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How Crafting will differ in CoE, compared to more traditional MMOs

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Furthermore the obvious,if you have less time as mentioned,how is limiting crafts going to help you at all,there are going to be players in EVERY craft with more time than you,so you will still be behind the eight ball ...forever.

    It so happens i played all the systems,paid very close attention to economies and how stuff works in general.

    The BEST way to keep crafting in check is to make it cumbersome to the point not everyone will want to do it and people will just buy from you rather than spend the time,so EVERYONE wins.

    If it is so easy to craft then obviously nobody will require the services of others and the game will suffer.You also need to make items valuable.

    I wil use an example from within FFXI 10 years after the game started.Ok i said 10 because at that point the low end economy should be dried up dead right...nope.There is a bigger reason but to keep it short,i came back to the game and at level 1-10 i could farm Sheepskin and craft it into sheep leather and sell it for a lot of gold for a noob.
    Reason,that Sheepskin was still needed by high level crafters as crafting was not limited tier by tier like most games do but kept low end stuff important.High level crafters couildn't be bothered to go back to noob zoens and farm sheepskin,so the yjust bought it from noobs,so you see even if LESS time and still a noob you win from this type of design,ev1 wins.

    DleatherusmystichazeAnOldFartNeutralEvil

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,784
    I am pretty sure Mendel that the answer to your question would be No, one character will not be able to be a Master crafter in everything, for all the reasons you gave in your post.  I know this has been discussed before in the community but I just can't recall where I have seen it. I will have a look after supper. :)
    I specifically asked about 'players', not characters.

    Alts contribute more to the issues I mentioned, lack of dependence on other characters and curtailing an economy.  Your main needs a new weapon.  So, you pass the materials to the appropriate crafter alt, they make the item and pass it back.  Where's the economic exchange of wealth?  Where's the dependence on another character?  Where even is the interaction?

    If this game is going to turn into yet another alt fest, it will end up with all the problems other MMORPGs have had, and will offer no new solutions.




    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Hmm, well Mendel I didn't find what I was looking for but I did find this and it might help to answer your question. Keep in mind this is an older Developer Journal and clearly, the actual visual process of crafting system has changed, but I believe everything else remains the same. 

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/663/DJ-9-Crafting-Professions

    Professions in most MMOs such as Weaponsmith, Alchemist, etc. are pre-defined from the beginning. In keeping with our existing classless design principles, Chronicles of Elyria doesn't define specific professions. Instead, it encourages players to take skills from across different skill trees and combine them in unique ways in order to define their own professions.

    As an example, if you're a Blacksmith with a specialty in making weapon blades, that also has skills in carpentry, and maybe in filigree, then you could rightly call yourself a Swordsmith. This level of specialization allows you to reach the higher crafting tiers in the areas you want, while ignoring those that you don't.

    And this.. 

    One thing we've done in an attempt to prevent endless grinding is to, in the case of crafting, provide item specialization. This means that you can become a master of crafting specific items, even before becoming a master at your specific craft or trade. This has to two fundamental implications.

    1. It means that if you want to become a master weapon smith, able to create Sword blades that are unparalleled in the land, you can do that simply by crafting sword blades. You don't have to craft metal tools, axe blades, or metal steaks in order to get your blacksmithing skills high enough. Spend your time focusing on the things you want to make.

    2. As we'll talk about more in a later design journal, CoE is a game of technology and research. At some point in the future someone may (hypothetically speaking) discover the ability to make longbows, recurve bows, and eventually compound bows. In other MMOs, the discovery of a recurve bow would force all new players to grind through knowledge of how to make short bows and long bows just to learn how to make a recurve bow.

    This results in wasted time, and wasted resources. In Chronicles of Elyria, if you were to discover or learn how to make Recurve Bows, your success in doing so would of course be influenced by your overall Crafting Skills in Ranged Weapons and Carpentry, however there's nothing preventing you from jumping straight to Recurve bows and growing your skills on those. Of course, your early results may be horrible, but you'll advance quicker at developing recurve bows if you actually practice making recurve bows, than if you were to practice making short bows.


