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Let's talk EXP debt death penalty, at max level.

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Comments

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Mendel said:

    This may actually be a hard sell for the newer generation.  The naked corpse run implies a loss of items, which was definitely in the Apr99 version of EQ through that corpse rot function.  I have also heard that corpse rot was an accidental feature, but it fits in the mentality of the naked corpse run.  If you don't get your corpse back, you could lose your stuff.  Loss of items probably wouldn't fly with the younger generation players.
    Yeah, but I think that can easily be settled simply by being clear on the mechanic and how VR would intend it to work. When Brad has commented on such in the past, he was talking about two extremes and finding balance between, but honestly, I think nothing short of a naked corpse retrieval will be sufficient to provide the fear and balance in play.

    I have played many non-MMO games (survival games and the like) where you could specify your equipped or hotbar items stayed on you upon death. This completely invalidated the point of the death and simply turned it into an "inconvenience" mechanic where you put all your important stuff on the hotbar or made sure it was equipped and then the recovery was much easier because of it. I found that such invalidated the entire point of a corpse run. If they aren't going to do a fully naked, might as well not bother with it at all.

    The whole point of a the CR is to make it where you are disadvantaged in the process. This also provided layers of pros/cons to certain classes as well. Classes who were very gear dependent were devastated on the CR and those who were less dependent had an advantage. 


    Mendel said:

    I totally agree here.  The concept of experience debt has never made sense to me.  I hope that Pantheon will find a better alternative than this kind of system.
    Same, Such a system would be boring and severely reduce the threat or fear in play. It would be a "Oh yawn, I died... oh well... I will grind that off tomorrow" while if you lost a level and in such lost an ability, it would be quite the disappointment. 

    Mendel said:

    Focusing on max level experience cap seems a bit odd for a progression based game.  Rather than worrying about players at capped experience, I'd suggest starting a set of class-specific 1-use AAs at that level, AND have the max level be a shallow level.  Purchasing an AA would reduce the XP by a large amount (2x Death Penalty).  Give the players a choice when dying at max level, lose the XP and possibly de-level, or unlearn an AA.

    Honestly I am not sure what is best, I was just commenting on the worries of others who claimed there needed to be some type of implementation for people at max level. I personally think if anything other than a small subset of your population is at max level come expansions, then the game is too easy, too fast leveling, or you are taking too long to release content (oh and the last possibility is your game is filled with locusts, and well... you don't cater to locusts, they can't be satisfied). 


    Mendel said:

    I'd also like to see some kind of skill loss, especially if skills are going to advance like in EQ1.  Maybe a 10 skill loss for the primary equipped skill for a death at every level.  This makes a real functional distinction between a character who hasn't died, and one that has died several times recently.  It would force groups and raids to rotate characters that might frequently die.  In my opinion, a mechanism like this would add a real fear of death -- a 50th level that only functions as well as a 42nd level might.  (With this kind of skill penalty, I could easily see AAs that 'purchase' 5 skill points).  Removing an actual skill or spell in game might be too time consuming as the player might need to adjust hotkeys or the UI, but adjusting the effectiveness of a skill could be easily handled server-side.

    They have to be careful in such, as if you put the penalties too much, you then can't make your content severely difficult either. EQ had some insanely difficult encounters that required perfect execution over a long endurance encounter (Doing the AoW with 30-40 people during Velious was INSANELY difficult at the time) that results in numerous wipes and retry. 

    I like a hard penalty, but while I do like the means of possibly losing a level and that reducing capability, I don't want to see the penalties be so much that fights become a matter of "well, we wiped twice, we are done, the penalties are killing us". 

