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Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Iselin said:
    Eldurian said:
    It's a trend but it's a trend I personally feel a level of disgust for. I have never personally purchased a loot box, ever. If I spend my money on a game I want something guaranteed not a chance for a reward.

    And games have done an exceptionally good job of allowing me to do that for the most part. It's like in ArcheAge. Everything in the lootboxes came in a wrapped form. I would just buy the items I wanted with in-game gold and skip the RNG. I did a lot of bypassing RNG by just paying upfront for the finished product in that game.

    Some people like the rush. Some people enjoy the gambling aspect. Yeah it feeds into unhealthy addictions sometimes, but newsflash, they aren't me. I don't get to tell other people what they can and can't do just because I think it's a bad decision. They can gamble if they want.

    So long as it isn't infringing on my rights, it isn't my business. 

    I personally hope these companies pull their games from Belgium and Netherlands and offer no substitution. Let them face the fury of their own citizens when the state is telling them they can't play the games they want to play. See how much they love their government overreach then.
    Again, you're not looking hard enough. It impacts everyone because things - often the best things - are being put in loot boxes and can't be gotten any other way.

    You can shrug that off and say "Well, it's not things I want anyway"... give it time.
    Except that's an absolutely false statement for every game I've played with loot boxes. I can't name a single game I've played in which items that are lootboot exclusive aren't tradable. If they are tradable then buying them directly after someone else does the gambling is always in option.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Eldurian said:
    Iselin said:
    Eldurian said:
    It's a trend but it's a trend I personally feel a level of disgust for. I have never personally purchased a loot box, ever. If I spend my money on a game I want something guaranteed not a chance for a reward.

    And games have done an exceptionally good job of allowing me to do that for the most part. It's like in ArcheAge. Everything in the lootboxes came in a wrapped form. I would just buy the items I wanted with in-game gold and skip the RNG. I did a lot of bypassing RNG by just paying upfront for the finished product in that game.

    Some people like the rush. Some people enjoy the gambling aspect. Yeah it feeds into unhealthy addictions sometimes, but newsflash, they aren't me. I don't get to tell other people what they can and can't do just because I think it's a bad decision. They can gamble if they want.

    So long as it isn't infringing on my rights, it isn't my business. 

    I personally hope these companies pull their games from Belgium and Netherlands and offer no substitution. Let them face the fury of their own citizens when the state is telling them they can't play the games they want to play. See how much they love their government overreach then.
    Again, you're not looking hard enough. It impacts everyone because things - often the best things - are being put in loot boxes and can't be gotten any other way.

    You can shrug that off and say "Well, it's not things I want anyway"... give it time.
    Except that's an absolutely false statement for every game I've played with loot boxes. I can't name a single game I've played in which items that are lootboot exclusive aren't tradable. If they are tradable then buying them directly after someone else does the gambling is always in option.
    None of that means it does not exist.  It does.
    craftseeker

    image
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited May 2018
    It certainly can't be a very popular model if I've never encountered it.

    Also it's a model that at least the Netherlands law doesn't even apply to. They are specifically targeting companies that allow the resale of lootbox goods for cash such as PUBG.

    Do you know that that means? You can just buy the items you want with cash rather than getting them through lootboxes. These laws force people back into using the models you say you don't want.

    It's an anti-gambling law which just like anti-drug laws, anti-prostitution laws etc. are laws prohibiting victimless crimes. AKA telling other people how to live their lives because apparently sorting out their own problems and minding their own damn business isn't good enough for people.

    We need to pay the government to stop people from doing things that offend us I guess.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    It certainly can't be a very popular model if I've never encountered it.

    Also it's a model that at least the Netherlands law doesn't even apply to. They are specifically targeting companies that allow the resale of lootbox goods for cash such as PUBG.

    Do you know that that means? You can just but the items you want with cash rather than getting them through lootboxes.
    Multi-level marketing schemes aren't that relatively popular either, but are still an issue when it occurs.
    craftseeker

    image
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited May 2018
    I guess just not playing games that use a monetization model that you don't agree with doesn't work? Personally I would never play a game that requires me to buy lootboxes to get things I want either, and that's stopped me from playing games a grand total of 0 times. 

