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How Crafting will differ in CoE, compared to more traditional MMOs

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560
    Haha.. Sometime Slapshot you remind me of a bitter ex. No matter what SBS does, you always attempt to twist it into your negative outlook about them. Look, we get it, the game isn't for you and that is ok, but some of us are very excited about what SBS is trying to do. 

    Will this type of crafting be for everyone? No, as Dleatherus said it isn't something he wants to do in-game. But just as in real life we all have different interests and a more realistic crafting system is exciting for the demographic that enjoys this type of gameplay. For those that don't enjoy the system I am sure there will be plenty other things for them to do in the Game.  And well if they don't like the game at all well there are plenty of other Thempark, and Sandbox games out there to choose from. 
    You asked to focus on the mechanics.  I literally described the mechanics to forge an iron Ingot as depicted in the dev diary.  Now you ignore it to yet again attack Slapshot and deflect.   Do you want to discuss the mechanics or not?   Which part of the post you WTFed is wrong?  Which mechanic did I improperly describe?   The guy literally used 7 paragraphs to describe the process of making an Iron Ingot.  It’s possible I mixed up a step. Maybe the tongs were before the hammer...


    Kyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 213
    “It’s better to feel real than be real.”

    Rhetorical sludge, show something worth-while. I guess the entire team is full of philosophers, if you think people bantering on a forum is pointless, then I guess the same could be said of CoE and it's studio for showing nothing but pictures and paragraphs despite getting 3/4 Million in funding.

    Looking at their forums and progress, I guess you could say imagining the game actually being made is better than the actual game being made
    XodicMendelGdemamiKyleran
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    AnOldFart Said.

    Is what is mentioned possible?
    Would you like to see these features?
    Would you want an in depth crafting like this or would you rather it was simple point and click?

    Getting back to what you said earlier OldFart, I was wondering how you felt about the Crafting features CoE is planning to implement? Being as you are not a backer, and have an unbiased opinion I am genuinely curious to know how you feel about it. 

    I know for me, I was interested in becoming an Alchemist but now I wonder if I would have the time for both Alchemy and running a County. heh
    Slapshot1188NeutralEvil
  • PaulChattertonPaulChatterton Member UncommonPosts: 16
    No, Mystichaze, you probably won't. People have said that CoE is pay-to-win because it has been possible to buy baronies, counties, duchies and kingdoms during Kickstarter, but I think we are going to find the responsibilities of nobility mean that we won't have time for things that common folk take for granted. I have purchased a Baron pack and am expecting that I'll be too busy running my barony to be able to master a crafting profession, or even be an adventurer.
    mystichazeNeutralEvil
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    No, Mystichaze, you probably won't. People have said that CoE is pay-to-win because it has been possible to buy baronies, counties, duchies and kingdoms during Kickstarter, but I think we are going to find the responsibilities of nobility mean that we won't have time for things that common folk take for granted. I have purchased a Baron pack and am expecting that I'll be too busy running my barony to be able to master a crafting profession, or even be an adventurer.
    I totally agree. Taking on these positions means a lot of responsibility. In addition to the extra risk, they will be taking if they dare go out adventuring. I know one thing for certain I am not envious of those that took on the king/queen roles, it is far to much work for me to want to do. I think they are even starting to feel the pressure of their roles now before the game has even started. 
    Slapshot1188AnOldFart
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560
    No, Mystichaze, you probably won't. People have said that CoE is pay-to-win because it has been possible to buy baronies, counties, duchies and kingdoms during Kickstarter, but I think we are going to find the responsibilities of nobility mean that we won't have time for things that common folk take for granted. I have purchased a Baron pack and am expecting that I'll be too busy running my barony to be able to master a crafting profession, or even be an adventurer.
    I totally agree. Taking on these positions means a lot of responsibility. In addition to the extra risk, they will be taking if they dare go out adventuring. I know one thing for certain I am not envious of those that took on the king/queen roles, it is far to much work for me to want to do. I think they are even starting to feel the pressure of their roles now before the game has even started. 
    Good thing we are focused on the MECHANICS OF CRAFTING as you asked.  Perhaps you could start a new thread to discuss the burdens of the perks from that cash you spent, and respond to my post on the MECHANICS?

