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Do Soulpacks = Lootboxes?

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  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,379
    What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

    I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

    Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.
    How exactly does SBS adding +skill potions in a cash shop make the RNG soul box situation any better? 

    Idk about you, but for me, there is an inverse correlation between how P2W a game is and how much I want to play it. 
    Fair point.  I guess I’m just saying that if you are going the lootboxes rout with RNG soul packs why stop there?  IMHO that is FAR more unbalancing (literally skipping years of grind) than my potion example which would only last an hour.  

    Its kind of like eating a 1/2 pound cheeseburger, fries and an ice cream dessert but pairing it with a diet soda...

    Same thing with the supposed publisher story.  If (which I doubt) they really had a publisher interested and they wanted to talk about lootboxes why would SBS turn them down when they already announced “soul packs” that allow them a random chance at souls which are, to quote Caspien: inherently more powerful?

    By the way, I am not saying potions are the answer... just a random example.  The point is more that if you are going the lootbox route, jump all the way in.

    Or, if you really don’t want lootboxes then takeout the silly soul packs. 
    I agree -- it would be nice if the game was completely one or the other. Either non-P2W so everyone started on an equal playing field, or over-the-top P2W so we could write the game off completely.

    What they're doing, toeing the line between the two, is perhaps the smartest approach (although, as a player, I hate it as much as you do).

    If they launched the KS campaign w/ no P2W elements, they probably would've had full community support, but would the extra backers have been enough to fund the game w/o the perks? If you got the same in-game benefits for the $59 package, as the $10,000 package, there would be less incentive for most people to spend the extra money. Also, since there would be no P2W advantages for buying the game early, everyone could simply wait to buy it at launch.

    On the other hand, if they launched the KS campaign w/ over-the-top P2W elements (such as keeping the cash shop going forever), community support would've been much less. Most people would've written the game off as a cash grab from the start.

    By putting enough P2W elements to entice people to back early, but not enough P2W elements to anger the community completely, they were able to have the best of both worlds. Personally, I would not have backed the game had they said they planned to keep the IP store in after launch. A temporary cash shop, although not ideal, is better than one that lasts forever.
    AnOldFartKyleran
    --------------------------------------------
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,379
    What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

    I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

    Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.
    How exactly does SBS adding +skill potions in a cash shop make the RNG soul box situation any better? 

    Idk about you, but for me, there is an inverse correlation between how P2W a game is and how much I want to play it. 

    Same thing with the supposed publisher story.  If (which I doubt) they really had a publisher interested and they wanted to talk about lootboxes why would SBS turn them down when they already announced “soul packs” that allow them a random chance at souls which are, to quote Caspien: inherently more powerful?

    Regarding the publisher story -- I agree, I don't think we're getting the whole truth either.

    The lootbox thing is a rather convenient lie to tell the community.

    Bottom line, they couldn't persuade a publisher to invest based on what they have so far. Rather than saying that, they played it off as if they stuck it to the man and are the heroes of the story.

    There are plenty of other MMO's in development right now that have no plans for lootboxes and received private funding.
    Kyleran
    --------------------------------------------
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,901
    Hmmm they did complain that they couldn't find a publisher because they lacked loot boxes. 

    Guess this is the first step.
    Slapshot1188

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,530
    anemo said:
    Hmmm they did complain that they couldn't find a publisher because they lacked loot boxes. 

    Guess this is the first step.
    From very early on they talked about soul packs.  This isn’t a result of the publisher search as far as I can tell.
    Mendel

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,620
    It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Is it a variable reward container sold for money?

    MadFrenchieSlapshot1188Kyleran
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004
    edited March 2018
    Torval said:
    It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Is it a variable reward container sold for money?

    But are they PFA / P2W? Caspian said no because the outcome is variable and the player has no control on what they receive.

    Well, outside being able to keep buying and opening more boxes I suppose.

    I'm not sure if advanced skill training speed is that much of an advantage though.

    I'm never really in a race with others as there's always players who can outprogess me.

    Even if they do, for a time my avatar would have an edge if they are on a different timeline than me since they'll die off with no carry over and have to start over while I might still be at a peak point in the cycle.

    EVE taught me its possible to build a skill based game which largely neutralizes training advantages, which is why I'm very interested in learning how it will work here.

    AnOldFart

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,620
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Is it a variable reward container sold for money?

    But are they PFA / P2W? Caspian said no because the outcome is variable and the player has no control on what they receive.

