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LFG, LFD, LFR

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
Blizzard did a lot of things right with Vanilla.  They knew how to make a living breathing world for players to live in, they also knew how people think and react in situations and made an all around fun game !! 

Until it came to Dungeons and Raids, something was lacking.  I can't say they were lazy....... Let's just say they assumed players could get together much more naturally than they did.  Every game afterward followed this template.  Reaching the same conclusion.  People frustrated in group content.  


Blizzard introduced the Dungeon finder (LFD),  
It's a fact, it sounds good on paper.  It's a fact, "many love it !!!!"........But it's also a fact, "many hate it !!!!".  
Either way, it had a major impact on the community.  Love it, hate it, It just did.  All other game followed.  So where are we now ?....Every game has the same exact problem.  Were divided in this matter in EVERY GAME. 

All this is nothing new, we all know this.  


All this could have been avoided with a WELL THOUGHT OUT SOCIAL PANEL ! 
Something for the aggressive, shy, and novice, something for everyone.  I guess it's too late
dougha1Aegirisdeniter
«13

Comments

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,268
    LFR DEFINITELY should've never happened. I'll be honestly, exclusivity is a good thing. If people aren't willing to put forth the effort to work an socialize with others, then why should they have it handed to them? Of course, you'll get those "well I just dont have the time, so LFR is good for those that want to do something fast while 'progressing' and 'keeping' up with these 'no-lifers'" which isn't an excuse for working others who are like minded and form a static to get stuff done. Well how things have been "shaping" over the past decade, mmorpgs pretty much just play themselves now or damn well close, just ending up being resource clickers or things that require 5 mins of attention to get top tier rewards. There's nothing wrong with a being a casual, but casuals have to be treated as that and not just be handed stuff, which is the main reason why people leave so much. Devs build a system for those that have little time to stay "competitive" but with all these "catch-up" mechanics, people end up playing LESS because they know they can catch up whenever they want. This also converts the more "hardcore" into "casuals" since they see their effort is minuscule in the end anyway. Slow freaking clap devs....slow freaking clap...
    deniter
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,324
    Albatroes said:
    LFR DEFINITELY should've never happened. I'll be honestly, exclusivity is a good thing. If people aren't willing to put forth the effort to work an socialize with others, then why should they have it handed to them? Of course, you'll get those "well I just dont have the time, so LFR is good for those that want to do something fast while 'progressing' and 'keeping' up with these 'no-lifers'" which isn't an excuse for working others who are like minded and form a static to get stuff done. Well how things have been "shaping" over the past decade, mmorpgs pretty much just play themselves now or damn well close, just ending up being resource clickers or things that require 5 mins of attention to get top tier rewards. There's nothing wrong with a being a casual, but casuals have to be treated as that and not just be handed stuff, which is the main reason why people leave so much. Devs build a system for those that have little time to stay "competitive" but with all these "catch-up" mechanics, people end up playing LESS because they know they can catch up whenever they want. This also converts the more "hardcore" into "casuals" since they see their effort is minuscule in the end anyway. Slow freaking clap devs....slow freaking clap...
    LFR was one of the best things the devs ever did for the game.  At one point in my life I loved raiding.  The things I didn't love about raiding was sitting around for an hour for everyone to show up, people not being ready or having the right gear ect... having to stop constantly because someone had an issue and needed to go AFK ect...  I no longer raid except for doing LFR, but as you stated I also have a real life outside of gaming and don't have the time to sit down and knock out a raid like I once did. 

    In reality it never made sense to have raids included in the story portion of the game that only a handful of the playerbase would ever get to experience.  If the raids only dropped gear and didn't have story mixed into them then fine let the elite few have at it.  LFR was one of the best things that it allows the entire playerbase to see what the devs created and the story, without giving the same reward as those that wish to do it the old way.  The idea that only those that put their entire lives into the game deserve to see any portion of a game is just ludicrous and shows the mentality of an elitist or elitism which is the worse part of gaming in my book.  You can be social in games without raiding, no game actual needs raiding at all for social aspects so just throw that out the window.   The looking for group tools in general didn't destroy anything other than people spamming chat channels over and over and getting put in my block group for spam. 