    Companies are under no obligation to make the products you want, and the government is not the tool to force them to make things the way you want them made, but believe it or not capitalism has actually been doing a great job here. That's why it's not an issue for anyone who isn't specifically looking for outlier cases to be mad about. 

    Because consumers don't want to be forced to use lootboxes and the market has responded by almost never doing that.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,385
    Eldurian said:
    I guess just not playing games that use a monetization model that you don't agree with doesn't work? Personally I would never play a game that requires me to buy lootboxes to get things I want either, and that's stopped me from playing games a grand total of 0 times. 

    Companies are under no obligation to make the products you want, and the government is not the tool to force them to make things the way you want them made, but believe it or not capitalism has actually been doing a great job here. That's why it's not an issue for anyone who isn't specifically looking for outlier cases to be mad about. 

    Because consumers don't want to be forced to use lootboxes and the market has responded by almost never doing that.
    Kids should not have gambling boxes marketed to them.  It's as simple as that.  Take the kids out and we can talk about the other stuff.

    LeFantome

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Eldurian said:
    I guess just not playing games that use a monetization model that you don't agree with doesn't work? Personally I would never play a game that requires me to buy lootboxes to get things I want either, and that's stopped me from playing games a grand total of 0 times. 

    Companies are under no obligation to make the products you want, and the government is not the tool to force them to make things the way you want them made, but believe it or not capitalism has actually been doing a great job here. That's why it's not an issue for anyone who isn't specifically looking for outlier cases to be mad about. 

    Because consumers don't want to be forced to use lootboxes and the market has responded by almost never doing that.
    Capitalism has done wonders for this genre?  How do you reconcile that with the opinion you hold that the genre is dying?

    Lootboxes work by circumventing the need for popular support for the model.  Check the stats on how much of a percentage whales make up in terms of revenue for these games.  You don't need a lot of folks who like it, just relatively few with deep pockets.

    image
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,678
    Eldurian said:
    Iselin said:
    Eldurian said:
    It's a trend but it's a trend I personally feel a level of disgust for. I have never personally purchased a loot box, ever. If I spend my money on a game I want something guaranteed not a chance for a reward.

    And games have done an exceptionally good job of allowing me to do that for the most part. It's like in ArcheAge. Everything in the lootboxes came in a wrapped form. I would just buy the items I wanted with in-game gold and skip the RNG. I did a lot of bypassing RNG by just paying upfront for the finished product in that game.

    Some people like the rush. Some people enjoy the gambling aspect. Yeah it feeds into unhealthy addictions sometimes, but newsflash, they aren't me. I don't get to tell other people what they can and can't do just because I think it's a bad decision. They can gamble if they want.

    So long as it isn't infringing on my rights, it isn't my business. 

    I personally hope these companies pull their games from Belgium and Netherlands and offer no substitution. Let them face the fury of their own citizens when the state is telling them they can't play the games they want to play. See how much they love their government overreach then.
    Again, you're not looking hard enough. It impacts everyone because things - often the best things - are being put in loot boxes and can't be gotten any other way.

    You can shrug that off and say "Well, it's not things I want anyway"... give it time.
    Except that's an absolutely false statement for every game I've played with loot boxes. I can't name a single game I've played in which items that are lootboot exclusive aren't tradable. If they are tradable then buying them directly after someone else does the gambling is always in option.
    ESO to name just one where this is the case.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Eldurian said:
    I guess just not playing games that use a monetization model that you don't agree with doesn't work? Personally I would never play a game that requires me to buy lootboxes to get things I want either, and that's stopped me from playing games a grand total of 0 times. 

    Companies are under no obligation to make the products you want, and the government is not the tool to force them to make things the way you want them made, but believe it or not capitalism has actually been doing a great job here. That's why it's not an issue for anyone who isn't specifically looking for outlier cases to be mad about. 

    Because consumers don't want to be forced to use lootboxes and the market has responded by almost never doing that.
    Capitalism has done wonders for this genre?  How do you reconcile that with the opinion you hold that the genre is dying?