    Anything that is loss should not be a situation where you have characters completely invalidated due to a level drop (unless it was a special level of a key ability). The point of the death penalty is for the individual player, not to punish and penalize the groups/raids. I think if you allow that, it will make the community more volatile in how it interacts than that of WoW.  
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,440
    Mendel said:
    Sinist said:
    My hope is they stick with a fully naked CR, hefty EXP loss with level loss. There should be NO graveyards in a zone and the only way you can regain your corpse is by getting it dragged to you in the zone, or having it "summoned" to you in the zone through a spell or special skill of a certain class. Only thing I would change from original EQ concerning this is no corpse rot, it was never intended anyway, and besides, such permanent loss doesn't work well with a long term development game (ie perm death and loss is better suited for Rogue-like systems) . 

    This may actually be a hard sell for the newer generation.  The naked corpse run implies a loss of items, which was definitely in the Apr99 version of EQ through that corpse rot function.  I have also heard that corpse rot was an accidental feature, but it fits in the mentality of the naked corpse run.  If you don't get your corpse back, you could lose your stuff.  Loss of items probably wouldn't fly with the younger generation players.

    You can have naked corpse runs, without corpse rot (permanent item loss). The two are not dependent on each other.

    In more modern EQ, they implemented a graveyard zone that corpses would eventually show up at (after like a week of RL time passed). So if you were too lazy to retrieve your corpse from the zone you died in, you could just wait it out. 
    Kyleran
    --------------------------------------------
  • RottsteinRottstein Member UncommonPosts: 66
    Just make the penalty that you have to be within one level of your debt.  If you de-level from say 50 to 49 then lose enough xp to be 48 your true level goes down to 49.  That would kinda suck because you would then have to completely do level 49 again to get to 50.
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Sinist said:
    My hope is they stick with a fully naked CR, hefty EXP loss with level loss. There should be NO graveyards in a zone and the only way you can regain your corpse is by getting it dragged to you in the zone, or having it "summoned" to you in the zone through a spell or special skill of a certain class. Only thing I would change from original EQ concerning this is no corpse rot, it was never intended anyway, and besides, such permanent loss doesn't work well with a long term development game (ie perm death and loss is better suited for Rogue-like systems) . 

    Exp debt never made any sense to me. In all the games I played, it was completely irrelevant to me, it didn't make me fear anything, it didn't have any negative other than it meant I had to wait longer to gain my next level. With exp loss and a chance to de-level, there is the threat of losing abilities and spells you obtained at that level (ie you need to level again to use them) or in some cases, it really created a threat of being locked out of a zone or area). 

    If the worry is people will be capped and ding to the next level on any new expansion, well.. you can make the last level of the current content be a "shallow" level while it is the "end level". That is, make the exp amount be small enough into that level that it is easy to lose the level if you die too much. Make it something like  3-5 deaths without a rez will de-level you from 50 back to 49. 

    This way, death still has a threat, and people can't simply cap out the level and never worry about losing too much exp to de-level. 

    I would do that, and then on each expansion release, you expand that level to its natural exp amount which may make the exp bar look as if it is barely filled. This way, you don't get Day 1 people spamming into the first level. The entire server has to then earn its way through the level before new levels are gained. 

    Just a thought and I really don't care too much about how that end cap is handled, just as it isn't a hand out.


    Corpse rot has to happen or corpses become a griefing tool.

    You could have someone dying hundreds, or even thousands, of times in the same place, rezzing and leaving a single junk item on their corpse each time.

    This would both clog the area with eternal corpses and add significant load to the zone.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Dullahan said:
    An extra stat related to how recently/frequently you die that provides a penalty or bonus could be a pretty interesting alternative to just experience loss.

    So, I stay logged in while working / sleeping to max out my bonuses?

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    Sinist said:
    My hope is they stick with a fully naked CR, hefty EXP loss with level loss. There should be NO graveyards in a zone and the only way you can regain your corpse is by getting it dragged to you in the zone, or having it "summoned" to you in the zone through a spell or special skill of a certain class. Only thing I would change from original EQ concerning this is no corpse rot, it was never intended anyway, and besides, such permanent loss doesn't work well with a long term development game (ie perm death and loss is better suited for Rogue-like systems) . 

