My Thoughts on Premium (P2W vs. Convenience)

Izkimar

I just now read the Q&A update this morning, and I decided to record my thoughts as I enjoyed some coffee! Unfortunately I had to record the damn thing twice, as somehow Obs switched from my Yeti to default.

So what did we learn with the update?

Major:

• 20% More Hunting Experience with Premium
• 20% More Dungeon Points with Premium

This contradicts their statement of only "convenience" coming with Premium. Now is it gamebreaking, or super P2W? No.

Is it unprecedented even in Western games? No.

However, this will allow players to access power faster. You can stack this with an EXP pet, which an Epic pet can get you 150% increased EXP if the RNG gods love you. Then you will have a slight advantage over the non-premium crowd as you rush to cap, gaining your SP Levels "Alternate Advancement", leveling up your guild, and rushing towards the territory land grab.

Again, I am not saying this is hard P2W, but at the same time if you are a super competitive player you will want to have this. And I think it was poor word choice on their point to stress "convenience", they sort of backed themselves into a corner there.

Minor:

• Reduced repair fee by 30%
• Reduce Wyvern usage fee by 50%
• Pickaxe/Gathering Bag now infinite
• 20% more hunting gold bonus
• 5 more items can be listed on AH
• Market Tax Rate reduced by 10%

Repair fee's add up. Wyvern is expensive for a new player to fly around the world. Pickaxes and gathering bags cost money, take up bag space, and you might even have oh shit moments where you forget to buy. This costs you in the Turbans "Gathering Instance" that you find which has every resource in the game, including a Gold Ore that has a chance to have a Gold Ingot. Gold Ingots sell for 1 gold.

There is something around a 10 item cap on the AH for what you can list, so 5 more allows you to post more obviously. Then you get the reduced market tax rate as well. Then slap on the fact that you get 20% more gold from hunting and all of this starts to add up.

My thoughts are that you will definitely notice these effects on your gold. Individually nothing is too crazy, but all together they will definitely add up.

Again, is this hard P2W? No, probably not. But I can see how some might consider it so. It will definitely help you in optimizing your character faster.

Personal Thoughts: It could have been worse, Bless JP had an atrocious cash shop that was super P2W. So I think that we did still dodge a bullet with this one. But I would still consider this soft-soft-soft P2W at the worst. I can see how some would argue this is still just convenience, just as I can see how some would label it direct P2W. I think they chose poor words in describing the cash shop as only Convenience, and sort of backed themselves into a corner.

Assassin Timeline: I thought this was an interesting part of the update. If you see that they plan to update the game once a month, and have big updates every 3 months. They said the Assassin will be added in the first big update, so it seems we will be getting it 3 months after EA starts. Also they plan to not have any paid DLC for the big content updates that are up ahead, which I think is a good choice.

Octagon7711

I've never seen a company say, yes we are selling pay2win.  Everyone says it's not and gives there reasoning. I've said, it's not really P2W it's more like pay to dominate faster.  

Izkimar

Yeah which sort of sounds like you agree with my soft-soft-soft-soft p2w classification lol. 

Kajidourden

If your definition of P2W is based on timing then literally every game ever is P2W because you're automatically at a disadvantage if you don't buy the game day one and start playing the moment the servers are open.

alkarionlog

teh xp on mobs means less killing needed that for me is not major the dungeon points, that depends, if there is a time lock and what you can get with this points if there is time locks then yes its huge you can't of set the 20% with more runs, the gathering and tools is more if you like or not some don't even bother some deable on it and some live on this so there is more about you

then again its nothing out of norm(unfortunately) and yet I find too soon to complain and let the hype to build, best is still wait and see, let it launch see what is offered then see if is worth or not

Izkimar

That's completely different. Some people don't decide to play a game till later or learn about it later. If we go buy your argument, then buying BiS gear with real money that can still be earned by actually playing the game wouldn't be P2W. Because it is still just timing. 

