Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
There is those that would argue that this is illegal even if you sign that you agree to this, I would say that's nonsense, You sign a contract saying that a company can access your running process then you have just signed away your right to complain.
That's not true, though. Just recently, Congress blasted Mark and Co for having a EULA that isn't understandable when read by the average America. They told Mark to rewrite it so it is.
Lawmakers aren't going to allow businesses to bury whatever in hard-to-understand terms in a EULA or TOS. If they bury something predatory in there, as Facebook did, the law here in the U.S. will weigh that when considering whether the provision is enforceable.
EDIT- With that said, in this particular instance, the provision (if included by Anet in the EULA), serves a very legitimate purpose. If Anet is not placing users at unnecessary risk or utilizing the data collected for things other than anti-cheat efforts, I don't see an issue.
The underlying problem is that the EULA is boilerplate legalese that they they neither expect nor want customers to read. Companies that want customers to read and understand some particular part of the EULA have an additional, much shorter document that is written in plain English and doesn't try to cover all of the legal caveats.
I generally assume when I play online games that it's legitimate for the company to check to see if I'm cheating while the game is running.
Of course it is, but the issue here isn't that the company was taking anti-cheat measures: it's the measures that were taken.
Using spyware on your customers is more or less a huge breach of trust. This doesn't affect me in any way as I don't play GW2, but I'm surprised that more aren't outraged by this. Both here and in the massivelyop thread a majority seems to be content in just rolling over for ANet.
Look, it's like... the internet of games is more or less still a wild frontier. Precedents will be set by this; as others have pointed out Blizzard has apparently been doing this for a while with WoW as well.
I just find the idea of a company looking for processes running outside their own client in a customer's computer/phone naturally repugnant.
This is the price we have to pay to play a legit game in a society of full of cheaters.
If that price is too high for you, then you have welcomed cheaters into your game, personally, I don't think Anet is anywhere near aggressive enough in combating cheaters. They really should pound down on them at least every 3 months, and, get more and more aggressive "spyware" to ensure they catch them and combat their measures to hide.
No one likes a cheater, just like no one likes a law breaker, so, many are willing to make concessions to see the guilty get caught and punished.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
... it would be like wearing an overcoat into the restaurant, claiming you're properly attired, and then when seated and your coat is removed, low and behold you're wearing underpants.
I have a strange urge to try that now and see what happens.
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
2) Anet posted a list of the programs, all of which are known hack programs, and on their Reddit and official forums, people went from "I'm not cheating, it was just TacO" to "Well, you can't prove I was using them to cheat" to "Well I'm upset that you caught me so I am going to cry about you spying on me"
eulas are not bidding, a contract can't force you to do something illegal, all contracts can be contested.
they lsiting or not means little really, the crackers will hide they problem from they detecting program, also you have a strange way in thinking the cracker didn't modify the arenanet client, the best way to get hacker are still people monitoring the game, there is no perfect way to do it, plus we are very aware then gms do tend to sell or participate on shady things in games was not the
btw you are naive to think your info is not stolen daily from anything you do on internet, facebook and any free e-mail sells your info, why you think they keep asking for you to keep your info as truthfull as possible? best way is to not supply your info, its like taht funny thing with facebook, people outrage for they spying and giving they info, I was like "you guys didn't know that?????"
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
2) Anet posted a list of the programs, all of which are known hack programs, and on their Reddit and official forums, people went from "I'm not cheating, it was just TacO" to "Well, you can't prove I was using them to cheat" to "Well I'm upset that you caught me so I am going to cry about you spying on me"
eulas are not bidding, a contract can't force you to do something illegal, all contracts can be contested.
EULA's are binding, Welcome to the Digital Age.
You are correct, a contract cannot force you to do something illegal, but it can hold you accountable if you do something against the agreement.
Yes, all contracts can be contested, however, very seldom do legal contracts get overturned, and losing a litigation battle is prohibitively expensive.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
If it were only that simple. If EULA goes against the law in a country, then it simply won't be legally valid in that country.
If Anet doesn't state exactly that they are scanning your pc on the look for certain software and uploading the results to their servers to keep, then it could be well possible that Anet is violating your privacy according to the law in your country.