    DleatherusmystichazeAnOldFartMendelLinifRateroAshyLarry24

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 166
    she was stating that the mechanics of crafting might be so in depth and time consuming to level up, that she questions whether she would be able to level up an alchemist with those mechanics AND run a county
    Slapshot1188NeutralEvilmystichaze
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560
    she was stating that the mechanics of crafting might be so in depth and time consuming to level up, that she questions whether she would be able to level up an alchemist with those mechanics AND run a county
    Kind of like I said they were so in depth and complex that there is no realistic way they will be implemented.  OK got it.  So now... back to my post summarizing those mechanics.  

    Do you think it is a good thing that it takes literally 7 paragraphs to describe the process to create the simplest crafting item of an iron ingot? 

    Let's play "temporary suspension of disbelief" and assume that they can implement similar processes not just for blacksmithing but for all crafting. Do you really think going to that detail, is going to be a good mechanic if implemented?  Not only the detail, but also do you think it is a good idea to tie PLAYER skill into a process that your CHARACTER is supposed to do?  Is it a good idea that you, the player, will need to learn the right temperatures to smelt iron ingots, the right part of the fire, the right sounds?   Or, in a RPG... should those not be skills that your CHARACTER has developed?  This isn't limited to CoE.  I have had these discussion before related to combat "skills" and the fact that my character is the one that spent 20 years of his life learning to shoot a bow and his success really shouldn't depend on MY ability to hit a targeting reticule.  There isn't necessarily a right or wrong answer to that last one, but it's certainly one that should be asked.

    So.. those are all MECHANICS questions that I'd love to hear your thoughts on.

    LinifGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    I actually think it is an amazing system and would love to spend my time playing with it. For that 95 % of the players that are going to have more time to dedicate to it then the nobility and enjoy crafting in games I think they would feel the same way. Actually, I know they will, the crafters in my group are over the wall with excitement just knowing that it isn't going to be the same old boring crafting system many games have.

    Realistically at this point, I am unsure if I will have the time to put into it or not. That is something that Alpha and Beta testing will reveal to me in time.  If it turns out that I can do both with the job I have, then I will be in my glory. 

    Some of us don't have as much time to dedicate to gaming as others do. For me, it is a seasonal thing. Which results in my time being very limited in the summers that mean my County would be my first priority in my free time. 
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 166
    she was stating that the mechanics of crafting might be so in depth and time consuming to level up, that she questions whether she would be able to level up an alchemist with those mechanics AND run a county
    Kind of like I said they were so in depth and complex that there is no realistic way they will be implemented.  OK got it.  So now... back to my post summarizing those mechanics.  


    nah - huge difference in my opinion in her making a first and one time comment about how the crafting mechanics might effect her gameplay, and you piling on as usual about the same stuff (again some of it i find to be legitimate questions/concerns) in every fucking thread - there's a saying about an old broken record 

    anyhows - back to the questions you asked after graciously bringing the thread back on topic ....


    we don't have to play 'suspension of disbelief' (the jabs just keep on coming don't they lol) to discuss the intended mechanics

    -it's difficult for me to quantify 'good' as it relates to these mechanics at the moment

    if i were to try and explain my ambivalence on this it would be that i would personally generalize players of this type into 3 broad/loose categories: pvp'ers, pve'ers and a hybrid of the two

    as i previously stated, if i were given a choice of only pvping or only pveing, i would always choose pvp

    others i know would do the reverse

    most games allow for a hybrid of the two (i also stated that in many games i have enough alts to get to 'legendary' in the crafts/professions that support my pvp playstyle)

    CoE is going to allow for that i think (the hybrid), but looking at how involved it is, many hybrids will be in the 'jack of all trades, master of none' category

    as for whether i personally think it's a good idea to incorporate player skill into crafting - absolutely!