    Exp debt never made any sense to me. In all the games I played, it was completely irrelevant to me, it didn't make me fear anything, it didn't have any negative other than it meant I had to wait longer to gain my next level. With exp loss and a chance to de-level, there is the threat of losing abilities and spells you obtained at that level (ie you need to level again to use them) or in some cases, it really created a threat of being locked out of a zone or area). 

    If the worry is people will be capped and ding to the next level on any new expansion, well.. you can make the last level of the current content be a "shallow" level while it is the "end level". That is, make the exp amount be small enough into that level that it is easy to lose the level if you die too much. Make it something like  3-5 deaths without a rez will de-level you from 50 back to 49. 

    This way, death still has a threat, and people can't simply cap out the level and never worry about losing too much exp to de-level. 

    I would do that, and then on each expansion release, you expand that level to its natural exp amount which may make the exp bar look as if it is barely filled. This way, you don't get Day 1 people spamming into the first level. The entire server has to then earn its way through the level before new levels are gained. 

    Just a thought and I really don't care too much about how that end cap is handled, just as it isn't a hand out.


    Corpse rot has to happen or corpses become a griefing tool.

    You could have someone dying hundreds, or even thousands, of times in the same place, rezzing and leaving a single junk item on their corpse each time.

    This would both clog the area with eternal corpses and add significant load to the zone.

    Also, if there is no corpse rot then people will store xp in preparation for the expac that raises level cap.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,440
    svann said:
    Sinist said:
    My hope is they stick with a fully naked CR, hefty EXP loss with level loss. There should be NO graveyards in a zone and the only way you can regain your corpse is by getting it dragged to you in the zone, or having it "summoned" to you in the zone through a spell or special skill of a certain class. Only thing I would change from original EQ concerning this is no corpse rot, it was never intended anyway, and besides, such permanent loss doesn't work well with a long term development game (ie perm death and loss is better suited for Rogue-like systems) . 

    Exp debt never made any sense to me. In all the games I played, it was completely irrelevant to me, it didn't make me fear anything, it didn't have any negative other than it meant I had to wait longer to gain my next level. With exp loss and a chance to de-level, there is the threat of losing abilities and spells you obtained at that level (ie you need to level again to use them) or in some cases, it really created a threat of being locked out of a zone or area). 

    If the worry is people will be capped and ding to the next level on any new expansion, well.. you can make the last level of the current content be a "shallow" level while it is the "end level". That is, make the exp amount be small enough into that level that it is easy to lose the level if you die too much. Make it something like  3-5 deaths without a rez will de-level you from 50 back to 49. 

    This way, death still has a threat, and people can't simply cap out the level and never worry about losing too much exp to de-level. 

    I would do that, and then on each expansion release, you expand that level to its natural exp amount which may make the exp bar look as if it is barely filled. This way, you don't get Day 1 people spamming into the first level. The entire server has to then earn its way through the level before new levels are gained. 

    Just a thought and I really don't care too much about how that end cap is handled, just as it isn't a hand out.


    Corpse rot has to happen or corpses become a griefing tool.

    You could have someone dying hundreds, or even thousands, of times in the same place, rezzing and leaving a single junk item on their corpse each time.

    This would both clog the area with eternal corpses and add significant load to the zone.

    Also, if there is no corpse rot then people will store xp in preparation for the expac that raises level cap.
    Rez timers solve that problem. After a few in-game hours, you can no longer be rez'd for exp. Even if your corpse persists longer. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited June 2018
    Sinist said:
    My hope is they stick with a fully naked CR, hefty EXP loss with level loss. There should be NO graveyards in a zone and the only way you can regain your corpse is by getting it dragged to you in the zone, or having it "summoned" to you in the zone through a spell or special skill of a certain class. Only thing I would change from original EQ concerning this is no corpse rot, it was never intended anyway, and besides, such permanent loss doesn't work well with a long term development game (ie perm death and loss is better suited for Rogue-like systems) . 