And if you are not using that software to cheat in GW2, then it is a false positive. The cheating software is not illegal to have on your pc and Anet also has no say in whether you are allowed to have it installed.
(Disclaimer: I am dead against botting and multiboxing in any MMO)
They aren't saying its illegal to have those cheat programs, what they are saying is that they will ban you if you use them at the same time you have their game running, i don't think there is a country in the world that would not uphold that particular EULA violation.
I guess it then depends on what kinds of software they flag for this. There is macro software that has nothing to do with games in particular, but could be used to automate actions in any game if you would want to.
They could flag about any software they want. At the end of the day it's their game and their rules.
You can think of it like a restaurant that enforces a certain dress code, or a sport that enforces certain equipment while banning others. ArenaNet sets the standard that you must meet to be eligible to receive their service.
ArenaNet HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NO OBLIGATION, TO MONITOR OPERATION OF ANY
SERVICE, CONTENT OR GAME AT ANY TIME AND IN ANY MATTER, INCLUDING BUT
NOT LIMITED TO MONITORING COMMUNICATIONS AND COMMUNICATIONS INTERFACES,
STORAGE DEVICES, RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY, OR CPU PROCESSES RELATED TO
HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME. SUCH MONITORING MAY ALSO INCLUDE, BUT IS
NOT LIMITED TO, MONITORING FOR THE PURPOSES OF DETECTING THE GAME UNDER
SECTION 8(c) or 8(e). YOU CONSENT TO THE FOREGOING MONITORING AND
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ArenaNet MAY, AT ANY TIME, AND IN ANY MANNER,
COMMUNICATE ANY INFORMATION BETWEEN HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME AND
ANY MECHANISM ArenaNet MAY CHOOSE FOR SUCH COMMUNICATIONS. YOU ALSO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AS A RESULT OF SUCH MONITORING ArenaNet MAY IN ITS
REASONABLE DISCRETION TAKE ANY ACTION, OR NO ACTION WHATSOEVER,
INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO:
CHANGING ANY PORTION OF THE SERVICE, CONTENT OR GAME;
SEEKING RECOURSE AGAINST YOU BY WAY OF ANY PROCEEDING ARENANET DEEMS APPROPRIATE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES; AND/OR
DETERMINING THAT YOU ARE NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL PROVISIONS OF
THIS AGREEMENT AND TERMINATING YOUR ACCOUNT UNDER SECTION 3(b). ARENANET
HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NO OBLIGATION, TO PROVIDE YOU WITH NOTICE BEFORE
SUCH TERMINATION.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To be honest, I can't get why someone would cheat in a chill game like GW2, I mean, it's not even hard to play, it's like a casuals playpen, with really bad pvp balance (hell play a Holosmith or Scourge, it FEELS like cheating), and yet people are cheating there.
Pitiful.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
2) Anet posted a list of the programs, all of which are known hack programs, and on their Reddit and official forums, people went from "I'm not cheating, it was just TacO" to "Well, you can't prove I was using them to cheat" to "Well I'm upset that you caught me so I am going to cry about you spying on me"
eulas are not bidding, a contract can't force you to do something illegal, all contracts can be contested.
EULA's are binding, Welcome to the Digital Age.
You are correct, a contract cannot force you to do something illegal, but it can hold you accountable if you do something against the agreement.
Yes, all contracts can be contested, however, very seldom do legal contracts get overturned, and losing a litigation battle is prohibitively expensive.
Actually, if you've been paying attention this week to Congress, this wisdom likely won't hold moving forward.
Congress told Mark and company to rewrite the EULA in plain terms so the average American can understand. They made it clear that burying predatory clauses in legalese in such documents is not fair to the consumer. As such, we'll likely see that weighed moving forward when the courts consider such EULAs.
Facebook has ruined it for everyone in the wild west of the internet.
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
You are partially correct. But in EU for example a EULA cannot undermine any rights granted to you by EU law. So there is that.
So a EULA is enforceable, if it is legal. You cannot just make up any rules in your EULA.
Edit: The important bit is that a EULA cannot let you sign away you rights stated by law.
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
You are partially correct. But in EU for example a EULA cannot undermine any rights granted to you by EU law. So there is that.
So a EULA is enforceable, if it is legal. You cannot just make up any rules in your EULA.
