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How Crafting will differ in CoE, compared to more traditional MMOs

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  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    as an FYI


    mystichazeNeutralEvilAnOldFartKyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    Mendel said:
    Mendel said:

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    Because SBS is doing something different in creating Elyria by allowing their community to be part of the development process with the use of VoxElyria, it would make it more difficult to offer concrete explanations and videos until after the features have been playtested and adjusted according to feedback. 


    Developing without a concrete plan is known as cowboy coding.  It has been a major problem in the computer industry for decades.



    Just because you don't get what -you- expect in dev Journals doesn't mean they don't have a concrete plan. It only means you don't completely understand their plan at this time. Patience is a virtue.  
    At the end of 2017 they announced they were replacing SpatialOS which was billed as “the fabric they were building the game on”, and as we know their development schedule has had... issues... to put it mildly.  I’d have to side with Mendel on this until they actual show they have a real plan they can deliver to. Time will tell!!

    Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    Mendel said:
    Mendel said:
    Mendel said:

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    Because SBS is doing something different in creating Elyria by allowing their community to be part of the development process with the use of VoxElyria, it would make it more difficult to offer concrete explanations and videos until after the features have been playtested and adjusted according to feedback. 


    Developing without a concrete plan is known as cowboy coding.  It has been a major problem in the computer industry for decades.



    Just because you don't get what -you- expect in dev Journals doesn't mean they don't have a concrete plan. It only means you don't completely understand their plan at this time. Patience is a virtue.  
    When there are inconsistencies and contradictory statements, that shows more on their ability to communicate their ideas and plans.  Please don't interpret what I understand.  Even if I don't understand something, that does not absolve them from communicating their intent clearly and concisely.  I stand by my assertion that they haven't communicated their information effectively, making it difficult, if not impossible, to assess what they want to achieve.

    Basically, they seem to be doing development before design.  That is a MAJOR red flag for me.



    I think if you look and see when they hired Sniphunter vs when the project supposedly started you will see the disconnect you reference.  Now he’s really designing things like the crafting system.  If his dev blog was 2 years back it would have given me more hope.

    Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Developing without a concrete plan is known as cowboy coding.  It has been a major problem in the computer industry for decades.
    Just because you don't get what -you- expect in dev Journals doesn't mean they don't have a concrete plan. It only means you don't completely understand their plan at this time. Patience is a virtue.  
    At the end of 2017 they announced they were replacing SpatialOS which was billed as “the fabric they were building the game on”, and as we know their development schedule has had... issues... to put it mildly.  I’d have to side with Mendel on this until they actual show they have a real plan they can deliver to. Time will tell!!

    Has been brought up and debated in several other threads and once again not relative to how CoEs crafting compares to other MMOs. 
    Post edited by mystichaze on
    NeutralEvilAnOldFart
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    as an FYI


    Awesome, confirmation that this is actually being worked on ingame.. :)
    NeutralEvil
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Just another concern covered by Snipehunter... Enjoy
    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/24679/design-journal-crafting-redux?page=11#16

    Posted By Tenchikun at 9:29 PM - Sat Apr 07 2018

    Many of you may not remember Asheron's Call 2. They started their game live with a similar situation with next to zero NPC vendors or quest givers. It was an extreme detriment to the game to not have a way to progress at a steady pace. They had a vision of a game which relied heavily on player crafted items and not npc's. Again a huge detriment to the livability of the game. I am truly fearing the same may occur with CoE. How things will turn out without a clear visual understanding of what this game will be like in terms of quests, npcs, ect is hard to envision and predict. Perhaps their vision was just wrong for that era and is right for todays modern gameplay.

    Snipehunter replied:

    A very large difference here, that I think is often overlooked, is that we're not excluding NPCs in our planning. Players will enter a world that already have a functional economy, with tasks awaiting completion, niches to fill, and opportunities to exploit. But, if for whatever reason players should elect not to take those opportunities, NPCs in the world will eventually do so.

    Likewise, NPCs aren't capped at some level of development in comparison to players. It's true that players will, in general, produce better work, but that's about player skill, not about any artificial constraints of the system. This means that a master smith NPC will produce great quality work, even if he won't rival a player of similar skill at the same levels. That means that every area, regardless of player crafting participation, will have an avenue to supply needed materials to players, but it doesn't rule out the need to travel far and wide to find the "best."