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,243
    edited April 2018
    Mendel said:
    I am pretty sure Mendel that the answer to your question would be No, one character will not be able to be a Master crafter in everything, for all the reasons you gave in your post.  I know this has been discussed before in the community but I just can't recall where I have seen it. I will have a look after supper. :)
    I specifically asked about 'players', not characters.

    Alts contribute more to the issues I mentioned, lack of dependence on other characters and curtailing an economy.  Your main needs a new weapon.  So, you pass the materials to the appropriate crafter alt, they make the item and pass it back.  Where's the economic exchange of wealth?  Where's the dependence on another character?  Where even is the interaction?

    If this game is going to turn into yet another alt fest, it will end up with all the problems other MMORPGs have had, and will offer no new solutions.




    Had not thought of that.  Good point.  With the built in scripting for offline characters it would seem that it could encourage exactly what you describe.  You could set a blacksmith alt to make a sword while you go off and mine(or vice versa)...  Then set them both to scripted functions while you play with your "adventure" character.   Seems quite possible.


    MendelGdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!

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    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,784
    <snipped for brevity>

    Regarding the first part:  Technically you can try to work on anything you want, but you only gain skill in what you use. You age and die and then get a skill ramp to relearn those skills faster.  So I think in practice it would be impossible to be "good" at more than a few things.

    Regarding the last part:  Until there is something tangible to see and play with, it will always come down to believers and realists.

    Someday there will be an actual game and then there will be no more discussions about what might happen. Until then it provides plenty of fodder to keep the forums flowing.
     
    Everything you say is perfectly true.

    But I will point out that the believers do not hesitate to treat anyone who questions anything about this project as 'heretics' and 'lepers'.  You've gotten it.  I've gotten it.  Others have gotten the same treatment.  Yet, no one who does have questions about this project has labeled the supporters as 'gullible' or 'easily swayed' or 'mindless'.  I've not seen anything as simple as 'I believe in this project and this development team, and here is why' to try to convince, persuade or educate us great unwashed.  Attacks, yes.  Support for their belief, no.

    At this point, I can't help but wonder which side is harming this project more?  What happens when the fervent supporters drive away the casually curious?




    Slapshot1188GdemamiNeutralEvilmystichaze

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Mendel said:
    I am pretty sure Mendel that the answer to your question would be No, one character will not be able to be a Master crafter in everything, for all the reasons you gave in your post.  I know this has been discussed before in the community but I just can't recall where I have seen it. I will have a look after supper. :)
    I specifically asked about 'players', not characters.

    Alts contribute more to the issues I mentioned, lack of dependence on other characters and curtailing an economy.  Your main needs a new weapon.  So, you pass the materials to the appropriate crafter alt, they make the item and pass it back.  Where's the economic exchange of wealth?  Where's the dependence on another character?  Where even is the interaction?

    If this game is going to turn into yet another alt fest, it will end up with all the problems other MMORPGs have had, and will offer no new solutions.




    I never thought about it like that and I can definitely see where alts could be a problem, as they are in other games. I would like to hear what SBS has to say regarding that as well, sorry for the misunderstanding. But the first thing that comes to mind for me is the cost involved in having alts in CoE.

    You would have to pay for a spark for every alt you have and that could get expensive depending on just how specialized characters are in their trades. In addition to there being a three to five limit on characters per account :) 

    PS, since we posted at the same time I guess you are mistaken. I am more than willing to keep an open mind and question things that make sense to me and aren't just outright attacks on the game. As for never being labeled? I am more than willing to PM you posts where those that have questions have labeled me many things just because I support the game. 
    Post edited by mystichaze on
    NeutralEvil
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,784
    Hmm, well Mendel I didn't find what I was looking for but I did find this and it might help to answer your question. Keep in mind this is an older Developer Journal and clearly, the actual visual process of crafting system has changed, but I believe everything else remains the same. 

