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Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Asm0deus said:

    The real difference between you and me is I think laws should be pretty much the same for everyone and I also feel that just because one person closes his eyes to a crime and claims no foul, thus there can be no victims, there should be consequences if there actually is a crime and there actually is a victim. 
    No, the difference between me and you is that you feel you are qualified to claim victimhood of others when they are content with the transaction that they have made, and I am content to let people live their own lives and make their own decisions.

    You feel you know better than others how they should run their own lives. I feel that whether I do or not, that isn't my place.

    The nanny state isn't a myth at all. You are living breathing proof.

    You say:

    "Games like Entropia Universe need to die in a fire and not only that they should be audited by the IRS and so should everyone that plays it and similar type games."

    @Cryomatrix - As a player of Entropia Universe do you feel like a victim? What are your thoughts on this statement.

    Because from my perspective it looks like you're telling him you know better how he should run his life. Looks to me, like you're trying to play his nanny.


  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited May 2018
    You know the more I analyze that statement.

    "Games like Entropia Universe need to die in a fire and not only that they should be audited by the IRS and so should everyone that plays it and similar type games."

    Of course there is total disregard for the developers who would also lose their job. But also, you're attacking the playerbase. So who exactly are you thinking of when you make a statement like that? Who benefits from attacking an entire game and it's playerbase?

    Or are you just holding true to your namesake and showing your lawful-evil side? Cares about the law, but doesn't give half a crap about people. 

    Because I truly see no evidence of compassion or a good person behind a statement like that. I see hatred. I see vitriol. I see selfishness. But nothing good in you. You honestly strike me as a horrible, controlling, nasty individual.
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,885
    @Asm0deus

    You say:

    Games like Entropia Universe need to die in a fire and not only that they should be audited by the IRS and so should everyone that plays it and similar type games.

    ---> Thus I should be audited because I willfully play a slot machine that is wrapped up in a shitty MMO. I know what I'm getting into, I'm an adult and the game was explained to me as a slot machine masquerading as an MMO. I went into it, thinking that I could use my brain and make money off of it. The reality is that, I could, it is just not worth my time to do that, so I just use it to get my gambling fix off. 

    It is a really good way to gamble too, because I can spend hours playing and i may only lose like $10-40 bucks based on what I'm doing or I may gain a few bucks. Either way, it is entertainment for me. Currently, i'm making $10 a month from it from my land deeds :)

    And no, I don't feel victimized. I am the type of person that I take responsibility for my actions. 

    Also FYI: I do a bit of fantasy football fanduel and what not, but I never go to casinos as I hate casinos, I don't play the lottery as it is a fool's errand. I just like to put money on shit because it makes it more exciting. 

    To get on topic:

    Loot boxes are a bit predatory but it really is no different than collecting baseball cards and magic the gathering crap. You buy packs (i.e. loot boxes) hoping for a rare cards (i.e. rare item). That shit has been going on for ages. 

    Also, the US gov't makes like 70-80 billion a year off the state and us lottery, so apparently, no one really cares. Also, if you want to get on your high horse about something, there are a few things as predatory and fucked up as health insurance in America. Now that is absolute bullshit of the highest order, not some stupid fucking loot box shit. Sorry for being salty, i got called into work at 2-3 AM :)

    Cryomatrix

    UngoodEldurian
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,697
    Sports betting should give governments some good revenue in taxes.
    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,625
    Ungood said:
    laserit said:
    Eldurian said:
    laserit said:
    Eldurian said:
    laserit said:

    A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

    Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



    The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

    The majority of online gamers are adults.

    The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

    Stop lying.
    A major percentage (second highest group) of your graph are children.

    I said:

    "A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children."

    reading comprehension

    Bullshit nothing


    That graph is every game from lego racers and angry birds to Leisure Suit Larry and Postal 2. Do you honestly think that when you

    A. Exclude offline titles.
    B. Exclude anyone who doesn't buy lootboxes.

    that the ratio of children to adults is going to go up?
    I honestly believe that predatory monetization should be kept away from children.