    What destroys instances and raiding is the AOE everything down mentality where mechanics don't matter at all.  When they stopped making players have to use stuns, traps, sleeps ect to even do trash the games instances and raiding became boring.  Today it is just run in group the entire instance up in one group and kill them.  Hell the tanks don't normally have to stop or need a single heal in most instances.  Even in raids the trash are crap now as it is just group them up.  Gone are the days where you had to coordinate and take on mobs one at a time with two almost killing you.  So you want to find something to gripe about when it comes to instances and raids there it is in a nut shell.

    Elitism is the worse part of gaming, and most of the people that think they are the elite are normally the worst players in the game.
    NephethJean-Luc_Picardimmodium
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    edited April 2018
    This is one of the worst things made in MMOs. It just promotes the random parties, instead the constant ones. Soon many players, and specially the newbies start to go only random, and the social aspect of the gameplay fades.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    k61977 said:
    Albatroes said:
    LFR DEFINITELY should've never happened. I'll be honestly, exclusivity is a good thing. If people aren't willing to put forth the effort to work an socialize with others, then why should they have it handed to them? Of course, you'll get those "well I just dont have the time, so LFR is good for those that want to do something fast while 'progressing' and 'keeping' up with these 'no-lifers'" which isn't an excuse for working others who are like minded and form a static to get stuff done. Well how things have been "shaping" over the past decade, mmorpgs pretty much just play themselves now or damn well close, just ending up being resource clickers or things that require 5 mins of attention to get top tier rewards. There's nothing wrong with a being a casual, but casuals have to be treated as that and not just be handed stuff, which is the main reason why people leave so much. Devs build a system for those that have little time to stay "competitive" but with all these "catch-up" mechanics, people end up playing LESS because they know they can catch up whenever they want. This also converts the more "hardcore" into "casuals" since they see their effort is minuscule in the end anyway. Slow freaking clap devs....slow freaking clap...
    LFR was one of the best things the devs ever did for the game.  At one point in my life I loved raiding.  The things I didn't love about raiding was sitting around for an hour for everyone to show up, people not being ready or having the right gear ect... having to stop constantly because someone had an issue and needed to go AFK ect...  I no longer raid except for doing LFR, but as you stated I also have a real life outside of gaming and don't have the time to sit down and knock out a raid like I once did. 

    In reality it never made sense to have raids included in the story portion of the game that only a handful of the playerbase would ever get to experience.  If the raids only dropped gear and didn't have story mixed into them then fine let the elite few have at it.  LFR was one of the best things that it allows the entire playerbase to see what the devs created and the story, without giving the same reward as those that wish to do it the old way.  The idea that only those that put their entire lives into the game deserve to see any portion of a game is just ludicrous and shows the mentality of an elitist or elitism which is the worse part of gaming in my book.  You can be social in games without raiding, no game actual needs raiding at all for social aspects so just throw that out the window.   The looking for group tools in general didn't destroy anything other than people spamming chat channels over and over and getting put in my block group for spam. 

    What destroys instances and raiding is the AOE everything down mentality where mechanics don't matter at all.  When they stopped making players have to use stuns, traps, sleeps ect to even do trash the games instances and raiding became boring.  Today it is just run in group the entire instance up in one group and kill them.  Hell the tanks don't normally have to stop or need a single heal in most instances.  Even in raids the trash are crap now as it is just group them up.  Gone are the days where you had to coordinate and take on mobs one at a time with two almost killing you.  So you want to find something to gripe about when it comes to instances and raids there it is in a nut shell.

    Elitism is the worse part of gaming, and most of the people that think they are the elite are normally the worst players in the game.

    I would like to say your right !!!! 

