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How Crafting will differ in CoE, compared to more traditional MMOs

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  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168


    FTFY

    yw
    AnOldFartNeutralEvilmystichaze
  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 213
    Being serious though, I hope this is not what they hinge their three years of development on

    Are they planning a certain date where they reveal a good amount of info or tech demos?

    This game is looking at a 2020/2021 release date at this rate, and I say that without any pie charts or cornell notes
    Gdemami
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Ok, let us try this example even though it isn't as complex as CoE intends to make their crafting system. ESO lockpicking takes not only character skill but a certain degree of Player Skill. Triggers for the players to learn are sound and resistance in order to be successful in picking a lock without breaking their pick. With time and practice, they can acquire the player skill needed to be successful almost every time. Yet, I have met players that just can't seem to get it right and curse the lock picking system. 

    This feature takes Character Skill as well as Player Skill in order to be successful. Just as the Crafting system in CoE is expected to have. :) 
    NeutralEvilDleatherusAnOldFartWellspringKyleran
  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member RarePosts: 554
    An update from their forums

    Posted By Malais at 06:13 AM - Thu Apr 05 2018
    Keep in mind NPCs still need to be able to do everything in the crafting DJ. So I’d imagine there is Player crafting which Snipehunter spoke about while a simple “numbers game” crafting setup is what NPCs or OPCs can do.
    That's fairly accurate. The same model that decides when to present challenges to a player is used in either case, but for NPCs and OPCs we resolve them "behind the scenes" instead of running the interface and the like.
    Posted By Kyxsune at 06:18 AM - Thu Apr 05 2018
    Given craft challenges, if it is a numbers game, the failure rate for an OPC will probably end up higher than that of a PC. Subject to balancing though.
    That's also a fair cop. That isn't necessarily the case every single time an NPC or OPC crafts but, in general, that's true.
    Posted By Lady Grace at 1:34 PM - Thu Apr 05 2018
    I fully expect that things you once did as a novice your OPC will be able to do once you are skilled, so that for example turning a huge pile of ore into standard iron billets might be something your OPC does. If you want to use rare ore to make a special steel that you will use for the blade of your latest materpiece ... you will be doing that online, not OPC.
    Pragmatically, that's how it falls out, for sure. In essence, your OPC and NPCs have no player skill to fall back on to get through a challenge, so they are less likely to succeed through challenges that above their skill level. Give an OPC a job that would challenge you while you were online and you're going to come back to a failure, pretty much always. But, on the other hand, give your OPC a job that isn't likely to generate difficult challenges or that doesn't generate challenges at all and you'll most likely come back to a success.
    So, if you're interested in pursuing only the "fun" bits of the job, leave your OPC to do all the grunt work while you're not playing. ;)

    NeutralEvilmystichaze
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    It will differ by not launching due to all of this feature creep.
    Slapshot1188FrodoFragins
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Snipehunter Said:

    Pragmatically, that's how it falls out, for sure. In essence, your OPC and NPCs have no player skill to fall back on to get through a challenge, so they are less likely to succeed through challenges that above their skill level. Give an OPC a job that would challenge you while you were online and you're going to come back to a failure, pretty much always. But, on the other hand, give your OPC a job that isn't likely to generate difficult challenges or that doesn't generate challenges at all and you'll most likely come back to a success.
    So, if you're interested in pursuing only the "fun" bits of the job, leave your OPC to do all the grunt work while you're not playing.



    So with this additional information perhaps Crafting isn't going to be as time-consuming as I first perceived it to be in the DJ. For example, in blacksmithing, once you/your character knows the process of melting down Ore and making billets of iron or steel for crafting they will be able to perform this task as OPCs. That means that when you log back in, you will have the materials already ready for you to begin crafting... Awesome!

    In addition what Caspian states here also provides information on time saving features that are planned for Crafting...

    Caspian Said:

    That's the beauty of this system. It dissociates skills from crafting requirements.

