But no one sympathies with them, no one believes them, no one will miss them, they know they are lying, and just trying to find a way out of their ban.
Take the 6 months to grow the fuck up and maybe re-evaluate your life if you are so pitiful that you need to cheat at MMO to be competitive.
Truth, really, if you need to cheat at an MMO to "keep up" you're playing the wrong game. Go find some other game where you don't need to cheat not suck at.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Let's stop splitting hairs here. Running a cheat program that could be used to cheat in Guild Wars 2 at the same time that you're running Guild Wars 2 should be a bannable offense whether you're actually using it to cheat in Guild Wars 2 or not. Or the same for any other game where cheating matters.
No, just no. You might as well give speeding tickets to all ferrari drivers just because their cars can go way past the speedlimit. Or arrest people for shoplifting because they haven't yet paid for the item they are holding.
Just because you could do those things doesn't mean you will. It's convicting them before the crime not after.
No, that's a bad example.
Owning a Ferrari is not illegal because you can use it in a lot of legal ways, but having a police radar installed on that Ferrari would be illegal because you can't plausibly use it for anything honest.
Similarly if ArenaNet bans you for having a cheat program running together with GW2, it's because you can't plausibly have been using that cheat program for anything other than cheating while playing GW2. If you feel that is unjust, then you just need to learn to use your common sense on when it's not appropriate be equipped for breaking the rules.
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
If it were only that simple. If EULA goes against the law in a country, then it simply won't be legally valid in that country.
If Anet doesn't state exactly that they are scanning your pc on the look for certain software and uploading the results to their servers to keep, then it could be well possible that Anet is violating your privacy according to the law in your country.
And if you are not using that software to cheat in GW2, then it is a false positive. The cheating software is not illegal to have on your pc and Anet also has no say in whether you are allowed to have it installed.
(Disclaimer: I am dead against botting and multiboxing in any MMO)
They aren't saying its illegal to have those cheat programs, what they are saying is that they will ban you if you use them at the same time you have their game running, i don't think there is a country in the world that would not uphold that particular EULA violation.
I guess it then depends on what kinds of software they flag for this. There is macro software that has nothing to do with games in particular, but could be used to automate actions in any game if you would want to.
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
If it were only that simple. If EULA goes against the law in a country, then it simply won't be legally valid in that country.
If Anet doesn't state exactly that they are scanning your pc on the look for certain software and uploading the results to their servers to keep, then it could be well possible that Anet is violating your privacy according to the law in your country.
And if you are not using that software to cheat in GW2, then it is a false positive. The cheating software is not illegal to have on your pc and Anet also has no say in whether you are allowed to have it installed.
(Disclaimer: I am dead against botting and multiboxing in any MMO)
They aren't saying its illegal to have those cheat programs, what they are saying is that they will ban you if you use them at the same time you have their game running, i don't think there is a country in the world that would not uphold that particular EULA violation.
I guess it then depends on what kinds of software they flag for this. There is macro software that has nothing to do with games in particular, but could be used to automate actions in any game if you would want to.
They could flag about any software they want. At the end of the day it's their game and their rules.
You can think of it like a restaurant that enforces a certain dress code, or a sport that enforces certain equipment while banning others. ArenaNet sets the standard that you must meet to be eligible to receive their service.
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
If it were only that simple. If EULA goes against the law in a country, then it simply won't be legally valid in that country.
If Anet doesn't state exactly that they are scanning your pc on the look for certain software and uploading the results to their servers to keep, then it could be well possible that Anet is violating your privacy according to the law in your country.
And if you are not using that software to cheat in GW2, then it is a false positive. The cheating software is not illegal to have on your pc and Anet also has no say in whether you are allowed to have it installed.
(Disclaimer: I am dead against botting and multiboxing in any MMO)
They aren't saying its illegal to have those cheat programs, what they are saying is that they will ban you if you use them at the same time you have their game running, i don't think there is a country in the world that would not uphold that particular EULA violation.