    Exp debt never made any sense to me. In all the games I played, it was completely irrelevant to me, it didn't make me fear anything, it didn't have any negative other than it meant I had to wait longer to gain my next level. With exp loss and a chance to de-level, there is the threat of losing abilities and spells you obtained at that level (ie you need to level again to use them) or in some cases, it really created a threat of being locked out of a zone or area). 

    If the worry is people will be capped and ding to the next level on any new expansion, well.. you can make the last level of the current content be a "shallow" level while it is the "end level". That is, make the exp amount be small enough into that level that it is easy to lose the level if you die too much. Make it something like  3-5 deaths without a rez will de-level you from 50 back to 49. 

    This way, death still has a threat, and people can't simply cap out the level and never worry about losing too much exp to de-level. 

    I would do that, and then on each expansion release, you expand that level to its natural exp amount which may make the exp bar look as if it is barely filled. This way, you don't get Day 1 people spamming into the first level. The entire server has to then earn its way through the level before new levels are gained. 

    Just a thought and I really don't care too much about how that end cap is handled, just as it isn't a hand out.


    Corpse rot has to happen or corpses become a griefing tool.

    You could have someone dying hundreds, or even thousands, of times in the same place, rezzing and leaving a single junk item on their corpse each time.

    This would both clog the area with eternal corpses and add significant load to the zone.

    Easily solved by a toggle switch to view corpses. Such a command could even be a granular on allowing the player to toggle their own, their group, guild or even specific named corpses. 

    Past that, if it becomes a major issue, flags can be put on accounts or even limits on the number of such corpses allowed before they disappear. 

    The point is that you don't want corpse rot as a game play mechanic as it doesn't fit well with long term development systems.  Same reason that item decay doesn't work well either. Having it where people spend an enormous amount of time obtaining their gear, only to have it disappear is demoralizing. 
    Kyleran
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    svann said:
    Sinist said:
    My hope is they stick with a fully naked CR, hefty EXP loss with level loss. There should be NO graveyards in a zone and the only way you can regain your corpse is by getting it dragged to you in the zone, or having it "summoned" to you in the zone through a spell or special skill of a certain class. Only thing I would change from original EQ concerning this is no corpse rot, it was never intended anyway, and besides, such permanent loss doesn't work well with a long term development game (ie perm death and loss is better suited for Rogue-like systems) . 

    Exp debt never made any sense to me. In all the games I played, it was completely irrelevant to me, it didn't make me fear anything, it didn't have any negative other than it meant I had to wait longer to gain my next level. With exp loss and a chance to de-level, there is the threat of losing abilities and spells you obtained at that level (ie you need to level again to use them) or in some cases, it really created a threat of being locked out of a zone or area). 

    If the worry is people will be capped and ding to the next level on any new expansion, well.. you can make the last level of the current content be a "shallow" level while it is the "end level". That is, make the exp amount be small enough into that level that it is easy to lose the level if you die too much. Make it something like  3-5 deaths without a rez will de-level you from 50 back to 49. 

    This way, death still has a threat, and people can't simply cap out the level and never worry about losing too much exp to de-level. 

    I would do that, and then on each expansion release, you expand that level to its natural exp amount which may make the exp bar look as if it is barely filled. This way, you don't get Day 1 people spamming into the first level. The entire server has to then earn its way through the level before new levels are gained. 

    Just a thought and I really don't care too much about how that end cap is handled, just as it isn't a hand out.


    Corpse rot has to happen or corpses become a griefing tool.

    You could have someone dying hundreds, or even thousands, of times in the same place, rezzing and leaving a single junk item on their corpse each time.

    This would both clog the area with eternal corpses and add significant load to the zone.

    Also, if there is no corpse rot then people will store xp in preparation for the expac that raises level cap.
    Rez timers solve that problem. After a few in-game hours, you can no longer be rez'd for exp. Even if your corpse persists longer. 
    Yep, pretty much.
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