    In most MMOs, you'd need to make 100 daggers (a lower level item), before you can make longswords (a higher level items). In this scenario, being able to craft daggers is a requirement to crafting swords.

    In CoE, we want to be able to introduce new technology throughout the 10 year story, and we don't want people to have to craft lower "tier" items a bunch of times just to be able to craft the hot new tech.

    That said, in CoE, daggers and swords might require mastery/knowledge of the same techniques. That means with the introduction of the new technology, you can "cut your teeth" on either. You still need to be proficient in the right techniques, but you can learn them while crafting either daggers or swords.


    And I understand further just how specialized crafters are expected to be and how it allows for individual players to become legionary in different aspects of the same profession.  For example, Blacksmith A makes the best Swords in the region, but if you want armor you are better off dealing with Blacksmith B. Or am I perceiving this wrong?

    OMG Dleatherus, I can't wait till your Q&A with Snipehunter. :)
    DleatherusNeutralEvil
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    edited April 2018
    AnOldFart ty for sharing that - mirrors what I had said so really good to hear

    crafting like smithing etc isn't my thing so i had forgotten about that when @mystichaze first created this thread

    this has our crafters excited that what many of them see as the chore part (such as smelting ore into ingots over and over and having to keep an eye on it) will be taken out of the process

    at the same time improving skills is going to be challenging, something they say has been lacking in many other games, usually it being just a matter of getting more crafting xp by crafting 1,000 iron helms to be able to unlock the next level of crafting 1,000 iron swords etc, and thus it wasn't so much of an interesting skills challenges, as just a boring grind to get from level 1 to level 100

    for me this raises another question: if the crafters using the resources will be able to OPC stuff they already know, how does this effect the resource gatherers such as miners, lumberjacks etc?

    this then branches out into more speculative questions

    will they be able to OPC gather stuff they already recognize? (presumably at greater risk of being attacked - or in the case of an herb gatherer, bushwhacked :P )

    is there a point where the world becomes populated by a bunch of afk/OPC characters?

    if the OPC script won't allow for auto gathering, does it then suck to be a grunt resource gatherer?

    if the OPC script does allow for auto gathering, are we going to see a lot of alt account OPC's harvesting stuff liek crazy to feed the skill raising of select 'main' characters?

    edited for follow up speculative question of:

    does it mean whales (like myself) are able to have an army of OPC characters harvesting resources and then having a distinct advantage in trying to get to be legendary, or does it create a dynamic of where other players make it their 'profession' to hunt down and kill/loot OPC's out gathering resources and thus negate that potential advantage?

    might be things to ask Snipehunter during the livestream
    Slapshot1188
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 22,260
    edited April 2018
    What this sounds like it will end up being are crafting QTEs (similar in concept to EQ2) with NPC retainers that do jobs like STO Duty Officers. The part where I feel they oversold in the diary pertains to how detailed players will get in the crafting. From the information, which is vague and spotty, it sounds like practically that will mean a QTE per step with several steps.

    The feedback I'd give the team on this is to more clearly separate the lore from the mechanics. The diary  would have been great with clear explanations of how that game play loop will play out. For example:

    "To harvest an herb the player will need to exercise skill in where to grab the plant and how to extract it properly for the best yield. Their knowledge of herbalism will define their success.

    When a player approaches a plant node they will zoom in on an interactive graphic of the plant. A QTE will commence with the player using audio and visual cues to complete the event. The character's skill in herbalism will grant the player a wider band and more time to complete the event with a greater likelihood of rarer materials."

    Or something along those lines. Explaining a new system while steeping it in lore and leaving extremely light on details isn't helpful to sell the game. Early adopters will cheer at any announcement because they've already bought in.

