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Old school topic again.

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
This comes from a guy that has very little experience with first generation mmorpg's.  

Non-hand-holding does not have to be thought of as old school......That's something that you guys had made up !......I don't believe in any of this newer generation players wouldn't put up with it !! 



A <quote> from Gyva02: 
"Sadly for most MMORPG players nowadays its not an adventure for them. Its a checklist of things to do and complete and they want anything that allows them to complete that checklist quicker."  

This is very powerful stuff here.  This comes from a guy that hates me, yet I agree with him "its not an adventure for them".  My opinion, checklist games were forced on the population.  

It's absolutely no different than inventing a new flavor of coffee that everyone hates and wiping out all other flavors.  What will people do ?........they'll drink the new flavor anyway, MILLIONS.  

The only difference between old and new generation.  New generation will not put up with broken and I don't blame them !!!..... At times I worry about Pantheon.  



Some things are not quite right with the game....... I think I know what it is !...... We need a good gameplay trailer that shows players in a city forging things at a work bench, talking with NPC's, a few people chatting together and forming a group, all with a good sound track.  Something to show a natural life that players will experience. 

Sooo many questions:
How are groups formed ? 
Why ?... what are the goals ?  
Where are they going ?
Where did they come from ? 
What does prepping your character look like ? 
What do venders have ? 
What does the auction look like?

I think Pantheon is in pre-pre-pre-alpha.  I guess that's OK too.  


My bitter cold statement, and most will hate me for this:  
They're F%$#ing around too long with strange graphics and character models !! 
Blizzard, ArenaNet and Square Enix can slap a game together so fast your head would spin.
Post edited by delete5230 on
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Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,202
    This comes from a guy that has very little experience with first generation mmorpg's.  

    Non-hand-holding does not have to be thought of as old school......That's something that you guys had made up !......I don't believe in any of this newer generation players wouldn't put up with it !! 



    A <quote> from Gyva02: 
    "Sadly for most MMORPG players nowadays its not an adventure for them. Its a checklist of things to do and complete and they want anything that allows them to complete that checklist quicker."  

    This is very powerful stuff here.  This comes from a guy that hates me, yet I agree with him "its not an adventure for them".  My opinion, checklist games were forced on the population.  

    It's absolutely no different than inventing a new flavor of coffee that everyone hates and wiping out all other flavors.  What will people do ?........they'll drink the new flavor anyway, MILLIONS.  



    The only difference between old and new generation.  New generation will not put up with broken and I don't blame them !!!..... At times I worry about Pantheon.  

    Some things are not quite right with the game....... I think I know what it is !...... We need a good gameplay trailer that shows players in a city forging things at a work bench, talking with NPC's, a few people chatting together and forming a group, all with a good sound track.  Something to show a natural life that players will experience. 

    I think Pantheon is in pre pre pre alpha.  I guess that's OK too.  
    At PAX East the Devs said end of 2018 for Alpha and 2019 for Beta, but not hard promises.

    This one likely has years to go before full launch, 2020 would be an optimistic projection at this point.



    delete5230Xarko

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,626
    edited April 2018
    You mentioned strange models, Pantheon is not the one with the race that has wings coming out of the hips? Now that was odd. I get them all confused.

    When it comes to what is old school I am not too bothered about how much of this or that type of gameplay there was back then. All that really matters is what elements of old school do we want to combine with new school to make a solid modern MMORPG.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    Scot said:
    You mentioned strange models, Pantheon is not the one with the race that has wings coming out of the hips? Now that was odd. I get them all confused.

    When it comes to what is old school I am not too bothered about how much of this type of gameplay there was back then. All that really matters is what elements of old school do we want to combine with new school to make a solid modern MMORPG.

    I guess you can say I'm totally on board with the game play, not the ultra high graphics that I find strange.  

    It's like having a "great" cup of coffee, but putting a few drops of vinegar in it
  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 237
    Being one of these "Checklist gamers", my only real problem with the "Old School" way was, when I get in to the game, dropped off at the nearest spawn point and... be free? Like, I have no direction, I don't know how the game world works, what I can do, who I can be and etc.