    50% of players think so 
    50% don't 

    This is what the LFG, LFD, and LFR did.
    I'm saying it would be better if were all 100 %
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    DMKano said:
    The reason why LFR LFD were added because this fit in how masses played - log in and be ready to have fun.

    Because setting up for a raid for 1 hour or more is what majority hated.

    same thing in having to run to a dungeon... too much time wasted.

    Remember that majority players dont want to waste a lot of time running, gettig ready etc.... 

    its all about short session gameplay and instant fun


    WoW would never be as successful for as long as it has been without adapting to majoritys wants and needs - hence LFD and LFR


    Now this doesnt mean that niche games like Pantheon should do the same - quite the contrary, as thats not what the current backers want

    50% right 
    50% wrong

    I'll not take a side 

    What I'm saying is theirs another solution where we could have all been 100%
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,092
    Blizzard did a lot of things right with Vanilla.  They knew how to make a living breathing world for players to live in, they also knew how people think and react in situations and made an all around fun game !! 

    Until it came to Dungeons and Raids, something was lacking.  I can't say they were lazy....... Let's just say they assumed players could get together much more naturally than they did.  Every game afterward followed this template.  Reaching the same conclusion.  People frustrated in group content.  


    Blizzard introduced the Dungeon finder (LFD),  
    It's a fact, it sounds good on paper.  It's a fact, "many love it !!!!"........But it's also a fact, "many hate it !!!!".  
    Either way, it had a major impact on the community.  Love it, hate it, It just did.  All other game followed.  So where are we now ?....Every game has the same exact problem.  Were divided in this matter in EVERY GAME. 

    All this is nothing new, we all know this.  


    All this could have been avoided with a WELL THOUGHT OUT SOCIAL PANEL ! 
    Something for the aggressive, shy, and novice, something for everyone.  I guess it's too late
    I haven't played WoW since Vanilla, but back then, most players treated it as a solo game and would hardly ever group for anything at all.  The problem was that if you wanted to group for anything, if you were lucky, it would take 30 minutes to assemble to assemble a PUG with random people.  Consistent groups were impossible unless you had people willing to schedule their lives around the game, which only a handful of hard-core raiders were willing to do.  And even then, that was just shy of impossible for the overwhelming majority of the game's content because the people in your chosen group would be wildly different levels so that doing the content together was completely stupid.

    It wasn't a 50/50 split between those who preferred with or without the tools to make it convenient.  It was maybe a few percent if that who preferred grouping without auto-grouping tools, with the rest of the playerbase split (not necessarily evenly) between those who preferred grouping with the tools and those who didn't care about grouping tools because they wouldn't group regardless.
    k61977
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,113
    LFD and grouping tools are not bad by themselves but when you combine them with cross server and the players are people you will never see again and nobody says anything the whole dungeon because its a faceroll AOE fest... then it becomes a problem.
    deniterk61977

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,991
    DMKano said:
    The reason why LFR LFD were added because this fit in how masses played - log in and be ready to have fun.

    Because setting up for a raid for 1 hour or more is what majority hated.

    same thing in having to run to a dungeon... too much time wasted.

    Remember that majority players dont want to waste a lot of time running, gettig ready etc.... 

    its all about short session gameplay and instant fun


    WoW would never be as successful for as long as it has been without adapting to majoritys wants and needs - hence LFD and LFR


    Now this doesnt mean that niche games like Pantheon should do the same - quite the contrary, as thats not what the current backers want

    50% right 
    50% wrong

    I'll not take a side 

    What I'm saying is theirs another solution where we could have all been 100%
    It isn't 50/50 though. It's more like 5% would prefer to wait around for an hour forming a group, the other 95% would prefer to spend their time logged-in actually playing the game.
    [Deleted User]StoneRosesNephethJean-Luc_Picard
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,092
    Nilden said:
    LFD and grouping tools are not bad by themselves but when you combine them with cross server and the players are people you will never see again and nobody says anything the whole dungeon because its a faceroll AOE fest... then it becomes a problem.
    A game that can't recruit potential group-mates from a large enough pool that most of the people you'll group with are people you'll never see again is a game that doesn't have a large enough playerbase to support group content for more than a tiny handful of hardcore players.

