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No Map!

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,973
    I've seen people create mods that actually remove maps for those that don't want them.  They never become popular. 

    Might as well play a table top game where the DM tells you what's going on and you take notes on a one year long quest with your merry band of adventurers.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    While I dont enjoy drawing up maps, there was something very fun about trying to find your way around in classic EQ....It forced the player to learn things instead of having the game do everything for them.

    Except they didn't.  The maps were readily available.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited April 2018
    I've seen people create mods that actually remove maps for those that don't want them.  They never become popular. 

    Might as well play a table top game where the DM tells you what's going on and you take notes on a one year long quest with your merry band of adventurers.
    Solid point. Even if you make maps obscure in certain areas like SE has done on occasion in FFXI's lifespan, there's still going to be ways around it. Some of these "requests" were only "good" back in the day because technology had not advanced as fast as it has now. The only way you were able to find out potential strategies for maybe finding rares or defeating certain bosses was usually done through open forums, whereas now you can just youtube/google/etc and find out stuff within a day of it being officially released (or sooner if the game has a pts). Its just like some people asking for flight to not exist in wow. They could just simply not fly but yea....I mean all of legion could be transversed without flight and the "well received" argus doesn't have flight but half the people stopped going to argus outside of alts after the first month or so of its inception.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,253
    edited April 2018
    A lot of the mechanics of older MMORPGs got dated because of the meteoric rise of access to information on the internet. People started making sites like thottbot which lead to sites like the various <blank>head.com sites. The rise of youtube and the videos that show everyone how to do basically everything led to the downfall of mysteriousness. For better or worse, those old feelings of accomplishing something rewarding that very few know about or exploring some place that very few even know about have been over for a long time. 

    In my opinion, give me the most accurate and fleshed out map as possible so that I don't ever have to alt tab to find something that I'm looking for. I've never found searching for a thing for 30+ minutes interesting anyway. Frustrating, sure. Was there a slight sense of accomplishment when I found the place/cave/whatever? Yes. But in general, MMORPGs are "sense of accomplishment" machines that can do better than that.
    Octagon7711
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,927
    edited April 2018
    Tiller said:
    Daikuru said:
    I dont understand the problem with maps, no one forces someone to use a map, you need to press a button to look on the world map and i guess you can hide the minimap in most games somehow, so you can play without a map.
    It's just some weird masochistic shit a few people want to force on everyone else as they get some twisted enjoyment out of the fact that being constantly lost will be a pain shared by all. Even in the stone age they used landmarks, stars and possibly maps. Humans just don't like to be lost.
    That's kind of a ridiculous sentiment.

    No one wants to force anything on anyone except a minority of sick and deranged people! And it's probably not video games that will be their tool of doom.

    What people want are games that interest them.

    If you buy a game and log into it then you better want what it has to offer or at least be curious to see if it's something you might like.

    No one is forcing you to buy it. So if there is a hardcore, permadeath game with no fast travel and you have to grow your own food and take care of sickness and you have a finite lifespan then I'm going to guess that the people who play it actually want to play it.

    If you buy it, I'm going to doubt someone forced you to do it. And if they did? Then you have bigger worries!
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 9,377
    edited April 2018
    Gyva02 said:
    Tiller said:
    Daikuru said:
    I dont understand the problem with maps, no one forces someone to use a map, you need to press a button to look on the world map and i guess you can hide the minimap in most games somehow, so you can play without a map.
    It's just some weird masochistic shit a few people want to force on everyone else as they get some twisted enjoyment out of the fact that being constantly lost will be a pain shared by all. Even in the stone age they used landmarks, stars and possibly maps. Humans just don't like to be lost.
    Wow, interdependence and giving classes their own unique group helping abilities is "weird masochistic shit" now?



    Don't worry little buddy, I'll hold you hand in the dark scary forest and tell you everything's going to be ok... :) 
    Theatrical antics aside, I don't recall replying or calling on you, but thanks for your asinine and pointless contribution to the discussion, you may sit down now.
    svannGyva02
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,160
    Sovrath said:
    Asheram said:
    Maps will exist no matter what.  They will be on a third party site in a week or less.  

    If the vocal minority don't want a map....just turn it off/don't use it.  Problem solved.
    I am with you on that. Its like all the "I dont want fast travel in a game" types of people. All they have to do just not use it and wala they have "no fast travel". I dont know if it's a "I dont want it so I dont want others to have it either" thing or a lack of will power to resist opening the map or using the fast travel thing.
    You guys really don't understand the concept of games do you?

