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How much should the Overarching Story Affect Questing?
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,248
As I have been writing lore as of late, and determining the best way to implement lore/overarching story elements in to quest, I have came to a realization.
The two MMO's I have a long tenure with are Everquest and WoW. Both games treat questing differently. Let's focus on what sort of lore is presented in each.
Let's start with Everquest. If memory serves me right, lore was typically history of the zone/area and sometimes had some elements of the overarching story. I also think some quests were little short stories of characters that lived there. Of course this wasn't a prime way a player would progress in the game so not many players had the opportunity to do such a thing, unless it was for their Epic Weapon.
With WoW, questing is a more prominent means for progression so lore is presented more heavily. It seems as if Wow's lore is presented through minor stories, history of the place and also helps the player slowly progress through the overarching story. (Save for raiding)
So with both questing systems, I see a distinct difference with how much overarching story is implemented. For me personally, I prefer the Everquest approach that doesn't give the player a sense that they're apart of the overarching story. With Everquests model, it really made me feel more immersed. It allowed players to not feel obligated to participate in the main story and allowed them to create their own. However, I do like when there is an overarching story in MMO's to a degree. I thought Gw2's personal quests where interesting but at the same time not as immersive.
To me, when you log into an MMORPG, its very immersive breaking when every single player is THE HERO. Why not, when a player logs in, they're simply a citizen of the world and just exist.
I believe good design is providing a sound structure and varying degrees of fun options within that structure that makes sense. While, I enjoy the lore approach from Everquest, I also enjoy an overarching story. So I am reaching out to you guys to see what you all prefer? See poll below.
The two MMO's I have a long tenure with are Everquest and WoW. Both games treat questing differently. Let's focus on what sort of lore is presented in each.
Let's start with Everquest. If memory serves me right, lore was typically history of the zone/area and sometimes had some elements of the overarching story. I also think some quests were little short stories of characters that lived there. Of course this wasn't a prime way a player would progress in the game so not many players had the opportunity to do such a thing, unless it was for their Epic Weapon.
With WoW, questing is a more prominent means for progression so lore is presented more heavily. It seems as if Wow's lore is presented through minor stories, history of the place and also helps the player slowly progress through the overarching story. (Save for raiding)
So with both questing systems, I see a distinct difference with how much overarching story is implemented. For me personally, I prefer the Everquest approach that doesn't give the player a sense that they're apart of the overarching story. With Everquests model, it really made me feel more immersed. It allowed players to not feel obligated to participate in the main story and allowed them to create their own. However, I do like when there is an overarching story in MMO's to a degree. I thought Gw2's personal quests where interesting but at the same time not as immersive.
To me, when you log into an MMORPG, its very immersive breaking when every single player is THE HERO. Why not, when a player logs in, they're simply a citizen of the world and just exist.
I believe good design is providing a sound structure and varying degrees of fun options within that structure that makes sense. While, I enjoy the lore approach from Everquest, I also enjoy an overarching story. So I am reaching out to you guys to see what you all prefer? See poll below.
Lore & Quests
- How Much Overarching Story Be Presented in Quests?13 votes
- I like being apart of an Overarching Story like WoW and GW215.38%
- I like very little Overarching Story like Everquest53.85%
- I like the Overarching Story to shadow the World but not as prominent30.77%
Comments
I am thinking of it as what drives the entire world and leads it to evolve and progress. World progression is necessary, from my point of view. That doesn't necessarily have to be done through direct quests, to be fair.
GW2 is a good example of how the story progresses the world, though. The way the story drives you into new zones and expansions. The way the story unfolding actually "changes" and affects certain zones. Those are good things.
But, you can change the world without a direct questline being thrown in your face. So, I guess I fall somewhere in the latter category.
I feel like the quests and lore should be more of a supporting narrative to the evolving of the actual in-game world. They should explain what's going on in the world around you, and give lots of insight and knowledge, without putting you as the direct center of the universe, preferably.
What's important is that the world isn't stale and static, and changes happen... which, technically, can happen in any of the selectable choices of the poll, but my personal preference is definitely for the players to just be a part of the world, rather than the sun the world revolves around.