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/663/DJ-9-Crafting-Professions

    Professions in most MMOs such as Weaponsmith, Alchemist, etc. are pre-defined from the beginning. In keeping with our existing classless design principles, Chronicles of Elyria doesn't define specific professions. Instead, it encourages players to take skills from across different skill trees and combine them in unique ways in order to define their own professions.

    As an example, if you're a Blacksmith with a specialty in making weapon blades, that also has skills in carpentry, and maybe in filigree, then you could rightly call yourself a Swordsmith. This level of specialization allows you to reach the higher crafting tiers in the areas you want, while ignoring those that you don't.

    And this.. 

    One thing we've done in an attempt to prevent endless grinding is to, in the case of crafting, provide item specialization. This means that you can become a master of crafting specific items, even before becoming a master at your specific craft or trade. This has to two fundamental implications.

    1. It means that if you want to become a master weapon smith, able to create Sword blades that are unparalleled in the land, you can do that simply by crafting sword blades. You don't have to craft metal tools, axe blades, or metal steaks in order to get your blacksmithing skills high enough. Spend your time focusing on the things you want to make.

    2. As we'll talk about more in a later design journal, CoE is a game of technology and research. At some point in the future someone may (hypothetically speaking) discover the ability to make longbows, recurve bows, and eventually compound bows. In other MMOs, the discovery of a recurve bow would force all new players to grind through knowledge of how to make short bows and long bows just to learn how to make a recurve bow.

    This results in wasted time, and wasted resources. In Chronicles of Elyria, if you were to discover or learn how to make Recurve Bows, your success in doing so would of course be influenced by your overall Crafting Skills in Ranged Weapons and Carpentry, however there's nothing preventing you from jumping straight to Recurve bows and growing your skills on those. Of course, your early results may be horrible, but you'll advance quicker at developing recurve bows if you actually practice making recurve bows, than if you were to practice making short bows.


    No distinction between players and characters, so this really doesn't address the question at all.  

    But the quotes seem to imply that learning skills will not be restricted on the same character.  It will only be restricted by the player's time and resources.  A brief prediction.  There will be players who will willingly waste their time and resources to do everything themselves, either on a single character or on their personal array of alts.

    So, it doesn't appear to offer even the slightest nod to historical reality.  Once accepted as an apprentice to a Blacksmith, one could not simply change their mind and persue Carpentry or Tailoring.  Trades were very secretive, and Masters of one profession were very hesitant to accept any new apprentice who had washed out or abandoned another craft.  

    I'm amazed at the apparent devotion to historical accuracy on the technical side of crafting, but complete neglect to the accuracy on the social aspects of crafting.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    Mendel said:

    Everything you say is perfectly true.

    But I will point out that the believers do not hesitate to treat anyone who questions anything about this project as 'heretics' and 'lepers'.  You've gotten it.  I've gotten it.  Others have gotten the same treatment.  Yet, no one who does have questions about this project has labeled the supporters as 'gullible' or 'easily swayed' or 'mindless'.  I've not seen anything as simple as 'I believe in this project and this development team, and here is why' to try to convince, persuade or educate us great unwashed.  Attacks, yes.  Support for their belief, no.

    At this point, I can't help but wonder which side is harming this project more?  What happens when the fervent supporters drive away the casually curious?




    i would counter that it happens frequently in reverse as well - labeling people white knights, members of the ivory tower etc has the very distinct effect of setting up an "us and them" mentality, calling everything a pipe dream, ridiculing comments made and so on

    remember that it was caspian that used the phrase "harbinger" not myself or anybody else in here - it was in turn the people who relished being called that, that started calling people who had a different view point to theirs 'members of the ivory tower', the reason why CoE is going to fail and so on

    even in this thread Slapshot has used the terms of "believers and realists"

    the implication being that supporters of the game aren't realists, whereas many of us are keenly aware of the potential problems of the game, missed deadlines etc it's just that doesn't happen to be the sole thing that we like to discuss in each and every thread

    mystichazeAnOldFartNeutralEvil
  • NeutralEvilNeutralEvil Member UncommonPosts: 108
    edited April 2018
    SNIP
    Mendel said:
    No distinction between players and characters, so this really doesn't address the question at all.  