    I suppose I get where you are coming from if you come from the point of view that "every game should have every option completely optional for me and everyone gets to choose what their difficulty is and where they can all go and how easy/hard getting places and whether or not they can have pvp or not etc, etc etc"

    But the idea behind games is really about the shared experience, confronting the same obstacles and because of this sometimes requiring the help of other players in order to make strides toward personal goals as well as group goals.

    And it certainly is about having uniform rules for everyone.

    Does there have to be fast travel? Yes and No. But "pick one and move on". Does there have to be pvp? Yes and No. Pick one and move on.

    Map? Same thing.

    by putting limitations on players you also challenge them to be clever and creative and to create unique experiences both personally and socially.

    Uniform rules for everyone also creates larger meaning when x player can down y boss solo or Z guild can make their way through X dungeon better than anyone.

    And that creates possible goals for people to strive for and possibly attain or even beat if it makes sense to do so.


    Yeah, but offering in game maps with no pointers is a total convenience item, and you can't make many good arguments for not having them as part of the game itself.

    The only debateable point is whether or not people should be able to see where they are on the map.
    Kayo83

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    Assorted different statues around the world would be nice.

    Idea: 
    Numbered or color coded with natural colors that blend into the environment. This would help in players making their own maps easer. 
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,973
    Before the internet got big I would have to go to the local bookstore and buy PC gaming magazines to know what was going on in the gaming world and for getting tips and clues about the latest games, many games and some magazines provided maps.  Then came Compuserve and AOL game forums.  Now people make guides as they play through beta.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993
    Couldn't there be an in between? Just having no map seems more of a ball ache than fun imho, what am I learning or getting out of it other than being lost now and then?

    AN idea could be you start of with a blank map unlock it as you go along, but it's very basic, towns, roads, but if you wish to have much more detailed map you need to explore areas, map them or discover traveler notes, so name of the areas, roads or even what creatures you can find there, etc. like some kind of profession which gives you bonuses for going out your way to learn and discover the areas, maybe because you studied how wolves in that area you can earn little more loot, items to help with exploration or dealing with certain encounters in areas or kill them more effectively.  I added the bonus to kinda counter the map uploading as you won't get much out of it unless you do it yourself.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    Herase said:
    Couldn't there be an in between? Just having no map seems more of a ball ache than fun imho, what am I learning or getting out of it other than being lost now and then?

    AN idea could be you start of with a blank map unlock it as you go along, but it's very basic, towns, roads, but if you wish to have much more detailed map you need to explore areas, map them or discover traveler notes, so name of the areas, roads or even what creatures you can find there, etc. like some kind of profession which gives you bonuses for going out your way to learn and discover the areas, maybe because you studied how wolves in that area you can earn little more loot, items to help with exploration or dealing with certain encounters in areas or kill them more effectively.  I added the bonus to kinda counter the map uploading as you won't get much out of it unless you do it yourself.
    Whether or not you give people a map they will have one.  This whole argument is silly.  We live in the 21st century and it takes all of 5 seconds to load up a webpage with all the information you could possibly want related to a game.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited April 2018
    Herase said:
    Couldn't there be an in between? Just having no map seems more of a ball ache than fun imho, what am I learning or getting out of it other than being lost now and then?

    AN idea could be you start of with a blank map unlock it as you go along, but it's very basic, towns, roads, but if you wish to have much more detailed map you need to explore areas, map them or discover traveler notes, so name of the areas, roads or even what creatures you can find there, etc. like some kind of profession which gives you bonuses for going out your way to learn and discover the areas, maybe because you studied how wolves in that area you can earn little more loot, items to help with exploration or dealing with certain encounters in areas or kill them more effectively.  I added the bonus to kinda counter the map uploading as you won't get much out of it unless you do it yourself.
    Whether or not you give people a map they will have one.  This whole argument is silly.  We live in the 21st century and it takes all of 5 seconds to load up a webpage with all the information you could possibly want related to a game.
    Which is why merely allowing players to create maps in-game isn't good enough.

    My idea?  Buying high quality maps from a cartographer gives a small boost to travel speed (10-15%) due to knowing the terrain beforehand, but otherwise you have the basic map given by most MMORPG these days (though I don't enjoy the radar for mobs).
    SovrathGdemami

    image
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,834
    Mapping is such an integral part of any games where part of the fun is exploration. Back in the 80s when in-game maps were rare I used a lot of graph paper doing my own. That was fun for a while but I didn't regret for one second putting away the graph paper once in game maps became common.