    If children are a small insignificant fraction of loot box sales maybe the companies involved can provide that data.

    If they have no idea than I'd say we have a problem.

    Maybe one day if you ever hold your own son or daughter you would most likely understand where I'm coming from.

    Some are so far gone they could give a fuck about their own kids never mind anyone else's.
    Again.. their Data is that Every Account is made by Legal Adult, and under the control of a Legal Adult, as only a legal adult has the authority to sign an EULA. if at any time they become informed that a minor has created an account without the expressed approval of their legal parent or guardian by law they have to shut down the account.

    It's not a Game Company's responsibly to raise other peoples children, and, chances are, if someone is not raising their children well, there is a good chance their are other companies that are preying upon them as well, as they might not be the brightest bulbs in the lamp.
    Your legal theory is wrong. This falls under the same concept of checking an ID at a bar or having sex with a minor. Having a minor self-certify they are of age does not allow you to serve them. If the minor goes to great lengths such as providing a realistic false ID then the minor could theoretically be held accountable, but simply typing in a random birthday does not pass that test.

    What is interesting is that if a company is advised that they have entered into a contract with a minor they need to end it and also refund all purchases no matter what their refund policy.  This is whether they knowingly served a minor or not.

    Also, if industry stats show that 28% of players are under the age of 18 (from Eldurian)then there is likely an easy case to be made that those companies knew that at least a portion of their own players were under age.   That could be argued as willingly providing an illegal service to a minor.   After all, they are the ones that setup their rules about not needing an ID and accepting game cards. 

    TLDR:  If lootboxes are recognized as gambling the onus is on the companies.  Right now their EULA is fine because nobody cares.  Once lootboxes are gambling, then it’s a whole new world.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,625

    @Slapshot1188 The problem with requiring a legal ID to be kept on file is that may not be possible, either because there is no unique identifier, or because collecting and storing that information is, itself, illegal. Collecting credit card numbers for payment may be the best alternative.
    As I said, I’m not an expert on ID validation.  As long as they have a system that works I think that’s fine. I will note that I recently opened an online account at a brokerage and had to provide them with my legal ID to do so.   The issue with credit card numbers is that minors can get them.  My HighSchool kids get Discover Card mail all the time.  They require an adult co-signer but do not by themselves indicate the account holder is an adult.  Otherwise you could just flash a credit card at a bar and be served.

    Again though, it can be any method... as long as it works.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,643
    laserit said:
    Eldurian said:
    laserit said:

    A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

    Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



    The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

    The majority of online gamers are adults.

    The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

    Stop lying.
    A major percentage (second highest group) of your graph are children.

    I said:

    "A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children."

    reading comprehension

    Bullshit nothing



    The number of children playing must me underrepresented anyway, but quite enough even if you take the figures as shown here.
    laserit

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  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,266
    Ungood said:
    laserit said:
    Eldurian said:
    laserit said:
    Eldurian said:
    laserit said:

    A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

    Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



    The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

    The majority of online gamers are adults.

    The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

    Stop lying.
    A major percentage (second highest group) of your graph are children.

    I said:

    "A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children."

    reading comprehension

    Bullshit nothing


    That graph is every game from lego racers and angry birds to Leisure Suit Larry and Postal 2. Do you honestly think that when you

    A. Exclude offline titles.
    B. Exclude anyone who doesn't buy lootboxes.

    that the ratio of children to adults is going to go up?
    I honestly believe that predatory monetization should be kept away from children.

    If children are a small insignificant fraction of loot box sales maybe the companies involved can provide that data.

    If they have no idea than I'd say we have a problem.

    Maybe one day if you ever hold your own son or daughter you would most likely understand where I'm coming from.

    Some are so far gone they could give a fuck about their own kids never mind anyone else's.
    Again.. their Data is that Every Account is made by Legal Adult, and under the control of a Legal Adult, as only a legal adult has the authority to sign an EULA. if at any time they become informed that a minor has created an account without the expressed approval of their legal parent or guardian by law they have to shut down the account.

