact, World of Warcraft was estimated at costing around $63 million to make and it's development was over a decade ago. Bless Online spent $61 million and trust me when I say, it reflects it.

    It's true, western developers haven't put anything out in a very long time. I just don't see eastern developers putting out the same quality except for FFXI and FFXIV. Which is precisely the problem. They are making cheap games for quick turnover. While I digress that ArchAge and even Black Desert Online are both AAA in quality, they definitely are not AAA in management. Akin to that of Electronic Arts, who may still publish quality games, but no one will touch them with a 10 foot pole because their apparent business tactics leave much to be desired.
    Lineage Eternal budget was $50 million 10 years ago, and now is around $100 million when they rebooted as Project TL.

    No western dev is putting a muti dozen million dollar in an MMO developrment today besides Blizzard with WoW and maybe Arena net without any crowd funding.
    MikehaTorvalMrMelGibson
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,760
    Iselin said:
    SW movies are just fun and exciting movies.  Just like the Marvel movies.  The amount of whiny pussies who think they're supposed to be some Oscar winning movies is amusing as much as it is confounding.  No other franchise has this level of saltiness from those who didn't get the exact stories they were expecting.  Not to mention there is no pleasing some of the fanbase.  This was the exact same scenario when the prequels came out.  People just didn't whine as much online as today.
    I always laugh when I see people expecting high art from Star Trek or SW movies. They are the stereotypical space opera "B" movies. Throwing large budgets and state of the art GFX at them doesn't all of a sudden make them "A" movies.

    They're meant to be enjoyed with your intellect half parked while eating large quantities of pop corn.
    That's why I think Abrams has been great for both franchises. He made Star Trek fun again. ST was fun when I was a kid. It was social commentary, but it was also fun and fantastic. It started to feel stagnant and it was taking itself too seriously.

    I don't think Lucas knew where he wanted to take Star Wars after Jedi. There was a lot of demand (and pressure) to explain the events leading up to the original trilogy. He should have let the authors do that for him and chose which stories were canon and made movies from them. He made a mess of his own universe. It will take a while for someone with vision to fix that. Marvel has vision and context outside the movies. Star Wars doesn't anymore since they ditched the extended universe. I think it's suffering as a result. It feels all over the place.
    KickaxeIselinMrMelGibsonScot
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,961
    edited June 2018
    Korean developers are best at creating combat systems, go figure why, I like what we seen with BDO for example, and the combat of Lost Ark as well.

    Korean MMO developers are the best at it, companies like NcSoft have brought us several of the biggest titles on MMO gaming.

    And you depend on them really, the MMO genre will die without them, upcoming titles like Project TL, or Lost Ark, are all large-scale mainstream quality titles that really no western dev shows able to compete with the amount of content and polish those games tend to have.

    In fact, I would blame more the Western publishers for ruining great games with the most frustrating business strategies, such as Archeage.
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