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Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

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Comments

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    If my taxes didn't have to go to social programs for gambling addiction I couldn't care less.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Eldurian said:
    Eldurian said:

    I can't quantify the odds but I know they aren't good so I don't play their lootbox game. That's how I avoid their "patented code". But honestly casinos do publish their odds. Odds are, you lose. People still play.

    Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    People know that and yet they choose to play the game. The only people who care about those odds are people who would never play anyway.
    Not true at all.  When I hit a casino, I play mostly roullette because it has some of the highest odds of winning.  If I get up, I'll use that cash to play a higher stakes game for a little more adrenaline knowing it's borrowed money anyways.
    So tell me. What are your net profits from gambling?

    Gambling has the same odds every time. You lose, house wins.

    It's just about how long it takes to get there.
    That's...  VERY black and white.  To the point of being erroneous Eldurian.

    image
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,115
    edited May 2018
    Ungood said:
    ....snip.....

    I see you missed my example of how Outfits are still sold directly, mainly because they still sell enough to keep selling them that way.

    In most games, there are often a selection of items you can just buy, and items you get from RNG. If more people bought the items you can just buy, they would sell more of those items because that is what sells.

    Case in point, in GW2, they sold Endless Harvesting Items, I bought them, when they made an RNG augment to them, I didn't buy those, but I still bought the items that were not RNG.

    Sure, Lootboxes won't go away, but, by and large, game company backers would not cling to them like holy grail of money making like they do now, they would be willing to peruse other methods.
    I see you missed my point.

    Doesn't matter if some stuff like cosmetics is sold straight up if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only.  See SWL where you can only get certain cosmetics in the lootboxes but even more so certain weapons such a anima touched, frost bound, fire touched etc etc weapons. 

    Just because something is sold straight up in the cash shop and you buy stuff there and avoid lootboxes it doesn't mean that they will suddenly stop selling lootboxes especially if they make sure certain items only come out of the lootboxes.

    If companies got rid of lootboxes those items might be available straight up for sale in the cash shop rather than forcing you to "gamble" for them via a lootbox. 

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Asm0deus said:


    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:

    I think you are mistaking "crying" with speaking out so the people that WE VOTED IN hear us, hear our concerns and thus represent us properly...you know the whole basis of democracy, maybe you would prefer things were like in North Korea and "whiners" were dealt with harshly for speaking out?
    Good thing that in a REPUBLIC there is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority.
    Your word of the day is it?

    The USA is both as it's a Constitutional Federal Republic. In other words a federation of states with a Representative Democracy.
     
    It's not purely one or the other.

    A representative democracy is when you vote in people who can research the issues better than you can to represent you. Our representatives represent our interest to our constitutional republic AKA "There is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority."

    Your government is meant to address issues in a way that everyone is treated fairly because they represent many diverse groups.

    If you say "Lootboxes should be banned because they decay the fabric of society!!!" then it's their job to say "Yeah well the evangelicals are telling me gay marriage decays the fabric of our society, Mothers Against Video game Addiction are telling me to ban all games because it decays the fabric of our society, PETA is telling me eating me decays the fabric of our society, and someone is telling me that (insert minority group here) living in their neighborhoods and marrying their women is decaying the fabric of our society." "Maybe you should all just respect eachother's rights and that you have different preferences rather than thinking I should do exactly what you tell me to do because I'm you're representative."
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:


    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:

    I think you are mistaking "crying" with speaking out so the people that WE VOTED IN hear us, hear our concerns and thus represent us properly...you know the whole basis of democracy, maybe you would prefer things were like in North Korea and "whiners" were dealt with harshly for speaking out?
    Good thing that in a REPUBLIC there is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority.
    Your word of the day is it?

    The USA is both as it's a Constitutional Federal Republic. In other words a federation of states with a Representative Democracy.
     
    It's not purely one or the other.

    A representative democracy is when you vote in people who can research the issues better than you can to represent you. Our representatives represent our interest to our constitutional republic AKA "There is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority."

    Your government is meant to address issues in a way that everyone is treated fairly because they represent many diverse groups.