    It's not a Game Company's responsibly to raise other peoples children, and, chances are, if someone is not raising their children well, there is a good chance their are other companies that are preying upon them as well, as they might not be the brightest bulbs in the lamp.
    Here you go again

    Your industry is not above everyone else. You have a social responsibility. Your crappy bullshit system is inadequate. You should demonstrate it for your politicians.

    A bar has the social and legal responsibility to cut an adult off if they've had too much to drink.

    If your attitude is the one taken by your industry, regulation is all but guaranteed. 
    craftseeker

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 3,320
    Asm0deus said:
    Ungood said:
    Asm0deus said:
    Ungood said:
    Asm0deus said:

    Doesn't matter if some stuff like cosmetics is sold straight up if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only.  
    I want you to read this a few times over.

    No.. really.. read what you said.

    "if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only"

    Now, think of this.. something can only be "rare" if there is a small chance to get it, ergo, if they just sold the item in the store, it would no longer be "Most rare" item.

    So, the problem is not the game, it is the players who want a "rare" item.. and yet somehow want this to exist without RNG.

    When you figure that out... call me.. we can market that to a game company as a alternative to Lootboxes.
    Not very quick on the uptake are ya? 

    Something can be rare and be only available via game play IN GAME and still have RNG without there ever being lootboxes...oh wait your argument just went down the drain......

    The reason for wanting certain items is irrelevant, the issues is people do want certain items for various XYZ reason which are all valid, but alas those items can only be acquired via a lootbox via real money predatory gambling mechanics.

    Lets take YOUR reasoning a step further....all issues players have is because they even WANT to play video games so maybe the should stop being DUMB get some self control and quit video games altogether!!!!!

    No,. you just showed how naive my opponents are.

    We all understand that a game company needs to make money, and thus what is sold needs to be desirable, if the best most sought after items are purely in-game, how pray tell do you expect the company to generate income?

    Now, I am sure you are stumped at this point. Perhaps throw out some cry about a sub fee or what have you, but, lets be real, nowhere near enough people pay into that system for it to be a viable alternative.

    It also shows me that my opponents are fully supportive of escalating the addicting nature of games that suck peoples life away farming content for loot, so this is not about addiction, or protecting anyone, this is about a personal hate for lootboxes, but why the hate?

    I think the hate stems from the fact that Lootboxes are an effective means to get people to spend money they otherwise would not.

    And that is their own fault, if more people simply spent money on games to keep them funded they would not need to find ways to entice people to spend even more money.

    So really, this problem stems from a segment of the game community that thinks they can magically make a game and keep it running for free.

    Welcome to reality, and until people start voting for what they want, they will be stuck with what other people are willing to accept.

    ... and I have no issues with games, I play them for the enjoyment of them. Saying we should quit games as a means of self control is like saying we should give up electricity as a means of self control, it's a foolish notion.

    But you have one point, if someone is dealing with game addiction, they should seek help.
    Hogwash.  Your strawman here doesn't... cut it.

    I have never said anywhere games should be free and that companies shouldn't be making money.  Games made plenty of money before the advent of f2p, cash shop and lastly lootboxes...they just didn't make as much money aka their profit margins were smaller.  That's why the sub model started dying ......companies saw there was much more phat cash to be made with cash shops and then lootboxes.

    No they Didn't.. hence the rise of F2P, cash shops and lootboxes to start with. 

    If anyone in this discussion is really expecting a game company to willingly make less money, they are delusional to how the real world works.

    At this point, one of us is not worth responding to, I'll give you that.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 3,320
    Ungood said:
    laserit said:
    Eldurian said:
    laserit said:
    Eldurian said:
    laserit said:

    A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

    Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



    The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

    The majority of online gamers are adults.

    The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

    Stop lying.
    A major percentage (second highest group) of your graph are children.

    I said:

    "A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children."

    reading comprehension

    Bullshit nothing


    That graph is every game from lego racers and angry birds to Leisure Suit Larry and Postal 2. Do you honestly think that when you

    A. Exclude offline titles.
    B. Exclude anyone who doesn't buy lootboxes.

    that the ratio of children to adults is going to go up?
    I honestly believe that predatory monetization should be kept away from children.