    same as i think it's a good idea to incorporate player skill into combat and not have tab target/spam your macro loadout that a monkey could be just as effective at

    as you say, no right or wrong answer on this one, just personal opinion

    __________________

    and since you haven't yet started the "CoE crafting is lies because they can't produce this in this depth AND meet the deadline" thread i'll address your earlier comment

    what i am hearing almost unanimously from my community is that pvp'ers are thrilled with this, and crafters are thrilled with this (admittedly they are biased, since they are following the game with hopes it will be successful)

    some have also expressed concerns that it might be too in depth (again, skepticism and criticism is a welcome and healthy thing when not being force fed down your throat with every post)

    i can also understand that many folks who just want to push a button and 20 seconds later be rewarded aren't going to be attracted to this game

    no game out there caters to everybody, and the more specialized/niche you get, you run the potential risk of turning away players (income)



    mystichazeNeutralEvil
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560
    edited April 2018
    I actually think it is an amazing system and would love to spend my time playing with it. For those 95% of the players that are going to have more time to dedicate to it and enjoy crafting in games I think they would feel the same way. Actually, I know they would, the crafters in my group are over the wall with excitement just knowing that it isn't going to be the same old boring crafting system many games have.

    Realistically at this point, I am unsure if I will have the time to put into it or not. That is something that Alpha and Beta testing will reveal to me in time.  If it turns out that I can do both with the job I have, then I will be in my glory. 

    Some of us don't have as much time to dedicate to gaming as others too. For me, it is a seasonal thing. Which results in my time being very limited in the summers that mean my County would be my first priority in my free time. 
    So you think it's a good thing that a PLAYERS skill at things like knowing proper temperatures, locations, strength to strike with a hammer, etc... will determine success in an RPG? And that even though your character is a blacksmith, it is your personal "blacksmithing" skill which determines success?

    It's not necessarily wrong or right either way, but in my RPG I really prefer to have my character's skill influence those things.   

    Also remember that this is a full loot PvP game.  If it takes you all that time to make an iron ingot, and then a bar, and then repeat it until you have enough to make a sword and then spend 5 hours (pure guess) forging a sword... swords are going to be hard to come by and players will be very upset when they are looted.   

    Does this not just incentivize people to use the cash shop and buy as many swords and armor pieces as possible?

    • Equipment (clothing, armor, weapons): < 75 EP per item

    Would not a wise Count like yourself now be greatly incentivized to spend the thousands of EP you have stockpiling things like basic swords and armor?  Now that you know it will literally take hours to craft a single such item? (excluding the gathering of raw mats)

    Then think of other items like SiegeWeapons...
    • Siege Equipment: < 250 EP

    Or buildings: 
    • Furnished buildings: 200 EP+
    Imagine having to build a house brick by brick, after having to find and gather the ingredients to make the brick and mortar and then actually crafting them.  Finding usable trees and cutting them down and milling them into frames and accessories...

    Or just buy a few for 200EP and they come fully furnished.  Heck making a chair alone is probably quite a time consuming job...

    So again.. even using "suspension of disbelief" and assuming what they describe is possible... is it not utterly tarnished by allowing you to buy all these items for cash?  Simply look at the effort to make a sword.. and then look at how cheaply one can be bought for cash...

    Edit to put some context:  You can buy EP for 8 cents per point.   So a fully furnished building will run $16.   Compared to weeks of gathering, crafting and building.   A sword might cost $3 and Plate Armor $6.   

    Honestly, not hyperbole.. to me this screams what someone does to setup an environment to support a thriving cash shop.   Yes I know the usual suspects will vigorously disagree, but if I were going to setup a cash shop I would be sure to also pair it with a time consuming crafting mechanic as described in the diary. So that you COULD make everything in game... IF you are dedicated enough...