    Lack of communication and faceroll AOE are different issues unrelated to how groups are formed.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736

    All this could have been avoided with a WELL THOUGHT OUT SOCIAL PANEL ! 
    Something for the aggressive, shy, and novice, something for everyone.  I guess it's too late
    Expound upon this please. If you could describe a solid alternative system in more detail what you're arguing may make more sense.
    immodium
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,660
    We were all unemployed, college students, or unemployed college students at one point.
    Those who stayed unemployed or who are now retired still live in these so called "glory days."

    Somehow Black Sabbath will always be the only greatest band ever.

    Oh, look RL responsibilities plus games offering convenience. What a fucking concept!
    Jean-Luc_Picard
    MMORPGs aren't easy, You're just too PRO!
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 1,947
    I think what OP is suggesting is a social panel where you sign up and select preferences according to your play style in detail. Maybe in such great detail to the point where it could have questions asking things like 'just one quick run', 'many speed runs', 'no chatting', 'social group', 'roleplaying', 'noob group'. The finding of groups would still be instant cause people will be waiting in that panel the same way they do current LFD but the annoyances of the tank wanting to do speed runs while healer is nooby will not be there if you can set preferences beforehand.
    sunandshadow
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    What would a  "well thought out social panel" be though?
    Quizzical
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,092
    What would a  "well thought out social panel" be though?
    An excuse to say that if someone tries it and it doesn't work, it wasn't "well thought out".
    Aegirisimmodium
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,113
    Quizzical said:
    Nilden said:
    LFD and grouping tools are not bad by themselves but when you combine them with cross server and the players are people you will never see again and nobody says anything the whole dungeon because its a faceroll AOE fest... then it becomes a problem.
    A game that can't recruit potential group-mates from a large enough pool that most of the people you'll group with are people you'll never see again is a game that doesn't have a large enough playerbase to support group content for more than a tiny handful of hardcore players.

    Lack of communication and faceroll AOE are different issues unrelated to how groups are formed.
    Look at the difference between dungeons in WOW vs GW2 in GW2 people would talk and I could add someone I met in a PUG dungeon to my friends list and group with them again, in WoW I couldn't.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • AegirisAegiris Member UncommonPosts: 49
    Every time I read a post by delete I want to jump off a cliff.

    I think this is the first time I actually kind of understand what you're saying.  When I raided, it was always with a dedicated guild (even after LFD/LFR was introduced).  Whatever MMO I end up playing next, I will continue to avoid these features.  The only time I used it in WoW was when I had a boss or two that I missed for whatever reason and really wanted to get that kill in before the reset.

    I have a lot more fun playing with a regular group of people that I can get to know.  I don't mind sitting around for an hour, bullshitting with guildies waiting for the healer to get off work and log on.  The social aspects were 75% of the fun factor for me.

    I don't expect LFD/LFR to go away because it appeals to casual players and it really is convenient.  No one said you had to use it though.  Join a good guild and run exclusively with them.  It's that simple.
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,657
    Thought it was good until it happened. Was lucky in Vanilla had a guild Lord of Aeries so I could do group content, dungeons, raiding etc. Was semi hardcore without being too hardcore. Could get a group whenever I wanted. Took a little while walking to the instance and even in a guild environment with willing participants took 20 minutes minimum possibly more to get everyone there.

    LFG ruined the social aspect of the game especially when everyone you group with is a random you most likely will never see again. Much better with people who you have gamed with over a long period in the past or have met in game that you know isn't an idiot.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,135
    edited April 2018
    A well designed functional social panel will ease socialization but will not promote it.  That is more dependent on how the game itself responds to and facilitates social behaviour.
    [Deleted User]
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Quizzical said:
    What would a  "well thought out social panel" be though?
    An excuse to say that if someone tries it and it doesn't work, it wasn't "well thought out".
    A lot of good ideas die from poor implementation and if people gave up as willingly as people on these forums do every time things don't work the first time we'd probably be living in caves hunting with sharpened sticks.

