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  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    You might just be playing dumb and ignoring what I pointed out earlier, about the similarities between games like Dark souls, Cod, to a game like Pantheon, but I'll point them out again. Darks souls has corpse runs, medieval setting and is regarded as an hardcore game, 3 similarities with Pantheon. CoD has group play whit team mates, like many other online FPS games that's where the fun lies in playing together with other friends, that's where Pantheon relates to CoD and some of it's player base (not all) and that's the player base Brad is referring too, the ones that enjoy and social shared group play experience.
    This.  I brought up Dark Souls and survival games because there are people in all demographics that want a real challenge.  I brought up CoD and MOBAs because there are people who really love teamwork, playing in a group.  
    1AD7AmatheOshodeniterWellspringdcutbi001GdemamiKumapon

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    edited March 2018
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:

    Limiting my choices to limit a response.  You're better than that.





    no, I just wanted to address that bit without having a long giant post taking up room . Let's not be part of the tin-foil hat crowd shall we?
    You typed the choices and posed questions based on those.  That was trying to restrict the conversation to topics which were convenient and important to you.  I only included my own opinions upon request.  You'll also notice that I actually addressed one of the questions you asked with my answer (opinion).  Some guy named @Sovrath asked me "But based on what?".  I was trying to hold comments in this thread to pointing out how people discuss by trying to kill any exchange of ideas.  You got me there.  Good for you.  You managed to get me ramble.

    I wouldn't suggest that going on your resume.


    Edit to add:  I'd love to continue this discussion today, but I am not feeling well.  I will hold the option to respond further tomorrow, if I can.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,212
    Mendel said:
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:

    Limiting my choices to limit a response.  You're better than that.





    no, I just wanted to address that bit without having a long giant post taking up room . Let's not be part of the tin-foil hat crowd shall we?
    You typed the choices and posed questions based on those.  That was trying to restrict the conversation to topics which were convenient and important to you.  I only included my own opinions upon request.  You'll also notice that I actually addressed one of the questions you asked with my answer (opinion).  Some guy named @Sovrath asked me "But based on what?".  I was trying to hold comments in this thread to pointing out how people discuss by trying to kill any exchange of ideas.  You got me there.  Good for you.  You managed to get me ramble.

    I wouldn't suggest that going on your resume.



    And again, I was just addressing that bit. /end
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,381
    Foe me the sad reality is that i doubt Pantheon can be a AAA game but then what other choices do we have...Wow?Wow just makes me feel sad,it is such a bad game design,so then i can choose EQ2 a slightly better version wow,,again i get bored fast.

    So then what, already tried the others,gave FFXIV a full 6 months,too much blizzard copying and Blizzard too much Soe copying.

    So what does that leave me,my fave FFXI,already played it for years,i want something new and something really good.
    So without Pantheon,i can literally see NO choices for anything incoming the next couple years.I don't care what some hype or marketing or reviewer says,i know what i am looking at in games ,so nothing is persuading me.

    We might not even see a HQ game for another 3/4/5 years,i mean last game i really enjoyed thoroughly was FFXI and that was from 2002,so 13 years still waiting for a non Wow/EQ2 clone.

    I thought,expected at least a few producers/developers to look at their games and think about their decisions,that appears to be a no such case,all i keep seeing is the same lazy tossed together mmorpg's over and over.

    Ok so likely no Pantheon for awhile,single player games,not many good ones there either.I can see now why i was stuck for so many years,gaming is just a market of lazy ideas,not many make passionate games.
    Oshokjempffdcutbi001jimmywolf

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,381
    To poster above....

    The ONLY thing i see different here from say Vanguard is brad will keep quiet,the team won't divulge much or do any bragging etc etc.
    Basically their experience has lead them to handle the marketing and community better than in the past but that won't help the game any.

    Two ideals in today's market ,stand in the way,well three.
    1 Investor's COO/board have a big say in how fast or how little gets done.
    2 Budget,nobody has endless money,there is a budget and imo a small one and also imo not enough to make a AAA game come alive.
    3 You can have all the experience you want,9 million years in experience but if all that experience knows is Wow clones,guess what you get?If all those people have never proven they can think or be real creative outside the box and stil afford to make it happen,then it's not happening.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,222
    edited March 2018
    Mendel said:
    Jimmydean said:
    Mendel said:
    @Mendel

    You truly don't understand, you don't create features inside a game to "please" a certain crowd, you create a game with a vision in mind and people that like the games vision will play it. How do you advertise a game? I have no idea but I'm pretty sure they'll do it like every other game, starting putting out more info, more adds etc.
    Brad is the one that mentioned his customers are currently playing CoD and other modern games.  Those games appeal to players who like fast action.  That's almost a defining trait, I'd say.