    But the quotes seem to imply that learning skills will not be restricted on the same character.  It will only be restricted by the player's time and resources.  A brief prediction.  There will be players who will willingly waste their time and resources to do everything themselves, either on a single character or on their personal array of alts.




    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    DleatherusAnOldFartGdemamimystichaze
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    NeutralEvil
  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member RarePosts: 552

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    Also said group of players would each be able to specialse in different areas (Swordsmith, Armourer etc.) where as the one player would effectively put in double the effort per alt to specialise each of them
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,784

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    GdemamiNeutralEvil

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    All this talk about using alts so that one player is able to provide for all their own needs got me wondering about crafting stations themselves. There hasn't been any talk that I know of in regard to whether or not the stations are available for public use, or are they privately owned by families and businesses? If they are privately owned it would definitely make things a little more complicated for those that want to utilize alts for crafting purposes. 

    Just some food for thought...
    GdemamiNeutralEvil
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Mendel said:

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    Because SBS is doing something different in creating Elyria by allowing their community to be part of the development process with the use of VoxElyria, it would make it more difficult to offer concrete explanations and videos until after the features have been playtested and adjusted according to feedback. 


    NeutralEvil
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,784
    Mendel said:

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    Because SBS is doing something different in creating Elyria by allowing their community to be part of the development process with the use of VoxElyria, it would make it more difficult to offer concrete explanations and videos until after the features have been playtested and adjusted according to feedback. 


    Developing without a concrete plan is known as cowboy coding.  It has been a major problem in the computer industry for decades.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Mendel said:
    Mendel said:

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    Because SBS is doing something different in creating Elyria by allowing their community to be part of the development process with the use of VoxElyria, it would make it more difficult to offer concrete explanations and videos until after the features have been playtested and adjusted according to feedback. 


    Developing without a concrete plan is known as cowboy coding.  It has been a major problem in the computer industry for decades.



    Just because you don't get what -you- expect in dev Journals doesn't mean they don't have a concrete plan. It only means you don't completely understand their plan at this time. Patience is a virtue.  
    NeutralEvil
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    Mendel said:

    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    i  agree with you on the digging for snippets part, though for a different reason

    changes to concepts as they make their way from idea to production are common in pretty much every industry i can think of, not just the gaming industry

    some are because the company (in any industry) didn't, as you say, have their shit together, and in other cases it's because during the process the original concept would do the job but they discovered a better way to improve the original concept, or replace it with better one

    it can be difficult/speculative to discern the difference at times

    for me it is the frustration of at times knowing what is the current version, and in a game this complex and ambitious trying to keep track of what aspect/concept is in which stage is a logistical challenge

    one of the solutions to that is that the devs don't share info until a concept is actuality and we don't get to see the evolution process

    personally i prefer the logistics challenge than being kept in ignorance

    ________________________________________

    as for details, well, amidst all that flowery prose that you refer to is actually a fairly detailed explanation of the steps

    allow me to try and extricate them for you:

    to make an iron ingot/billet (basic method - there are more advanced methods that are more efficient, and those are to be discovered so no spoilers on them were given):

    1) go to forge, make sure fuel is in forge, light forge, use bellows to heat coals


    2) place iron ore on the coals - there are several different heating zones within the forge and noticing the colors of the coals, the way they glow, the flames they emit and how the air shimmers above them differentiates the heating zones

    3) monitor iron ore - when it is ready it will change shape slightly and color, and emit a different noise at this point in the heating process

    4) remove iron ore from forge with tongs and move over to anvil

    5) equip hammer in other hand and beat ore to remove bloom/impurities

    6) monitor closely since allowing the ore to cool too much and continuing to beat on it with a hammer might cause the ore to shatter (reheat during process if needed)

    7) place the refined iron into a crucible

    8) heat crucible to melt iron

    9) pour molten iron into a mold to create bars, ingots, billets


    note that once mastered, this process can be used by your OPC via a script so that what you have learned isn't needed to be repeated and thus making it a lengthy chore each time


    mystichaze
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Mendel said:

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    I have to agree, and this issue extends beyond CoE or any particular crowdfunding game.  Crowdfunding devs have a need to keep the hype up because they're at the mercy of gamers, not investors.  Nuts and bolts aren't as effective at that as grandiose plans.