EVE tries to do an overarching story decently. But their current owner is more worried about looking pretty for an acquisition, than you know being CCP.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Second, worth discussing terminology briefly, we had a great thread recently about story and lore in games which highlighted that we all think about it slightly differently. So, for me:
With that in mind, my belief is that the overarching story is simply a backdrop to the game world, something that gives context to why you're there and why you're fighting.
But, it's just a backdrop. It's totally up to you as the designer how involved you want your players to be with that overarching story. I think that if you are building a heavily quest-based game then every quest should be mindful of that backdrop and remain coherent, but that doesn't mean that your quests have to be directly involved with the overarching story.
LotRO had the best approach in my opinion. You had the overarching story - Sauron bad, we're good - and so everything in the game took heed of that backdrop. We were good and we were fighting evil, sometimes that evil was directly tied to Sauron, sometimes indirectly. Then you had the main story - Frodo and the ring - and again we got involved in that, but not as the hero. We prevented people from following Frodo, or cleared up their mess, or investigated things on behalf of the rangers, or had a chat with Frodo in Rivendell when he was feeling down.
This kept us tied in to the main events and was very respectful of the overarching story whilst also (mostly) working within a massively multiplayer environment.
But, there were also plenty of stories and quests in the game that didn't have much to do with the overarching story or Frodo's story. Things like helping out all the people of Forochel (the ice bay) for example didn't really tie into the overarching story beyond "evil is rising". The stories were still ok and worked well within the setting, and the additional lore from that area helped build an even better picture of middle earth.
I think the biggest challenge for someone like you, as a writer, is how to ensure that the dictated story that you are writing meshes properly with our personal stories. Part of that is the whole hero thing - how can I be the hero and saviour when 10,000 other people on my server are also the hero? But a big part of that is that you cannot possible know the actions of your players. If you write a conversation between the player and an NPC and say something like "that fight was really hard" but the player found the fight really easy, that totally breaks immersion.
So, my preference is to keep dictated story to an absolute minimum, provide the barebones framework of the story to the player and let them fill in the details through their own actions.
The MMORPG genre has always had the potential to make living game worlds in which players become believable, motivated, and self-guided characters, but the calculated decision of most game developers to make immersion optional has made reaching that potential impossible.
An authentic role playing game should channel players into the story and sweep them along through the plot -- whether they want to be swept along or not.
I never got above level 38 in EQ, so I have no clue about any overarching story, but I did enjoy "stumbling upon" (no quest giver notations in game) little quests in EQ, like the ill tax collector in Qeynos, or the guy who cleaned the sewers near the bank that told of a lost girl in the sewers (The Cubert quest). I also really, really enjoyed the "player character quests" like high level Necromancers asking noobies in the starter zones to gather skeletal bones for their necro pet summoning spells.
What I really disliked and had trouble "believing" in WoW was that no farmer stayed helped, no Hogger stayed arrested, and as soon as you turned in a quest, another PC was there getting the exact same thing. I know this has to happen somewhat, but in WoW with the shining "!" overhead, everyone knew exactly where to go, instead of actually "Hail!"-ing an NPC to see if they had anything interesting to say.
I realize in today's mega-streamlined games, this would get a lot of flack, when "in the old days" it added to the experience of playing in a living, breathing world. I miss using the chatbox...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Modern quest driven so-called-mmorpgs have totally ignored this and their design reminds that of a single player game but with many people playing at once, and from there comes this 'everyone is a hero' syndrome.
What has to be done is to begin to design these games for player characters that are not heroes but work on the background of overarching story. How this should be done in practise, i don't know. I let the professionals to think this up.
My first DM and introducer into D&D way back when was a friend who wanted to be a writer. So he used my character and wrote a whole story (beginning, middle, and end) about him. Our gaming sessions (just us 2) consisted of him railroading me and me trying every trick I could think of to get off of those rails.
Don't "write a story" and take all volition from the players. Let them be evil or good. Let their choices and actions effect the world, like with reputations. As @cameltosis said, just give the barebones and let the players decide how to accomplish the quest. An evil Mage will approach the quest quite differently from a good Ranger... hopefully
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Where do you want to go ? Pick and choose stories or part of stories that are not tied to one quest but many quests or no quests, drop out and come back whenever you want. Dig deep into lore or ignore it, build on previous lore and stories at unexpected unrelated adventures later in your game.
Everquest was fundamentally a virtual world where you were a guest.