    If you say "Lootboxes should be banned because they decay the fabric of society!!!" then it's their job to say "Yeah well the evangelicals are telling me gay marriage decays the fabric of our society, Mothers Against Video game Addiction are telling me to ban all games because it decays the fabric of our society, PETA is telling me eating me decays the fabric of our society, and someone is telling me that (insert minority group here) living in their neighborhoods and marrying their women is decaying the fabric of our society." "Maybe you should all just respect eachother's rights and that you have different preferences rather than thinking I should do exactly what you tell me to do because I'm you're representative."
    Comparing resistance to predatory monetization and marketing to religious persecution isn't a good argument.
    Asm0deusSlapshot1188craftseeker

    image
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Eldurian said:

    So tell me. What are your net profits from gambling?

    Gambling has the same odds every time. You lose, house wins.

    It's just about how long it takes to get there.
    That's...  VERY black and white.  To the point of being erroneous Eldurian.
    It really is about that black and white. Whether you gamble until you run out of money, or gamble until you spend your gambling limit, with any longterm gambling, the house wins, and you lose.


    Ungood
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    I remember when FunCon started with loot boxes. They would list everything you could win before you bought one. They had a single loot box and a bundle of boxes.

    The text was so small it was hard to see that the super rare stuff was only available in the bundle.

    Listing the rare stuff on the single box was very misleading. Intentional of course.
    laserit
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    Eldurian said:

    So tell me. What are your net profits from gambling?

    Gambling has the same odds every time. You lose, house wins.

    It's just about how long it takes to get there.
    That's...  VERY black and white.  To the point of being erroneous Eldurian.
    It really is about that black and white. Whether you gamble until you run out of money, or gamble until you spend your gambling limit, with any longterm gambling, the house wins, and you lose.


    You tried to oversimplify that into generalizing the odds, which is silly.  Fact is, there are folks who develop gambling skills.  Show me the first pro lootbox opener who makes his/her living opening lootboxes for their winnings and I'll kiss your ass.
    Asm0deuslaserit

    image
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,115
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:


    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:

    I think you are mistaking "crying" with speaking out so the people that WE VOTED IN hear us, hear our concerns and thus represent us properly...you know the whole basis of democracy, maybe you would prefer things were like in North Korea and "whiners" were dealt with harshly for speaking out?
    Good thing that in a REPUBLIC there is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority.
    Your word of the day is it?

    The USA is both as it's a Constitutional Federal Republic. In other words a federation of states with a Representative Democracy.
     
    It's not purely one or the other.

    A representative democracy is when you vote in people who can research the issues better than you can to represent you. Our representatives represent our interest to our constitutional republic AKA "There is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority."

    Your government is meant to address issues in a way that everyone is treated fairly because they represent many diverse groups.

    If you say "Lootboxes should be banned because they decay the fabric of society!!!" then it's their job to say "Yeah well the evangelicals are telling me gay marriage decays the fabric of our society, Mothers Against Video game Addiction are telling me to ban all games because it decays the fabric of our society, PETA is telling me eating me decays the fabric of our society, and someone is telling me that (insert minority group here) living in their neighborhoods and marrying their women is decaying the fabric of our society." "Maybe you should all just respect eachother's rights and that you have different preferences rather than thinking I should do exactly what you tell me to do because I'm you're representative."
    I have always said lootboxes are a predatory practice. I feel it's a predatory practice because companies studied how gambling works to be able to incorporate it into a very new fledgling industry after studying ways to bypass certain laws.

    You seem to think because certain people or group have views you dislike they somehow are subverting your rights... that is false. They are trying to make sure their right are upheld and in this case "we" are trying to make sure existing laws, that were made before this new industry, are not left by the highway.

    Forget the minutia of government for a moment, as it seems to confuse you and send you into political bible thumping,  if you really believe people should live and let live then like me you should have no problem to take yourself to a casino to do your gambling, or a strip club to dink your liquor and put 20's down someone panties.  No one is trying to take that right away from you but I also have the right not to see such malarky when I am in the local park/playground with my son.

    Go to the appropriate venue for each appropriate activity.

    For example I wont go to a Brazilian Steakhouse if I am a vegetarian and then complain there people eating meat but likewise I wont go to an all vege restaurant then complain, "goddamn there's no meat on the menu where's my damned rights as a full fledged carnivore!!!!!!"