    Well, outside being able to keep buying and opening more boxes I suppose.

    I'm not sure if advanced skill training speed is that much of an advantage though.

    I'm never really in a race with others as there's always players who can outprogess me.

    Even if they do, for a time my avatar would have an edge if they are on a different timeline than me since they'll die off with no carry over and have to start over while I might still be at a peak point in the cycle.

    EVE taught me its possible to build a skill based game which largely neutralizes training advantages, which is why I'm very interested in learning how it will work here.

    P2W wasn't part of the OPs primary question, just whether they're loot boxes. The answer to that seems clear. He went on about P2W and advantage, but those were actually rhetorical couched as honest questions. They were catalysts for explaining why he thinks the lootcrates are bad, and is asking more if you agree with him or not.

    The issue of P2W is really complicated. Not only is it subjective, but it's very premise makes subjective moral assignations on what is okay.

    Brian Fargo tweeted a few days ago asking why Battlefront 2's lootcrates were worse than any others. Most people missed the point and tried to explain why EA was wrong, but no one really answered his question.

    If you're playing demographic are all killer achievers then the P2W question is more practical given the context. If the playing demographic encompasses all playstyles equally then the P2W issue is a red herring studios use for PR, just like they do when advertising "no loot crates in our game". Everyone stops asking questions at that point like, "If there are no loot crates how else are they trying to squeeze more money out of me?" Because if it's not pay to win then it must be okay for them to charge and do whatever else they want. That's sort of short-sighted thinking is what drove us to the destination we're at now with F2P, lootcrates, and P2W.
    Panther2103Kyleran
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,530
    Well what do your mean by no carryover?  The skill ramp on their next life will be even higher. It goes up for each life.  Caspien himself used the term: more powerful. He also compared the lives to levels. That’s the progression in the game.

    Also, Unique souls need more descriptions.  

    But even more basic to me is the idea that these ARE lootboxes.  So what’s the difference between selling soul packs that permanently raise your skill ramp by 10% and packs that have potions which raise it by 10% for an hour?

    As stated before the numbers are made up but I just don’t see the difference other than to me the permanent soul pack edge is far more impactful to game play.


    Torval

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Is it a variable reward container sold for money?

    But are they PFA / P2W? Caspian said no because the outcome is variable and the player has no control on what they receive.

    Well, outside being able to keep buying and opening more boxes I suppose.

    I'm not sure if advanced skill training speed is that much of an advantage though.

    I'm never really in a race with others as there's always players who can outprogess me.

    Even if they do, for a time my avatar would have an edge if they are on a different timeline than me since they'll die off with no carry over and have to start over while I might still be at a peak point in the cycle.

    EVE taught me its possible to build a skill based game which largely neutralizes training advantages, which is why I'm very interested in learning how it will work here.

    P2W wasn't part of the OPs primary question, just whether they're loot boxes. The answer to that seems clear. He went on about P2W and advantage, but those were actually rhetorical couched as honest questions. They were catalysts for explaining why he thinks the lootcrates are bad, and is asking more if you agree with him or not.

    The issue of P2W is really complicated. Not only is it subjective, but it's very premise makes subjective moral assignations on what is okay.

    Brian Fargo tweeted a few days ago asking why Battlefront 2's lootcrates were worse than any others. Most people missed the point and tried to explain why EA was wrong, but no one really answered his question.

    If you're playing demographic are all killer achievers then the P2W question is more practical given the context. If the playing demographic encompasses all playstyles equally then the P2W issue is a red herring studios use for PR, just like they do when advertising "no loot crates in our game". Everyone stops asking questions at that point like, "If there are no loot crates how else are they trying to squeeze more money out of me?" Because if it's not pay to win then it must be okay for them to charge and do whatever else they want. That's sort of short-sighted thinking is what drove us to the destination we're at now with F2P, lootcrates, and P2W.
    Good post, and I believe devs need to find the best payment model which ensures a games survivability while appealing to their target market.

    What that could or should be is a discussion outside of this thread, other than in the context of if already selling a form of RNG  lootbox, should they expand the concept post launch and if so, how much? (Cosmetics,  resources, items of power, conveniences etc)

    Or perhaps the answer you believe is to draw the line here, go no further, and seek otherways to monetize the game?
    Torval

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004
    What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

    I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

    Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.
    Exactly the point and hopefully where we can keep this thread focused on.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,530
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Is it a variable reward container sold for money?