Edit: The important bit is that a EULA cannot let you sign away you rights stated by law.
Fairly certain you'll be hard pressed to find any laws regarding your "right" to use cheat software and tools.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
You are partially correct. But in EU for example a EULA cannot undermine any rights granted to you by EU law. So there is that.
So a EULA is enforceable, if it is legal. You cannot just make up any rules in your EULA.
Edit: The important bit is that a EULA cannot let you sign away you rights stated by law.
Fairly certain you'll be hard pressed to find any laws regarding your "right" to use cheat software and tools.
Was that really done by a Dev? From the video it looks like it could be anyone. Is that youtube user a GW2 dev or something?
It actually was.
“We don’t need to see it in-game, sometimes good video
evidence is enough for me to track down who it was. In this case, the
video was enough for me to find out who it was and take action. Thanks
for the video, and to accompany your video, I give you this video of his
account’s last moments.”
Guess this is why I don't trust Anti Cheat programs not only are they slowing an entire users system down especially those who run multiple tasks, but they also scan all memory processes for cheats or whatever they define as a cheat that isn't even being used to cheat their game aka Cheat Engine for example or 3rd party mods that are not even for Guild Wars 2.
A cheater sticking up for cheaters? That's shocking /sarcasm
Guess this is why I don't trust Anti Cheat programs not only are they slowing an entire users system down especially those who run multiple tasks, but they also scan all memory processes for cheats or whatever they define as a cheat that isn't even being used to cheat their game aka Cheat Engine for example or 3rd party mods that are not even for Guild Wars 2.
A cheater sticking up for cheaters? That's shocking /sarcasm
Not everyone uses Cheat Engine to cheat online games though, some players like to have such tools on their PC for use in single player games thus users should not get banned just for having it there.
It's like Modding "Skyrim" for example is cheating but it's a single player game so no one gets banned but let's say you're using Cheat Engine or a 3rd party reskin mod for Skyrim and leave it running GW2 could ban you because it thinks you're trying to cheat the game.
Real Cheaters who actually intend to cheat the game by all means I got no problem with getting rid of those, although some game companies don't really know the definition of cheating and intended game-play given the most of companies don't consider trading in a game cheating still, nor do they action it which is great to know.
To be honest, I can't get why someone would cheat in a chill game like GW2, I mean, it's not even hard to play, it's like a casuals playpen, with really bad pvp balance (hell play a Holosmith or Scourge, it FEELS like cheating), and yet people are cheating there.
To be honest, I can't get why someone would cheat in a chill game like GW2, I mean, it's not even hard to play, it's like a casuals playpen, with really bad pvp balance (hell play a Holosmith or Scourge, it FEELS like cheating), and yet people are cheating there.
Pitiful.
What MMO has good pvp balancing?
EVE, DAOC are / were two of the better ones I've played, I think perhaps because they went for rock, paper, scissors balance between classes and roles.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Guess this is why I don't trust Anti Cheat programs not only are they slowing an entire users system down especially those who run multiple tasks, but they also scan all memory processes for cheats or whatever they define as a cheat that isn't even being used to cheat their game aka Cheat Engine for example or 3rd party mods that are not even for Guild Wars 2.
A cheater sticking up for cheaters? That's shocking /sarcasm
Not everyone uses Cheat Engine to cheat online games though, some players like to have such tools on their PC for use in single player games thus users should not get banned just for having it there.
It's like Modding "Skyrim" for example is cheating but it's a single player game so no one gets banned but let's say you're using Cheat Engine or a 3rd party reskin mod for Skyrim and leave it running GW2 could ban you because it thinks you're trying to cheat the game.
Real Cheaters who actually intend to cheat the game by all means I got no problem with getting rid of those, although some game companies don't really know the definition of cheating and intended game-play given the most of companies don't consider trading in a game cheating still, nor do they action it which is great to know.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
2) Anet posted a list of the programs, all of which are known hack programs, and on their Reddit and official forums, people went from "I'm not cheating, it was just TacO" to "Well, you can't prove I was using them to cheat" to "Well I'm upset that you caught me so I am going to cry about you spying on me"
1. Not true at all. Definitely not in several western European countries.
The problem here is you buy a game and not until you install it, you click something. Which is not a legal contract in those countries and definitely not after an update that comes with an updated EULA. That a company calls their product a 'service' does not change this. It is seen as changing the requirements for purchase after the purchase already has been done. Not to mention that to elevate it to a contract, it has to be signed. Clicking a button is not valid for this.