    Right now these practices are fairly new in the greater scheme of things but eventually people will wake up and laws will catch up.  Nothing wrong with either side making their voice heard but being that we do have a voice and we can make ourselves heard don't expect the issue to go away.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 3,320
    Asm0deus said:

    Doesn't matter if some stuff like cosmetics is sold straight up if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only.  
    I want you to read this a few times over.

    No.. really.. read what you said.

    "if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only"

    Now, think of this.. something can only be "rare" if there is a small chance to get it, ergo, if they just sold the item in the store, it would no longer be "Most rare" item.

    So, the problem is not the game, it is the players who want a "rare" item.. and yet somehow want this to exist without RNG.

    When you figure that out... call me.. we can market that to a game company as a alternative to Lootboxes.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Ungood said:
    Asm0deus said:

    Doesn't matter if some stuff like cosmetics is sold straight up if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only.  
    I want you to read this a few times over.

    No.. really.. read what you said.

    "if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only"

    Now, think of this.. something can only be "rare" if there is a small chance to get it, ergo, if they just sold the item in the store, it would no longer be "Most rare" item.

    So, the problem is not the game, it is the players who want a "rare" item.. and yet somehow want this to exist without RNG.

    When you figure that out... call me.. we can market that to a game company as a alternative to Lootboxes.
    Wha?  Stop generalizing.  I don't care about getting anything in an MMORPG solely for the rarity.  If it's useless to me in the content I play, it's useless whether there's one or a million of them.

    image
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,115
    edited May 2018
    Ungood said:
    Asm0deus said:

    Doesn't matter if some stuff like cosmetics is sold straight up if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only.  
    I want you to read this a few times over.

    No.. really.. read what you said.

    "if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only"

    Now, think of this.. something can only be "rare" if there is a small chance to get it, ergo, if they just sold the item in the store, it would no longer be "Most rare" item.

    So, the problem is not the game, it is the players who want a "rare" item.. and yet somehow want this to exist without RNG.

    When you figure that out... call me.. we can market that to a game company as a alternative to Lootboxes.
    Not very quick on the uptake are ya? 

    Something can be rare and be only available via game play IN GAME and still have RNG without there ever being lootboxes...oh wait your argument just went down the drain......

    The reason for wanting certain items is irrelevant, the issues is people do want certain items for various XYZ reason which are all valid, but alas those items can only be acquired via a lootbox via real money predatory gambling mechanics.

    Lets take YOUR reasoning a step further....all issues players have is because they even WANT to play video games so maybe the should stop being DUMB get some self control and quit video games altogether!!!!!

    laserit

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    Rare items are a scam. I laugh at the people who spend money for that super rare item just for the devs to offer it later for a small price in the cash shop or give it away for free as an anniversary gift.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Asm0deus said:

    You seem to think because certain people or group have views you dislike they somehow are subverting your rights... that is false. They are trying to make sure their right are upheld and in this case "we" are trying to make sure existing laws, that were made before this new industry, are not left by the highway.
    No. I in this case, am protecting the rights of a group I do not belong to (gamblers / people who buy lootboxes) to do something they enjoy. Regardless of the fact I think it's idiotic and have never and will never do it myself. Because I support the right of people to make their own decisions.

    YOU are trying to take away other people's rights.

    How does telling someone else that they can't do something / telling companies they cannot make products the way they want protect YOUR rights when you are under no obligation to do those things and buy those products.

    What right of yours is being violated? 

    This isn't about your rights. It's about you trampling on other people's rights.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Asm0deus said:

    Forget the minutia of government for a moment, as it seems to confuse you and send you into political bible thumping,  if you really believe people should live and let live then like me you should have no problem to take yourself to a casino to do your gambling, or a strip club to dink your liquor and put 20's down someone panties.  No one is trying to take that right away from you but I also have the right not to see such malarky when I am in the local park/playground with my son.

    Go to the appropriate venue for each appropriate activity.
    People are doing this from the privacy of their own homes. What venue could be less intrusive to your rights?
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,266
    Eldurian said:
    Eldurian said:

    So tell me. What are your net profits from gambling?