I guess it then depends on what kinds of software they flag for this. There is macro software that has nothing to do with games in particular, but could be used to automate actions in any game if you would want to.
They could flag about any software they want. At the end of the day it's their game and their rules.
You can think of it like a restaurant that enforces a certain dress code, or a sport that enforces certain equipment while banning others. ArenaNet sets the standard that you must meet to be eligible to receive their service.
ArenaNet HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NO OBLIGATION, TO MONITOR OPERATION OF ANY
SERVICE, CONTENT OR GAME AT ANY TIME AND IN ANY MATTER, INCLUDING BUT
NOT LIMITED TO MONITORING COMMUNICATIONS AND COMMUNICATIONS INTERFACES,
STORAGE DEVICES, RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY, OR CPU PROCESSES RELATED TO
HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME. SUCH MONITORING MAY ALSO INCLUDE, BUT IS
NOT LIMITED TO, MONITORING FOR THE PURPOSES OF DETECTING THE GAME UNDER
SECTION 8(c) or 8(e). YOU CONSENT TO THE FOREGOING MONITORING AND
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ArenaNet MAY, AT ANY TIME, AND IN ANY MANNER,
COMMUNICATE ANY INFORMATION BETWEEN HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME AND
ANY MECHANISM ArenaNet MAY CHOOSE FOR SUCH COMMUNICATIONS. YOU ALSO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AS A RESULT OF SUCH MONITORING ArenaNet MAY IN ITS
REASONABLE DISCRETION TAKE ANY ACTION, OR NO ACTION WHATSOEVER,
INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO:
CHANGING ANY PORTION OF THE SERVICE, CONTENT OR GAME;
SEEKING RECOURSE AGAINST YOU BY WAY OF ANY PROCEEDING ARENANET DEEMS APPROPRIATE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES; AND/OR
DETERMINING THAT YOU ARE NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL PROVISIONS OF
THIS AGREEMENT AND TERMINATING YOUR ACCOUNT UNDER SECTION 3(b). ARENANET
HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NO OBLIGATION, TO PROVIDE YOU WITH NOTICE BEFORE
SUCH TERMINATION.
You can think of it like a restaurant that enforces a certain dress code, or a sport that enforces certain equipment while banning others. ArenaNet sets the standard that you must meet to be eligible to receive their service.
Actually the dress code thing is interesting.
This is essentially like having a dress code against wearing shorts, but the person walked into the restaurant wearing shorts as underwear and he was kicked out of the restaurant because their x-ray machine detected that he wore shorts.
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
There is those that would argue that this is illegal even if you sign that you agree to this, I would say that's nonsense, You sign a contract saying that a company can access your running process then you have just signed away your right to complain.
That's not true, though. Just recently, Congress blasted Mark and Co for having a EULA that isn't understandable when read by the average America. They told Mark to rewrite it so it is.
Lawmakers aren't going to allow businesses to bury whatever in hard-to-understand terms in a EULA or TOS. If they bury something predatory in there, as Facebook did, the law here in the U.S. will weigh that when considering whether the provision is enforceable.
EDIT- With that said, in this particular instance, the provision (if included by Anet in the EULA), serves a very legitimate purpose. If Anet is not placing users at unnecessary risk or utilizing the data collected for things other than anti-cheat efforts, I don't see an issue.
... it would be like wearing an overcoat into the restaurant, claiming you're properly attired, and then when seated and your coat is removed, low and behold you're wearing underpants.
I have a strange urge to try that now and see what happens.
I'm amazed how many people believe this guy is telling the truth.
He admits to cheating in multiple games. But conveniently didn't cheat in GW2, but was still banned. Is it not more likely he cheated in GW2, was caught, and is lashing out? It simply looks like this guy is trying to play victim to get his account back.
Tl;dr: If he actually cheated in GW2, he deserved to be banned. If not, not.