The exceptions are digital paid services that you pay monthly for (ISP, netflix etc). The moment they change their EULA and you don't agree with it, you have legally the option to immediately terminate the contract without any costs and refund for the remaining time you have paid for.
But in the case of GW2, which is a bought product (you pay once) and it is not possible to refund the game after some time, any updated EULA at that point is legally not seen as contract. This goes for all B2P digital products.
And in all cases, any EULA rule that conflicts with a national law from customer's country is void to begin with.
Then there are also discussions about the presentation of the EULA. How easy it is to understand for laymen. This is being questioned by an institution (nationale ombudsman in netherlands) in my country and could lead to more changes about this.
2. If they are scanning for those specific programs to be active while GW2 is running, fair enough.
While it might prove to be entertaining to discuss whether this EULA and their scanning will stand up in a court of law . The reality is they are going to ban the person and that person is going to move on or make a few posts here and there on Reddit. No one is seriously going to sue unless they have money and time to waste.
So let's look at this in an ordinary no litigation scenario. Your best bet in all online games is to turn off your cheat programs before you play games that screen for them, that seems to be the best and smartest thing to do.
1. Not true at all. Definitely not in several western European countries.
The problem here is you buy a game and not until you install it, you click something. Which is not a legal contract in those countries and definitely not after an update that comes with an updated EULA. That a company calls their product a 'service' does not change this. It is seen as changing the requirements for purchase after the purchase already has been done. Not to mention that to elevate it to a contract, it has to be signed. Clicking a button is not valid for this.
The exceptions are digital paid services that you pay monthly for (ISP, netflix etc). The moment they change their EULA and you don't agree with it, you have legally the option to immediately terminate the contract without any costs and refund for the remaining time you have paid for.
But in the case of GW2, which is a bought product (you pay once) and it is not possible to refund the game after some time, any updated EULA at that point is legally not seen as contract. This goes for all B2P digital products.
And in all cases, any EULA rule that conflicts with a national law from customer's country is void to begin with.
Then there are also discussions about the presentation of the EULA. How easy it is to understand for laymen. This is being questioned by an institution (nationale ombudsman in netherlands) in my country and could lead to more changes about this.
2. If they are scanning for those specific programs to be active while GW2 is running, fair enough.
So just curious how hard it is for EU residents who don't agree to an agreement that changes like you mention to get a full refund?
I was reading EU law about the right of waiver, on games like Black Desert, and other purchases which say after a certain amount of time they do not have to refund anything, I suppose this may only apply to certain regions like Germany in EU?
So basically the only legal way for a game like GW2 or other services to actually keep making changes to the Terms OF Service is if they actually charge users like 1 penny instead of making it free to play thus a legally binding EU Contract that can be canceled?
Also what kind of legal action can be taken against companies over Seas between lets say US, and EU someone was telling me that sales of Digital Software or games have to abide by Laws where the person lives or something, I am not sure that's true or not, but what is a company going to do if you buy software for like $10 overseas and then don't agree to an agreement or something for example.
Like let's say across country either U.S or EU, software doesn't abide by laws set down in Europe or the U.S how are they going to block sales anyways or prevent users from using it?
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
You are partially correct. But in EU for example a EULA cannot undermine any rights granted to you by EU law. So there is that.
So a EULA is enforceable, if it is legal. You cannot just make up any rules in your EULA.
Edit: The important bit is that a EULA cannot let you sign away you rights stated by law.
Fairly certain you'll be hard pressed to find any laws regarding your "right" to use cheat software and tools.
Agreed.
But once the GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation) goes into effect in the EU, there are going to be a very strong privacy policy in place. On the bright side it actually has explicit rules for how you CAN agree to waive your rights, provided that the agreement text is explicit about what data is used for and is humanly readable, which of course precludes most EULA's as they tend to wander into obscure wording and cloudy scope.
Like let's say across country either U.S or EU, software doesn't abide by laws set down in Europe or the U.S how are they going to block sales anyways or prevent users from using it?