    Lootboxes work by circumventing the need for popular support for the model.  Check the stats on how much of a percentage whales make up in terms of revenue for these games.  You don't need a lot of folks who like it, just relatively few with deep pockets.
    Because you're putting words in my mouth bud. I didn't say that capitalism has done wonders for the genre, I've said capitalism has negated the loot box issue by making it so that loot boxes are highly optional in pretty much every game where they exist.

    However, if we want to talk about using the nanny state and my opinions.

    Leveling additions are unhealthy. They do no good for anyone just have people killing time so they can feel powerful in a virtual world. @Slapshot1188 - They instill unhealthy habits in children and do incredible phycological harm. THINK OF THE CHILDREN DAMMIT!

    I move we have the nanny state ban all games with leveling to end these horrible issues. It's the only sensible thing to do.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,385
    Eldurian said:
    Eldurian said:
    I guess just not playing games that use a monetization model that you don't agree with doesn't work? Personally I would never play a game that requires me to buy lootboxes to get things I want either, and that's stopped me from playing games a grand total of 0 times. 

    Companies are under no obligation to make the products you want, and the government is not the tool to force them to make things the way you want them made, but believe it or not capitalism has actually been doing a great job here. That's why it's not an issue for anyone who isn't specifically looking for outlier cases to be mad about. 

    Because consumers don't want to be forced to use lootboxes and the market has responded by almost never doing that.
    Capitalism has done wonders for this genre?  How do you reconcile that with the opinion you hold that the genre is dying?

    Lootboxes work by circumventing the need for popular support for the model.  Check the stats on how much of a percentage whales make up in terms of revenue for these games.  You don't need a lot of folks who like it, just relatively few with deep pockets.
    Because you're putting words in my mouth bud. I didn't say that capitalism has done wonders for the genre, I've said capitalism has negated the loot box issue by making it so that loot boxes are highly optional in pretty much every game where they exist.

    However, if we want to talk about using the nanny state and my opinions.

    Leveling additions are unhealthy. They do no good for anyone just have people killing time so they can feel powerful in a virtual world. @Slapshot1188 - They instill unhealthy habits in children and do incredible phycological harm. THINK OF THE CHILDREN DAMMIT!

    I move we have the nanny state ban all games with leveling to end these horrible issues. It's the only sensible thing to do.
    If you want to make gambling legal for kids then go change the laws.  The laws here say that you can’t market gambling to kids or allow them to participate.  If you think they should then go get the law changed. Personally I think it’s horrible and I think we can do better.  

    Your attempted defense is pathetic.  I know YOU can do better.
    IselinAsm0deuscraftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,678
    Eldurian said:
    Eldurian said:
    I guess just not playing games that use a monetization model that you don't agree with doesn't work? Personally I would never play a game that requires me to buy lootboxes to get things I want either, and that's stopped me from playing games a grand total of 0 times. 

    Companies are under no obligation to make the products you want, and the government is not the tool to force them to make things the way you want them made, but believe it or not capitalism has actually been doing a great job here. That's why it's not an issue for anyone who isn't specifically looking for outlier cases to be mad about. 

    Because consumers don't want to be forced to use lootboxes and the market has responded by almost never doing that.
    Capitalism has done wonders for this genre?  How do you reconcile that with the opinion you hold that the genre is dying?

    Lootboxes work by circumventing the need for popular support for the model.  Check the stats on how much of a percentage whales make up in terms of revenue for these games.  You don't need a lot of folks who like it, just relatively few with deep pockets.
    Because you're putting words in my mouth bud. I didn't say that capitalism has done wonders for the genre, I've said capitalism has negated the loot box issue by making it so that loot boxes are highly optional in pretty much every game where they exist.

    However, if we want to talk about using the nanny state and my opinions.

    Leveling additions are unhealthy. They do no good for anyone just have people killing time so they can feel powerful in a virtual world. @Slapshot1188 - They instill unhealthy habits in children and do incredible phycological harm. THINK OF THE CHILDREN DAMMIT!

    I move we have the nanny state ban all games with leveling to end these horrible issues. It's the only sensible thing to do.
    If you want to make gambling legal for kids then go change the laws.  The laws here say that you can’t market gambling to kids or allow them to participate.  If you think they should then go get the law changed. Personally I think it’s horrible and I think we can do better.  