--
If you want to sniff processes, display a huge window that you have to agree to before you can start the game. Heck, some games (like some people already said) at least tell you when you want to launch it. Might still be illegal unless you prominently display a warning about this before people buying the game.
But silently downloading spyware, executing it and banning people despite them not breaking any valid EULA (if Anet says you can't have program x running in their EULA, i very much doubt that will hold up in court. Not in Europe, probably not elsewhere), and then even having the audacity to remove the spyware again, so have to actually get an older version to check for it etc.. thats like trying to hide/destroy evidence. Not legally maybe, but ethically.
And them uploading the processes in any form at all, again, without requesting consent. They say they are only looking for those five programs, but who knows if that is true? And even if they are only "looking" for those programs, what if they find another they don't like for one reason or the other? Of course thats inherent to all cheat detection, but that just shows thats it's not a clear cut black and white situation.
And then there's the matter of whether they store that information, and whether thats seperate from your other information. Imagine your login information, your credit card and whats programs you are running gets leaked. Someone now knows your email, credit card and that you play e.g. FF XIV and WoW. And next month you'll wonder who bought all that stuff there, as you where busy playing GW 2. That the upload itself wasn't exactly secure adds another layer.
I never cheat in competetive multiplayer, be it MMO or otherwise. In other games only if there is really no avoiding it, e.g. you getting stuck by a bug or the developers being funny with some puzzle or whatever, and by mutual consent in coop. But sometimes it '*is* necessary, at least if you want to continue playing/having fun.
The whole thing is like the police searching your house without warrant while you are sleeping, making notes of what they find. They then had these notes lying on the dashboard and later post these notes right next to the entrace of the police station. A few weeks later they take it down and arrest you because your friend (sleeping in the other room) had some drugs or something where possession is legal, but use not, with him.
So they illegally searched it, without your notice, did transport and store that information in at best a half-secure way, took their time while it was semi-exposed, and later arrest you, when you may or may not have known that there was something that *could* be a problem. They later defend their action with "he could have taken drugs". Note that they do not charge you with either possession or actually using them.
Any sane court will drop that case like it's hot and slap the responsible officer.
Sadly, with video games it's still a grey zone, because many things have not yet been regulated, be it the case of unplayable bugs, shut downs on short notice, bans, completely changing the game except for the name (like calling a Lamborghini Murciélago and Lamborghini R6.150 the same thing because it's both "Lamborghini" etc.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
I actually got banned from fortnite alpha for having a hex editor running in the background pointed at some shitty 4x single player game. I guess it was stupid to leave it running, but I never got so much as a warning from any of the other online games I played. Is that basically what’s happening here? I got it sorted out after a month or so, but ended up quitting regardless. Pretty annoying.
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
If it were only that simple. If EULA goes against the law in a country, then it simply won't be legally valid in that country.
If Anet doesn't state exactly that they are scanning your pc on the look for certain software and uploading the results to their servers to keep, then it could be well possible that Anet is violating your privacy according to the law in your country.
And if you are not using that software to cheat in GW2, then it is a false positive. The cheating software is not illegal to have on your pc and Anet also has no say in whether you are allowed to have it installed.
(Disclaimer: I am dead against botting and multiboxing in any MMO)
They aren't saying its illegal to have those cheat programs, what they are saying is that they will ban you if you use them at the same time you have their game running, i don't think there is a country in the world that would not uphold that particular EULA violation.
I guess it then depends on what kinds of software they flag for this. There is macro software that has nothing to do with games in particular, but could be used to automate actions in any game if you would want to.
They could flag about any software they want. At the end of the day it's their game and their rules.
You can think of it like a restaurant that enforces a certain dress code, or a sport that enforces certain equipment while banning others. ArenaNet sets the standard that you must meet to be eligible to receive their service.