(You can always find arguments based on exceptions, mechanics, systems and especially era that speak against this, but from a general perspective it is true)
WoW: "You are playing our story now"
Welcome to the first of many stories we designed for you, we call them quests, and if you just follow our pointers we will get through it all and you will have a good experience. Please don't go outside the designated paths, it may look like something is out there but we made it so there is no reward - Don't want to break the system and waste the hard work we did on creating content, do we ?
This place exist because of you, the world exist to supply the environment for the stories we made for you. WoW was the beginning of themepark, because the game world is a series of designed rides driven by story and the world is "just" a place to hold this.
(You can always find arguments based on exceptions, mechanics, systems, era to make it sound like WoW and Eq are the same type of game, but from a general perspective they are not)
I don't really agree with the difference described as "You are the hero", because both games has that. The difference is in WoW the story and your path is already written, while in Everquest you had the choice to create your own story (even though some of it also consist of written story bits).
Even though I praise Everquest for its freedom, it is still far from so. But the funny part is no other mmo has improved on the freedom part since (You could argue some pvp mmos have freedom, but that freedom works on a entirely different level). In early 2000 I was excited about the future of mmos, because seeing what was possible to do with Everquest, there had to be even bigger and better virtual worlds in wait... And I waited 5 years 10 years and more, and finally EqNext was announced, the (on paper at least) natural step up from Everquest, a much more virtual world with freedom and even the ability as a player to affect the world and its story, instead of the dreadful story driven themepark type of mmo that WoW had started. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed WoW for a long time for what it was, but it could never compare with Everquest, and eventually I grew bored with story driven themeparks - Which unfortunately means every single mmo made since WoW.
And this is where we are, some people yelling they want old school back, some people they want a modern game with freedom, some just grind their stories like watching movies and move on to the next story game, and others just complaining not sure why they are bored, just that they are, and others just oblivious to the fact that their mmos could be different because they never tried anything else..
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I really wish some players would let go of this but it seems it's not possible.
"No" not every single player is the hero. It's the developers' way of implementing single player game play into a multi-player game.
Having said that, "yes" I think lore and story (such as it is) should be woven in the world, the cultures and systems that drive the world and not worn on the sleeve.
I remember a place in Lineage 2, Giants' Cave, that had a large area of land below it. On this land were HUGE swords, some broken, all in the ground, lying on the ground, etc.
It really gave a sense that "something happened here" but you didn't know what.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Playing through an overarching story done by quests is good for solo and permanent groups, but it also locks you to a certain place in the story of the zone.
Other types of quests and story are less fun on their own, but they can offer greater freedom to adventure and easier time for grouping up to do just a single quest or a couple of quests together.
To clarify, I do want to state that is a major issue in MMORPG's today. They're trying to implement a single player RPG into an MMORPG world, which doesn't translate well. That's what I meant with my statement. You should be the hero in a single player RPG, but shouldn't in an MMORPG.
For instance! I'm ok with the good vs evil story line and trying to stop some massive evildoer. HOWEVER! Don't send me on quests to kill fucking rats then!! Like what would you say in reality? "Sure! I can help you clear the rats from your basement. I'm on a quest to save the world, but that sounds pretty important to me." Ummmmm, no. So this is where I find that MMOs tend to lose that sense of urgency. What I think would actually add to the excitement is if there were real time limitations. Like don't tell me that the Duke of Nottingham is going to be in a caravan along this trail at this certain time, and then I go fuck off killing rats in old ladies' basements for the next 3 days and BOOM! He's actually still there when I arrive!
So I don't think that stories need to be linear, in all cases, but I really do wish that they'd focus on the story instead of just banging out side quests.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Thanks for your response. I couldn't agree more. I have been thinking about the quest design approach with Lotro in mind as well. Forochel was a great little side zone to explore and veer off the main story line. I like your categorization breakdown on the different ways to present lore/story into a game. I think I will have to study more of how Lotro presents their lore and how they allow the player to approach it. I still have a 75 RK on there
I am not treating the lore/story as if every player is the hero, but rather citizens of the world. I really liked how @kjempff described the difference between EQ and WoW. I would like to package the lore like Everquest but still have some overcast of the overarching story. The whole, players are a guest in the world rather you're playing our story now sort of thing was an excellent way to put it.