Also, the cash shop on JP wouldn't be P2W. Because buying access to more Ymir horns and things that allow you to +15 RNG pray much much faster is still just a matter of timing. If you say timing isn't p2w that is a very very slippery slope. 

Octagon7711

Kajidourden said:

If your definition of P2W is based on timing then literally every game ever is P2W because you're automatically at a disadvantage if you don't buy the game day one and start playing the moment the servers are open.

That's pretty much why most people don't wait a week or two for the first weeks rush to slow down.  They don't want to be put at a disadvantage.  Which is also why they opt for the headstart programs.

Octagon7711

If I intend to play a game for five or more years a two week headstart shouldn't make a difference. 

Scorchien

so its F2P

            Fee2Play

BruceYee

The classic definition of P2W was always "paid advantage over other players". Some believed it was limited to PvP games and others not. Recently the lines have been blurred due to various agendas but the way to effectively judge if a game is P2W is to observe how it impacts the game and economy over a long period of time. In one year we can come back and discuss with factual evidence if the premium membership was actually P2W.

alkarionlog

Octagon7711 said:

Kajidourden said:

If your definition of P2W is based on timing then literally every game ever is P2W because you're automatically at a disadvantage if you don't buy the game day one and start playing the moment the servers are open.

That's pretty much why most people don't wait a week or two for the first weeks rush to slow down.  They don't want to be put at a disadvantage.  Which is also why they opt for the headstart programs.

not much about disavantage and more about killing people 10 lvl weaker then him, most who do that can't win a pvp fight, hell once only reason I couldn't kill a dude was the lvl gap because he was that awfull, so again there is not really reason to rush, even more with a game with so many incertain things to see

FlyByKnight

P2W wouldn't be an issue if these developers would just be straight up. If you have a box price and subscription, price everything how it needs to be to remain financially solvent and do it UP FRONT. Live with the fact that another company may do what you're doing better and cheaper and adjust. 

People would rather know after paying whatever the price is, what they see is what they get across the board. Box price is set up fee for game etc, fine. Subscription is $XX.XX to maintain and play on even plane. Fine. Some will play, some will say "too rich for my blood". A competing publisher might come in at a cheaper price point, fine.

Once the nickel and dime starts on every aspect of the game the game is ruined. It's what is inherently wrong with the F2P model (which I actually used to advocate for because I felt that games that were using sub models weren't fairly adding content). Now we see devs including F2P foolery into B2P + Sub models? Really?

When you have a game that's meant to be an MMO ecosystem, all your players should be on a level playing field, or it isn't a game it's a financial class simulator. I thought most of us play games to relax and escape this.

maskedweasel

Leveling speed isn't Pay 2 Win. It just isn't anymore than the "peace declarations" are cheating.

Trying to say it's "soft-soft-soft P2W" is just another way of saying "it's not really pay 2 win, but having a level over another person is an advantage" 

It's as much pay 2 win as someone playing for 48 hours straight is.  The faster one levels doesn't dictate that you'll win anything in the long term, and whose to say that even if you paid to get those boosts  the experience you earn would even out level someone who just has more time on their hands or levels more efficiently?

It's a bad argument.  

jahlon

If it doesn't give you an advantage in the actual PvP its probably not "Pay to Win"

But, it's certainly "Pay to...."

What subjective noun you put to close out the loop, is just that: subjective.

maji

In my opinion P2W is a binary thing: a game is either P2W or it's not. It is P2W if you can buy any sort of ingame advantage. 

Octagon7711

The thing is what if I buy cash shop advantages and use them as a casual player?  If I can only play for three hours a week but do so buying XP potions that give me 200% XP bonuses from the cash shop when I play.  So does P2W depend not on the advantage but on what the player does?  

Wizardry

ALL of those items are p2w and YES in a VERY big way.
Why?
Well ask yourself if every player would want those perks and the answer is YES 100% of the player base would love to have those perks.
So they are VERY much desirabler to the point every single player wants them so yep 100% p2w but then again i would never listen to some BS from any developer/publisher that runs a cash shop.
I thought of a good analogy....
There is this really nice looking car there for sale,you want it,yes of course you want it but wait a car is only a convenience so it is not p2w ..umm yeah right lol.