    And, let's talk about "Best" - in most MMOs, "best" for a particular class of character is a singular weapon or gear set, but in the real world it doesn't really play out that way. We each have our own strategies, our own preferences, that influence what we look at as "Best." A MEOW is similar for a number of reasons: You pick your approach to craft, combat, politics, and adventure. You decide what styles to fight with, what crafts to pursue, and how to pursue mastery of those crafts and combat styles. This means "best" for you can be markedly different from "best" for me.

    This is further compounded by regionality: "best" for you might be entirely different from "best" for me because we come from different places with different resources and, thus, different crafters and skill sets. A To'resk may not want neran platemail, they may instead prefer the home-made composite because it's lighter, less likely to be stifling in the heat, but offers similar levels of protection even if it requires more upkeep. That extra upkeep might be a non-factor, depending on the To'resk, since they might not have access to the materials necessary to upkeep and repair steel platemail but do have the leathers, paper, and lacquer necessary to repair To'resk armor, not to mention access to a community of folks that know the secrets of To'resk composite armor.

    So, all of this works together to create regional demand for skills and items centered around what the region can support, both from a materials and skillset standpoint. Both of which, materials and skillset, are covered by NPCs even if players never get involved. The result should be a world where "flavor of the week," when it exists, exists in specific areas rather than globally, and waxes and wanes as access to materials and skillset change in a region.

    Unless you all go murder all the NPCs, players should never enter a world where the problem you're considering with that callback to AC2 can't really exist.

    Hope that helps! :)


    DleatherusNeutralEvil
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Mendel Said:

    I had a lot of questions on page 3.  But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?'  Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties.  Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves.  That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.


    This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game. 

    As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways. 

    So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes. 

    First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)

    Why is this pertinent you might ask? Well because the way Character Creation is established you are not guaranteed to have all your Alts spawn in the same location.  Which they would need to be in order to store and pass goods from one to the other. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/1203/DJ-14-Player-Housing-Architecture-Construction)

    So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area. 

    How does family selection work?

    Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.

    While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:

    • General Info
    • Wealth, Power & Standing
    • Occupations
    • Disposition
    • Physical Traits

    This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting. 
    That being said, the family you select has a huge impact on your social experience, and not just when interacting with other family members. Your choice of family (and their social class) impacts how other NPCs, OPCs, and players interact with you. The family you select will also determine things like what type and how big your starting house is, and how much land your family has for farming, mining, breeding, and other land-based activities. 

    Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.

    While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:

    So in my opinion, with the implementation of the above barriers considered the use of Alts might not be as cut and dry as we know it to be in other games. You would have to be able to find suitable families, or Orphanages all in the same location in order for Alts to be any benefit to you. I am not saying that it can't be done, but I think it will be a lot more difficult that one might think. 

    If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.



    Post edited by mystichaze on
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    Mendel Said:

    I had a lot of questions on page 3.  But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?'  Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties.  Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves.  That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.


    This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game. 

    As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways. 

    So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes. 

    First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)

    Why is this pertinent you might ask? Well because the way Character Creation is established you are not guaranteed to have all your Alts spawn in the same location.  Which they would need to be in order to store and pass goods from one to the other. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/1203/DJ-14-Player-Housing-Architecture-Construction)

    So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area. 

    How does family selection work?

    Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.

    While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:

    • General Info
    • Wealth, Power & Standing
    • Occupations
    • Disposition
    • Physical Traits

    This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting. 
    That being said, the family you select has a huge impact on your social experience, and not just when interacting with other family members. Your choice of family (and their social class) impacts how other NPCs, OPCs, and players interact with you. The family you select will also determine things like what type and how big your starting house is, and how much land your family has for farming, mining, breeding, and other land-based activities. 

    Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.

    While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:

    So in my opinion, with the implementation of the above barriers considered the use of Alts might not be as cut and dry as we know it to be in other games. You would have to be able to find suitable families, or Orphanages all in the same location in order for Alts to be any benefit to you. I am not saying that it can't be done, but I think it will be a lot more difficult that one might think. 

    If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.



    So think this through.  You just select the fame family for your 5 alts...
    Otherwise... think of the uproar when 4 IRL friends want to play together and the game makes them start on opposite parts of the world in other kingdoms....

    Is that really a good idea?

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Mendel Said:

    I had a lot of questions on page 3.  But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?'  Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties.  Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves.  That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.


    This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game. 

    As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways. 

    So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes. 

    First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)

    Why is this pertinent you might ask? Well because the way Character Creation is established you are not guaranteed to have all your Alts spawn in the same location.  Which they would need to be in order to store and pass goods from one to the other. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/1203/DJ-14-Player-Housing-Architecture-Construction)

    So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area. 