    I like games with quests that can get me started on the path. Like holding the hand of a child, showing them the world, what the possibilities are then letting go so they can continue their journey freely. That's all I want, to be pushed in the right direction at the beginning with some information so I have purpose.

    If I can just get a little of that to start with, I can handle the "Old School" concept.
    delete5230
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    Linif said:
    Being one of these "Checklist gamers", my only real problem with the "Old School" way was, when I get in to the game, dropped off at the nearest spawn point and... be free? Like, I have no direction, I don't know how the game world works, what I can do, who I can be and etc.

    I like games with quests that can get me started on the path. Like holding the hand of a child, showing them the world, what the possibilities are then letting go so they can continue their journey freely. That's all I want, to be pushed in the right direction at the beginning with some information so I have purpose.

    If I can just get a little of that to start with, I can handle the "Old School" concept.

    Agree, Older games were both

    1) Old school 
    2) Not well thought out 

    I vote for getting rid of the "not well though out"
  • AnthurAnthur Member UncommonPosts: 961
    Blizzard, ArenaNet and Square Enix can slap a game together so fast your head would spin.
    But they are not doing it, are they ? At least they are not working on any new MMORPG afaik. All you can expect from them is another expansion and most of us have played their MMORPGs already or don't like them.

    Will Pantheon release ever or even be fun ? Who knows. But we don't loose anything if we hope.
    Scot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,626
    Anthur said:
    Blizzard, ArenaNet and Square Enix can slap a game together so fast your head would spin.
    But they are not doing it, are they ? At least they are not working on any new MMORPG afaik. All you can expect from them is another expansion and most of us have played their MMORPGs already or don't like them.

    Will Pantheon release ever or even be fun ? Who knows. But we don't loose anything if we hope.

    As long as you don't become a $1000 backer you won't lose anything. :)
    Kyleran
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 2,090
    This comes from a guy that has very little experience with first generation mmorpg's.  

    Non-hand-holding does not have to be thought of as old school......That's something that you guys had made up!
    Non-hand holding isn't thought of as old school, it was old school. It isn't something we made up, it is simply what was which is nothing like the majority of what is. If you had experience of what you speak you would know this.
    Amathe
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 499
    A <quote> from Gyva02: 
    "Sadly for most MMORPG players nowadays its not an adventure for them. Its a checklist of things to do and complete and they want anything that allows them to complete that checklist quicker."  

    This is very powerful stuff here.  This comes from a guy that hates me, yet I agree with him "its not an adventure for them".  My opinion, checklist games were forced on the population.  


    Where did you get that from Delete? I don't hate you, I actually had told you I like all the posts you make in here because it generates conversation and helps to keep it active in here. I don't always agree with everything you have written but I don't hate you, geeesh man... lol :) 
    delete5230
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,626
    Gyva02 said:
    A <quote> from Gyva02: 
    "Sadly for most MMORPG players nowadays its not an adventure for them. Its a checklist of things to do and complete and they want anything that allows them to complete that checklist quicker."  

    This is very powerful stuff here.  This comes from a guy that hates me, yet I agree with him "its not an adventure for them".  My opinion, checklist games were forced on the population.  


    Where did you get that from Delete? I don't hate you, I actually had told you I like all the posts you make in here because it generates conversation and helps to keep it active in here. I don't always agree with everything you have written but I don't hate you, geeesh man... lol :) 

    I did notice he once thought one of my posts was against him instead of for him, I think its a language thing.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,945
    edited April 2018
    Linif said:
    Being one of these "Checklist gamers", my only real problem with the "Old School" way was, when I get in to the game, dropped off at the nearest spawn point and... be free? Like, I have no direction, I don't know how the game world works, what I can do, who I can be and etc.

    I like games with quests that can get me started on the path. Like holding the hand of a child, showing them the world, what the possibilities are then letting go so they can continue their journey freely. That's all I want, to be pushed in the right direction at the beginning with some information so I have purpose.

    If I can just get a little of that to start with, I can handle the "Old School" concept.

    Agree, Older games were both

    1) Old school 
    2) Not well thought out 

    I vote for getting rid of the "not well though out"
    I would disagree with the "not well thought out".

    Remember, when you are at the forefront of "anything" and there aren't examples of what they could/should look like, you have to experiment.