    But are they PFA / P2W? Caspian said no because the outcome is variable and the player has no control on what they receive.

    Well, outside being able to keep buying and opening more boxes I suppose.

    I'm not sure if advanced skill training speed is that much of an advantage though.

    I'm never really in a race with others as there's always players who can outprogess me.

    Even if they do, for a time my avatar would have an edge if they are on a different timeline than me since they'll die off with no carry over and have to start over while I might still be at a peak point in the cycle.

    EVE taught me its possible to build a skill based game which largely neutralizes training advantages, which is why I'm very interested in learning how it will work here.

    P2W wasn't part of the OPs primary question, just whether they're loot boxes. The answer to that seems clear. He went on about P2W and advantage, but those were actually rhetorical couched as honest questions. They were catalysts for explaining why he thinks the lootcrates are bad, and is asking more if you agree with him or not.

    The issue of P2W is really complicated. Not only is it subjective, but it's very premise makes subjective moral assignations on what is okay.

    Brian Fargo tweeted a few days ago asking why Battlefront 2's lootcrates were worse than any others. Most people missed the point and tried to explain why EA was wrong, but no one really answered his question.

    If you're playing demographic are all killer achievers then the P2W question is more practical given the context. If the playing demographic encompasses all playstyles equally then the P2W issue is a red herring studios use for PR, just like they do when advertising "no loot crates in our game". Everyone stops asking questions at that point like, "If there are no loot crates how else are they trying to squeeze more money out of me?" Because if it's not pay to win then it must be okay for them to charge and do whatever else they want. That's sort of short-sighted thinking is what drove us to the destination we're at now with F2P, lootcrates, and P2W.
    Close... maybe I worded it wrong and I should go look... but the heart of my point isn’t if lootboxes are P2W or Pay for Advantage.  It’s to try and contrast the SoulPacks with his inference  that he turned down publishers because they wanted him to include lootboxes.

    Its not even if they are good or bad... it’s the view that Caspien is using them as a boogie man but then turning around and using SoulPacks which I think we both see are in fact lootboxes.


    Torval

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,620
    That does make it clearer. The point I took away is that this game "didn't have lootcrates" which it actually does and that studios and publishers are still playing with semantics to try and achieve the same revenue goals.

    I do get your point and I think those are good questions to ask. It highights what a farce the PR machine has taken this issue. I think you pretty clearly showed how that is framed here with this game. It also extends well beyond this game too imo.
    Slapshot1188
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,538
    edited March 2018
    Maybe the publishers and studios took the same stance that Slapstick is taking (which is also how I feel about the matter, too).  IE, "If you're going to lootbox with these "soul packs", why not just go all in full-monty with lootboxes, etc?"

    I wouldn't be surprised if Caspien's reply was basically "Soul packs aren't loot boxes!  Good bye!"
    Kyleran
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    The thing about souls and having advanced souls as possibilities at the beginning is bad because people can get ahead in ways other characters have no chance at competing with. 

    When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete. 

    Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    centkin said:
    The thing about souls and having advanced souls as possibilities at the beginning is bad because people can get ahead in ways other characters have no chance at competing with. 

    When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete. 

    Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.
    There is nothing that has changed regarding the soul pack since well before Kickstarter, except the fact that talents are no longer connected to the soul. It has always been known that within soul packs there is a chance you might obtain an old Soul. That includes the soul packs that are sold with the purchase of the game.  "fair but inequitable"

    What seems to be getting over exaggerated here is that yes, an old soul is more powerful but only in the skill that it has trained for in past lives.  Not in everything!

    For example, I acquire a soul that trained in blacksmithing for its last three lives. Great, if I want to be a blacksmith. This means my pc will train faster in blacksmithing. Perhaps giving me the opportunity to become a Master sooner.

    However, if I want to be an alchemist then the fact that I am using this particular old soul is not really going to be a benefit to me.  And I am going to have to train just as though I were starting with a young soul.

    In Elyria skill lines are more specialized in comparison to other MMOs, no one Character can be proficient in multiple skills. And in order to become Legionary at a craft, you will need to focus on that particular skill for several lifetimes. 

    We also don't know the cost of soul packs. It the price going to be worth purchasing multiple packs in an attempt to find that old soul with the skill tree you are looking for?

    As for as I am concerned trying to compare Lootboxes to Soul Packs it very premature and just another lame attempt to discredit SBS. 
    AnOldFart
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,530
    centkin said:
    The thing about souls and having advanced souls as possibilities at the beginning is bad because people can get ahead in ways other characters have no chance at competing with. 