    How does family selection work?

    Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.

    While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:

    • General Info
    • Wealth, Power & Standing
    • Occupations
    • Disposition
    • Physical Traits

    This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting. 
    That being said, the family you select has a huge impact on your social experience, and not just when interacting with other family members. Your choice of family (and their social class) impacts how other NPCs, OPCs, and players interact with you. The family you select will also determine things like what type and how big your starting house is, and how much land your family has for farming, mining, breeding, and other land-based activities. 

    Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.

    While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:

    So in my opinion, with the implementation of the above barriers considered the use of Alts might not be as cut and dry as we know it to be in other games. You would have to be able to find suitable families, or Orphanages all in the same location in order for Alts to be any benefit to you. I am not saying that it can't be done, but I think it will be a lot more difficult that one might think. 

    If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.



    So think this through.  You just select the fame family for your 5 alts...
    Otherwise... think of the uproar when 4 IRL friends want to play together and the game makes them start on opposite parts of the world in other kingdoms....

    Is that really a good idea?

    And perhaps a conversation for another thread since it has nothing to do with Alts for the purpose of Crafting. 
    Slapshot1188
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    Mendel Said:

    I had a lot of questions on page 3.  But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?'  Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties.  Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves.  That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.


    This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game. 

    As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways. 

    So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes. 

    First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)

    Why is this pertinent you might ask? Well because the way Character Creation is established you are not guaranteed to have all your Alts spawn in the same location.  Which they would need to be in order to store and pass goods from one to the other. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/1203/DJ-14-Player-Housing-Architecture-Construction)

    So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area. 

    How does family selection work?

    Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.

    While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:

    • General Info
    • Wealth, Power & Standing
    • Occupations
    • Disposition
    • Physical Traits

    This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting. 
    That being said, the family you select has a huge impact on your social experience, and not just when interacting with other family members. Your choice of family (and their social class) impacts how other NPCs, OPCs, and players interact with you. The family you select will also determine things like what type and how big your starting house is, and how much land your family has for farming, mining, breeding, and other land-based activities. 

    Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.

    While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:

    So in my opinion, with the implementation of the above barriers considered the use of Alts might not be as cut and dry as we know it to be in other games. You would have to be able to find suitable families, or Orphanages all in the same location in order for Alts to be any benefit to you. I am not saying that it can't be done, but I think it will be a lot more difficult that one might think. 

    If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.



    So think this through.  You just select the fame family for your 5 alts...
    Otherwise... think of the uproar when 4 IRL friends want to play together and the game makes them start on opposite parts of the world in other kingdoms....

    Is that really a good idea?

    And perhaps a conversation for another thread since it has nothing to do with Crafting. 
    Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion.  You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion.  YOU asked for things you were missing.

    So here, to round it out nicely for you:

    Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO.  It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together.  I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.

    If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.

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  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Slapshot said:

    Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion.  You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion.  YOU asked for things you were missing.

    So here, to round it out nicely for you:

    Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO.  It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together.  I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.

    If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.

    That is your opinion and of course, you are entitled to it. However, not one single post that you have made in this thread has to do with the crafting system in CoE, or how it will compare to other MMOs. 

    If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier against Goon Squads and Zergs taking possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread. 


    Slapshot1188
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    Slapshot said:

    Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion.  You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion.  YOU asked for things you were missing.

    So here, to round it out nicely for you:

    Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO.  It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together.  I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.

    If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.

    That is your opinion and of course, you are entitled to it. However, not one single post that you have made in this thread has to do with the crafting system in CoE, or how it will compare to other MMOs. 

    If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier for Goon Squads and Zergs to take possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread. 


    Nope.  Nothing to do with Goon Squads.  Nothing to do with taking over settlements.

    I'll restate again since you seem to think it's not on topic.

    YOUR statement that this mechanic is going to prevent alts is wrong IMHO.  YOU have vastly over stated the impact of the mechanic on preventing alts. Thus you have vastly over stated it's impact in preventing the scenario that Mendel described related to crafting. The reasoning is that it would have the same impact on any people that wanted to play together.  Not The Goons, but Bill and Bob who are neighbors or Jane and Tim who are a married couple. Thus Mendel's concern is still valid.  

    Feel free to ignore it and think this mechanic will prevent crafting alts. I'm not trying to convince you you are wrong. I'm more interested in what people like Mendel think.