    If children are a small insignificant fraction of loot box sales maybe the companies involved can provide that data.

    If they have no idea than I'd say we have a problem.

    Maybe one day if you ever hold your own son or daughter you would most likely understand where I'm coming from.

    Some are so far gone they could give a fuck about their own kids never mind anyone else's.
    Again.. their Data is that Every Account is made by Legal Adult, and under the control of a Legal Adult, as only a legal adult has the authority to sign an EULA. if at any time they become informed that a minor has created an account without the expressed approval of their legal parent or guardian by law they have to shut down the account.

    It's not a Game Company's responsibly to raise other peoples children, and, chances are, if someone is not raising their children well, there is a good chance their are other companies that are preying upon them as well, as they might not be the brightest bulbs in the lamp.
    Your legal theory is wrong. This falls under the same concept of checking an ID at a bar or having sex with a minor. Having a minor self-certify they are of age does not allow you to serve them. If the minor goes to great lengths such as providing a realistic false ID then the minor could theoretically be held accountable, but simply typing in a random birthday does not pass that test.

    What is interesting is that if a company is advised that they have entered into a contract with a minor they need to end it and also refund all purchases no matter what their refund policy.  This is whether they knowingly served a minor or not.

    Not at all, because the MMO content itself is not age restricted, this purely a matter of being able to sign a Legal Document like an EULA. This venture, it is not that an MMO is banning or barring a minor, but that an Adult must sign the EULA for the account to be valid, and most MMO's only allow a minor to play through the account of their Legal Guardians or Parents, as most (if not all) MMO EULA's forbid account sharing. Unlike a Bar where a Parent cannot give consent for their child to enter.

    Also, a refund, is only with a company that knowingly enters a contract with a minor, and even then, there are many issues with that. But in the case with an EULA and a MMO, since there is no allowance for a minor to sign the EULA with any MMO, as such, the account becomes void if at any time the MMO company discovers that the EULA was not signed by an Adult or legalized by an Adult, and as far as the minor goers, as opposed to a refund, they and their parents can actually be charged with fraud, as passing off as an adult when you are not one, is illegal.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:

    Would you let your kid walk into a casino give him your CC and say have it it son? IF not why allow so in game...
    Nope. I wouldn't hand them my credit card (largely because I don't have one) in a casino but I might hand them their allowance cash and tell them they can use it to gamble if they want to, so they can learn an important life lesson about the house always winning. That's of course if it were legal, which I feel it should be.

    I also wouldn't hand them my credit card and tell them to go crazy in-game, but if they want to try lootboxes I might let them hand me over the cash for the lootboxes and then get them some with my debit card so they can learn an important life lesson about RNG sucking.
    Asm0deus said:
    Eldurian said:
    Thankfully, I'm relatively sure this is going to get decided on the state level instead of the national one. So blue states can continue operating as babysitters for their residents and I will comfortably live somewhere that doesn't tell me when it is and isn't ok to breathe.

    Ah lastly we get to the route of the problem.... you're not really thinking of the problem and issues for yourself...your just spouting the pro state, anti federal line you've been spoon fed cause we all know federal regulation always are bad bad bad but state ones are heaven sent and the bad federal people are out to get us but every statesman and every state law is pure as driven snow and so incorruptible.....lol
    You apparently missed the point of federalism in history class. Let me recap it for you. The states wanted to govern themselves and not be told how to live by the federal government. As such the federal government was given extremely limited powers.

    The states aren't infallible and sacrosanct, but there are 50 of them. So you can live in the kind of place you want to live, I can live in the kind of place I want to live. This argument is a great illustration of why. You and I will never be happy living in a place with the same laws because you feel the need to use government as a tool to control other people, and I believe that if there is no victim there should be no crime.
    That's a fallacy.  You live in the state that you either grew up in, or provides the best opportunity for your career.  A very very small percentage of Americans live anywhere solely because that's where they want to live above all else.