    When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete. 

    Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.


    What seems to be getting over exaggerated here is that yes, an old soul is more powerful but only in the skill that it has trained for in past lives.  Not in everything!

    For example, I acquire a soul that trained in blacksmithing for its last three lives. Great, if I want to be a blacksmith. This means my pc will train faster in blacksmithing. Perhaps giving me the opportunity to become a Master sooner.

    However, if I want to be an alchemist then the fact that I am using this particular old soul is not really going to be a benefit to me.  And I am going to have to train just as though I were starting with a young soul.

     
    What you have described... perhaps unwittingly... is EXACTLY how a RNG lootbox functions :)

    So I thank you for helping drive home the point. I was hoping you would weigh in at some point.

     ;) 

    Kyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited March 2018
    centkin said:
    The thing about souls and having advanced souls as possibilities at the beginning is bad because people can get ahead in ways other characters have no chance at competing with. 

    When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete. 

    Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.
    There is nothing that has changed regarding the soul pack since well before Kickstarter, except the fact that talents are no longer connected to the soul. It has always been known that within soul packs there is a chance you might obtain an old Soul. That includes the soul packs that are sold with the purchase of the game.  "fair but inequitable"

    What seems to be getting over exaggerated here is that yes, an old soul is more powerful but only in the skill that it has trained for in past lives.  Not in everything!

    For example, I acquire a soul that trained in blacksmithing for its last three lives. Great, if I want to be a blacksmith. This means my pc will train faster in blacksmithing. Perhaps giving me the opportunity to become a Master sooner.

    However, if I want to be an alchemist then the fact that I am using this particular old soul is not really going to be a benefit to me.  And I am going to have to train just as though I were starting with a young soul.

    In Elyria skill lines are more specialized in comparison to other MMOs, no one Character can be proficient in multiple skills. And in order to become Legionary at a craft, you will need to focus on that particular skill for several lifetimes. 

    We also don't know the cost of soul packs. It the price going to be worth purchasing multiple packs in an attempt to find that old soul with the skill tree you are looking for?

    As for as I am concerned trying to compare Lootboxes to Soul Packs it very premature and just another lame attempt to discredit SBS. 
    I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:

    Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system.  It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase.  But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.

    If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.

    Either way, lootbox.  One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.
    KyleranmystichazeAnOldFart

    image
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited March 2018

    MadFrenchie said:

    I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:

    Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system.  It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase.  But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.

    If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.

    Either way, lootbox.  One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.

    I don't disagree. However, as I stated in my post, I think it is very premature to determine either way whether or not Soul Packs would be equal to Lootboxes. Or if they will benefit/harm the game experience as you showed in your examples. As long as it is not detrimental to the structure of the game I have no issue with it if they are used that way. Just means more revenue for SBS. 

    Will players buy multiple packs trying to find that one perfect soul? Sure they might. Just like they might buy multiple souls and sparks in hope to create a character with the right birthday, trying to get and trigger an epic Talent. Will they succeed? Who knows. Would the cost be substantial? We don't know that either but I imagine it would be.

    Players will always search for a way to abuse the system trying to get the upper hand in any game and we still have to go through Alpha, Beta and maybe even launch to expose any detrimental exploits that might not have been considered throughout development.

    The question is did SBS create soul packs as a substitute for Lootboxes, meanwhile trying to pull the wool over our eyes? I don't believe they did. Soul packs have been around since way before Kickstarter and you get one with the purchase of every game. In addition, SBS has always stated that the game is fair but inequitable. Players don't and never will start out on an equal footing or be subject to the same game experience in Elyria, by design. Soul packs are just another aspect of that analogy.

    My opinion is, if that is something a player isn't comfortable with, then they probably should find a game that is more suited to their play style. Where everyone starts out equal. 

    Hell, even the backers who are starting out as Kings, will not be starting out equal to one another. 

    Post edited by mystichaze on
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited March 2018

    MadFrenchie said:

    I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:

    Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system.  It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase.  But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.

    If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.

    Either way, lootbox.  One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.

    I don't disagree. However, as I stated in my post, I think it is very premature to determine either way whether or not Soul Packs would be equal to Lootboxes. Or if they will benefit/harm the game experience as you showed in your examples. As long as it is not detrimental to the structure of the game I have no issue with it if they are used that way. Just means more revenue for SBS. 