    Crafters are details people. A good crafting system is rife with details and requires planning and organization. Vague PR blurbs are nice because lore gives the game flavor, but leaving out meaty details is frustrating. In short, too much fluff, not enough meat.
    AnOldFartSlapshot1188NeutralEvil
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    at the same time improving skills is going to be challenging, something they say has been lacking in many other games, usually it being just a matter of getting more crafting xp by crafting 1,000 iron helms to be able to unlock the next level of crafting 1,000 iron swords etc, and thus it wasn't so much of an interesting skills challenges, as just a boring grind to get from level 1 to level 100
    Yet, at the end they both end up the same grind - the 'challenge' will be long gone once you repeat the process enough times.

    Imo these 'ideas' belong more into a realm of fantasy rather than good game design.
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Gdemami said:
    at the same time improving skills is going to be challenging, something they say has been lacking in many other games, usually it being just a matter of getting more crafting xp by crafting 1,000 iron helms to be able to unlock the next level of crafting 1,000 iron swords etc, and thus it wasn't so much of an interesting skills challenges, as just a boring grind to get from level 1 to level 100
    Yet, at the end they both end up the same grind - the 'challenge' will be long gone once you repeat the process enough times.

    Imo these 'ideas' belong more into a realm of fantasy rather than good game design.
    Not to discredit your opinion. I am genuinely curious what has lead you to believe that CoEs crafting system will be a grind? I could see where it might take more effort in professions like Alchemy where you would need to be gathering resources more often since you are dealing with plants. (Something that isn't recyclable) But in professions like blacksmithing, you only need to acquire enough resources to create the items you desire to make, in addition, there is intended to be recycling features wherein you would be able to meltdown unwanted equipment to make something new.

    Also from what we know from Caspian's post, you are not required to grind huge amounts of resources (Resources are finite) and make massive amounts of unwanted equipment in order to advance your skill instead you are expected to practice technique. So you only need to acquire the amount resources needed to be successful in making what you need/want.


    NeutralEvil
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545



    Also.. there is no video because it doesn't exist.  It's just a theoretical paper on what he wants to do... which was kind of my point.   It would be MUCH easier to have a rational discussion about how crafting is different in CoE when you can actually see it in action. 

    Someday we will see it.   Someday...

    Are you really sure about that?
    Slapshot1188NeutralEvil
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Tiamat64 said:



    Also.. there is no video because it doesn't exist.  It's just a theoretical paper on what he wants to do... which was kind of my point.   It would be MUCH easier to have a rational discussion about how crafting is different in CoE when you can actually see it in action. 

    Someday we will see it.   Someday...

    Are you really sure about that?
    I am confident that once the alpha 1 players have tested the mechanics and offered their feedback on the structure of crafting system in VoxElyria, something visual will be released to the public.  However, I wouldn't expect anything concrete before that process begins. :)
    Kyleran
  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 213
    It's looking like a ponzi scheme, I'm giving Caspian a dead-line. If he and his gantt charts don't produce something worth while in the next journal, then he might get hit with the RICO.
    DleatherusmystichazeSlapshot1188NeutralEvilKyleran
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,438
    Is there a TLDR version of the crafting system? I don't care enough about crafting in general to read an entire book on it. 
    TLDR:

    the intended crafting mechanics, regardless of profession, aren't going to be your standard mundane stuff 2,000lbs of ore into my backpack, smelt it in 20 seconds at a forge and make a legendary sword 20 seconds later with my alt

    in essence it is a detailed and involved system

    remember that it has been said that only 1% of players in any given profession will be legendary at any one moment in time

    this is going to turn some people off, and attract others


    That's an understatement.

    My opinion is that those systems will turn off far more than they will attract.

    I'll certainly keep an eye on the game from afar
    Slapshot1188Gdemamimystichaze
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Is there a TLDR version of the crafting system? I don't care enough about crafting in general to read an entire book on it. 
    TLDR:

    the intended crafting mechanics, regardless of profession, aren't going to be your standard mundane stuff 2,000lbs of ore into my backpack, smelt it in 20 seconds at a forge and make a legendary sword 20 seconds later with my alt

    in essence it is a detailed and involved system

    remember that it has been said that only 1% of players in any given profession will be legendary at any one moment in time

    this is going to turn some people off, and attract others


    That's an understatement.