    Still, there are good ways to implement maps and crappy ways: I still get a lot of enjoyment in Civilization having the whole map be terra incognita until you explore it. That's my favorite way to do mapping in games but obviously, that works best with worlds that have randomly generated terrain. I also enjoy games where portions of maps can be acquired as loot drops just like other things revealing areas you haven't explored. Those are ways to make mapping a fun part of the game play itself. I hate games that just reveal the whole map right off the bat whether you've been to those other parts or not.

    But having no in-game maps at all to me just feels like obstinate forced retro... par for the course with this game :)
    Kayo83SovrathKyleran
    "I don't wait for games. Games wait for me."
    -- CHUCK NORRIS

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    No in-maps?

    Time to google

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 499
    Rhoklaw said:
    Map or no map, doesn't really matter to me. I played EQ and I had no problem navigating the world. Of course, EQ was designed with reasonably sized zones with entrance / exit choke points for a majority of them.

    This goes back to the point that people don't play games for the adventure / exploration aspect anymore. Too many people want the swiss army knife of features because they are either too lazy or too impatient to enjoy the game as it was intended.

    I mean, eventually you get used to an area so maps become pointless anyways. So why not enjoy the little bit of exploration excitement while it exists?
    I believe the newer generation has been molded into non-thinking checklist completers with all the newer hand holding games that have came out that catered to the cries of convenience. A few of us old school players still remember the fun and excitement of exploration, adventure and the unknown with consequences. I really hope Pantheon does not cater to their cries and become a watered down version of what EQ once was... If it does, it'll be just like all the rest that have came and quickly went... 
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,927
    edited April 2018
    Gyva02 said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Map or no map, doesn't really matter to me. I played EQ and I had no problem navigating the world. Of course, EQ was designed with reasonably sized zones with entrance / exit choke points for a majority of them.

    This goes back to the point that people don't play games for the adventure / exploration aspect anymore. Too many people want the swiss army knife of features because they are either too lazy or too impatient to enjoy the game as it was intended.

    I mean, eventually you get used to an area so maps become pointless anyways. So why not enjoy the little bit of exploration excitement while it exists?
    I believe the newer generation has been molded into non-thinking checklist completers with all the newer hand holding games that have came out that catered to the cries of convenience. A few of us old school players still remember the fun and excitement of exploration, adventure and the unknown with consequences. I really hope Pantheon does not cater to their cries and become a watered down version of what EQ once was... If it does, it'll be just like all the rest that have came and quickly went... 
    One of the best, top 5 gaming experiences was me dropping my map on death in Lineage 2 (while exploring) spawning in a town I had never been to before and trying to get "home" (dark elf village) just using the compass. Through mobs higher than myself. Uphill. Both ways.
    [Deleted User]Dullahan
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,160
    Sovrath said:
    Gyva02 said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Map or no map, doesn't really matter to me. I played EQ and I had no problem navigating the world. Of course, EQ was designed with reasonably sized zones with entrance / exit choke points for a majority of them.

    This goes back to the point that people don't play games for the adventure / exploration aspect anymore. Too many people want the swiss army knife of features because they are either too lazy or too impatient to enjoy the game as it was intended.

    I mean, eventually you get used to an area so maps become pointless anyways. So why not enjoy the little bit of exploration excitement while it exists?
    I believe the newer generation has been molded into non-thinking checklist completers with all the newer hand holding games that have came out that catered to the cries of convenience. A few of us old school players still remember the fun and excitement of exploration, adventure and the unknown with consequences. I really hope Pantheon does not cater to their cries and become a watered down version of what EQ once was... If it does, it'll be just like all the rest that have came and quickly went... 
    One of the best, top 5 gaming experiences was me dropping my map on death in Lineage 2 (while exploring) spawning in a town I had never been to before and trying to get "home" (dark elf village) just using the compass. Through mobs higher than myself. Uphill. Both ways.
    In the snow, right?  ;)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,160
    Gyva02 said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Map or no map, doesn't really matter to me. I played EQ and I had no problem navigating the world. Of course, EQ was designed with reasonably sized zones with entrance / exit choke points for a majority of them.

    This goes back to the point that people don't play games for the adventure / exploration aspect anymore. Too many people want the swiss army knife of features because they are either too lazy or too impatient to enjoy the game as it was intended.

    I mean, eventually you get used to an area so maps become pointless anyways. So why not enjoy the little bit of exploration excitement while it exists?
    I believe the newer generation has been molded into non-thinking checklist completers with all the newer hand holding games that have came out that catered to the cries of convenience. A few of us old school players still remember the fun and excitement of exploration, adventure and the unknown with consequences. I really hope Pantheon does not cater to their cries and become a watered down version of what EQ once was... If it does, it'll be just like all the rest that have came and quickly went... 
    You guys are just being silly with this nonsense of how hardcore you all were compared to today's gamers, look at the crap they are willing to play,  takes some resolve to soldier through these titles, I certainly can't do it.