    I bet most of their systems were well thought out as much as they could be.

    It's like early attempts at flight. Inventors didn't know what a viable flying machine "looked like" let alone required so they experimented.

    They thought things out, tried things, noted what worked (if they lived) and what didn't.

    Image result for early aircraft attempts
  • ZindaihasZindaihas Member UncommonPosts: 3,662
    I'm a little confused as to what this thread is about.  Is it about "old-school" MMOs vs. "new-school" or is it about the fact that Pantheon is not going to be released anytime soon?

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    Sovrath said:
    Linif said:
    Being one of these "Checklist gamers", my only real problem with the "Old School" way was, when I get in to the game, dropped off at the nearest spawn point and... be free? Like, I have no direction, I don't know how the game world works, what I can do, who I can be and etc.

    I like games with quests that can get me started on the path. Like holding the hand of a child, showing them the world, what the possibilities are then letting go so they can continue their journey freely. That's all I want, to be pushed in the right direction at the beginning with some information so I have purpose.

    If I can just get a little of that to start with, I can handle the "Old School" concept.

    Agree, Older games were both

    1) Old school 
    2) Not well thought out 

    I vote for getting rid of the "not well though out"
    I would disagree with the "not well thought out".

    Remember, when you are at the forefront of "anything" and there aren't examples of what they could/should look like, you have to experiment.

    I bet most of their systems were well thought out as much as they could be.

    It's like early attempts at flight. Inventors didn't know what a viable flying machine "looked like" let alone required so they experimented.

    They thought things out, tried things, noted what worked (if they lived) and what didn't.

    Image result for early aircraft attempts

    Good point too... experimentation ! 

    In my very brief time with P1999, I would think what is the goal here of what to achieve?  It seemed to come down to their is none, "do as you feel".  In all reality that was good too, it took the pressure off....... However I could be wrong, didn't play very long .  
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    Gyva02 said:
    A <quote> from Gyva02: 
    "Sadly for most MMORPG players nowadays its not an adventure for them. Its a checklist of things to do and complete and they want anything that allows them to complete that checklist quicker."  

    This is very powerful stuff here.  This comes from a guy that hates me, yet I agree with him "its not an adventure for them".  My opinion, checklist games were forced on the population.  


    Where did you get that from Delete? I don't hate you, I actually had told you I like all the posts you make in here because it generates conversation and helps to keep it active in here. I don't always agree with everything you have written but I don't hate you, geeesh man... lol :) 

    Sorry Gyva02, 
    So many people hate me it's hard to keep track :)
    Gyva02
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    ...
    My bitter cold statement, and most will hate me for this:  
    They're F%$#ing around too long with strange graphics and character models !! 
    Blizzard, ArenaNet and Square Enix can slap a game together so fast your head would spin.
    Hmm, Blizzard spents years on Project Titan without getting anywhere, ANET spent 6 years on GW2 and Square Enix had to re-release FF XIV since it was close to unplayable at launch and reworking it took a long time.

    I think you are wrong, most MMOs takes 5-6 years to make. Sure, Cryptic seems to throw out MMOs fast like STO and CO but you can see that the quality suffered hard. so hard that PWE forked in a lot of money and asked them to delay NW 1 1/2 years.

    There are a few successful exception, Guildwars is probably the best one (with Factions and Nighfall made extremely fast) but that is due to the very simple engine and the genius of Jeff Strain, boss and lead programmer of the game.

    Pantheon does not have WoWs, GW2s or FF XIV budget either, it have a far smaller team and that means it will take time. And frankly, I rather have it take time and be a good game then a quickly made piece of crap like Champions online.

    I don't however hate you for saying that, I just don't agree with you in this case. :)
    delete5230
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,021
    edited April 2018
    "Blizzard, ... can slap a game together so fast your head would spin."

    I nearly choked on my coffee when I read that.

    You just don't hear official talk about games they develop until very far down the development path ... but even small companies can pump out games fast with pre-existing tools and engine. Blizzard also has all the money in the world to develop brand new state of the art technologies but doesn't (they polish convention).

    The only thing I care about regarding "old fashioned" MMORPGs is if they stay old school after release. So far, this is a very rare occurrence.

    You stay sassy!