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  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Slapshot said:

    Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion.  You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion.  YOU asked for things you were missing.

    So here, to round it out nicely for you:

    Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO.  It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together.  I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.

    If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.

    That is your opinion and of course, you are entitled to it. However, not one single post that you have made in this thread has to do with the crafting system in CoE, or how it will compare to other MMOs. 

    If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier for Goon Squads and Zergs to take possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread. 


    Nope.  Nothing to do with Goon Squads.  Nothing to do with taking over settlements.

    I'll restate again since you seem to think it's not on topic.

    YOUR statement that this mechanic is going to prevent alts is wrong IMHO.  YOU have vastly over stated the impact of the mechanic on preventing alts. Thus you have vastly over stated it's impact in preventing the scenario that Mendel described related to crafting. The reasoning is that it would have the same impact on any people that wanted to play together.  Not The Goons, but Bill and Bob who are neighbors or Jane and Tim who are a married couple. Thus Mendel's concern is still valid.  

    Feel free to ignore it and think this mechanic will prevent crafting alts. I'm not trying to convince you you are wrong. I'm more interested in what people like Mendel think.
    Ok, you say my assessment is wrong in regard to how this mechanic is going to be a barrier for Alts. Then please point out where anything I referred to didn't come from a DJ. Or how I misinterpreted it (overstated). In relationship to Alts in the Crafting system. Rather than just making a blanketed statement. 

    I agree it will have the same effect on players that want to play together and perhaps adjustments will have to be made in order for them to do that.  So be it, if that is the design of the game. They may have to spend some time in-game in order to bring their characters together. 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    Slapshot said:

    Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion.  You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion.  YOU asked for things you were missing.

    So here, to round it out nicely for you:

    Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO.  It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together.  I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.

    If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.

    That is your opinion and of course, you are entitled to it. However, not one single post that you have made in this thread has to do with the crafting system in CoE, or how it will compare to other MMOs. 

    If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier for Goon Squads and Zergs to take possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread. 


    Nope.  Nothing to do with Goon Squads.  Nothing to do with taking over settlements.

    I'll restate again since you seem to think it's not on topic.

    YOUR statement that this mechanic is going to prevent alts is wrong IMHO.  YOU have vastly over stated the impact of the mechanic on preventing alts. Thus you have vastly over stated it's impact in preventing the scenario that Mendel described related to crafting. The reasoning is that it would have the same impact on any people that wanted to play together.  Not The Goons, but Bill and Bob who are neighbors or Jane and Tim who are a married couple. Thus Mendel's concern is still valid.  

    Feel free to ignore it and think this mechanic will prevent crafting alts. I'm not trying to convince you you are wrong. I'm more interested in what people like Mendel think.
    Ok, you say my assessment is wrong in regard to how this mechanic is going to be a barrier for Alts. Then please point out where anything I referred to didn't come from a DJ. Or how I misinterpreted it (overstated). In relationship to Alts in the Crafting system. Rather than just making a blanketed statement. 

    I agree it will have the same effect on players that want to play together and perhaps adjustments will have to be made in order for them to do that.  So be it, if that is the design of the game. They may have to spend some time in-game in order to bring their characters together. 
    As I said I'm not interested in convincing you :)

    Pretty sure Mendel will get it.


    Mendel

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  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 213
    I wonder what made them consider crafting to be more important than the really interesting stuff like the skill trees or spirit walking.

    Something tells me, that money and time are gonna be wasted in the long run. But the bright side: even if CoE fails, it'll be a good precursor to any other cash-grabs out there.
    Mendel
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    One of the biggest differences between CoE and other MMO crafting systems is that in CoE you can fully macro the entire crafting process ! 

    That's what you will be doing when you make the "scripts" that will be used to run your char when you are logged out.

    So not only will you be able to macro it, but you won't even have to be online to run that macro all night long !

    This is true innovation in the MMO world, no game has ever had this kind of functionality built-in.
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    One of the biggest differences between CoE and other MMO crafting systems is that in CoE you can fully macro the entire crafting process ! 

    That's what you will be doing when you make the "scripts" that will be used to run your char when you are logged out.

    So not only will you be able to macro it, but you won't even have to be online to run that macro all night long !