    So far, that's not Pantheon, or what Pantheon is trying to do.  The 'Vision' (where have I heard that term before) doesn't mesh with that desired market segment.  Feedback from a CoD player would almost certainly contain 'combat is too slow' suggestions, and if VR was really interesting in attracting those type of players, they would introduce changes to speed things up.  The embracing slow, methodical combat that could have been lifted directly from 1999 doesn't appear to be attempting in any way to appeal to Brad's stated target audience.  Feedback now would at least gives VR an opportunity to address this problematic issue before the game is released.  That is exactly how a game adapts itself to 'please' a certain crowd.

    VR may choose to ignore any cry to 'speed up combat'.  By doing so, they are not attempting to do anything specifically to attract those players.  That's their choice, choosing to not position their product to that market segment.  If so, they might need to amend Brad's historical statement about wanting to pursue that segment of gamers.  Bear hunters don't buy fishing nets, at least not for the primary reason of hunting bears.  Well, not successful (or surviving) bear hunters, anyway.

    Just because I'm looking at things from a different prospective doesn't imply I don't understand.




    He never said he was trying to cater to Call of Duty players. He was saying most of the old EQ1 players have moved onto other genres at this point because MMORPGs are an empty shell of what they used to be. He was saying there needs to be a game like Pantheon to bring us back into the MMORPG genre. I agree 100 percent with Brad.
    Another analogy for you then.

    Brad hopes to lure former EQ1 players from modern games that they adapted to, like Call of Duty, by offering them another dose of the 1999 game play they've already abandoned.  That's like trying to convince someone that they should choose a horse-and-buggy over a car to get around.

    That analogy implies that Brad wants to limit himself to that 550k peak population of EQ1.  I don't believe that to be the case, so even I'd hesitate to accept that analogy.  In the same blog quote (see above), he even suggests that his game hopes to be "closer to 10% than 1% " (1.5 million rather than 150k).  So he's hoping to recapture everyone who played EQ1, plus a million more people.  Maybe he's banking on a lot of 16 year old players who were barely 4 when WoW released.

    If this community doesn't like questions about how VR is going to attract CoD players, let me ask this instead.  How is Brad planning to dislodge the die hard EQ1 players that are still in EQ1 under Daybreak?  If that number is as high as 55k (which I don't believe, but it could be), that's 10% of EQ1's peak base right there.  What arguments do we anticipate will VR use to cause the Mar 16, 1999 EQ1 vet from not logging in to their competitor and into theirs?  I'd love to hear them, because I don't see anyone dislodging some current EQ1 players.  (Attachment to a character is a very real thing).

    At some point, no matter how VR defines their customer, they will need to attract them from whatever it is that they area currently doing.  If they are only building a game to appeal to that EQ1 crowd, they aren't hoping to grow anything at all.  We already know what the MMORPG market looks like under current conditions.




    Umm, there hasn't been a game made like EQ1 in a very long time, if ever.  I don't think they will have an issue pulling the old EQ crowd with a few of the younger crowd.  

    Edit:  MMO's have catered to no risk vs reward, faceroll open world, WoW clones for so long that I don't know why you have an issue with something not in that mold.  I can see you making these arguments if this game was going to be linear quest hub themepark # 642.
    Gdemami
  • KaenboKaenbo Member CommonPosts: 1
    I've seen quite a few people ripping on the combat, which is understandable for certain types of players who prefer a more "modern" approach. I, however, could not be happier that Pantheon is taking the route they are. I'll explain...

    DAoC was the sweet spot IMO. You had to choose your abilities / chains / spells wisely (in most cases), and you had to position yourself around the mob appropriately--or react appropriately--in order to execute your melee styles. The combat was challenging and fun but was in no way spammy because they had mechanics in place that made spamming not an option. Also, spell effects weren't overdone. The combat wasn't so fast-paced that players just mashed keys and your screen is just a fireworks display while SCT (and dmg/threat meters and all that other crap) cluttered what little of your visibility remained.

    (Yes, DAoC PvE was lackluster, but that's because it was a PvP game. Talking about the combat, not the PvE. If the mobs / drops had been more like EQ, and Spellcrafting had never been introduced, I think the PvE would have been pretty phenomenal.)

    The bolded text is where I feel that most games have fallen short, for my preferences at least. They are so focused on this "totally extreme, mind-blowing, fast-paced combat" that you lose all immersion... the MMORPG is no longer an intricate, beautiful world but just a game.