    MendelLinifFrodoFraginsRatero

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 166
    remember that EP has to be spent before the game launches (discussion of how backers are pay to win rich elitists covered in an existing thread so no need to digress to that here)

    remember also that items of varying quality will be able to be purchased from the NPC crafters

    additionally remember that a legendary sword isn't some uber piece of equipment that slays everything in its path - it has been stated that the 'legendary' part of it might be the fact that its durability is twice that of a normal sword, or that if it has something a bit more powerful as its trait, you won't know what it is, and would have to complete a series of quests to unlock that, and might well lose your item along the way

    given that they can be looted, my guess is that there is going to be a lot of 'involuntary redistribution' of many of these portable items
    mystichazeNeutralEvil
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560
    remember that EP has to be spent before the game launches (discussion of how backers are pay to win rich elitists covered in an existing thread so no need to digress to that here)

    remember also that items of varying quality will be able to be purchased from the NPC crafters

    additionally remember that a legendary sword isn't some uber piece of equipment that slays everything in its path - it has been stated that the 'legendary' part of it might be the fact that its durability is twice that of a normal sword, or that if it has something a bit more powerful as its trait, you won't know what it is, and would have to complete a series of quests to unlock that, and might well lose your item along the way

    given that they can be looted, my guess is that there is going to be a lot of 'involuntary redistribution' of many of these portable items
    Who talking "legendary" ?  The process described was to craft just a normal joe-schmo sword.  To make a "legendary one" will probably take a year of your life...


    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • brent022brent022 Member UncommonPosts: 1
    I don't know if it will all work out but I do like the idea that player skill would be brought into crafting.  As someone that enjoys the crafting part of games I have often found it annoying that in most mmos even if you wanted to focus on crafting their is rarely a market beyond yourself because everyones character can make nearly everything.

    Also as someone who isn't the best at player skill in combat (I like tab targeting and dislike people bunny hoping around while swinging a sword) I think it's only fair that if a player supports action combat/personal skill in combat that they would so for crafting to keep the value of the craft high.

    Looking forward to hen a crafter tells a PVP player complaining about prices to "Get Gud"
    Slapshot1188DleatherusmystichazeAnOldFartNeutralEvil
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560
    brent022 said:
    I don't know if it will all work out but I do like the idea that player skill would be brought into crafting.  As someone that enjoys the crafting part of games I have often found it annoying that in most mmos even if you wanted to focus on crafting their is rarely a market beyond yourself because everyones character can make nearly everything.

    Also as someone who isn't the best at player skill in combat (I like tab targeting and dislike people bunny hoping around while swinging a sword) I think it's only fair that if a player supports action combat/personal skill in combat that they would so for crafting to keep the value of the craft high.

    Looking forward to hen a crafter tells a PVP player complaining about prices to "Get Gud"
    Welcome aboard brent022!

    Yes I do not think there is a right or wrong answer (as I said). Just personal preferences.  I have always argued that my CHARACTER is the subject matter expert in an RPG and not me.  Just like I don't personally need to know all the incantations or how to draw sigils to have my mage cast spells in a game...  

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 166
    edited April 2018
    Who talking "legendary" ?  The process described was to craft just a normal joe-schmo sword.  To make a "legendary one" will probably take a year of your life...


    i mention 'legendary' because as i stated in my post, gear of varying quality will be able to be purchased from NPC crafters and shops

    the involved process was discussed, i don't recall seeing where it said or implied anything even remotely as to how long that would take, let alone break it down into how long for the various qualities for the various items

    only thing i think we could agree on in that regard is that it would take more knowledge, technique and skill than crafting an ordinary one

    and in my opinion that's as it should be

    personally i like the fact that not everybody should be able to make one

    then again i personally like the fact that not everybody gets to find an egg in an easter egg hunt

    or that in a race not everybody gets to cross the finish line at the same time 

    or that everybody can be everything within a week in game and then stand about pissing and moaning that they have achieved everything already and there's nothing to do for the next year or two until a new expansion comes out, and wondering whether to run the same raid over and over and over until you puke hoping that the +5 gloves of Bored to Stupidity finally drop
    mystichazeNeutralEvil
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    I actually think it is an amazing system and would love to spend my time playing with it. For those 95% of the players that are going to have more time to dedicate to it and enjoy crafting in games I think they would feel the same way. Actually, I know they would, the crafters in my group are over the wall with excitement just knowing that it isn't going to be the same old boring crafting system many games have.