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    Scot said:
    Gyva02 said:
    A <quote> from Gyva02: 
    "Sadly for most MMORPG players nowadays its not an adventure for them. Its a checklist of things to do and complete and they want anything that allows them to complete that checklist quicker."  

    This is very powerful stuff here.  This comes from a guy that hates me, yet I agree with him "its not an adventure for them".  My opinion, checklist games were forced on the population.  


    Where did you get that from Delete? I don't hate you, I actually had told you I like all the posts you make in here because it generates conversation and helps to keep it active in here. I don't always agree with everything you have written but I don't hate you, geeesh man... lol :) 

    I did notice he once thought one of my posts was against him instead of for him, I think its a language thing.
    My guess would be an age thing.  Not hating on him or on youngsters.  But just my guess from the flavor of the text.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Zindaihas said:

    I'm a little confused as to what this thread is about.  
    It isn't about anything coherent. It starts by conceding that it "comes from a guy that has very little experience with first generation mmorpgs" and then goes on to have opinions about them.

    It goes on to include the wildly counter-factual assertion that Blizzard makes games quickly.

    And then my favorite, the trademark invalid analogy which is compete gibberish:

    "It's absolutely no different than inventing a new flavor of coffee that everyone hates and wiping out all other flavors.  What will people do ?........they'll drink the new flavor anyway, MILLIONS."  

    svann

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    Amathe said:
    Zindaihas said:

    I'm a little confused as to what this thread is about.  
    It isn't about anything coherent. It starts by conceding that it "comes from a guy that has very little experience with first generation mmorpgs" and then goes on to have opinions about them.

    It goes on to include the wildly counter-factual assertion that Blizzard makes games quickly.

    And then my favorite, the trademark invalid analogy which is compete gibberish:

    "It's absolutely no different than inventing a new flavor of coffee that everyone hates and wiping out all other flavors.  What will people do ?........they'll drink the new flavor anyway, MILLIONS."  


    This is one of the two real bad haters but I really don't care for both of them.
    svann
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,626
    Amathe said:
    Zindaihas said:

    I'm a little confused as to what this thread is about.  
    It isn't about anything coherent. It starts by conceding that it "comes from a guy that has very little experience with first generation mmorpgs" and then goes on to have opinions about them.

    It goes on to include the wildly counter-factual assertion that Blizzard makes games quickly.

    And then my favorite, the trademark invalid analogy which is compete gibberish:

    "It's absolutely no different than inventing a new flavor of coffee that everyone hates and wiping out all other flavors.  What will people do ?........they'll drink the new flavor anyway, MILLIONS."  


    This is one of the two real bad haters but I really don't care for both of them.

    Stop going on about haters, not everything is hate and love. There are degrees in-between. :)
    Kyleran
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,278
    edited April 2018
    I am for certain not that great at finding the right words to use,so i like when other people with common sense AND pay attention to what is going on in the industry word it better than i would.

    example ..A <quote> from Gyva02: 
    "Sadly for most MMORPG players nowadays its not an adventure for them. Its a checklist of things to do and complete and they want anything that allows them to complete that checklist quicker."  

    This is so true it isn't funny.That is why in the past and a few times i claim that the majority of people playing mmorpg's do not belong in a mmorpg,they belong in some other game that just gives them a checklist of things to do.

    I have also stated that the best ever content idea was done YEARS ago in FFXI with besieged.Now Blizzard is doing Warfronts which is a nice larger scale idea but implemented poorly and not all pve like besieged is.
    Point for mentioning Besieged?Well there is no checklist,there is no rewards other than some xp,we did it because it was FUN,another word the newer generation seems to not understand one bit.When i mention i play for fun,i ALWAYS get a immature response like,WINNING is fun,you say fun because you suck.
    So i just shake my head at how dumb and naive a lot of modern gamer's really are,they often do not  understand the two terms MMO and RPG nor the term FUN.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,278
    edited April 2018
    Scot said:
    Amathe said:
    Zindaihas said:

    I'm a little confused as to what this thread is about.  
    It isn't about anything coherent. It starts by conceding that it "comes from a guy that has very little experience with first generation mmorpgs" and then goes on to have opinions about them.