    I think this is where we find a HUGE difference in what people want. Some people enjoy the fast-paced, screen-flashing game and seeing stuff flying across the screen (ULTRA-CRIT! 1,534 DAMAGE!")... And that's perfectly fine! And lucky for you, that's most games these days. But I hate it. I truly, truly hate it. I like to be able to see what's going on. I like a clean UI that doesn't ruin (or significantly affect) immersion. I like being in a world not simply a game. I like slow, methodical challenge and planning, and difficult encounters/dungeons that don't give me headaches after 30 minutes.

    And this is why I'm hyped about Pantheon. I've hardly enjoyed a single MMORPG since I played WoW Vanilla over a decade ago. Pantheon's combat is relatively slow and lengthy, like EQ, but the abilities are more like DAoC/WoW. No linear instances that I abhor... No quest hubs that lead me around by the nose... 

    Pantheon is not being developed for everyone, and there are always plenty of MMORPGs to choose from, almost none of which are offering what Pantheon is offering. So if you love what Pantheon is doing, great. You finally have a damned game (read: world) you can enjoy for hopefully the next decade or longer. If you don't love / like what Pantheon is doing... there are literally dozens of other games out right now--and more coming out this year--that are more to your tastes than Pantheon.

    TLDR: I think the combat is heading in an excellent direction, considering the game is in Pre-Alpha. With some time / tweaks, it will be perfection for those of us who prefer a different style than the current trend. Hate how the combat looks? Try the game for free when it comes out. Still hate the combat? There are / will be a dozen MMORPGs out there that are / will be more tuned to what you're looking for.
    AraduneDullahan1AD7deniterdcutbi001KyleranBruceYeeKumapon
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,657
    Kaenbo said:
    No quest hubs that lead me around by the nose...  
    That part remains to be seen. 
    The perception system is an indication, but I have not seen evidence or a clear statement that Pantheon is not going to be a story driven game. I can live with a lot of details and mechanics that "could be better" but the real scale tipper is whether it will be a story driven game like all mmos since WoW, or it will be like Everquest. I am not sure we will know before we get hands on and dig in :D

    Otherwise I am in total agreement with everything else you wrote.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,639
    The Dark Souls, moba, CoD tangent has been a bit odd. I'm not sure why someone latched onto that comment.

    I get where Aradune was going with the comparisons. However, their differences in those games outshine the similarities so the comparisons feel awkward to me. No biggie. I get the point though. That's what people should take away, not the semantics of whether it's like Dark Souls. 

    As for the OP. I think gamers make their own hells.
    Kyleran
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    kjempff said:
    Kaenbo said:
    No quest hubs that lead me around by the nose...  
    That part remains to be seen. 
    The perception system is an indication, but I have not seen evidence or a clear statement that Pantheon is not going to be a story driven game. I can live with a lot of details and mechanics that "could be better" but the real scale tipper is whether it will be a story driven game like all mmos since WoW, or it will be like Everquest. I am not sure we will know before we get hands on and dig in :D

    Otherwise I am in total agreement with everything else you wrote.
    We've said this is *not* a quest hub game many times, many places :)
    AmatheWellspringOshodcutbi001jpedrote52delete5230Kilsinjimmywolf

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,025
    Aradune said:
    kjempff said:
    Kaenbo said:
    No quest hubs that lead me around by the nose...  
    That part remains to be seen. 
    The perception system is an indication, but I have not seen evidence or a clear statement that Pantheon is not going to be a story driven game. I can live with a lot of details and mechanics that "could be better" but the real scale tipper is whether it will be a story driven game like all mmos since WoW, or it will be like Everquest. I am not sure we will know before we get hands on and dig in :D

    Otherwise I am in total agreement with everything else you wrote.
    We've said this is *not* a quest hub game many times, many places :)
    Pffft...as if "you" would know....   

    ;)

    J/K, thanks for stopping by....
    Amathe

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,381
    Not a quest hub game is a start however that doesn't say a whole lot.
    I have no problem with quests,i just don't like it when they are the sole focus of a game to attain xp.However just totally leaving them out would be just as bad,if there only a few really good ones,i am ok with that.
    Quests should be an idea that plays into the game world and NOT done like Wow.

    Example,some npc or kingdom "whatever"has some cool items for sale but won't sell them unless you are a citizen of favor.Quests should be there for players do them if they want to and not because they have to.

    It is even better if most everything is a secret,you want to find out the reward,go do the quest.Perhaps a npc is waiting for a nice gift and won't tell you such but might hint at something that npc likes enjoys.
    The whole idea of a world of npc's is to talk to them,learn what each npc is all about,their lore/family perhaps hints that might lead to quests or something else.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    edited March 2018
    Wizardry said:
    Not a quest hub game is a start however that doesn't say a whole lot.
    I have no problem with quests,i just don't like it when they are the sole focus of a game to attain xp.However just totally leaving them out would be just as bad,if there only a few really good ones,i am ok with that.
    Quests should be an idea that plays into the game world and NOT done like Wow.