    However, I do wonder how a "well thought out social panel" that would replace the need for a LFG function wouldn't just be a different take on the LFG panel itself.

    I'd need to see it logically explained, and understand how it would actually constitute a meaningful improvement, before buying into it myself.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,298
    edited April 2018
    k61977 said:
    LFR was one of the best things the devs ever did for the game.
    Agreed. I'm all for everyone to be able to experience the content THEY PAY FOR at their own rhythm and difficulty level, as long as the reward are appropriately scaled of course.

    My issue with LFR is not that it exists, but the way it was done.

    Anything automatically teleporting you to inside a dungeon from anywhere in the world should in my opinion not exist. And the whole cross server stuff should never have been introduced either.

    A LFG tool? Definitely. But no LFD/LFR that teleports you to the dungeon with total strangers you will never see again.

    And I also agree that elitism is one of the worst aspects of online gaming. The guy doing his LFR run and having fun in NO WAY affects the "elite" doing their Mythic run and having fun. Live and let live. The "elite" will still be able to stand near the AH mailbox in full Mythic gear thinking than someone actually cares.
    kitarad
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,943
    Eldurian said:
    Quizzical said:
    What would a  "well thought out social panel" be though?
    An excuse to say that if someone tries it and it doesn't work, it wasn't "well thought out".
    A lot of good ideas die from poor implementation and if people gave up as willingly as people on these forums do every time things don't work the first time we'd probably be living in caves hunting with sharpened sticks.

    However, I do wonder how a "well thought out social panel" that would replace the need for a LFG function wouldn't just be a different take on the LFG panel itself.

    I'd need to see it logically explained, and understand how it would actually constitute a meaningful improvement, before buying into it myself.
    Something like what they had in City of Heroes and Villains. In the panel where you request a group you write down the type of run you are doing. If it was a story fight which boss it is  and which classes you need and what pace you would like to set.
    cheyane

  • LorgarnLorgarn Member UncommonPosts: 417
    Back when I raided in Vanilla, I made friends for life. I'm playing/talking with a few of them on a very regular basis, one of them on a daily basis.

    Since LFG/LFD/LFR was introduced, I haven't made a single worthwhile connection with another player.

    What's important to you?
    delete5230Scot
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited April 2018
    ******Well thought out Social panel****** 

    First, Their is a workable social panel in every mmorpg...... It was actually a good one, however it needed even more improvements. In fact most mmorpg's had the same. 

    I'll have to say this three times, because no one ever seems to understand: 
    People don't read rolling chat advertisements !
    People don't read rolling chat advertisements !  
    People don't read rolling chat advertisements ! 

    I proved this at least 1,000 times.  I've spamed rolling chat, and yield nothing EVER, but the same people would respond positive when asked individually.  I'm sorry if you find this irritating just trying to help. 

    I've actually helped others way above/below my level find others, by explaining the social panel when I see them spamming chat for hours ! 

    I've helped others fill groups that I'm not even part of !



    Current Social panel : 
    Never advertised and almost hidden, it "worked well" but it involved extra work by the player, an explanation of how to use it, and it involved spamming players. 

    Social tab > Who 
    Problem is when you clicked on it, it was blank, however in the bottom you were able to type in almost anything to find.  

    Examples; 10-20   Priest   Mage  Guild Names,  it would list every player currently playing.  Their was a tab on top allowing you to separate by class, level, and more. 

    Downside: 
    The player would have to spam others and ask...many don't feel comfortable. 
    Very few knew about this.   



    Well thought out Social panel: 

    Option one
    1) List every dungeon, under a dungeon tab, 
    2) cue for dungeon to add you name, willing to go 
    3) players can use this information to make groups 
    4) spam players from this list 

    Option two 
    Individual message boards, that everyone could read your intentions. 