    This is true innovation in the MMO world, no game has ever had this kind of functionality built-in.
    in my opinion you are completely mistaken - you CANNOT macro the entire crafting process

    they way i understand it, and that the devs have explained, is that you will be able to macro/script the involved processes of crating/techniques that you are already proficient in, which is not the "entire" process

    you will need to be present and look for and respond to appropriately to the different audio and visual cues at each step of the crafting process for crafting something that you are not proficient in

    meaning chore type crafting is automated (if you choose to), skill leveling crafting is challenging (no option to automate)

    haven't actually seen this in a game that i have played before (it for sure might be out there)

    would be interested if you could list for me the mmorpg's out there that have this

    btw they have said that the OPC making of chore type craft items is intentional, so that people who have limited time to play the game get log in and PLAY the game - not log in and spend precious time on mundane already-known crafting processes

    to me this is a good thing 


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    One of the biggest differences between CoE and other MMO crafting systems is that in CoE you can fully macro the entire crafting process ! 

    That's what you will be doing when you make the "scripts" that will be used to run your char when you are logged out.

    So not only will you be able to macro it, but you won't even have to be online to run that macro all night long !

    This is true innovation in the MMO world, no game has ever had this kind of functionality built-in.
    Idle Adventures(Runescape etc...) kind of did it first.  Not scripts but still...

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  • TekkonTekkon Member UncommonPosts: 27
    edited April 2018
    I loved the DJ. Not so much for the crafting, but for the info on how mining will work. When asking friends what role they want to play in a multiplayer evolving online world, not a few says blacksmith. They got to get their ore somewhere. 
    mystichazeNeutralEvil
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Tekkon said:
    I loved the DJ. Not so much for the crafting, but for the info on how mining will work. When asking friends what role they want to play in a multiplayer evolving online world, not a few says blacksmith. They got to get their ore somewhere. 
    So your friends are more interested in becoming Miners? I know that is a passion of a couple of players I have in my group. Myself I would rather be a crafter, but crafters will always need gathers. heh
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    Idle Adventures(Runescape etc...) kind of did it first.  Not scripts but still...

    i'll put you down as not being able to come up with one

    "kind of" could include ANY mmo that you could macro in, which with a gaming keyboard is basically all of them

    though there might be others out there (and i'm genuinely interested in finding out if there are others to see how it worked there, this is the first that i know of that allows for offline scripted chores to be handled to allow you to focus on skill based leveling when online
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    Idle Adventures(Runescape etc...) kind of did it first.  Not scripts but still...

    i'll put you down as not being able to come up with one

    "kind of" could include ANY mmo that you could macro in, which with a gaming keyboard is basically all of them

    though there might be others out there (and i'm genuinely interested in finding out if there are others to see how it worked there, this is the first that i know of that allows for offline scripted chores to be handled to allow you to focus on skill based leveling when online
    You can put me down for anything you like. I was actually responding to @SpottyGekko. And actually if you knew anything about IdleAdventures you’d know you don’t even need a keyboard.  It’s just a game that plays itself for you and lets you pop in for the supposed interesting stuff.


    Gdemami

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  • NeutralEvilNeutralEvil Member UncommonPosts: 108
    You can put me down for anything you like. I was actually responding to @SpottyGekko. And actually if you knew anything about IdleAdventures you’d know you don’t even need a keyboard.  It’s just a game that plays itself for you and lets you pop in for the supposed interesting stuff.


    Hence "IdleAdventures" I suppose!

    I must say, since I don't have a lot of time that I can devote to playing games anymore, I might be interested in that. I'm going to check that out!

    (I know this post has nothing to do with crafting in CoE)

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    edited April 2018
    And actually if you knew anything about IdleAdventures you’d know you don’t even need a keyboard.  It’s just a game that plays itself for you and lets you pop in for the supposed interesting stuff.


    can't list one game confirmed 

    a game that plays itself is NOT the same as a game that you can proactively script what you want your character to be doing when you are offline

    ty
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,129
    You can put me down for anything you like. I was actually responding to @SpottyGekko. And actually if you knew anything about IdleAdventures you’d know you don’t even need a keyboard.  It’s just a game that plays itself for you and lets you pop in for the supposed interesting stuff.


    Hence "IdleAdventures" I suppose!

    I must say, since I don't have a lot of time that I can devote to playing games anymore, I might be interested in that. I'm going to check that out!

    (I know this post has nothing to do with crafting in CoE)

    It’s interesting for a few days. Every so often I get the urge to login and see how many billions of items my guys have crafted since I last logged in but just can’t get myself to do it. I think they are F2P so no harm checking it to get a feel for a crafting system that plays itself.
    NeutralEvil

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