    Realistically at this point, I am unsure if I will have the time to put into it or not. That is something that Alpha and Beta testing will reveal to me in time.  If it turns out that I can do both with the job I have, then I will be in my glory. 

    Some of us don't have as much time to dedicate to gaming as others too. For me, it is a seasonal thing. Which results in my time being very limited in the summers that mean my County would be my first priority in my free time. 
    So you think it's a good thing that a PLAYERS skill at things like knowing proper temperatures, locations, strength to strike with a hammer, etc... will determine success in an RPG? And that even though your character is a blacksmith, it is your personal "blacksmithing" skill which determines success?

    It's not necessarily wrong or right either way, but in my RPG I really prefer to have my character's skill influence those things.   

    Also remember that this is a full loot PvP game.  If it takes you all that time to make an iron ingot, and then a bar, and then repeat it until you have enough to make a sword and then spend 5 hours (pure guess) forging a sword... swords are going to be hard to come by and players will be very upset when they are looted.   

    Does this not just incentivize people to use the cash shop and buy as many swords and armor pieces as possible?

    • Equipment (clothing, armor, weapons): < 75 EP per item

    Would not a wise Count like yourself now be greatly incentivized to spend the thousands of EP you have stockpiling things like basic swords and armor?  Now that you know it will literally take hours to craft a single such item? (excluding the gathering of raw mats)

    Then think of other items like SiegeWeapons...
    • Siege Equipment: < 250 EP

    Or buildings: 
    • Furnished buildings: 200 EP+
    Imagine having to build a house brick by brick, after having to find and gather the ingredients to make the brick and mortar and then actually crafting them.  Finding usable trees and cutting them down and milling them into frames and accessories...

    Or just buy a few for 200EP and they come fully furnished.  Heck making a chair alone is probably quite a time consuming job...

    So again.. even using "suspension of disbelief" and assuming what they describe is possible... is it not utterly tarnished by allowing you to buy all these items for cash?  Simply look at the effort to make a sword.. and then look at how cheaply one can be bought for cash...
    In answer to your question, yes I think it is awesome that player skill plays are part of our gameplay. It is one of the things I loved most about CoE when looking into it. I find it much more challenging then the same old point, click and everyone is a hero Themepark Model. In addition, it not completely player skill it is a combination of both player skill and character skill.

    As I had stated before in your lootbox thread just having the skill in CoE doesn't make you a success this is not a new concept to CoE and has always been the intended gameplay. Player skill in crafting and PVPing is something they have talked about since before Kickstarter. 

    No, this is not a PVP game, it is an Immersive storytelling and roleplay game. Just because it has open world PVP has never made it a PVP game. If you read what you have written it is going to answer many of the arguments you have had about open PVP and RNG loot boxes. Building not only a character but a dynasty is going to take some strategic planning in addition to time. 

    Also as I stated earlier it is not the intention for everyone to be forging their own equipment. Instead, you are expected to be purchasing your equipment from other players. I noticed within many of your posts you just can't seem to grasp the idea that CoE can't really be played as a single player game like some other MMOs can. You can't just log in and hit max level in a couple of days then farm for epic gear.

    Actually, for me as a count, I am more focused on providing those within my County the tools they need to explore their own interests which in turn will not only benefit me but everyone else in the County as well. So instead of buying -myself- a bunch of weapons and armor. I will instead purchase a blacksmith shop for someone else to use or purchase from the County and produce the weapons needed in my settlement. I might even purchase some roads so that the crafters and gathers from different settlements will be able to more easily and transport their goods for trade. 

    The more successful the players are within my County, the more successful I am going to be. If I only think about myself during exposition and when buying EP items I am not going to get very far as a Countess, nor is my County going to be very productive or able to pay its taxes. Which brings us to your pay to win theory, perhaps now, but I doubt it, you can see what we mean by pay to build. And how everything purchased is meant to be a benefit to all those who enter that region after launch. 

    Things aren't meant to move quickly in CoE, and it is designed that you need other players to advance. Right down to the apprenticeship programs and having to learn from more experienced crafters. 