    Your attempted defense is pathetic.  I know YOU can do better.
    I only half agree with you. I'm not so sure he can do better on this particular topic. :)
    craftseeker
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,984
    Follow the money - lootboxes are gambling = EU wants to tax them.

    Write this down.
    IselinSlapshot1188LeFantomecraftseeker
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,678
    Follow the money - lootboxes are gambling = EU wants to tax them.

    Write this down.
    Digital game transactions (subscriptions, cash shop purchases, etc.) are already taxed in the EU, Australia and even a couple of states in the US - Illinois for one.
    craftseeker
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    @Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

    I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

    But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

    Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.
    IselinLeFantomekjempffAsm0deuscraftseekerSlapshot1188
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,501
    edited May 2018
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Loot boxes are gambling much in the same way rolling the dice in monopoly is gambling. 

    The only variable, is you are paying to roll.
    Nope, false analogy. Did you read the ruling from the Belgian government? Loot boxes are gambling, just like slot machines are gambling.
    I's disagree, only because you can't actually lose with a Loot Box, you are guaranteed to get something, much in the same way those random vending machine work, where kids put quarters in and get out cheap toys. They may not get what they want, but they will always get something.
    So let me make sure I have this straight.  If you pay $1 to have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 50% chance of nothing, that's gambling.  But if you pay $2 to have a 50% chance of winning $3 and a 50% chance of winning $1, then that's not gambling, because in the latter you always win something.  Is that basically what you're arguing?
    Not really.

    See it works like this. With a Loot Box, it is like putting money into a vending machine, that is full of random junk jewelry, and getting a Red one as opposed to the Blue one you want, but the drive and desire for the Blue one is because you know their is only 1 blue one in the whole dispenser, never realizing that both are worthless junk, and worth the same to the retailer and creator of the product.

    As such, unlike gambling, the only value these "items" have, is based on what someone else will pay for it, or appeasing personal vanity, ergo, what you will pay for it. But the in-game item, just like those bits of plastic jewelry, are vastly worthless.

    This is of course, if the are purely cosmetic.

    If they confer a direct and conspicuous in-game advantage, that is a whole other matter.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,385
    Eldurian said:
    @Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

    I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

    But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

    Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.
    Irrelevant.  If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try.  Maybe I’ll support you.  Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.


    As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards.  It goes on and on.  So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes.  He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

    We can do better than this.
    LeFantomeAsm0deus

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,501
    Eldurian said:
    @Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

    I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

    But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

    Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.
    Irrelevant.  If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try.  Maybe I’ll support you.  Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.


    As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards.  It goes on and on.  So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes.  He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

    We can do better than this.
    So, shall we remove gumball machines next, because the color you get is a gamble?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,433
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    @Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

    I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

    But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

    Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.
      First .. you dont snort crack you smoke it ..

      2nd .. your crusade against leveling and vertical progression , has no place in this discussion , it seems you almost , dare i say, have an Addiction to injecting this narrative into every thread ..

      3rd .. life is Leveling .. no different than gaming .. you strive always to improve in skills and gear ... Vertically .. Yes .. bettering oneself is addictive .. Horizontly progressing in life will get you crushed
    Slapshot1188Iselinkjempffcraftseeker
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,385
    Ungood said:
    Eldurian said:
    @Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

    I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

    But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

    Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.
    Irrelevant.  If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try.  Maybe I’ll support you.  Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.


    As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards.  It goes on and on.  So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes.  He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

    We can do better than this.
    So, shall we remove gumball machines next, because the color you get is a gamble?
    Keep making stupid analogies.  It's not helping your cause.
    Asm0deuscraftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Loot boxes are gambling much in the same way rolling the dice in monopoly is gambling. 

    The only variable, is you are paying to roll.
    Nope, false analogy. Did you read the ruling from the Belgian government? Loot boxes are gambling, just like slot machines are gambling.
    I's disagree, only because you can't actually lose with a Loot Box, you are guaranteed to get something, much in the same way those random vending machine work, where kids put quarters in and get out cheap toys. They may not get what they want, but they will always get something.
    So let me make sure I have this straight.  If you pay $1 to have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 50% chance of nothing, that's gambling.  But if you pay $2 to have a 50% chance of winning $3 and a 50% chance of winning $1, then that's not gambling, because in the latter you always win something.  Is that basically what you're arguing?
    Not really.