My goal is to have players feel like their in a living breathing world. One of my 4 distinct pillars of game design that I want to attempt to implement in every facet of design is immersion. I am still sold that MMORPG's were meant for intriguing community gameplay in an immersive world.
The more I ponder about this, the more I think the key into becoming a 'sandpark' like mmo, that was EQ, is the direction of which the quests are told. Like you said, by limiting dictated stories/lore and widening the objective of quests would go along way.
Currently, I have three layers of 'questing' for the players. Let me briefly describe each. But before, let me describe the setting of the world...
Theme of the World - Middle fantasy world with a perfect blend of Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones and Everquest. The Overarching story takes place at the tail end of a 700 year reign of the Seseraxian Empire. Thwarting the strangle the Empire has on the realm was through the line of House Wyk by birthing the Crusades against the Empire. The Crusaders have an opportunity to extinguish the Empire once and for all. Their leader, Seridan of House Wyk has been in a cat and mouse game against the Empire's premier General Mathias. The last cog in the Empire's machine. However, Seridan learns of intriguing information that the true enemies are the ones pulling the strings behind draping shadows. The overarching story takes place right before Seridan's tough choice of determining to focus his efforts to eradicate the Empire or go after a secret cabal conspiring between the shadows.
Missive Boards - Missives are posted tasks that can only be accessed in cities. All players from different seasons have equal opportunity to gain experience from Missives. There are several types of Missives that can be posted.
Missives are simply what today's MMO's call quests. (Kill, Collect, Harvest, Bounty tasks). They're merely tasks to gain moderate coin to minimal to moderate experience. Missives do not provide in-depth lore or are centralized to the overarching story. Missives are for 1-4 players. Players can even post their own Missives on the board to help reward other players.
Players can have no more than a dozen Missives active at once.
Quests - Quests are continual themed stories that are in 3 distinct paths that you obtain at level 1 and end at max level. I would say that Quests are meant to be linear as they follow a distinct path. Think of Quests like Lotro's Book quests.
Adventures - Adventures are meant for the players who want to explore the vast world they've logged into. This is where players can learn interesting lore and short stories of what they discover and stumble upon. This is a tough one to fully lock down right now, but I would like Adventures to be treated like quests in Everquest. You discover them. There will be no icon above NPC's heads either. Adventures are meant to reward the player for exploration. I also think it would be interesting if Adventures could be like 'dynamic objectives' that can influence a zone in varying degrees. If players keep on taking out the Empire's scouting regiments in a particular area of a zone, that could force the Empire to send more troops to the area and populate the zone with more NPCs. These are just ideas, I haven't fully fleshed this out yet or how it would be implemented. Just wanted to express the 3 avenues of which players can interact with the world.
Just wanted to give some insights of where I am coming from. I really believe I have an intriguing overarching story to tell, but at the same time, I really want to treat the players like "guests in the world" rather than players are "being on rails in apart of an overarching story."I wonder if there is a way to implement both without sacrificing freedom and immersion?
As far as one "one shouldn't be the hero in an MMORPG", I think you should if you do things that make you the hero.
But yeah, players shouldn't be designated the hero if they haven't done a damn thing.
I would love to see mmorpg's more like fable where, depending on what you do, you are considered a hero or villain and that npc's treat you accordingly.
But that's not going to happen.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You see to me, when I log in to a character, I am that character. Everything that happens to me in game contributes to the story of that character. That means for me to be able to achieve immersion, everything needs to mesh together. So, when I have a quest telling me one thing, my personal actions telling me something different, and other players telling me something different again, the immersion is completely lost.
So, the way I have to approach it is to ignore basically all dictated story as that is what is usually the most broken in terms of immersion, and it's usually the least interesting part of the game with boring and generic storylines. So, I have this initial period of time where I'm leveling up that I just have to treat as a boring tutorial and I have to kind of invent my own story and reasons for doing things.
Then, once I've hit endgame and have passed that roadblock I can finally become immersed. I use the lore from the game to influence my decisions which really helps with with immersion and my actions and the actions of everyone around me all mesh together to form a coherent personal story.
One day, an MMORPG will be released that "gets it" and is able to deliver compelling stories that still work when other people are involved.
Free the mind of players and they will create half the game experience with their imagination.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0