    ;)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,160
    Now let's be serious. /loc, /charinfo, /find,  /findpc, /marknpc, /target is the list of available /commands in EQ1.

    Several were used to locate your character on a X, Y, Z "map" grid.

    Which I now remember, we all had on screen, or in my case I printed them so I could make entries where things were.

    You didn't know where something was, shout out in chat, local, region, guild etc. (games used to have them, many don't know that) and some helpful person would give you the coordinates which would be used to beeline to the targeted location. 

    So what's the big deal about bringing that all in game and putting it on a map?



    jimmywolf

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,160
    edited April 2018
    Now I saved the best for last, I found a /map command, and in checking I found SOE added in game mapping in Feb 2003, about 4 years post initial launch.

    You folks realize the reason they had no maps in 1999 was more of a technical limitation and not part of any grand design to make the game more challenging.

    Seems like first chance the got they implemented mapping as its a sensible convenience. 

    You "hardcore" people are free not to use /loc, since I realize the decision to not include in game map has already been decided.

    Anyone taking bets on how soon the Pantheon Devs change their mind on that poor decision? 

    I'm going say within 12 to 18 months post launch.

    B)
    svann

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,834
    Rhoklaw said:
    Kyleran said:
    Gyva02 said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Map or no map, doesn't really matter to me. I played EQ and I had no problem navigating the world. Of course, EQ was designed with reasonably sized zones with entrance / exit choke points for a majority of them.

    This goes back to the point that people don't play games for the adventure / exploration aspect anymore. Too many people want the swiss army knife of features because they are either too lazy or too impatient to enjoy the game as it was intended.

    I mean, eventually you get used to an area so maps become pointless anyways. So why not enjoy the little bit of exploration excitement while it exists?
    I believe the newer generation has been molded into non-thinking checklist completers with all the newer hand holding games that have came out that catered to the cries of convenience. A few of us old school players still remember the fun and excitement of exploration, adventure and the unknown with consequences. I really hope Pantheon does not cater to their cries and become a watered down version of what EQ once was... If it does, it'll be just like all the rest that have came and quickly went... 
    You guys are just being silly with this nonsense of how hardcore you all were compared to today's gamers, look at the crap they are willing to play,  takes some resolve to soldier through these titles, I certainly can't do it.

    ;)
    No, I actually think new games and new gamers enjoy different types of challenge. For me, exploring the unknown isn't really challenging. It's more of a geeky form of adrenaline rush. Let's say you go to a haunted house. You have 2 choices. Go with a map, directions, descriptions and knowledge on every aspect of where and what is going to happen or, dive in headfirst into the unknown and get the crap scared out of you at every corner.

    So no, it isn't about old school MMOs are more hardcore. It's more of a old school MMOs were more entertaining.
    Sounds like you're that guy who always dies in the first 15 minutes of the horror film :)
    "I don't wait for games. Games wait for me."
    -- CHUCK NORRIS

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    edited April 2018
    When eq added maps there was a joyous celebration.
    It was so much better having it in game instead of in a binder.
    Then again when eq first came out there werent all that many zones to print up.  After a couple expansions it started to become a really big deal.  Now there are literally hundreds of zones (maybe 400+).  It would be insane to keep adding them to binder.  Hopefully Pantheon enjoys that kind of success.
    Kyleran
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited April 2018
    "The info will exist on a website" is horrible justification for putting features in game. It's almost as nonsensical as "throw all the things in and turn off what you don't want." People expect to play on a level playing field, even if that means utilizing something the majority do not like or that does not fit the game. If fast travel is an option, no competitive player will choose not to fast travel everywhere, even if it's more fun to utilize traditional travel, explore the world and interact with players.

    While I don't think not having an in-game map will make or break things, they've already said there won't be any GPS. That means you may have a crude drawing of an area, but you will still have to "read" it to figure out where you are.
    jpedrote52


  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,631
    edited April 2018
    They don't have to remove the map to promote exploration. When there was not GPS people had to use maps when driving around. Just make a general map with no GPS/objective markers. Removing the map entirely would be more annoying than helpful. Being lost doesn't promote exploration either, it makes it easier to just uninstall.
    AsheramGyva02DullahanKyleran




  • AsheramAsheram Member EpicPosts: 4,920
    being lost promotes boredom sometimes
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