    Example,some npc or kingdom "whatever"has some cool items for sale but won't sell them unless you are a citizen of favor.Quests should be there for players do them if they want to and not because they have to.

    It is even better if most everything is a secret,you want to find out the reward,go do the quest.Perhaps a npc is waiting for a nice gift and won't tell you such but might hint at something that npc likes enjoys.
    The whole idea of a world of npc's is to talk to them,learn what each npc is all about,their lore/family perhaps hints that might lead to quests or something else.


    17.0 “The Grind” has kept some people from joining their friends in playing MMORPGs in the past. With no plans for quest hubs how will Pantheon appeal to players who aren't interested in a grind and want story-driven content?

    Gaining experience by any means, including killing mobs, finishing quests, etc. is still the fundamental way to keep track of a character’s vertical progression and accomplishments. That much is similar between earlier MMOs and Pantheon and, really, between almost all MMOs. The Perception system is our answer to boring quest hubs and being told to accomplish things that really have nothing to do with the environment and the lore. By using your Perception skill, by finding Perception triggers, and by following them where they lead, you will be doing 'quests', but quests given to you in context by the environment. You can be rewarded in just as many ways as a traditional quest: experience, items, a quest token, etc., as well as with special skills and abilities.

    17.1 How does the Perception System work?

    Through the Perception System, players can become a Keeper and quest dialogue is recorded in your Tome of Keeping. Keepers can utilize two skills to progress through the Perception System: a passive skill called Insight, and an active skill called Investigate. Once you’ve completed a Perception Quest, you won’t be bothered by the dialogue in the future. Hints and keywords are given to help direct players, no specific instructions will be given.

    17.2 How will I know if an NPC has a quest? Will we have to actually converse with NPCs or will we be prompted by punctuation over their heads?

    If you want to find out if an NPC has a quest all you have to do is… talk to him. We will NOT be utilizing the ‘over the head icon’ approach, and there will be no punctuation or other symbols above NPCs’ heads. You will either have to begin a conversation with an NPC or an NPC may begin one with you. Likewise, the environment itself will give clues and help you start or pick up a quest.

    We want you investigate your surroundings and gather information and interacting with NPCs is a big part of that. So don’t be shy, speak with the inhabitants of Terminus and engage the world!

    17.3 Will there be many quests?

    Story and lore elements are essential to our Quest system – they need to be meaningful and give purpose. But as a player you should never feel overwhelmed with a bunch of quests that are nothing but mundane tasks. When you get a quest the intent is that it will be epic in nature and reinforce the fact that you are a resurrected hero. More specifically, Pantheon is not a ‘quest hub’ game, where you move to one level appropriate hub, do a bunch of quests in that area, and then move to the next hub; rather, you will need to search out and find quests by interacting with PCs and in a less linear and more ‘sandbox’ style setting.

    WellspringFangrimkjempffBruceYeeGdemamiKilsinjimmywolf

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,657
    edited March 2018
    @Aradune
    OK I take that back, 17.0-3 is a somewhat clear statement. No quest hub does not exactly mean not story driven, but other sentences seem to support not story driven (especially the last sentence in 17.3).
    With 15 years of waiting for a mmorpg to go non story driven (I mean even vg was also story driven), I dare not quite hope until I hold the proof of the dream in my hand, forgive me.

  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    kjempff said:
    @Aradune
    OK I take that back, 17.0-3 is a somewhat clear statement. No quest hub does not exactly mean not story driven, but other sentences seem to support not story driven (especially the last sentence in 17.3).
    With 15 years of waiting for a mmorpg to go non story driven (I mean even vg was also story driven), I dare not quite hope until I hold the proof of the dream in my hand, forgive me.

    I hear you :)  But I can also say it sounds like we have a very similar dream :)
    kjempff

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    I'm suprised this game is using levels and not skill based. :|
    In my experience, much easier to balance an MMO using skills *within* levels.
    dcutbi001KyleranGdemamijimmywolf

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,869
    kjempff said:
    @Aradune
    OK I take that back, 17.0-3 is a somewhat clear statement. No quest hub does not exactly mean not story driven, but other sentences seem to support not story driven (especially the last sentence in 17.3).
    With 15 years of waiting for a mmorpg to go non story driven (I mean even vg was also story driven), I dare not quite hope until I hold the proof of the dream in my hand, forgive me.

    The best thing about early EQ was just being thrown into a world and left to figure things out.... The caht was so lively and the game was a blast...To me the story driven MMOs ruined alot fo the cool experiences from the early days.
    AraduneKyleran
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