    Gambling has the same odds every time. You lose, house wins.

    It's just about how long it takes to get there.
    That's...  VERY black and white.  To the point of being erroneous Eldurian.
    It really is about that black and white. Whether you gamble until you run out of money, or gamble until you spend your gambling limit, with any longterm gambling, the house wins, and you lose.


    You tried to oversimplify that into generalizing the odds, which is silly.  Fact is, there are folks who develop gambling skills.  Show me the first pro lootbox opener who makes his/her living opening lootboxes for their winnings and I'll kiss your ass.
    I'll pay for the flight ;)
    MadFrenchie

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,625
    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:

    You seem to think because certain people or group have views you dislike they somehow are subverting your rights... that is false. They are trying to make sure their right are upheld and in this case "we" are trying to make sure existing laws, that were made before this new industry, are not left by the highway.
    No. I in this case, am protecting the rights of a group I do not belong to (gamblers / people who buy lootboxes) to do something they enjoy. Regardless of the fact I think it's idiotic and have never and will never do it myself. Because I support the right of people to make their own decisions.

    YOU are trying to take away other people's rights.

    How does telling someone else that they can't do something / telling companies they cannot make products the way they want protect YOUR rights when you are under no obligation to do those things and buy those products.

    What right of yours is being violated? 

    This isn't about your rights. It's about you trampling on other people's rights.
    There is no right to sell gambling boxes to children.  Just like there is no right to have sex with a minor and get them drunk.  It is the company's responsibility to insure their product is not sold to a child. Just like a bar is responsible for selling alcohol to someone under age, even if they say they are 21.  Just like an adult would get in trouble for having sex with a minor, even if the minor said they were 18.  Self-Certification does not absolve a company of this.

    Most of us understand that. Someday, when you have more space from your own childhood you will probably understand too.


    Asm0deuslaserit

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,115
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:

    You seem to think because certain people or group have views you dislike they somehow are subverting your rights... that is false. They are trying to make sure their right are upheld and in this case "we" are trying to make sure existing laws, that were made before this new industry, are not left by the highway.
    No. I in this case, am protecting the rights of a group I do not belong to (gamblers / people who buy lootboxes) to do something they enjoy. Regardless of the fact I think it's idiotic and have never and will never do it myself. Because I support the right of people to make their own decisions.

    YOU are trying to take away other people's rights.

    How does telling someone else that they can't do something / telling companies they cannot make products the way they want protect YOUR rights when you are under no obligation to do those things and buy those products.

    What right of yours is being violated? 

    This isn't about your rights. It's about you trampling on other people's rights.
    No.  You are confused.  You even admit it is gambling.  There are laws concerning gambling which already exist namely gambling is to be done in certain environment only, such as a casino and they have to follow certain rules.  Websites that offer gambling also have certain rules to follow to even be allowed to operate.  These are facts.

    Furthermore they are not just doing it from thier home but they are actually gambling in game in an online community.

    If lootboxes are indeed gambling as many of us believe THEN they are violating/avoiding gambling laws that are not up to date and  never considered gambling would be done in video games.

    If people want to gamble go for it BUT it should be done in an appropriate place.

    I will set you a challenge......go try and twitch some light porn of you and whom ever getting busy and showing skin on twitch and see how long that lasts before you are banned and do so right from the comfort of your own home.

    What you are arguing is essentially you should be allowed to do that on twitch because Ma Rights!

    What we are arguing is if people want to gamble with lootboxes then go so on an online gambling websites and go open lootboxes there!



    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,266
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    Asm0deus said:

    You seem to think because certain people or group have views you dislike they somehow are subverting your rights... that is false. They are trying to make sure their right are upheld and in this case "we" are trying to make sure existing laws, that were made before this new industry, are not left by the highway.
    No. I in this case, am protecting the rights of a group I do not belong to (gamblers / people who buy lootboxes) to do something they enjoy. Regardless of the fact I think it's idiotic and have never and will never do it myself. Because I support the right of people to make their own decisions.

    YOU are trying to take away other people's rights.

    How does telling someone else that they can't do something / telling companies they cannot make products the way they want protect YOUR rights when you are under no obligation to do those things and buy those products.

    What right of yours is being violated? 