    As far as red state/blue state, get real.  Conservatives have always been about controlling other people, much moreso than liberals.
    Asm0deuscraftseeker

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,625
    Nope.  Or I should say only partially correct.  But rather than just repeating everything I said that you refuse to believe I’ll just re-emphasize that: As soon as lootboxes become gambling this self-certification is no protection for a company.  It’s is exactly like asking someone entering a bar if they are legal and just taking their word.  That’s meaningless.

    As I said, Eldutians figures show 28% are minors.  Even if it’s a fraction of that... it means a company should know kids are using their service.  Self identification is not a valid way of restricting access.

    Its OK.  Change is coming.  As soon as lootboxes are acknowledged as gambling you will see dramatic changes.

    We can do better. We will do better.
    laseritcameltosiscraftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Nope.  Or I should say only partially correct.  But rather than just repeating everything I said that you refuse to believe I’ll just re-emphasize that: As soon as lootboxes become gambling this self-certification is no protection for a company.  It’s is exactly like asking someone entering a bar if they are legal and just taking their word.  That’s meaningless.

    As I said, Eldutians figures show 28% are minors.  Even if it’s a fraction of that... it means a company should know kids are using their service.  Self identification is not a valid way of restricting access.

    Its OK.  Change is coming.  As soon as lootboxes are acknowledged as gambling you will see dramatic changes.

    We can do better. We will do better.
    Again. That is 28% of all gamers of all games. Here is another stat:



    So:

    A. It is a pretty safe assumption that when excluding offline games, that you also exclude many younger players.

    B. 91% of parents are present when their kid is purchasing any game / 95% are monitoring the games they play. These stats likely are higher when it comes to online purchases which are most conveniently made with a credit or debit card.

    So even if you reject A, and B and assume the 95% of parents monitoring what their kids play wouldn't know if their kids had a loot box addiction

    28*.09= 2.52%

    So worst case scenario, 2.52% of online gamers are children who do not have adult supervision when making purchases. Again, this is highly unlikely, and likely a very inflated number... but it's 2.52%.

    Now of the 2.52% or less of online gamers who are children making unsupervised purchases. Care to wager what percentage of them would be able to spend a significant quantity of money on these purchases without alerting their parents to the fact a bunch of money is suddenly missing?

    Something tells me the at maximum 2.52% who are kids making unsupervised purchases and at maximum 1.4% who kids who's parents aren't monitoring what they play overwhelmingly fall into the high quantity of free to play gamers who don't pay into the games they play. Probably not even so much from responsibility as lack of resources.

    I'll let you in on a little secret.

    THESE DEVELOPERS ARE TARGETING PEOPLE WITH MONEY!!!

    That's not unsupervised kids. 

    craftseeker
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,885
    Did you ever notice when you to a grocery store at the checkout they always have candy at the checkout and at eye level to toddlers and kids. You know they are targeting children with that right? When McDonald's has happy meals and cereal boxes have those stupid toys they are targeting children with shitty food choices. 

    I don't think loot boxes are targeting children, they are targeting people like me with addictive personalities and money to burn. 
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,625
    Your math is pulled out if your ass and totally ignores gamecards and gift cards.And your 91% figures says parents are present when games are purchased or rented.  82% get permission which means 18% don’t.  It’s also highly unlikely to be accurate.... but guess what? 

    Once lootboxes are acknowledged as gambling all your made up arguments are meaningless.  It will be the company’s responsibility to prevent access by minors.  Just like bars and alcohol, just like casinos and gambling, just like anything else.

    Change is on the way.
    We can do better.
    We WILL do better.
    craftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,625
    Also.  If what Eldurian says is true and it’s a small percent of kids then it should not be a big financial impact to restrict them.  It’s a win win!


    craftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited May 2018
    Did you ever notice when you to a grocery store at the checkout they always have candy at the checkout and at eye level to toddlers and kids. You know they are targeting children with that right? When McDonald's has happy meals and cereal boxes have those stupid toys they are targeting children with shitty food choices. 

    I don't think loot boxes are targeting children, they are targeting people like me with addictive personalities and money to burn. 
    With the examples given you're talking small purchases. The intent is the kid sees the candy says "Mommy I want this!" the parent looks at the price tag says "Well that's pretty cheap and it will stop them from throwing a fit." and then makes the purchase.