ArenaNet HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NO OBLIGATION, TO MONITOR OPERATION OF ANY
SERVICE, CONTENT OR GAME AT ANY TIME AND IN ANY MATTER, INCLUDING BUT
NOT LIMITED TO MONITORING COMMUNICATIONS AND COMMUNICATIONS INTERFACES,
STORAGE DEVICES, RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY, OR CPU PROCESSES RELATED TO
HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME. SUCH MONITORING MAY ALSO INCLUDE, BUT IS
NOT LIMITED TO, MONITORING FOR THE PURPOSES OF DETECTING THE GAME UNDER
SECTION 8(c) or 8(e). YOU CONSENT TO THE FOREGOING MONITORING AND
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ArenaNet MAY, AT ANY TIME, AND IN ANY MANNER,
COMMUNICATE ANY INFORMATION BETWEEN HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME AND
ANY MECHANISM ArenaNet MAY CHOOSE FOR SUCH COMMUNICATIONS. YOU ALSO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AS A RESULT OF SUCH MONITORING ArenaNet MAY IN ITS
REASONABLE DISCRETION TAKE ANY ACTION, OR NO ACTION WHATSOEVER,
INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO:
CHANGING ANY PORTION OF THE SERVICE, CONTENT OR GAME;
SEEKING RECOURSE AGAINST YOU BY WAY OF ANY PROCEEDING ARENANET DEEMS APPROPRIATE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES; AND/OR
DETERMINING THAT YOU ARE NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL PROVISIONS OF
THIS AGREEMENT AND TERMINATING YOUR ACCOUNT UNDER SECTION 3(b). ARENANET
HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NO OBLIGATION, TO PROVIDE YOU WITH NOTICE BEFORE
SUCH TERMINATION.
Still doesn't make it any less shady, in my opinion.
There is no phrase in the EULA of my game of choice that states in so many words 'we reserve the right to go looking through your computer'.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
There’s a difference in the way that Blizzard and ArenaNet are handling it — basically in the amount of data sent back to the servers. Blizzard/Warden do some measure of client-side process, they create the MD5 hash from the running processes locally (on your computer) and if there’s a match with a program that violates ToS, then sends it off to Blizzard.
ArenaNet’s tactic is different. They are taking the MD5 hash of every process running and sending all of those to their servers to be processed, server side. What happens with the data they ‘aren’t interested in’ is unclear. But it should also be mentioned that in this ArenaNet has no idea what the hell they are doing, and it’s very easy to grab and hash things you shouldn’t be – that can contain your usernames / passwords, API keys, etc. You should assume that ArenaNet at least had access to privileged information that you would not under normal circumstances show to them, and that greatly exceeds the mandate of anti-cheating.
Not to mention that all of this is 100% user identifiable. Every process is sent back and tied to you as an individual which is going to get them in all kinds of trouble in the EU.
I’ve no problem with anti-cheating measures – – but this is a lazy, dangerous, and invasive way to gather that information.
I haven't played WoW in over a decade, although I can't say I would have paid enough attention to their EULA at the time to notice the change. I can definitely say it would have bothered me on a conceptual level.
Large corporations have a responsibility to do the right thing at an executive level. What ANet did was wrong for the above reason.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Fyi GW2 is not the only game to check your processes constantly to see if you have any known cheating applications running. Here are a few others that do the same: BDO, WoW, Neverwinter, CS Go, Rainbow Six Siege, Overwatch, and Skyforge. This is pretty common practice in the game's industry. Hell, Windows 10 constantly checks as well. This is also MASSIVELY different then actually looking at what is on your computer. They don't look through your processes to see everything you have running, they look through your processes specifically for known cheating applications. This is a pretty substantial difference.
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
If it were only that simple. If EULA goes against the law in a country, then it simply won't be legally valid in that country.
If Anet doesn't state exactly that they are scanning your pc on the look for certain software and uploading the results to their servers to keep, then it could be well possible that Anet is violating your privacy according to the law in your country.
And if you are not using that software to cheat in GW2, then it is a false positive. The cheating software is not illegal to have on your pc and Anet also has no say in whether you are allowed to have it installed.