    Slapshot1188AnOldFart
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560
    I actually think it is an amazing system and would love to spend my time playing with it. For those 95% of the players that are going to have more time to dedicate to it and enjoy crafting in games I think they would feel the same way. Actually, I know they would, the crafters in my group are over the wall with excitement just knowing that it isn't going to be the same old boring crafting system many games have.

    Realistically at this point, I am unsure if I will have the time to put into it or not. That is something that Alpha and Beta testing will reveal to me in time.  If it turns out that I can do both with the job I have, then I will be in my glory. 

    Some of us don't have as much time to dedicate to gaming as others too. For me, it is a seasonal thing. Which results in my time being very limited in the summers that mean my County would be my first priority in my free time. 
    So you think it's a good thing that a PLAYERS skill at things like knowing proper temperatures, locations, strength to strike with a hammer, etc... will determine success in an RPG? And that even though your character is a blacksmith, it is your personal "blacksmithing" skill which determines success?

    It's not necessarily wrong or right either way, but in my RPG I really prefer to have my character's skill influence those things.   

    Also remember that this is a full loot PvP game.  If it takes you all that time to make an iron ingot, and then a bar, and then repeat it until you have enough to make a sword and then spend 5 hours (pure guess) forging a sword... swords are going to be hard to come by and players will be very upset when they are looted.   

    Does this not just incentivize people to use the cash shop and buy as many swords and armor pieces as possible?

    • Equipment (clothing, armor, weapons): < 75 EP per item

    Would not a wise Count like yourself now be greatly incentivized to spend the thousands of EP you have stockpiling things like basic swords and armor?  Now that you know it will literally take hours to craft a single such item? (excluding the gathering of raw mats)

    Then think of other items like SiegeWeapons...
    • Siege Equipment: < 250 EP

    Or buildings: 
    • Furnished buildings: 200 EP+
    Imagine having to build a house brick by brick, after having to find and gather the ingredients to make the brick and mortar and then actually crafting them.  Finding usable trees and cutting them down and milling them into frames and accessories...

    Or just buy a few for 200EP and they come fully furnished.  Heck making a chair alone is probably quite a time consuming job...

    So again.. even using "suspension of disbelief" and assuming what they describe is possible... is it not utterly tarnished by allowing you to buy all these items for cash?  Simply look at the effort to make a sword.. and then look at how cheaply one can be bought for cash...
    In answer to your question, yes I think it is awesome that player skill plays are part of our gameplay. It is one of the things I loved most about CoE when looking into it. I find it much more challenging then the same old point, click and everyone is a hero Themepark Model. In addition, it not completely player skill it is a combination of both player skill and character skill.

    As I had stated before in your lootbox thread just having the skill in CoE doesn't make you a success this is not a new concept to CoE and has always been the intended gameplay. Player skill in crafting and PVPing is something they have talked about since before Kickstarter. 

    No, this is not a PVP game, it is an Immersive storytelling and roleplay game. Just because it has open world PVP has never made it a PVP game. If you read what you have written it is going to answer many of the arguments you have had about open PVP and RNG loot boxes. Building not only a character but a dynasty is going to take some strategic planning in addition to time. 

    Also as I stated earlier it is not the intention for everyone to be forging their own equipment. Instead, you are expected to be purchasing your equipment from other players. I noticed within many of your posts you just can't seem to grasp the idea that CoE can't really be played as a single player game like some other MMOs can. You can't just log in and hit max level in a couple of days then farm for epic gear.

    Actually, for me as a count, I am more focused on providing those within my County the tools they need to explore their own interests which in turn will not only benefit but everyone else in the County as well. So instead of buying -myself- a bunch of weapons and armor. I will instead purchase a blacksmith shop for someone else to use or purchase from the County and produce the weapons needed in my settlement. I might even purchase some roads so that the crafters and gathers from different settlements will be able to more easily transport their goods for trade. 