    The intent with loot boxes is you spend 5 bucks, don't get what you want, spend 5 more bucks, and keep spending and spending until you get what you want. This of course makes many small 5 buck purchases add up to a very large number.

    Your 30 year old gamer who just got their paycheck is very susceptible to this.

    A 16 year old might be susceptible to they have hundreds of dollars or game cards they went and bought without parental consent. But where the heck does the average 16 year old get hundreds of dollars in-game cards? Likely they are either limited by their own income, or they are going to have to ask their parent "Hey, can I have some more money to spend on this game?" every few minutes until they get what they want.

    What parent is going to just continue being like "Ok Bobby, here is some more money." without asking additional questions?
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    @Slapshot1188 - The parent who doesn't have time to supervise their kid's gaming activities is the parent who is working 3 jobs to keep them clothed and fed. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

    I'm 100% aware of gamecards and giftcards. Where the hell do you think unsupervised teens would get the money for one?

    Your position absolutely ignores all known knowledge about the demographics of gamers as well as socio-economics and disposable incomes.

    Again. This is about you, this is about your preferences, and this is about using children as a human shield to give yourself the image of being a white knight.

    Because the only other reasonable conclusion I could make is you are a complete idiot, and I actually don't believe that to be the case.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,625
    Like most of your other posts... wrong.

    Its OK though.

    Change is coming
    We can do better
    We WILL do better.
    craftseeker

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  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,885
    You want to know what's funny. 

    Entropia Universe lootboxes or strongboxes as they are called are the most legit of all lootboxes. You pay $5 bucks for a lootbox and you get $5 worth of shit guaranteed. You can get lucky and get something worth $1000 :)

    Also, many of the strongbox items can sell for more than they are bought so you end up making a profit off of it. 

    Cryomatrix
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited May 2018
    Like most of your other posts... wrong.

    Its OK though.

    Change is coming
    We can do better
    We WILL do better.
    Yet you have yet to bring any stats to this argument, your positions are just based on throwing out random assertions most of which I've shut down using sourced data at this point, and then throwing out a made up political slogan.

    I guess it's frustrating you won't be honest and admit your argument as been absolutely torn to shreds, but this is such a great illustration of the typical leftist argument tactic. When the facts don't line up with your feelings, resort to chanting catch phrases.

    This is the kind of crap that angered right wing reactionaries enough to show up to the primaries and the general en masse and hand us our current president.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    You want to know what's funny. 

    Entropia Universe lootboxes or strongboxes as they are called are the most legit of all lootboxes. You pay $5 bucks for a lootbox and you get $5 worth of shit guaranteed. You can get lucky and get something worth $1000 :)

    Also, many of the strongbox items can sell for more than they are bought so you end up making a profit off of it. 

    Cryomatrix
    That seems a bit to good to be true. If they are 5$ and you are guaranteed to get 5$ of stuff then there seems to be 0 risk involved. You theoretically should be able to buy, sell, buy, sell, buy, sell until you win and then you have made 995$ profit.

    There has to be a catch.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,266
    Eldurian said:
    Nope.  Or I should say only partially correct.  But rather than just repeating everything I said that you refuse to believe I’ll just re-emphasize that: As soon as lootboxes become gambling this self-certification is no protection for a company.  It’s is exactly like asking someone entering a bar if they are legal and just taking their word.  That’s meaningless.

    As I said, Eldutians figures show 28% are minors.  Even if it’s a fraction of that... it means a company should know kids are using their service.  Self identification is not a valid way of restricting access.

    Its OK.  Change is coming.  As soon as lootboxes are acknowledged as gambling you will see dramatic changes.

    We can do better. We will do better.
    Again. That is 28% of all gamers of all games. Here is another stat:



    So:

    A. It is a pretty safe assumption that when excluding offline games, that you also exclude many younger players.

    B. 91% of parents are present when their kid is purchasing any game / 95% are monitoring the games they play. These stats likely are higher when it comes to online purchases which are most conveniently made with a credit or debit card.