(Disclaimer: I am dead against botting and multiboxing in any MMO)
They aren't saying its illegal to have those cheat programs, what they are saying is that they will ban you if you use them at the same time you have their game running, i don't think there is a country in the world that would not uphold that particular EULA violation.
I guess it then depends on what kinds of software they flag for this. There is macro software that has nothing to do with games in particular, but could be used to automate actions in any game if you would want to.
ArenaNet gave an explicit list of the five programs that they were looking for:
"Any program not listed above that was also in use by an account which was suspended is coincidental and had no bearing in our decision to suspend the account."
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
There is those that would argue that this is illegal even if you sign that you agree to this, I would say that's nonsense, You sign a contract saying that a company can access your running process then you have just signed away your right to complain.
That's not true, though. Just recently, Congress blasted Mark and Co for having a EULA that isn't understandable when read by the average America. They told Mark to rewrite it so it is.
Lawmakers aren't going to allow businesses to bury whatever in hard-to-understand terms in a EULA or TOS. If they bury something predatory in there, as Facebook did, the law here in the U.S. will weigh that when considering whether the provision is enforceable.
EDIT- With that said, in this particular instance, the provision (if included by Anet in the EULA), serves a very legitimate purpose. If Anet is not placing users at unnecessary risk or utilizing the data collected for things other than anti-cheat efforts, I don't see an issue.
The underlying problem is that the EULA is boilerplate legalese that they they neither expect nor want customers to read. Companies that want customers to read and understand some particular part of the EULA have an additional, much shorter document that is written in plain English and doesn't try to cover all of the legal caveats.
I generally assume when I play online games that it's legitimate for the company to check to see if I'm cheating while the game is running.
Doesn't the EULA you sign give them the consent they need.
There is those that would argue that this is illegal even if you sign that you agree to this, I would say that's nonsense, You sign a contract saying that a company can access your running process then you have just signed away your right to complain.
That's not true, though. Just recently, Congress blasted Mark and Co for having a EULA that isn't understandable when read by the average America. They told Mark to rewrite it so it is.
Lawmakers aren't going to allow businesses to bury whatever in hard-to-understand terms in a EULA or TOS. If they bury something predatory in there, as Facebook did, the law here in the U.S. will weigh that when considering whether the provision is enforceable.
EDIT- With that said, in this particular instance, the provision (if included by Anet in the EULA), serves a very legitimate purpose. If Anet is not placing users at unnecessary risk or utilizing the data collected for things other than anti-cheat efforts, I don't see an issue.
The underlying problem is that the EULA is boilerplate legalese that they they neither expect nor want customers to read. Companies that want customers to read and understand some particular part of the EULA have an additional, much shorter document that is written in plain English and doesn't try to cover all of the legal caveats.
I generally assume when I play online games that it's legitimate for the company to check to see if I'm cheating while the game is running.
Of course it is, but the issue here isn't that the company was taking anti-cheat measures: it's the measures that were taken.
Using spyware on your customers is more or less a huge breach of trust. This doesn't affect me in any way as I don't play GW2, but I'm surprised that more aren't outraged by this. Both here and in the massivelyop thread a majority seems to be content in just rolling over for ANet.
Look, it's like... the internet of games is more or less still a wild frontier. Precedents will be set by this; as others have pointed out Blizzard has apparently been doing this for a while with WoW as well.
I just find the idea of a company looking for processes running outside their own client in a customer's computer/phone naturally repugnant.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I actually got banned from fortnite alpha for having a hex editor running in the background pointed at some shitty 4x single player game. I guess it was stupid to leave it running, but I never got so much as a warning from any of the other online games I played. Is that basically what’s happening here? I got it sorted out after a month or so, but ended up quitting regardless. Pretty annoying.
If your program was there to see and modify memory in running programs, I could understand them banning for that. For something like khexedit that has file editing functionality while displaying files in hex rather than (or in addition to) ASCII, that shouldn't be bannable.