    My opinion is that those systems will turn off far more than they will attract.

    I'll certainly keep an eye on the game from afar
    I agree that the crafting system definitely won't be to everyone's taste. But I think people like myself and those that have posted in CoEs thread are very excited by the prospect of having a crafting system that is going to be a bit of a challenge and mean something if you are to become successful in it. :)

    So I think there will be a good percentage of players that enjoy crafting in games, that will find this system interesting. 
    NeutralEvil
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    That's an understatement.

    My opinion is that those systems will turn off far more than they will attract.

    I'll certainly keep an eye on the game from afar
    Pretty much.

    All sort of mini-games are deemed to end up as annoying after certain time. The more 'engaging' you make it, worse it will end.

    It is just bad idea...
    Kyleran
  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member RarePosts: 554
    Gdemami said:
    That's an understatement.

    My opinion is that those systems will turn off far more than they will attract.

    I'll certainly keep an eye on the game from afar
    Pretty much.

    All sort of mini-games are deemed to end up as annoying after certain time. The more 'engaging' you make it, worse it will end.

    It is just bad idea...
    Not entirely convinced with this, I prefer crafting in MMORPGs, i always want to be the crafter with all the rare recipes.
    Unfortunately I have a quite extensive life outside of games and get very little time to play these days. So those that can grind through the mobs to pick up said recipes always beat me, and for them it's just a side to their mainly raiding gameplay.

    This allows me to out my precious time into my craft whilst allowing my character the ability to grind through the ores.

    Therefore because I will aim to master these mechanics in my precious gaming time I can become the best at my craft, and those who prefer "raiding" will not be able to beat me just because they have more time.
    NeutralEvilmystichazeGdemami
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018

    Snipehunter Said on discord:

    Snipehunter: Since weapons are componential, you can make pretty much any weapon you can think of. You just need the right components. So, want a Katana? Get yourself a recipe for a curved single edged blade with a hidden tang, a recipe for the handle wrap, and one for the guard and then assemble them into a katana. As for how you get recipes: Existing recipes are going to be found, purchased or taught in the world. Experimentation is a different thing though: Many of the techniques you can employ are interchangeable and each of them changes the properties passed into the weapon, so depending on how you want to the weapon to perform you'd use different techniques. It's possible for techniques to impart visual changes as well, but in most cases the way a weapon looks is dictated by the components you use while the way it performs is about materials used and techniques employed.

    Snipehunter: There are a couple of ways. At the highest levels of a trade skill you can take some of the work you've done and combine it into a recipe. E.g. you can make a recipe that uses existing techniques and/or component requirements to create a customized recipe. But for wholly new things you'll need to do research. The research system isn't something I'm ready to go into a ton of details on, but the idea is that through research you can "inform" us of the new content we need to create, sorta. So anything that requires legitimate new content has to go through the research system.

    Just a couple more tidbits on the Crafting System that Snipehunter released in CoE discord. :)
    DleatherusKyleran
  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member RarePosts: 554
    edited April 2018
    Existing recipes are going to be found, purchased or taught in the world.

    That worries me
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,080
    AnOldFart said:
    Existing recipes are going to be found, purchased or taught in the world.

    That worries me
    It’s always been known that you can buy things like recipies, blueprints etc in the cash shop.  Perhaps @Dleatherus can ask the devs in his stream if there is any chance that they will sell recipies after the 3 month no wipe Exposition. In the past they were clear that only Sparks and RNG SoulPacks would be sold, but recently they have said other things could be sold if also made/found in game without buying.