Duristriction is quite simple actaully. If the company is represented in the EU, say like Steam has a EU branch, they can be sued through that in the EU and they can sue EU "citizens". Say I buy something from a purely US company I cannot sue them, but on the other hand, as they are not represented in the EU, they cannot sue me for violations of their EULA. They can of course just ban me... (This is over simplified, there ARE ways around this, but usually not worth the hassle.)
1. Not true at all. Definitely not in several western European countries.
The problem here is you buy a game and not until you install it, you click something. Which is not a legal contract in those countries and definitely not after an update that comes with an updated EULA. That a company calls their product a 'service' does not change this. It is seen as changing the requirements for purchase after the purchase already has been done. Not to mention that to elevate it to a contract, it has to be signed. Clicking a button is not valid for this.
The exceptions are digital paid services that you pay monthly for (ISP, netflix etc). The moment they change their EULA and you don't agree with it, you have legally the option to immediately terminate the contract without any costs and refund for the remaining time you have paid for.
But in the case of GW2, which is a bought product (you pay once) and it is not possible to refund the game after some time, any updated EULA at that point is legally not seen as contract. This goes for all B2P digital products.
And in all cases, any EULA rule that conflicts with a national law from customer's country is void to begin with.
Then there are also discussions about the presentation of the EULA. How easy it is to understand for laymen. This is being questioned by an institution (nationale ombudsman in netherlands) in my country and could lead to more changes about this.
2. If they are scanning for those specific programs to be active while GW2 is running, fair enough.
So just curious how hard it is for EU residents who don't agree to an agreement that changes like you mention to get a full refund?
I was reading EU law about the right of waiver, on games like Black Desert, and other purchases which say after a certain amount of time they do not have to refund anything, I suppose this may only apply to certain regions like Germany in EU?
So basically the only legal way for a game like GW2 or other services to actually keep making changes to the Terms OF Service is if they actually charge users like 1 penny instead of making it free to play thus a legally binding EU Contract that can be canceled?
No, someforumguy's post is not really accurate. EULA is a contract, even a changed EULA is a contract. People in EU area are allowed to make most agreements in any way they choose to. Clicking "I Agree" makes an agreement, or agreeing that changes to the agreement will come to effect N days after you've been informed of the upcoming change makes an agreement.
The contents of that agreement made can be disputed because it's questionable whether you've agreed to a term you haven't read or not, but even so you make some kind of agreement.
But under EU law those EULAs and other standard agreements used by a business must be fair. It's gray area what is considered to be unfair, but if you were to buy a game like GW 2 and some months afterwards ArenaNet would present you with the choice of accepting new EULA terms that are detrimental to you or cease playing the game and lose the money you've spent, a court could easily find that the situation is unfair to you, and thus decide that the new terms aren't binding to you.
Netflix doesn't have similar problem with fairness of changes, because they can always give you all the service you've already paid for using their old terms.
Comments
This is the price we have to pay to play a legit game in a society of full of cheaters.
If that price is too high for you, then you have welcomed cheaters into your game, personally, I don't think Anet is anywhere near aggressive enough in combating cheaters. They really should pound down on them at least every 3 months, and, get more and more aggressive "spyware" to ensure they catch them and combat their measures to hide.
No one likes a cheater, just like no one likes a law breaker, so, many are willing to make concessions to see the guilty get caught and punished.
I'd skip the underpants
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
they lsiting or not means little really, the crackers will hide they problem from they detecting program, also you have a strange way in thinking the cracker didn't modify the arenanet client, the best way to get hacker are still people monitoring the game, there is no perfect way to do it, plus we are very aware then gms do tend to sell or participate on shady things in games was not the
btw you are naive to think your info is not stolen daily from anything you do on internet, facebook and any free e-mail sells your info, why you think they keep asking for you to keep your info as truthfull as possible? best way is to not supply your info, its like taht funny thing with facebook, people outrage for they spying and giving they info, I was like "you guys didn't know that?????"
You are correct, a contract cannot force you to do something illegal, but it can hold you accountable if you do something against the agreement.
Yes, all contracts can be contested, however, very seldom do legal contracts get overturned, and losing a litigation battle is prohibitively expensive.
I don't know though if the youtube user and the GM are the same person.