    See it works like this. With a Loot Box, it is like putting money into a vending machine, that is full of random junk jewelry, and getting a Red one as opposed to the Blue one you want, but the drive and desire for the Blue one is because you know their is only 1 blue one in the whole dispenser, never realizing that both are worthless junk, and worth the same to the retailer and creator of the product.

    As such, unlike gambling, the only value these "items" have, is based on what someone else will pay for it, or appeasing personal vanity, ergo, what you will pay for it. But the in-game item, just like those bits of plastic jewelry, are vastly worthless.

    This is of course, if the are purely cosmetic.

    If they confer a direct and conspicuous in-game advantage, that is a whole other matter.
    Unless there's a legal RMT market, nothing you win has any value whatsoever.  It's not even yours.

    image
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,678
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Loot boxes are gambling much in the same way rolling the dice in monopoly is gambling. 

    The only variable, is you are paying to roll.
    Nope, false analogy. Did you read the ruling from the Belgian government? Loot boxes are gambling, just like slot machines are gambling.
    I's disagree, only because you can't actually lose with a Loot Box, you are guaranteed to get something, much in the same way those random vending machine work, where kids put quarters in and get out cheap toys. They may not get what they want, but they will always get something.
    So let me make sure I have this straight.  If you pay $1 to have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 50% chance of nothing, that's gambling.  But if you pay $2 to have a 50% chance of winning $3 and a 50% chance of winning $1, then that's not gambling, because in the latter you always win something.  Is that basically what you're arguing?
    Not really.

    See it works like this. With a Loot Box, it is like putting money into a vending machine, that is full of random junk jewelry, and getting a Red one as opposed to the Blue one you want, but the drive and desire for the Blue one is because you know their is only 1 blue one in the whole dispenser, never realizing that both are worthless junk, and worth the same to the retailer and creator of the product.

    As such, unlike gambling, the only value these "items" have, is based on what someone else will pay for it, or appeasing personal vanity, ergo, what you will pay for it. But the item, but, none the less, just like those bits of plastic jewelry they are vastly worthless.

    This is of course, if the are purely cosmetic.

    If they confer a direct and astute in-game advantage, that is a whole other matter.
    You're simply shifting your argument to safer ground. You're now talking about real world monetary value and not the "you are guaranteed to get something" you clearly started with.

    "Guaranteed to get something" is just not a defining characteristic of not gambling.

    Cash for a chance at more cash is a better argument but still not the definitive criteria some want it to be. It doesn't address lotteries with items instead of cash as the payoff and it certainly does not address the perceived value of one digital item vs. another one which is a new a developing idea about which things are valuable to us.

    Value is a consensual thing when applied to items. There is no intrinsic reason why a diamond is worth X times more than a lump of coal. Sure there is a natural rarity difference and an aesthetic difference but its worth is still something we consensually and arbitrarily assign to it.

    I don't think anyone would argue that buying a $100 ticket for a chance at a diamond is not gambling even if the guaranteed consolation price is a a lump of coal. But that's happening in the real world and the diamond can be converted to cash. So no problem thinking of it as gambling and getting the necessary permit to hold that lottery.

    What about an in game diamond lottery that only has value in that game? If the players who inhabit that virtual world consensually apply an arbitrary value to it and the way to obtain it is to pay real world cash for a chance from a box that may also give you a lump of coal how is that emotionally and mechanically different from its real world equivalent?

    It's still gambling albeit with a virtual payoff of dubious value and if it was just pretend gambling with no real world cash needed to do it that would be a relatively harmless thing on the same level as simulated in game violence or sex.

    But you add real world cash to it to get the ball rolling and I can see a legitimate reason for people to start wondering just how different this is compared to traditional real world gambling.
    Scorchien
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    Eldurian said:
    I guess just not playing games that use a monetization model that you don't agree with doesn't work? Personally I would never play a game that requires me to buy lootboxes to get things I want either, and that's stopped me from playing games a grand total of 0 times. 