It is like saying we don't need money,it is only a convenience,we could live off the grid.
If you see a cash shop,then avoid that game.

SalmonMan

If the bar is, “ well every player would like those perks” then EVERY game is pay to win.

That is a ludicrous statement. 

SalmonMan

maji said:

In my opinion P2W is a binary thing: a game is either P2W or it's not. It is P2W if you can buy any sort of ingame advantage. 

Define advantage.

Stats?
Convenience? (i.e. time saving)
Visual? (Many games now are about bling as much as stat power)
Other?

Jim Sterling did a video related to this, about cosmetics (related to Destiny 2).

maskedweasel

Wizardry said:

ALL of those items are p2w and YES in a VERY big way.

No they aren't.

FlyByKnight

From what people have said the leveling is pretty quick, so maybe not. In a scenario where levels are hyper important to if you get 1-2 shot YES you can make the argument that XP pots in cash shop is P2X.

People who play OWPVP RVR or Faction warfare MMOs know what it means when a guild steam rolls to max and start camping world bosses and content choke points. We'll see where the tears will flow then. Not saying this couldn't happen without the boosts, but at least you'd know it's based on the focus of the guild and not a CC swipe.

Sovrath

I agree with the Wyverns and the story quests. That's ridiculous.

Izkimar

maskedweasel said:

Leveling speed isn't Pay 2 Win. It just isn't anymore than the "peace declarations" are cheating.

Trying to say it's "soft-soft-soft P2W" is just another way of saying "it's not really pay 2 win, but having a level over another person is an advantage" 

It's as much pay 2 win as someone playing for 48 hours straight is.  The faster one levels doesn't dictate that you'll win anything in the long term, and whose to say that even if you paid to get those boosts  the experience you earn would even out level someone who just has more time on their hands or levels more efficiently?

It's a bad argument.  

@FlyByKnight "From what people have said the leveling is pretty quick, so maybe not. In a scenario where levels are hyper important to if you get 1-2 shot YES you can make the argument that XP pots in cash shop is P2X."

You guys don't understand the systems in Bless. Whether this is slight or severe is something that can be debated, but it is pretty hard to say it isn't P2W. The degree of severity doesn't change the definition, but it does decide whether it is tolerable or not. 

Here's the thing, there is a huge power curve in this game. Racing to 45 is huge, getting into the dungeons faster is huge, keeping more gold and progressing crafting faster is all very big. Getting into dungeons and getting BiS gear isn't super cut and dry. 

There is heavy RNG involved. Getting a drop even for your class can get you 1 of 15 Rune slots on your gear. Only 1 Rune is optimal for almost every class, and then there is a pretty big drop off to the next best options, and then a steep drop off to the rest. You then need to upgrade your gear and get it to +15 in order to get double rune slots which is then super RNG too. Then you need to go to +15 again in order to get it to Legendary. 

Or in the 10 man Raid and "rumored" off of World Bosses you have a CHANCE to get Legendary gear. That then shrinks the time to making that gear the best if you get the right Rune Slots. 

None of this mentions the speed of leveling your guild, which directly impacts population cap on your guild, and directly impacts when you can start the race to bidding for territories and getting a leg up on your opponents. Nor does that directly mention crafting it's impact, and the pet system which is super RNG, grindy, and impactful on the power curve as well. 

Getting momentum is a huge advantage. 20% isn't the biggest advantage in the world, and I still label it as minor. However, I can also see it compound. Yes there is a point to where the non-premium member will catch up. But how long do we last in MMO's these days? We might only enjoy 2-3 months of the game, because of other unforeseen reasons. If we only are there to enjoy those 2-3 months, then doesn't that make it even worse? 

TLDR; there is a lot of indirect power through EXP and currency to be gained here that will impact your race up the steep power curve. 