    The more successful the players are within my County, the more successful I am going to be. If I only think about myself during exposition and when buying EP items I am not going to get very far as a Countess, nor is my County going to be very productive or able to pay its taxes. Which brings us to your pay to win theory, perhaps now, but I doubt it, you can see what we mean by pay to build. And how everything purchased is meant to be a benefit to all those who enter that region afterward. 

    Things aren't meant to move quickly in CoE, and it is designed that you need other players to advance. Right down to the apprenticeship programs and having to learn from more experienced crafters. 


    See this is the fundamental problem and it goes back to my first post and yes you will complain about it again.. but because there is nothing tangible but a description of what they want to do it is hard to have a reasonable conversation.  It's like reading a 1 page summary of a movie that someone wants to make and saying we should discuss it.  I think that the vast majority of what you posted will not come true.  You view that as proof that I "just can't seem to grasp the idea that CoE can't really be played as a single player game like some other MMOs can. You can't just log in and hit max level in a couple of days then farm for epic gear."  I absolutely think that if making a simple sword becomes overly intricate that there is a massive incentive to simply spend a few bucks and stock up on them.  You feel I am overly negative and fail to understand how different CoE is.  I feel that you are simply naive.   Unfortunately... there is nothing TANGIBLE that we can use to sway the other at this point.  You have faith and I have Harbinger experience.

    Someday we will see who is right.

    MendelLinifKyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,383
    No matter what  i think of the past,i still look at everything with fairness but also i know a lot about game design so i get a feel for something right away.
    I am writing this BEFORE reading beyond the first paragraph.I say this because right away i was skeptical,i felt this was likely cutting corners but then i thought hmm maybe not,i'll read more.

    I'll tell you what think or what my gut tells me after i finish reading,my brain is a little tired right now so idk lol.
    mystichazeAnOldFart

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 166
    edited April 2018

    Honestly, not hyperbole.. to me this screams what someone does to setup an environment to support a thriving cash shop.   Yes I know the usual suspects will vigorously disagree, but if I were going to setup a cash shop I would be sure to also pair it with a time consuming crafting mechanic as described in the diary. So that you COULD make everything in game... IF you are dedicated enough...


    hrmmm - this point i don't agree with, guess that makes me one of the usual suspects

    in fact i would go so far as to think it's the opposite

    setting up/maintaining the existing one after launch with such an intended involved crafting system in place i agree would drive folks to use the cash shop

    so then the question becomes "which is more likely: (A) this is all a con job and a cash grab and they are setting the stage for a cash grab shop for even ordinary items like swords, or (B) they are working on their long stated goals of having a very different and involved crafting and skill raising system that the players will find interesting and engaging

    now i know many of the "other" usual suspects are going to pick (A) :P
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited April 2018
    Indeed someday we will see what the game turns out to be, but for now, all we have are the intended mechanics of what CoE is trying to be and that is what I form my opinions on. 

    I mean clearly Slapshot it is not news that there isn't a game yet. 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560

    Honestly, not hyperbole.. to me this screams what someone does to setup an environment to support a thriving cash shop.   Yes I know the usual suspects will vigorously disagree, but if I were going to setup a cash shop I would be sure to also pair it with a time consuming crafting mechanic as described in the diary. So that you COULD make everything in game... IF you are dedicated enough...


    hrmmm - this point i don't agree with, guess that makes me one of the usual suspects

    in fact i would go so far as to think it's the opposite

    setting up/maintaining the existing one after launch with such an intended involved crafting system in place i agree would drive folks to use the cash shop

    so then the question becomes "which is more likely: (A) this is all a con job and a cash grab and they are setting the stage for a cash grab shop for even ordinary items like swords, or (B) they are working on their long stated goals of having a very different and involved crafting and skill raising system that the players will find interesting and engaging

    now i know many of the "other" usual suspects are going to pick (A) :P
    Fair enough, but please do keep in mind that he has already opened the door to possibly having cosmetic items in the shop after launch as long as they can be crafted in game. And of course you can buy and spend EP all through the actual Exposition.. so that's at least 3 months of no wipe playing where you can buy items as needed or as you see their usefulness/benefits post launch...



    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,383
    Hmmm very long read ,,perhaps too long.