    It's an inherent detriment of the system.  Devs have to try and maintain realistic expectations, but still wow folks enough to throw money at ideas.  Thin line to walk, but again, the devs choose the funding route they take.
    GdemamiSlapshot1188NeutralEvil

    image
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    edited April 2018
    I have to agree, and this issue extends beyond CoE or any particular crowdfunding game.  Crowdfunding devs have a need to keep the hype up because they're at the mercy of gamers, not investors.  Nuts and bolts aren't as effective at that as grandiose plans.

    It's an inherent detriment of the system.  Devs have to try and maintain realistic expectations, but still wow folks enough to throw money at ideas.  Thin line to walk, but again, the devs choose the funding route they take.
    i agree in part on this also

    it's a catch 22, and especially for CoE since it's depth and ambition have many, including publishers, questioning whether it can be pulled off, and if so, how much will be changed/compromised in order to do so

    so without funding, the CoE project dies, with publisher involvement at this stage, the devs vision of the game is compromised

    this leaves crowd funding, and as mentioned by @MadFrenchie, there has to be hype and (ugh! a necessary 'evil' when choosing to go this route - one which i ironically dislike for some reasons, but overall support given some of the other alternatives)) frequent store promotions, for a project that at this snapshot in time, has little to concretely show in terms of solid game footage (it has TONS of stuff in the concept stages (which many are moving forward on their own independant timelines) that has many excited, and many being skeptical about)

    without that there is no funding, which brings us back to with no funding the CoE project dies


    now i can't break NDA, but i will say that things are moving, and that alpha abd beta backers received news that has them excited
    Kyleran
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Dleatherus said:

    now i can't break NDA, but i will say that things are moving, and that alpha 1 backers received news that has them excited
    Indeed! :)
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,784
    Mendel said:
    Mendel said:

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    Because SBS is doing something different in creating Elyria by allowing their community to be part of the development process with the use of VoxElyria, it would make it more difficult to offer concrete explanations and videos until after the features have been playtested and adjusted according to feedback. 


    Developing without a concrete plan is known as cowboy coding.  It has been a major problem in the computer industry for decades.



    Just because you don't get what -you- expect in dev Journals doesn't mean they don't have a concrete plan. It only means you don't completely understand their plan at this time. Patience is a virtue.  
    When there are inconsistencies and contradictory statements, that shows more on their ability to communicate their ideas and plans.  Please don't interpret what I understand.  Even if I don't understand something, that does not absolve them from communicating their intent clearly and concisely.  I stand by my assertion that they haven't communicated their information effectively, making it difficult, if not impossible, to assess what they want to achieve.

    Basically, they seem to be doing development before design.  That is a MAJOR red flag for me.




    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Mendel said:
    Mendel said:
    Mendel said:

    Something else I'd like to point out as my understanding of how the crafting system works is that while "offline" and using "scripts" for your "Offline Playing Character" (OPC) you don't actually gain any skills, or those gains are greatly diminished

    So, if that is true, and the way it's implemented, then having an Alt Blacksmith wouldn't do anything more than make the most basic of equipment for you, something you'd be able to get with a lot less (in my opinion) work/time/money through another player or NPC vendor


    i agree with you

    my understanding is, from the various snippets about it dropped by the devs here and there, is that the current plan is that there is NO skill gain through OPC crafting.

    i think it's great that the plan is your OPC character does all the mundane chore stuff/prep work whilst you are offline, allowing you to focus on the more interesting/challenging stuff when you're online

    my ongoing current concern is that folks with deep pockets can have their own private retinue of alts doing ALL the grunt work and that they have an advantage

    however it's not any advantage over any group of folks working and pooling their efforts together so i don't perceive it as unbalancing the game, and would think such occurrences would be relatively few - experience in past games has me thinking there there will be at least a few that go this route
    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    Because SBS is doing something different in creating Elyria by allowing their community to be part of the development process with the use of VoxElyria, it would make it more difficult to offer concrete explanations and videos until after the features have been playtested and adjusted according to feedback. 