    It goes on to include the wildly counter-factual assertion that Blizzard makes games quickly.

    And then my favorite, the trademark invalid analogy which is compete gibberish:

    "It's absolutely no different than inventing a new flavor of coffee that everyone hates and wiping out all other flavors.  What will people do ?........they'll drink the new flavor anyway, MILLIONS."  


    This is one of the two real bad haters but I really don't care for both of them.

    Stop going on about haters, not everything is hate and love. There are degrees in-between. :)
    I have mentioned this many times as well,this new generation just loves their meme terms.meme being one of them,haters,trolls being another couple often tossed around.

    You know why we see so much of it,well just like when you see little kids together,they mimic and copy what others say,so when someone of popular note starts tossing around terms,all the immature people start copying them.

    "feelsbadman" "monkas" sound familiar?

    Yeah a lot of people truly act the way we see children act,then they have the nerve to flame everyone else while of course using those terms like troll etc etc.

    GAMING doesn't mean people have to act like children,it can be an adult hobby and guess what...it can also be for FUN.
    Scot

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KumaponKumapon Member RarePosts: 1,427
    We talking about old school ?

    I remember back in the old EQ days people use to wait at the entrance, or near the group fighting to get a spot in that group. Once you got in that group you would sit back with your popcorn and know the next few hours was all about getting that drop. What it did do was create a social network as you then had to introduce yourself and make yourself known you were LFG. I made some long lasting friendships in the original EQ days, and it also made getting said drop from a Boss spawn actually mean something.

    I remember some dungeons where groups would be setup in each room, maybe 4 -5 groups all pulling mobs into their room. Once the Main group in the Boss area died, groups would rotate into that room. This is where the TRAINING to zone became real, and also deadly for established groups.

    If one group has a catastrophic ending, depending how what happened, people would start running like hell so that they didnt get stuck with a very tough corpse retrieval, this then created panic for other groups, especially if you were already fully engaged in a fight, and a player comes BOLTING through your area cause there group died, and all it takes is someone to AOE the passing mobs and your fight just became DEADLY.

    The Salt was real!

    Old school type of games build a very deep community feel, and a need to make friends and work together.



  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,626
    edited April 2018
    Wizardry said:
    Scot said:
    Amathe said:
    Zindaihas said:

    I'm a little confused as to what this thread is about.  
    It isn't about anything coherent. It starts by conceding that it "comes from a guy that has very little experience with first generation mmorpgs" and then goes on to have opinions about them.

    It goes on to include the wildly counter-factual assertion that Blizzard makes games quickly.

    And then my favorite, the trademark invalid analogy which is compete gibberish:

    "It's absolutely no different than inventing a new flavor of coffee that everyone hates and wiping out all other flavors.  What will people do ?........they'll drink the new flavor anyway, MILLIONS."  


    This is one of the two real bad haters but I really don't care for both of them.

    Stop going on about haters, not everything is hate and love. There are degrees in-between. :)
    I have mentioned this many times as well,this new generation just loves their meme terms.meme being one of them,haters,trolls being another couple often tossed around.

    You know why we see so much of it,well just like when you see little kids together,they mimic and copy what others say,so when someone of popular note starts tossing around terms,all the immature people start copying them.

    "feelsbadman" "monkas" sound familiar?

    Yeah a lot of people truly act the way we see children act,then they have the nerve to flame everyone else while of course using those terms like troll etc etc.

    GAMING doesn't mean people have to act like children,it can be an adult hobby and guess what...it can also be for FUN.
    I agree with you, but then we see people who are obviously not in their teens using this sort of language. They may have started it but so many who are older and supposedly wiser have bought into it. I also think social media is to blame, you tick a box as your reply, you click either love or hate you swipe either right or left.

    Ticking something as a form of reply is a crass simplification, but some are worse than others. Our forums are more nuanced than any big social media platform I have heard of because they have several tick options. That said we need to get away from this tick box approach, it kills sensible debate.

    Edit: I buy into it myself, I gave you an Agree after all, it becomes a reflex reaction which actually adds nothing to what you said.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Scot said:

    Stop going on about haters, not everything is hate and love. There are degrees in-between. :)
    It's more like this:


    Scot

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

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