    So even if you reject A, and B and assume the 95% of parents monitoring what their kids play wouldn't know if their kids had a loot box addiction

    28*.09= 2.52%

    So worst case scenario, 2.52% of online gamers are children who do not have adult supervision when making purchases. Again, this is highly unlikely, and likely a very inflated number... but it's 2.52%.

    Now of the 2.52% or less of online gamers who are children making unsupervised purchases. Care to wager what percentage of them would be able to spend a significant quantity of money on these purchases without alerting their parents to the fact a bunch of money is suddenly missing?

    Something tells me the at maximum 2.52% who are kids making unsupervised purchases and at maximum 1.4% who kids who's parents aren't monitoring what they play overwhelmingly fall into the high quantity of free to play gamers who don't pay into the games they play. Probably not even so much from responsibility as lack of resources.

    I'll let you in on a little secret.

    THESE DEVELOPERS ARE TARGETING PEOPLE WITH MONEY!!!

    That's not unsupervised kids. 

    Can you please post up an actual link for your jpeg.

    Pictures are nice and all, but sources are much more useful

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited May 2018
    Also.  If what Eldurian says is true and it’s a small percent of kids then it should not be a big financial impact to restrict them.  It’s a win win!
    Absolutely. If you can find a solution that restricts it for unsupervised kids without restricting it or making it a major pain in the butt for adults, or telling them how to parent their children I'm 100% behind that.

    But given that I've already agreed I'm fine with raising the ESRB rating on games with elements of gambling in them, and restricting the sale of game cards the same as the ESRB rating as the game they are for (If that's not how it already works) that doesn't seem to be what you are after.

    It seems to be a red herring you are throwing out in your quest to have lootboxes banned entirely, in every form. 
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,266
    Eldurian said:
    Nope.  Or I should say only partially correct.  But rather than just repeating everything I said that you refuse to believe I’ll just re-emphasize that: As soon as lootboxes become gambling this self-certification is no protection for a company.  It’s is exactly like asking someone entering a bar if they are legal and just taking their word.  That’s meaningless.

    As I said, Eldutians figures show 28% are minors.  Even if it’s a fraction of that... it means a company should know kids are using their service.  Self identification is not a valid way of restricting access.

    Its OK.  Change is coming.  As soon as lootboxes are acknowledged as gambling you will see dramatic changes.

    We can do better. We will do better.
    Again. That is 28% of all gamers of all games. Here is another stat:



    So:

    A. It is a pretty safe assumption that when excluding offline games, that you also exclude many younger players.

    B. 91% of parents are present when their kid is purchasing any game / 95% are monitoring the games they play. These stats likely are higher when it comes to online purchases which are most conveniently made with a credit or debit card.

    So even if you reject A, and B and assume the 95% of parents monitoring what their kids play wouldn't know if their kids had a loot box addiction

    28*.09= 2.52%

    So worst case scenario, 2.52% of online gamers are children who do not have adult supervision when making purchases. Again, this is highly unlikely, and likely a very inflated number... but it's 2.52%.

    Now of the 2.52% or less of online gamers who are children making unsupervised purchases. Care to wager what percentage of them would be able to spend a significant quantity of money on these purchases without alerting their parents to the fact a bunch of money is suddenly missing?

    Something tells me the at maximum 2.52% who are kids making unsupervised purchases and at maximum 1.4% who kids who's parents aren't monitoring what they play overwhelmingly fall into the high quantity of free to play gamers who don't pay into the games they play. Probably not even so much from responsibility as lack of resources.

    I'll let you in on a little secret.

    THESE DEVELOPERS ARE TARGETING PEOPLE WITH MONEY!!!

    That's not unsupervised kids. 

    @Eldurian ;

    Got a source for your jpeg?

    I find the "95% of parents pay attention to the content of the games their children play" dubious at best.

    I sincerely hope that, that kind of percentage of parents pay that amount of attention to their children's education but I highly doubt it.
    MendelSlapshot1188Scot

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

This discussion has been closed.