    AnOldFart

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    hrmmm - i interpreted that as being able to purchase from NPC's or other players

    i can see the ambivalence though and think it is a question that merits asking 

    ty for suggesting to do so
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,080
    edited April 2018
    hrmmm - i interpreted that as being able to purchase from NPC's or other players

    i can see the ambivalence though and think it is a question that merits asking 

    ty for suggesting to do so
    Well the only question is whether you might buy them post launch.  We know you can buy them for real money from now through the 3 month no wipe Headstart. We know this because they are listed as items you can buy in Caspien’s post:  https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/19128/ep-kits-and-item-projection

    And dont forget about being able to buy Technology Upgrade Kits:
    Techology Kits: 5,000 EP
    Each biome has a specific set of resources, and specific needs. However, within each biome there is often more than one way to solve a problem and the technology kits offer the additional of universities and schools to help foster learning in specific areas, as well as the introduction of specific technologies into the kingdom which may help solve problems in new ways. Technology kits will include the buildings for schools, as well as the patterns and techniques for advanced technology. Individual EP ranges from several hundreds to a thousand for the colleges and universities, to 100+ EP for the patterns and techniques, depending on level of advancement.
    AnOldFart

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    yeah - been aware for a long time that we could buy them before/during expo
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    hrmmm - i interpreted that as being able to purchase from NPC's or other players

    i can see the ambivalence though and think it is a question that merits asking 

    ty for suggesting to do so
    Well the only question is whether you might buy them post launch.  We know you can buy them for real money from now through the 3 month no wipe Headstart. We know this because they are listed as items you can buy in Caspien’s post:  https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/19128/ep-kits-and-item-projection

    And dont forget about being able to buy Technology Upgrade Kits:
    Techology Kits: 5,000 EP
    Each biome has a specific set of resources, and specific needs. However, within each biome there is often more than one way to solve a problem and the technology kits offer the additional of universities and schools to help foster learning in specific areas, as well as the introduction of specific technologies into the kingdom which may help solve problems in new ways. Technology kits will include the buildings for schools, as well as the patterns and techniques for advanced technology. Individual EP ranges from several hundreds to a thousand for the colleges and universities, to 100+ EP for the patterns and techniques, depending on level of advancement.
    The parts you left out this time Slapshot is these kits can only be purchased by Kings or Dukes. In addition to the fact that they can only purchase -one- type of kit each. So no, not just anyone can buy them during the world building phase (exposition). They are intended to be implemented in the purchaser's region if they want to focus on Technology, for example and will be available for the use of all those that enter into that region after launch, not only one single player. 

    https://chroniclesofelyria.gamepedia.com/Schools
    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/1109/DJ-13-Technology-Research

    Schools in Chronicles of Elyria represent a collection or group of people dedicated to the furthering of education, research, and technology. Organizational structure and funding incorporates membership fees from some students who are required to pay for access to school resources, as well as grant funding from the Kingdom, Duchy, County, or Settlement they reside in.

    Advantages

    Being part of a school gives members increased and rapid opportunity for learning, which comes in the form of consolidated access to different skill trainers (or teachers) and specialized research tools.

    When a new technology is discovered, all students immediately gain access to the new knowledge where in other organizations like guilds, the new technology would be patented and could be sold to others.

    Disadvantages

    Since schools share technological developments any new technology discovered within the school is freely available to anyone.

    Research

    Schools function as academic institutions that forego production and profit for research and development. Schools also allow for the safer study of new technologies through specialized tools. As such, members of the school share research, which greatly increases the change of new discoveries. Indeed, compared to guilds, schools do not pursue patents for their discovered technology, making it available for public use immediately.

    Post edited by mystichaze on
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    hrmmm - i interpreted that as being able to purchase from NPC's or other players

    i can see the ambivalence though and think it is a question that merits asking 

    ty for suggesting to do so
    Now getting back on topic, I also understood this as the recipes being able to be purchased in-game from NPCs or other Players, but if you can get some clarification Dleatherus that would be awesome. 
    AnOldFart
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