    Will players buy multiple packs trying to find that one perfect soul? Sure they might. Just like they might buy multiple souls and sparks in hope to create a character with the right birthday, trying to get and trigger an epic Talent. Will they succeed? Who knows. Would the cost be substantial? We don't know that either but I imagine it would be.

    Players will always search for a way to abuse the system trying to get the upper hand in any game and we still have to go through Alpha, Beta and maybe even launch to expose any detrimental exploits that might not have been considered throughout development.

    The question is did SBS create soul packs as a substitute for Lootboxes, meanwhile trying to pull the wool over our eyes? I don't believe they did. Soul packs have been around since way before Kickstarter and you get one with the purchase of every game. In addition, SBS has always stated that the game is fair but inequitable. Players don't and never will start out on an equal footing or be subject to the same game experience in Elyria, by design. Soul packs are just another aspect of that analogy.

    My opinion is, if that is something a player isn't comfortable with, then they probably should find a game that is more suited to their play style. Where everyone starts out equal. 

    Hell, even the backers who are starting out as Kings, will not be starting out equal to one another. 

    I'm interested in seeing how they eventually do implement it, it's a fine line when you're talking to gamers about RNG purchases.

    Implemented delicately, it would certainly be a unique feature in the genre.
    mystichazeAnOldFart

    image
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,808
    Rhoklaw said:
    I remember playing MMO's for the enjoyment of the journey to end game. Now it seems everyone want's to sell a fast track to the end to bypass the so called "grind" aka journey. I still compare this philosophy of gamer mentality to that of a person who reads the last chapter of a book or pays full price for a movie only to watch the last 10-15 minutes.
    The problem is everyone wants to BUY the fast track.. you can't sell something unless you have people who wanted to buy it to start with.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,530

    MadFrenchie said:

    I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:

    Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system.  It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase.  But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.

    If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.

    Either way, lootbox.  One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.

    I don't disagree. However, as I stated in my post, I think it is very premature to determine either way whether or not Soul Packs would be equal to Lootboxes.  

    Perhaps you can help us by describing why you believe these are NOT lootboxes.  Do not confuse that question with whether it’s contents are P2W or Pay for Advantage.  Those are separate questions.  A lootbox is a way of selling random items.  You buy in the hopes that you get one you really want.

    Also, as far as price, Caspien said each pack would be around $10.


    Torval

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited March 2018
    Slapshot said:

    For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey   In return I give you my own challenge!   If I am just one in a million feel free to ignore each and every one of my posts.  I bet you can't do it.  

    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472242/let-the-pre-alpha-cash-shop-items-flow/p6#61FL7hY0wBu8FYez.99

    The challenge was happily excepted. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004
    Slapshot said:

    For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey   In return I give you my own challenge!   If I am just one in a million feel free to ignore each and every one of my posts.  I bet you can't do it.  

    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472242/let-the-pre-alpha-cash-shop-items-flow/p6#61FL7hY0wBu8FYez.99

    The challenge was happily excepted. 
    Wait,  what? You post some of the most random things.

    What is your point?  Didn't you copy that from another thread and aren't you responding to him here still?

    What am I missing? 
    Slapshot1188

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,530
    Kyleran said:
    Slapshot said:

    For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey   In return I give you my own challenge!   If I am just one in a million feel free to ignore each and every one of my posts.  I bet you can't do it.  

    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472242/let-the-pre-alpha-cash-shop-items-flow/p6#61FL7hY0wBu8FYez.99

    The challenge was happily excepted. 
    Wait,  what? You post some of the most random things.

    What is your point?  Didn't you copy that from another thread and aren't you responding to him here still?

    What am I missing? 
    I guess asking for an actual explanation on why a soulpack wasn’t a lootbox was too hard.  Anyhow... let’s not get off track here.

    Anyone else want to defend soulpacks as being something other than RNG lootboxes or can we just agree that they are?  Hard to get a 100% consensus on anything here but I think we are pretty close on this one!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,797
    Slapshot said:

    For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey   In return I give you my own challenge!   If I am just one in a million feel free to ignore each and every one of my posts.  I bet you can't do it.  

    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472242/let-the-pre-alpha-cash-shop-items-flow/p6#61FL7hY0wBu8FYez.99

    The challenge was happily excepted. 
    Freudian Slip?
    Kyleran
    Harbinger of Fools
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