There’s a difference in the way that Blizzard and ArenaNet are handling it — basically in the amount of data sent back to the servers. Blizzard/Warden do some measure of client-side process, they create the MD5 hash from the running processes locally (on your computer) and if there’s a match with a program that violates ToS, then sends it off to Blizzard.
ArenaNet’s tactic is different. They are taking the MD5 hash of every process running and sending all of those to their servers to be processed, server side. What happens with the data they ‘aren’t interested in’ is unclear. But it should also be mentioned that in this ArenaNet has no idea what the hell they are doing, and it’s very easy to grab and hash things you shouldn’t be – that can contain your usernames / passwords, API keys, etc. You should assume that ArenaNet at least had access to privileged information that you would not under normal circumstances show to them, and that greatly exceeds the mandate of anti-cheating.
Not to mention that all of this is 100% user identifiable. Every process is sent back and tied to you as an individual which is going to get them in all kinds of trouble in the EU.
I’ve no problem with anti-cheating measures – – but this is a lazy, dangerous, and invasive way to gather that information.
I haven't played WoW in over a decade, although I can't say I would have paid enough attention to their EULA at the time to notice the change. I can definitely say it would have bothered me on a conceptual level.
Large corporations have a responsibility to do the right thing at an executive level. What ANet did was wrong for the above reason.
I understand the sentiment that collecting data in this way is dangerous, but personally am okay with it so long as there are standards in place to prevent incidental data collected from being used or shared without my knowledge and consent, and there are protocols for disposing of this data appropriately once it's reviewed for the express purpose of cheat prevention.
There’s a difference in the way that Blizzard and ArenaNet are handling it — basically in the amount of data sent back to the servers. Blizzard/Warden do some measure of client-side process, they create the MD5 hash from the running processes locally (on your computer) and if there’s a match with a program that violates ToS, then sends it off to Blizzard.
ArenaNet’s tactic is different. They are taking the MD5 hash of every process running and sending all of those to their servers to be processed, server side. What happens with the data they ‘aren’t interested in’ is unclear. But it should also be mentioned that in this ArenaNet has no idea what the hell they are doing, and it’s very easy to grab and hash things you shouldn’t be – that can contain your usernames / passwords, API keys, etc. You should assume that ArenaNet at least had access to privileged information that you would not under normal circumstances show to them, and that greatly exceeds the mandate of anti-cheating.
Not to mention that all of this is 100% user identifiable. Every process is sent back and tied to you as an individual which is going to get them in all kinds of trouble in the EU.
I’ve no problem with anti-cheating measures – – but this is a lazy, dangerous, and invasive way to gather that information.
I haven't played WoW in over a decade, although I can't say I would have paid enough attention to their EULA at the time to notice the change. I can definitely say it would have bothered me on a conceptual level.
Large corporations have a responsibility to do the right thing at an executive level. What ANet did was wrong for the above reason.
I understand the sentiment that collecting data in this way is dangerous, but personally am okay with it so long as there are standards in place to prevent incidental data collected from being used or shared without my knowledge and consent, and there are protocols for disposing of this data appropriately once it's reviewed for the express purpose of cheat prevention.
It sounds like what ArenaNet did is to send hashes of programs you had running to their servers, check the hashes to see if they matched the cheat programs they were looking for, and discard any hashes that didn't. If that's the case, then the only real privacy concerns are the relatively minor issue that someone snooping on your Internet connection could see which programs you have running when GW2 sent the hashes back to your server. But if someone is snooping on your Internet connection, GW2 sending hashes of your running programs is the least of your worries, as among other things, they'd be able to see every web page you visit.
There are some programs that can be used to cheat in MMORPGs, but also have other, non-cheating uses. Macro software certainly fits that criterion. Even among programs that are only for cheating in games, cheating in single-player games doesn't affect anyone else and is a legitimate thing to do. So having such programs on your computer that aren't specific to a particular game may be reasonable for someone who isn't cheating in online games.