It's kind of a traditional Guild Wars prank.
On GW1 bots would be killed in public by summoning Dhuum the lord of the underworld who would reap them.
They are quite up front about it and I have no problem with it.
But them I never cheat....so theres that.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Pitiful.
Congress told Mark and company to rewrite the EULA in plain terms so the average American can understand. They made it clear that burying predatory clauses in legalese in such documents is not fair to the consumer. As such, we'll likely see that weighed moving forward when the courts consider such EULAs.
Facebook has ruined it for everyone in the wild west of the internet.
So a EULA is enforceable, if it is legal. You cannot just make up any rules in your EULA.
Edit: The important bit is that a EULA cannot let you sign away you rights stated by law.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sarcasm off
It's like Modding "Skyrim" for example is cheating but it's a single player game so no one gets banned but let's say you're using Cheat Engine or a 3rd party reskin mod for Skyrim and leave it running GW2 could ban you because it thinks you're trying to cheat the game.
Real Cheaters who actually intend to cheat the game by all means I got no problem with getting rid of those, although some game companies don't really know the definition of cheating and intended game-play given the most of companies don't consider trading in a game cheating still, nor do they action it which is great to know.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/623310/discussions/0/1696043263508757698/
^ New game I will likely throw money into soon
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But you know, cheating in even single player games is lame, right?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem here is you buy a game and not until you install it, you click something. Which is not a legal contract in those countries and definitely not after an update that comes with an updated EULA. That a company calls their product a 'service' does not change this. It is seen as changing the requirements for purchase after the purchase already has been done. Not to mention that to elevate it to a contract, it has to be signed. Clicking a button is not valid for this.
The exceptions are digital paid services that you pay monthly for (ISP, netflix etc). The moment they change their EULA and you don't agree with it, you have legally the option to immediately terminate the contract without any costs and refund for the remaining time you have paid for.
But in the case of GW2, which is a bought product (you pay once) and it is not possible to refund the game after some time, any updated EULA at that point is legally not seen as contract. This goes for all B2P digital products.
And in all cases, any EULA rule that conflicts with a national law from customer's country is void to begin with.
Then there are also discussions about the presentation of the EULA. How easy it is to understand for laymen. This is being questioned by an institution (nationale ombudsman in netherlands) in my country and could lead to more changes about this.
2. If they are scanning for those specific programs to be active while GW2 is running, fair enough.
So let's look at this in an ordinary no litigation scenario. Your best bet in all online games is to turn off your cheat programs before you play games that screen for them, that seems to be the best and smartest thing to do.
I was reading EU law about the right of waiver, on games like Black Desert, and other purchases which say after a certain amount of time they do not have to refund anything, I suppose this may only apply to certain regions like Germany in EU?
So basically the only legal way for a game like GW2 or other services to actually keep making changes to the Terms OF Service is if they actually charge users like 1 penny instead of making it free to play thus a legally binding EU Contract that can be canceled?
Also what kind of legal action can be taken against companies over Seas between lets say US, and EU someone was telling me that sales of Digital Software or games have to abide by Laws where the person lives or something, I am not sure that's true or not, but what is a company going to do if you buy software for like $10 overseas and then don't agree to an agreement or something for example.
Like let's say across country either U.S or EU, software doesn't abide by laws set down in Europe or the U.S how are they going to block sales anyways or prevent users from using it?
But once the GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation) goes into effect in the EU, there are going to be a very strong privacy policy in place. On the bright side it actually has explicit rules for how you CAN agree to waive your rights, provided that the agreement text is explicit about what data is used for and is humanly readable, which of course precludes most EULA's as they tend to wander into obscure wording and cloudy scope.
The contents of that agreement made can be disputed because it's questionable whether you've agreed to a term you haven't read or not, but even so you make some kind of agreement.
But under EU law those EULAs and other standard agreements used by a business must be fair. It's gray area what is considered to be unfair, but if you were to buy a game like GW 2 and some months afterwards ArenaNet would present you with the choice of accepting new EULA terms that are detrimental to you or cease playing the game and lose the money you've spent, a court could easily find that the situation is unfair to you, and thus decide that the new terms aren't binding to you.
Netflix doesn't have similar problem with fairness of changes, because they can always give you all the service you've already paid for using their old terms.