    Option three 
    Developers decide, many variables to this, after all it's their game !
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,586
    I really dislike group finder tools in MMOs and have been against them from the start, but also agree with DMKano that they were a necessary response to two issues - poor game design and player expectations. So, lets look at those two issues. 


    Player Expectations
    Look at your standard themepark. It's nearly 100% solo until endgame. So, right from the start, your players are not expecting to be social, the game is conditioning everyone to be able to do everything solo. Then when the playerbase does encounter something that needs a group, they don't really know how to deal with it. They're not used to asking for help from others (manually forming a group) and they probably don't know their roles either, so group content becomes an insurmountable barrier. A lot of people quit or reroll when they hit these barriers. 


    Poor Game Design
    I always come back to it, but vertical progression and linear stories are a killer. Both serve to segregate the community into tiny chunks, making finding the appropriate people to group up with even harder. The only time it becomes easier is if you're leveling up "with the pack" or you've reached endgame. 

    I mean, just think about it. 10,000 people on your server, 2,000 online when you are, spread out over 50 levels. 1000 are at endgame, so you only have 1000 spread over 49 levels. So, there may only be 20-30 people in the right level/power range as you, but only 10 who want to group up, only 5 of the right classes, but actually only 2 have the time to see it through......

    It sucks. It's a flaw in almost all MMOs. It is why leveling content has become almost entirely solo, because the rest of the game's design makes it so hard to find groups that putting in group content becomes a barrier that causes people to quit. 



    So, group finder tools are the answer. With just a couple of clicks, you can join a queue for content you want to do and then sit back and hope for the best. There is no better solution without dramatically changing the design of the game and such a dramatic change is not something you can really do with a live game, it would be a massive bait-and-switch to those who enjoy it already. You need to design your MMO from the ground up to be much more social and supportive of multiplayer features. 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    I really dislike group finder tools in MMOs and have been against them from the start, but also agree with DMKano that they were a necessary response to two issues - poor game design and player expectations. So, lets look at those two issues. 


    Player Expectations
    Look at your standard themepark. It's nearly 100% solo until endgame. So, right from the start, your players are not expecting to be social, the game is conditioning everyone to be able to do everything solo. Then when the playerbase does encounter something that needs a group, they don't really know how to deal with it. They're not used to asking for help from others (manually forming a group) and they probably don't know their roles either, so group content becomes an insurmountable barrier. A lot of people quit or reroll when they hit these barriers. 


    Poor Game Design
    I always come back to it, but vertical progression and linear stories are a killer. Both serve to segregate the community into tiny chunks, making finding the appropriate people to group up with even harder. The only time it becomes easier is if you're leveling up "with the pack" or you've reached endgame. 

    I mean, just think about it. 10,000 people on your server, 2,000 online when you are, spread out over 50 levels. 1000 are at endgame, so you only have 1000 spread over 49 levels. So, there may only be 20-30 people in the right level/power range as you, but only 10 who want to group up, only 5 of the right classes, but actually only 2 have the time to see it through......

    It sucks. It's a flaw in almost all MMOs. It is why leveling content has become almost entirely solo, because the rest of the game's design makes it so hard to find groups that putting in group content becomes a barrier that causes people to quit. 



    So, group finder tools are the answer. With just a couple of clicks, you can join a queue for content you want to do and then sit back and hope for the best. There is no better solution without dramatically changing the design of the game and such a dramatic change is not something you can really do with a live game, it would be a massive bait-and-switch to those who enjoy it already. You need to design your MMO from the ground up to be much more social and supportive of multiplayer features. 

    I would like to say something about Poor Game Design, 

    Vertical progression isn't too bad, however fast leveling is. Games are made much much smaller, in order to achieve this you spend less time leveling. 

    Example: 
    Two quest per level now
    Remember when it was two days ? 
    Five levels took three weeks ? 
    You could make a lot more friends if everyone leveled slower. 
    (Side note) You out level crafting making it worthless. 


    100% solo is a different issue, I agree with everything you say, we can go on and on about this topic too !
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