However, you have to be smart about your usage of cheat programs. If you're not cheating, don't make it look like you are. Don't have cheat programs that could allow you to cheat in online games running while you're playing those online games. That's what got people banned in Guild Wars 2, and even if they weren't using the programs to cheat at the game (which most of them probably were), they still got banned for being stupid.
ArenaNet wasn't combing through your file system looking to see if you had cheat programs installed on your computer. They checked to see if you had programs that could be used to cheat at GW2 running at the same time as GW2. And even then, the ban was only if they were running concurrently for "a significant number of hours". So even if you did cheat outright for 5 minutes, that wouldn't have gotten you banned.
1) Did they have consent to check your processes?
2) Do you know for sure that all of the programs they checked for can actually be used to cheat in GW2?
To answer this Question:
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
1. TOS/EULA are definitely not legally binding contracts in all countries. In some countries you have to actually sign a contract. Just clicking something is not enough.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
1) I got into a wonderful discussion about this very subject on the legality of an EULA on these very forums, and make no mistake, in this digital age, the EULA that game companies make you sign, are very enforceable in all industrialized nations.
2) Anet posted a list of the programs, all of which are known hack programs, and on their Reddit and official forums, people went from "I'm not cheating, it was just TacO" to "Well, you can't prove I was using them to cheat" to "Well I'm upset that you caught me so I am going to cry about you spying on me"
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
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But no one sympathies with them, no one believes them, no one will miss them, they know they are lying, and just trying to find a way out of their ban.
Take the 6 months to grow the fuck up and maybe re-evaluate your life if you are so pitiful that you need to cheat at MMO to be competitive.
Truth, really, if you need to cheat at an MMO to "keep up" you're playing the wrong game. Go find some other game where you don't need to cheat not suck at.
Owning a Ferrari is not illegal because you can use it in a lot of legal ways, but having a police radar installed on that Ferrari would be illegal because you can't plausibly use it for anything honest.
Similarly if ArenaNet bans you for having a cheat program running together with GW2, it's because you can't plausibly have been using that cheat program for anything other than cheating while playing GW2. If you feel that is unjust, then you just need to learn to use your common sense on when it's not appropriate be equipped for breaking the rules.
1) YES. When you Sign the EULA/TOS, they say clearly, in bold and ALL CAPS, that they reserve the right to monitor your system, at their discretion, for anything pertaining to their product or service. TOS/EULA are classified as ClickWrap, and count as a legally binding contracts.
2) YES. Every program they were looking for, and listed as a Hack or Cheat program can modify their game system enough to count as cheating, botting, and hacking, they also ensure that you had to have one or more of the programs actively running for an extended amount of hours over a multi-week time frame to be receive a ban for cheating, not just simply in a file somewhere on your system, or a one time fluke.
2. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming this? Do you have a link? (genuinely curious about this)
You can think of it like a restaurant that enforces a certain dress code, or a sport that enforces certain equipment while banning others. ArenaNet sets the standard that you must meet to be eligible to receive their service.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This is essentially like having a dress code against wearing shorts, but the person walked into the restaurant wearing shorts as underwear and he was kicked out of the restaurant because their x-ray machine detected that he wore shorts.
Lawmakers aren't going to allow businesses to bury whatever in hard-to-understand terms in a EULA or TOS. If they bury something predatory in there, as Facebook did, the law here in the U.S. will weigh that when considering whether the provision is enforceable.
EDIT- With that said, in this particular instance, the provision (if included by Anet in the EULA), serves a very legitimate purpose. If Anet is not placing users at unnecessary risk or utilizing the data collected for things other than anti-cheat efforts, I don't see an issue.
He admits to cheating in multiple games. But conveniently didn't cheat in GW2, but was still banned. Is it not more likely he cheated in GW2, was caught, and is lashing out? It simply looks like this guy is trying to play victim to get his account back.
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If you want to sniff processes, display a huge window that you have to agree to before you can start the game. Heck, some games (like some people already said) at least tell you when you want to launch it. Might still be illegal unless you prominently display a warning about this before people buying the game.