    Developing without a concrete plan is known as cowboy coding.  It has been a major problem in the computer industry for decades.



    Just because you don't get what -you- expect in dev Journals doesn't mean they don't have a concrete plan. It only means you don't completely understand their plan at this time. Patience is a virtue.  
    When there are inconsistencies and contradictory statements, that shows more on their ability to communicate their ideas and plans.  Please don't interpret what I understand.  Even if I don't understand something, that does not absolve them from communicating their intent clearly and concisely.  I stand by my assertion that they haven't communicated their information effectively, making it difficult, if not impossible, to assess what they want to achieve.

    Basically, they seem to be doing development before design.  That is a MAJOR red flag for me.




    I would agree if I believed this is what was happening, perhaps you can point me to the sources that contain inconsistencies and contradictory statements? As Dleatherus summarized in his above post the Developer Journal appears to be clearly communicating their intent with the crafting system.

    I agree that perhaps it has created more questions than answers at this point, but with that, we will just have to be patient until more information is released. I think what might be overlooked in your assessment, is that SBS releases information in the interest of transparency taking us through the journey of development with them. Not only that, they are intending to use their community to further develop their planned mechanics before there is any type of graphic representation of the actual game. 

    These are not things that other games have tried to do. So with that, it is expected that at times there will be alterations to past designs well implementing their plans. I would expect as much in the creation of any game, we just do not always witness it. Still, I Haven't seen any changes, in the last two and a half years, implemented that are inconsistent or contradict the initial design of the game. If you have, then please, provide a source and I will retract my opinion.

    As it has been pointed out several times, CoE is still very much in development and not a finished game. The difference is they allow us to see the process and steps they are taking to try to get to a finished product.
    Post edited by mystichaze on
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,784
    Mendel said:

    I think your post actually highlights one of the reasons that I have issues with this game.  It's the 'various snippets' comment.

    Too much of this game (and most games in-development) are leaving too much up to digging for snippets and stringing these together to formulate a meaning.  It would be so much clearer and concise and less prone to misinterpretation if the developers would say precisely what they mean in clear language.  Leave flowery prose to actual writers.  Don't describe a fanciful sequence of ideas, state actual steps the player will take.

    Of course, being accurate requires some knowledge of how things will actually work.  The piecemeal approach of snippets and hints and innuendo give the overwhelming impression that the developers haven't completely thought these things through.  That sends a bad message to the potential customers.

    I think your comments about the alts and people with deep pockets are very appropriate.  The developers have shown themselves to be okay with paying, and the whales are proven to be okay with paying.  It is if that other 98% of server's population are going to accept this practice is the real issue this game will face.




    i  agree with you on the digging for snippets part, though for a different reason

    changes to concepts as they make their way from idea to production are common in pretty much every industry i can think of, not just the gaming industry

    some are because the company (in any industry) didn't, as you say, have their shit together, and in other cases it's because during the process the original concept would do the job but they discovered a better way to improve the original concept, or replace it with better one

    it can be difficult/speculative to discern the difference at times

    for me it is the frustration of at times knowing what is the current version, and in a game this complex and ambitious trying to keep track of what aspect/concept is in which stage is a logistical challenge

    one of the solutions to that is that the devs don't share info until a concept is actuality and we don't get to see the evolution process

    personally i prefer the logistics challenge than being kept in ignorance

    ________________________________________

    as for details, well, amidst all that flowery prose that you refer to is actually a fairly detailed explanation of the steps

    allow me to try and extricate them for you:

    to make an iron ingot/billet (basic method - there are more advanced methods that are more efficient, and those are to be discovered so no spoilers on them were given):