    Companies are under no obligation to make the products you want, and the government is not the tool to force them to make things the way you want them made, but believe it or not capitalism has actually been doing a great job here. That's why it's not an issue for anyone who isn't specifically looking for outlier cases to be mad about. 

    Because consumers don't want to be forced to use lootboxes and the market has responded by almost never doing that.
    Capitalism has done wonders for this genre?  How do you reconcile that with the opinion you hold that the genre is dying?

    Lootboxes work by circumventing the need for popular support for the model.  Check the stats on how much of a percentage whales make up in terms of revenue for these games.  You don't need a lot of folks who like it, just relatively few with deep pockets.
    Because you're putting words in my mouth bud. I didn't say that capitalism has done wonders for the genre, I've said capitalism has negated the loot box issue by making it so that loot boxes are highly optional in pretty much every game where they exist.

    However, if we want to talk about using the nanny state and my opinions.

    Leveling additions are unhealthy. They do no good for anyone just have people killing time so they can feel powerful in a virtual world. @Slapshot1188 - They instill unhealthy habits in children and do incredible phycological harm. THINK OF THE CHILDREN DAMMIT!

    I move we have the nanny state ban all games with leveling to end these horrible issues. It's the only sensible thing to do.
    Leveling additions are part of playing the game.  It means you can sink more hours into the game and still see obvious progression.

    Hobbies are ways to spend free time.  Your analogy completely ignores this Eldurian.  Lootboxes don't create time sinks, they eliminate them.  It does nothing for the longevity of the hobby, because as @Iselin has mentioned many times, it's turned resources towards exclusively creating cash shop items to buy instead of solely more gameplay content you can play through.

    Capitalism allowed devs to make behind-the-scenes changes to code to the detriment of their players while simultaneously preventing any consumer from actually owning anything they "purchase".  It has very much damaged the industry from a consumer perspective.
    ScorchienIselinAsm0deus

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Scorchien said:
    Eldurian said:
    @Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

    I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

    But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

    Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.
      First .. you dont snort crack you smoke it ..

      2nd .. your crusade against leveling and vertical progression , has no place in this discussion , it seems you almost , dare i say, have an Addiction to injecting this narrative into every thread ..

      3rd .. life is Leveling .. no different than gaming .. you strive always to improve in skills and gear ... Vertically .. Yes .. bettering oneself is addictive .. Horizontly progressing in life will get you crushed
    I guess you would know how crack is used. My own knowledge on the subject is admittedly a bit sparse. Good thing we have you to correct me.

    I've said it many times before but for those who don't want it to sink in, it never will. Play hot-cross buns 1000 times and then try to play through the fire and the flames or a classical masterpiece.

    Not going to work. But it would work that way if it was an MMO because you'd have high enough "music" skills.

    Leveling isn't a reward for diligently applying yourself to a hobby. Its a reward for for mindlessly running through motions. I have yet to play any game ever in which I found the act of leveling to present a challenge or push the limits of my abilities they way I had to in hobbies such as sports.

    Repetitive motions giving the illusion of success feeds an unhealthy addiction and creates unrealistic expectations in the same way participation trophies do.

    But like I said, I'm saying this on a forum primarily inhabited to people who have an addition they will deny is unhealthy until the cows come home. So go ahead and circle your wagons but your echo chamber doesn't alter the facts.
    Cryomatrix
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Simply put, if you want to attack other's additions. Maybe you should put down your own crackpipe first.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,501
    Ungood said:
    Eldurian said:
    @Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

    I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

    But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

    Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.
    Irrelevant.  If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try.  Maybe I’ll support you.  Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.


    As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards.  It goes on and on.  So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes.  He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

    We can do better than this.
    So, shall we remove gumball machines next, because the color you get is a gamble?
    Keep making stupid analogies.  It's not helping your cause.
    Anyone that has watched a 6 year old child dump 3 dollars into a 25Cent gumball machine, because they wanted the purple one, knows how apt my analogy is.

    You simply don't like it, but a gumball machine is a perfect analogy to use for lootboxes, as the only thing that makes one gumball better then another, is the desire for the color, just like 99% of all MMO's with lootboxes, which are purely cosmetic junk.

    If it's a bad analogy, then.. Prove me Wrong.
    Slapshot1188
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
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