    This isn't about your rights. It's about you trampling on other people's rights.
    The right for a kid to be a kid without some greedy fuck always trying to take them for every thing they can.

    A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

    It's up to the industry to come up with a practical way to make these style of games for Adults.

    @Ungood ;

    How does the online gambling industry keep minors out of their games? Why won't video game companies use something stronger then the current joke of a measure.

    Sorry but your EULA doesn't absolve you of all your responsibility no matter how much you wet dream it to be true.
    Asm0deuscraftseeker

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited May 2018
    There is no right to sell gambling boxes to children.  Just like there is no right to have sex with a minor and get them drunk.  It is the company's responsibility to insure their product is not sold to a child. Just like a bar is responsible for selling alcohol to someone under age, even if they say they are 21.  Just like an adult would get in trouble for having sex with a minor, even if the minor said they were 18.  Self-Certification does not absolve a company of this.

    Most of us understand that. Someday, when you have more space from your own childhood you will probably understand too.
    I worked in senior care for several years before coming back to school to pursue another career field. I will be 30 this November so cut the "kiddo" bullshit. 

    Anyway, can you answer me two questions.

    1. Define what you consider gambling to be in the context of online gaming. Lets set aside lootboxes for a moment because the issue as you attempt to convey it is "Don't let the childruns gamble!!!"

    2. Describe a solution to me in which the online companies can prevent children from gambling that does not restrict the rights of adults.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    laserit said:

    A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

    Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



    The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

    The majority of online gamers are adults.

    The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

    Stop lying.
    craftseeker
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,115
    Eldurian said:
    There is no right to sell gambling boxes to children.  Just like there is no right to have sex with a minor and get them drunk.  It is the company's responsibility to insure their product is not sold to a child. Just like a bar is responsible for selling alcohol to someone under age, even if they say they are 21.  Just like an adult would get in trouble for having sex with a minor, even if the minor said they were 18.  Self-Certification does not absolve a company of this.

    Most of us understand that. Someday, when you have more space from your own childhood you will probably understand too.
    I worked in senior care for several years before coming back to school to pursue another career field. I will be 30 this November so cut the "kiddo" bullshit. 

    Anyway, can you answer me two questions.

    1. Define what you consider gambling to be in the context of online gaming. Lets set aside lootboxes for a moment because the issue as you attempt to convey it is "Don't let the childruns gamble!!!"

    2. Describe a solution to me in which the online companies can prevent children from gambling that does not restrict the rights of adults.
    You see that is the problem you and others are failing to address.  THe Gambling laws in the USA right now can vary from state to state due to their being federal AND various different state laws concerning it.

    Not only that gambling laws right now are not totally up to date because, and I mentioned this previously, online gambling is a relatively new thing in the grand scheme of things.  Lots of the acts concerning gambling are kind of old like the The Interstate Wire Act of 196.

    What we are seeing with Belgium is an attempt to get these laws updated to 2018 standards, it's bound to take awhile and I am sure there will be faux steps made but things do need to change and laws made that take these new technologies into account.

    It's a no brainer evolution to an evolving society.



    laserit

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Right but define it for me. What should we expand this new definition of gambling to include? Just tell me what you personally think that definition should be.
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,115
    edited May 2018
    Eldurian said:
    laserit said:

    A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

    Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



    The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

    The majority of online gamers are adults.

    The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

    Stop lying.
    So what? You have admitted that you think lootboxes are gambling so....
    US Gambling Law Legal US Gambling sites and Guide To Gambling Laws The US Government have been very slow to react to online gambling, in fact when gambling sites first started to appear back online in the early to mid 1990’s there was no legal stance or set of guidelines imposed on gambling sites offering their services to US based players. However this all changed in 2006 when the at the time President George Bush signed into law the Safe Ports Act which had attached to it a section making it illegal for banking institutions to allow their customers to send money to offshore gambling sites.


    That concerns traditional gambling done online only, I don't think the USA or many countries for that matter have even BEGUN to think about how some companies are doing such via online gaming be they mmo online single player games or whatnot etc etc

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    I also think the stock market is gambling. So lets go ahead and hear your definition of online gambling you would like to see banned.
This discussion has been closed.