But silently downloading spyware, executing it and banning people despite them not breaking any valid EULA (if Anet says you can't have program x running in their EULA, i very much doubt that will hold up in court. Not in Europe, probably not elsewhere), and then even having the audacity to remove the spyware again, so have to actually get an older version to check for it etc.. thats like trying to hide/destroy evidence. Not legally maybe, but ethically.
And them uploading the processes in any form at all, again, without requesting consent. They say they are only looking for those five programs, but who knows if that is true? And even if they are only "looking" for those programs, what if they find another they don't like for one reason or the other? Of course thats inherent to all cheat detection, but that just shows thats it's not a clear cut black and white situation.
And then there's the matter of whether they store that information, and whether thats seperate from your other information. Imagine your login information, your credit card and whats programs you are running gets leaked. Someone now knows your email, credit card and that you play e.g. FF XIV and WoW. And next month you'll wonder who bought all that stuff there, as you where busy playing GW 2. That the upload itself wasn't exactly secure adds another layer.
I never cheat in competetive multiplayer, be it MMO or otherwise. In other games only if there is really no avoiding it, e.g. you getting stuck by a bug or the developers being funny with some puzzle or whatever, and by mutual consent in coop. But sometimes it '*is* necessary, at least if you want to continue playing/having fun.
The whole thing is like the police searching your house without warrant while you are sleeping, making notes of what they find. They then had these notes lying on the dashboard and later post these notes right next to the entrace of the police station. A few weeks later they take it down and arrest you because your friend (sleeping in the other room) had some drugs or something where possession is legal, but use not, with him.
So they illegally searched it, without your notice, did transport and store that information in at best a half-secure way, took their time while it was semi-exposed, and later arrest you, when you may or may not have known that there was something that *could* be a problem. They later defend their action with "he could have taken drugs". Note that they do not charge you with either possession or actually using them.
Any sane court will drop that case like it's hot and slap the responsible officer.
Sadly, with video games it's still a grey zone, because many things have not yet been regulated, be it the case of unplayable bugs, shut downs on short notice, bans, completely changing the game except for the name (like calling a Lamborghini Murciélago and Lamborghini R6.150 the same thing because it's both "Lamborghini" etc.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
There is no phrase in the EULA of my game of choice that states in so many words 'we reserve the right to go looking through your computer'.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
You can either say "ok sounds good" or "nope, not for me, moving on".
Or you can spend moments of your life you will never get back to argue with them about it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/#comment-541694
I haven't played WoW in over a decade, although I can't say I would have paid enough attention to their EULA at the time to notice the change. I can definitely say it would have bothered me on a conceptual level.
Large corporations have a responsibility to do the right thing at an executive level. What ANet did was wrong for the above reason.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255/#Comment_476255
Programs Detected:
- CheatEngine
- Nabster
- GW2MHRexe
- UNF
- MMOMINION
And they explicitly said:"Any program not listed above that was also in use by an account which was suspended is coincidental and had no bearing in our decision to suspend the account."
I generally assume when I play online games that it's legitimate for the company to check to see if I'm cheating while the game is running.
Using spyware on your customers is more or less a huge breach of trust. This doesn't affect me in any way as I don't play GW2, but I'm surprised that more aren't outraged by this. Both here and in the massivelyop thread a majority seems to be content in just rolling over for ANet.
Look, it's like... the internet of games is more or less still a wild frontier. Precedents will be set by this; as others have pointed out Blizzard has apparently been doing this for a while with WoW as well.
I just find the idea of a company looking for processes running outside their own client in a customer's computer/phone naturally repugnant.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
2) Anet posted a list of the programs, all of which are known hack programs, and on their Reddit and official forums, people went from "I'm not cheating, it was just TacO" to "Well, you can't prove I was using them to cheat" to "Well I'm upset that you caught me so I am going to cry about you spying on me"