    1) go to forge, make sure fuel is in forge, light forge, use bellows to heat coals


    2) place iron ore on the coals - there are several different heating zones within the forge and noticing the colors of the coals, the way they glow, the flames they emit and how the air shimmers above them differentiates the heating zones

    3) monitor iron ore - when it is ready it will change shape slightly and color, and emit a different noise at this point in the heating process

    4) remove iron ore from forge with tongs and move over to anvil

    5) equip hammer in other hand and beat ore to remove bloom/impurities

    6) monitor closely since allowing the ore to cool too much and continuing to beat on it with a hammer might cause the ore to shatter (reheat during process if needed)

    7) place the refined iron into a crucible

    8) heat crucible to melt iron

    9) pour molten iron into a mold to create bars, ingots, billets


    note that once mastered, this process can be used by your OPC via a script so that what you have learned isn't needed to be repeated and thus making it a lengthy chore each time


    Your example is just that. yours.  It is your interpretation of actions and interfaces that they have chosen to not tell us.  Not that I disagree with your interpretation, nor would my interpretation of the same passage be significantly different from yours.  It's a reasonably good depiction of a step-by-step of possible player interactions.  (I'd have been much, much happier with a list like yours than the document they provided).

    That doesn't mean it is an exact duplicate of what the developers are using, or going to use.

    Somewhere there should be a series of UML models or some equivalent that describe precisely what actions should be taken and an order these activities occur.  I just don't know that this is actually going on out-of-view, based on the vagueness and unnecessary depiction in that description.

    For example, the fictional example depicts the craftsman mentally accusing his apprentice for not setting things up correctly.  (That's the only specific example I remember from the text).  Is having materials and the workspace set up in a predefined state a mandatory step in the developer's minds?  You and I might not interpret the passage in that manner, but it might be a possible alternative interpretation.  Maybe this means there's not enough time to run back to the bank to get a missing tool once the process is started, i.e., everything must be available (in the craftsman's inventory) once the process is started.  The interpretation of this relatively insignificant segment of the document can change the implementation details.

    ----------
    The issues with the snippets and the question of applicability that you raise (is this info current?) can be handled by requirements management, a subset of change management/version management.  As requirements change (the design changes or decisions change), RM would deal with this by versioning each incremental change/set of changes.  That we are seeing snippets on information that seem to contradict each other makes me think that this project isn't taking a rigorous approach to development and design, and what we are seeing is different versions of the information at various stages of the design process.  Again, maybe this is going on in the inner working of the project, but evidence that this is occurring isn't visible to us.




    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    Mendel said:

    Your example is just that. yours.  It is your interpretation of actions and interfaces that they have chosen to not tell us.  Not that I disagree with your interpretation, nor would my interpretation of the same passage be significantly different from yours.  It's a reasonably good depiction of a step-by-step of possible player interactions.  (I'd have been much, much happier with a list like yours than the document they provided).

    That doesn't mean it is an exact duplicate of what the developers are using, or going to use.


    the steps aren't my interpretation, they are the specific steps mentioned in the dev journal

    i also prefer a straight list - it's how my brain works

    i also know that many more than me love how it was presented - different people transmit and/or process info in different ways ie. engineer types like straight lists, no frills, - artistic types prefer the more verbose style with a story woven into it

    no right or wrong per se

    personally i look upon it that the list is in the verbose form, and thus can be easily extrapolated

    if it were presented as just a straight list, the story part would be missing and could not be extrapolated

    therefore i personally have no issue whatsoever with how it was presented, even though i had to extract that info which was of interest to me, and discard the other stuff which wasn't
    mystichazeAnOldFart
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Post deleted do to the irralance to the intended Crafting System in CoE
    Post edited by mystichaze on
    Dleatherus
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