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Cartography

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  • 1AD71AD7 Member UncommonPosts: 51
    edited April 2018
    If you want to give cartography maps a value that cannot be leveraged from window tabbing, all you need to do is tie some sort of "treasure hunt" element into the maps themselves.  Something as simple as "X Marks The Spot" in a large circular radius whenever one is available in the zone, and that radius is random every time it spawns.  There would be nothing preventing players from finding that treasure without a map but it would require a lot more luck.  I wouldn't want to see it where it gives you a pinpoint location but if it's a broad area that you still have to explore through to find it, that would be great.  As far as the treasure itself, I'm not going to speculate too much on this but I'm sure it's possible to create something that wouldn't break the game.
    Scot
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    When I played EQ originally I relied on out-of-game player created maps. Looks like I will be doing it again. :) 

    Will it have the grid numbers like EQ did? I don't know what you call them exactly.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,927
    Sovrath said:
    1AD7 said:
    The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

    Here is a quote from Kilsin:

    "Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.

    If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."


    You can read into that several different ways.  My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map.  It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.


    In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

    Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.
    I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

    However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.
    Except nobody will bother.  Within a week every zone will be mapped on a third party website and nobody will use that system.
    If the map is actually usable and tied into the world then they will.

    If one can make notes (and save them) the map updates with notable areas and "yes" make it so that if there is fast travel one must have the map in hand and have visited the area (or portal), even if the map is "pre drawn" by a player.

    I think allowing the map to accept notes/markings would be the larger help.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Also nowadays it's common to have two monitors. One for the game and one for your map. Easy enough.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    1AD7 said:
    The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

    Here is a quote from Kilsin:

    "Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.

    If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."


    You can read into that several different ways.  My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map.  It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.


    In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

    Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.
    I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

    However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.
    Except nobody will bother.  Within a week every zone will be mapped on a third party website and nobody will use that system.
    If the map is actually usable and tied into the world then they will.

    If one can make notes (and save them) the map updates with notable areas and "yes" make it so that if there is fast travel one must have the map in hand and have visited the area (or portal), even if the map is "pre drawn" by a player.

    I think allowing the map to accept notes/markings would be the larger help.
    You can do that on third party maps too.  It's called paint.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,927
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    1AD7 said:
    The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

    Here is a quote from Kilsin:

    "Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.

    If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."


    You can read into that several different ways.  My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map.  It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.


    In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

    Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.
    I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

    However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.
    Except nobody will bother.  Within a week every zone will be mapped on a third party website and nobody will use that system.
    If the map is actually usable and tied into the world then they will.

    If one can make notes (and save them) the map updates with notable areas and "yes" make it so that if there is fast travel one must have the map in hand and have visited the area (or portal), even if the map is "pre drawn" by a player.

    I think allowing the map to accept notes/markings would be the larger help.
    You can do that on third party maps too.  It's called paint.


    great but if we have it in game then that's more convenient. Also, the map can directly be tied to various and important things within game once they are discovered. I'd rather not have to tab out.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,597
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    1AD7 said:
    The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

    Here is a quote from Kilsin:

    "Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.

    If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."


    You can read into that several different ways.  My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map.  It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.


    In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

    Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.
    I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

    However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.
    Except nobody will bother.  Within a week every zone will be mapped on a third party website and nobody will use that system.
    If the map is actually usable and tied into the world then they will.

    If one can make notes (and save them) the map updates with notable areas and "yes" make it so that if there is fast travel one must have the map in hand and have visited the area (or portal), even if the map is "pre drawn" by a player.

    I think allowing the map to accept notes/markings would be the larger help.
    You can do that on third party maps too.  It's called paint.


    great but if we have it in game then that's more convenient. Also, the map can directly be tied to various and important things within game once they are discovered. I'd rather not have to tab out.
    A good old analog map on paper with sticky-notes and scrawled half-illegible blurbs denoting points of interest is probably even more convenient.  That way a player can see both map and game at the same time.   It's been the solution of choice for single monitor users since Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Ultima 1 and Might & Magic 1, maybe before.

    I just realized.  My old school might be older than everyone else's.  *sigh*  Now I've got to live with that until the amnesia kicks in.





    Sovrath

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    Mendel said:
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    1AD7 said:
    The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

    Here is a quote from Kilsin:

    "Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.

    If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."


    You can read into that several different ways.  My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map.  It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.


    In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

    Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.
    I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

    However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.
    Except nobody will bother.  Within a week every zone will be mapped on a third party website and nobody will use that system.
    If the map is actually usable and tied into the world then they will.

    If one can make notes (and save them) the map updates with notable areas and "yes" make it so that if there is fast travel one must have the map in hand and have visited the area (or portal), even if the map is "pre drawn" by a player.

    I think allowing the map to accept notes/markings would be the larger help.
    You can do that on third party maps too.  It's called paint.


    great but if we have it in game then that's more convenient. Also, the map can directly be tied to various and important things within game once they are discovered. I'd rather not have to tab out.
    A good old analog map on paper with sticky-notes and scrawled half-illegible blurbs denoting points of interest is probably even more convenient.  That way a player can see both map and game at the same time.   It's been the solution of choice for single monitor users since Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Ultima 1 and Might & Magic 1, maybe before.

    I just realized.  My old school might be older than everyone else's.  *sigh*  Now I've got to live with that until the amnesia kicks in.






    Early Elder Scrolls too, iirc.  Ultimately I don't care which type of map system they go with because I'll always have access to one for free.  If the devs want to waste time and money on a system that everyone is going to circumvent anyway then have at it lol, it's their show after all.
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    I would prefer a basic in game map and allow cartographers to sell updated versions with points of interest filled in... Skill level determines what can be added like secret doors, camps , landmarks , possible item drops for the area , rare spawns ect. Pretty much what mods do but allow players to do it in game with a skill.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,597
    SlyLoK said:
    I would prefer a basic in game map and allow cartographers to sell updated versions with points of interest filled in... Skill level determines what can be added like secret doors, camps , landmarks , possible item drops for the area , rare spawns ect. Pretty much what mods do but allow players to do it in game with a skill.
    How about a simple in-game map, made by the developers, that allows the user to mark places with 'Push pins' to mark specific areas (trails, routes, etc.) and sticky notes with 240 character notes?  Organize the pins and notes into Map Elements, a simple package that the creator can name.  I can create a Map Element 'Route to Freville' that includes several push pins and stickies maybe on several maps.  Then allow users to exchange map info with other players (in-game only), maybe as part of a secure trade screen.  This way map exchanges require a fact-to-face interaction, not a visit to a web site.

    "I'll give you 'Route to Freville' for 10g."  I put 'Route to Freville' into Map Elements in the trade window, and the recipient puts 10g into the trade screen.  This pulls all my map elements (pins and sticky notes) from my map and copies them to the recipient's map.  Their Map Element also records the originator (me), date and price of the transaction.

    Relatively simple way to implement a rudimentary 'exchange of map information' meeting your requirements without requiring a full-blown mapping system and nebulous skills.  The amount of detail may vary between 'cartographers'.  Better information.  Better value.  Better reputation.

    All in-game, without an artificial skill.





    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,251
    I mentioned Cartography many years ago,when i complain about all these games just magically tossing hand holding markers on maps.
    If a developer is going to go the route of lazy hand holding,then at least give some indication the npc marked a map for you,marks shouldn't just show up for no reason.

    The better option is to have an actual Cartography skill which can be used in game across several ideas.So you want those hand holding markers,well then if your skill is high enough you start to read a map differently than others,you see and understand markings better therefor able to find destinations much easier.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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