Izkimar

SalmonMan said:

maji said:

In my opinion P2W is a binary thing: a game is either P2W or it's not. It is P2W if you can buy any sort of ingame advantage. 

Define advantage.

Stats?
Convenience? (i.e. time saving)
Visual? (Many games now are about bling as much as stat power)
Other?

Jim Sterling did a video related to this, about cosmetics (related to Destiny 2).

Again, arguing that it's convenience if it's based on time is a slippery slope. You never know how long you will actually enjoy a game. If a paid service makes it so that you don't finally reach the same level of power as the other person until 2-3 months into the game. That person had a paid advantage for that time. 

Anytime you can pay for an advantage in Power Progression. That is by definition of the words in the phrase pay to win. 

Yaevindusk

So I've never played this game.  Had followed it for a number of years out of curiosity, but only saw gameplay videos and screenshots without hearing about the actual game.  So it seems unfair of me to judge it on any grounds other than things they've made as facts themselves.  As well as quote and respond to people with that in mind.

I will say that they saw the feedback regarding the $199 package and lowered it to $149 and took off the controversial premium customer service point.  So they aren't putting their fingers to their ears and seem to be trying as best as they're able to satiate a never ending stream of people with opinions.  If something is fixed, then something else will pop up.

Octagon7711 said:

I've never seen a company say, yes we are selling pay2win.  Everyone says it's not and gives there reasoning. I've said, it's not really P2W it's more like pay to dominate faster.  

Pay to dominate faster

Pay to dominate.

Dominate: 

have a commanding influence on; exercise control over.

be the most important or conspicuous person or thing in.

(of something tall or high) have a commanding position over; overlook.

----------------------

Not going to go into personal opinions on this (that is, what I consider to be P2W or not), but I'd just like to quote and analyze the above as I have seen a lot of the same from many over the years regarding various games.

I've heard "Pay to advance" to describe PvE only games.  Though the term "Pay to Dominate" does seem more apt when it comes to PvP, and I'm not sure people are reading what they write when they use it as an excuse to say it's not... well, paying to dominate.  As far as I'm concerned, winning and dominating are synonyms.

That said, I can see how someone simply wouldn't care.  In addition, there may be ways to make it irrelevant.  Such as if PvP is only active at max level.  In addition if dungeon points or the like make you more powerful as a whole.  If something gives you a legitimate advantage in PvP such as the before mentioned dungeon points (which, again, I know nothing of and if they really do offer better equipment), then it's a matter of personal opinion if that helps you win.  If it pushes two people of equal skill and level to the point where they win most of the time because of it, then it seems pretty straightforward to a lot of people.

-----------------------

I generally don't want to say what I think is definitively "P2W" as a whole... As premium is supposed to be attractive to try and sell subscriptions.

What I am personally appalled by is this supposed "Pay for PvE" item that only lasts 10 minutes according to what I read someone else say.  I've not confirmed the time, but another site did say that it was confirmed as an item.

Though before I speak more of it, is anyone able to confirm it themselves?  I'd rather not just rely on a site and my own glimpsing by themselves and make a jerk of myself by talking about a game I haven't played.

I have wrote before (on this site no less) that I think a game should have "the balls" to be 100% pvp without selling PVE items if they don't want PvE in the game.  Don't try to make someone's preferred playstyle cost them more after they already paid a box price.  Or force them to do additional things.  Stick to what you've made without trying to appease both sides -- you'll just make an ass of yourself by splitting resources when the foundation wasn't built as such.  And people with associate you with failure if you then try to nickel and dime the group you tricked into playing thinking they could find a way to play how they want to play.

If you want PvE money, then make a PvE server.  Simple as that.  If it doesn't fit, then don't implement "PvP can't attack you" items to sell.  Period.

But that's just my own thoughts and morals on the subject.  It just screams red flag to me.  That matched with their last couple markets not working out with the same things implemented.

StoneRoses

Here we go again with the same responses different title!
This topic is very reminiscent to on and off again girl/boy friend.
Talk about a terrible fucking break up.
What would take for you to pick up or not pick up a new video game?