    I shouldn't complain,i always ask for a lot of depth in games but this seems how you say it ,might not go over well.Initially yes people like to feel they are racing,getting ahead of the next guy,i don't like that type of design but it is what it is.

    What this system is going to do is create far too many menu clicks,i have heard MOST people complain of too many menu clicks for a long time now,so i doubt that sentiment has changed over the last few weeks lol.

    My personal gut feeling,the minigame was a better idea ...haha.FFXi had a unique take it on as well,not called crafting,i actually forget what their second rendition of crafting was called but it was sort of similar to this in a way.

    I don't want to put a damper on this new idea,i mean maybe it turns out ok,it sounds like they put some thought and work into this so it kinda hurts when someone like me just says ...go for the minigame instead lol.
    DleatherusAnOldFartNeutralEvilmystichazeKyleran

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,383
    Haha.. Sometime Slapshot you remind me of a bitter ex. No matter what SBS does, you always attempt to twist it into your negative outlook about them. Look, we get it, the game isn't for you and that is ok, but some of us are very excited about what SBS is trying to do. 

    Will this type of crafting be for everyone? No, as Dleatherus said it isn't something he wants to do in-game. But just as in real life we all have different interests and a more realistic crafting system is exciting for the demographic that enjoys this type of gameplay. For those that don't enjoy the system I am sure there will be plenty other things for them to do in the Game.  And well if they don't like the game at all well there are plenty of other Thempark, and Sandbox games out there to choose from. 
    You asked to focus on the mechanics.  I literally described the mechanics to forge an iron Ingot as depicted in the dev diary.  Now you ignore it to yet again attack Slapshot and deflect.   Do you want to discuss the mechanics or not?   Which part of the post you WTFed is wrong?  Which mechanic did I improperly describe?   The guy literally used 7 paragraphs to describe the process of making an Iron Ingot.  It’s possible I mixed up a step. Maybe the tongs were before the hammer...


    7 paragraphs ..lol,i think was more like reading a novel haha.

    This is why video is your friend,just make a video and explain while we watch  the entire process being done.You can edit the video to go from the harvesting field to the stalls and show us all these menu clicks and processes.

    The one thing not mentioned is HOW to learn these techniques and processes,something is amiss in that part of the discussion.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,560
    edited April 2018
    Wizardry said:
    Haha.. Sometime Slapshot you remind me of a bitter ex. No matter what SBS does, you always attempt to twist it into your negative outlook about them. Look, we get it, the game isn't for you and that is ok, but some of us are very excited about what SBS is trying to do. 

    Will this type of crafting be for everyone? No, as Dleatherus said it isn't something he wants to do in-game. But just as in real life we all have different interests and a more realistic crafting system is exciting for the demographic that enjoys this type of gameplay. For those that don't enjoy the system I am sure there will be plenty other things for them to do in the Game.  And well if they don't like the game at all well there are plenty of other Thempark, and Sandbox games out there to choose from. 
    You asked to focus on the mechanics.  I literally described the mechanics to forge an iron Ingot as depicted in the dev diary.  Now you ignore it to yet again attack Slapshot and deflect.   Do you want to discuss the mechanics or not?   Which part of the post you WTFed is wrong?  Which mechanic did I improperly describe?   The guy literally used 7 paragraphs to describe the process of making an Iron Ingot.  It’s possible I mixed up a step. Maybe the tongs were before the hammer...


    7 paragraphs ..lol,i think was more like reading a novel haha.

    This is why video is your friend,just make a video and explain while we watch  the entire process being done.You can edit the video to go from the harvesting field to the stalls and show us all these menu clicks and processes.

    The one thing not mentioned is HOW to learn these techniques and processes,something is amiss in that part of the discussion.
    Much of it is just trial and error...

    Also.. there is no video because it doesn't exist.  It's just a theoretical paper on what he wants to do... which was kind of my point.   It would be MUCH easier to have a rational discussion about how crafting is different in CoE when you can actually see it in action. 

    Someday we will see it.   Someday...

    NeutralEvilLinif

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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