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The horde don't want Sylvanas!

DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,484
edited February 2018 in World of Warcraft
This is a hot topic on the wow/reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/7xzsx6/if_the_horde_gets_the_wrong_side_of_the_stick/?sort=confidence

"Sylvanas is one angry banshee, she is a powerful ally when things suits her interests. Her motives are not clear. And she uses us, the mighty horde, to never going back to the shadow realm. She is a self centric and egotistical b*tch"

Nobody liked that she burned down the great "world" tree, she is a villian next expansion, wont be long till they get rid of her. :(

pantaro[Deleted User]
«13

Comments

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Sylvanas, who wouldn't want an ally that betrays you at the worst possible moment after all  :p
    Tsiya
  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide Member RarePosts: 1,015
    eh i think she's cool.
    SBFord

    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,484
    I really love questing now! In the past I just wanna speed level and catch up. Now its nice reading all of it and im using immersion addon.



  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 515
    Dragnelus said:
    I really love questing now! In the past I just wanna speed level and catch up. Now its nice reading all of it and im using immersion addon.


    i've never been a huge fan of WoW but blizz gave me a free week so i said why not and Immersion + dynamicCam together have been great. also tried GW2 ui was pretty game changing for me when you combine them all.
    Dragnelus
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227
    I would not say the horde does not want her... Some of the players do not want her but i am pretty sure there is a good chunk of the faction who want to go back to whiping alliance and settle that score that is not really a score... 

    Especially as by horde logic the alliance is weak right now as it´s leader is young and untested. He is also a peacebroker... not a warrior. 

    Sylvanas, unreliable as she is at least is a warrior tested in both combat and tactics. Heck she is probably the most highly trained warchief the horde has ever had. Even if her skills lay more in the realm of small scale warfare than large. 

    After all Thrall was a good warrior and had a good head, but most if not all of his skills came from bitter old veterans and broken Orcs. In fact he had no proper traning as a general. 

    Garrosh... Well... He had issues.

    Vol´jin was a tribal leader sure, but most of his actuall combat traning was on a skirmish level. He was a good diplomat one could assume, not much of a general. 

    Sylvanas when alive was the ranger-general and not bad at her job as far as i understand it. Now there is a issue of her being a fanatic and more than a little unhinged. But as long as that is under control... She is with out a doubt the best choice for Warchief. 

    That ofc does not mean that she will not fuck everything up in the next expansion. It does after all seems to be a theme with her, that all she touch crumbles. 
    SBFord[Deleted User]Tsiya

    This have been a good conversation

  • KalebGraysonKalebGrayson Member RarePosts: 430
    I think they want polarizing.  She is definately that.  I can't stand her.  
  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,484
    edited February 2018
    tawess said:
    I would not say the horde does not want her... Some of the players do not want her but i am pretty sure there is a good chunk of the faction who want to go back to whiping alliance and settle that score that is not really a score... 

    Especially as by horde logic the alliance is weak right now as it´s leader is young and untested. He is also a peacebroker... not a warrior. 

    Sylvanas, unreliable as she is at least is a warrior tested in both combat and tactics. Heck she is probably the most highly trained warchief the horde has ever had. Even if her skills lay more in the realm of small scale warfare than large. 

    After all Thrall was a good warrior and had a good head, but most if not all of his skills came from bitter old veterans and broken Orcs. In fact he had no proper traning as a general. 

    Garrosh... Well... He had issues.

    Vol´jin was a tribal leader sure, but most of his actuall combat traning was on a skirmish level. He was a good diplomat one could assume, not much of a general. 

    Sylvanas when alive was the ranger-general and not bad at her job as far as i understand it. Now there is a issue of her being a fanatic and more than a little unhinged. But as long as that is under control... She is with out a doubt the best choice for Warchief. 

    That ofc does not mean that she will not fuck everything up in the next expansion. It does after all seems to be a theme with her, that all she touch crumbles. 
    Yeh, she just died too many times something snapped!

    Spoiler:

    "Honor means nothing to a corpse, Saurfang. You have the luxury of underestimating death, but it is something with which I am intimately familiar.
    Maybe you don’t care if your people die so long as it is honorable, but to me, this Horde is worth saving. Anyone who disagrees does not deserve to stand among us.
    So die your warrior’s death, High Overlord Saurfang. It means little to me. Perhaps I will raise your broken body to serve me once more.
    Or perhaps you will have a chance to say hello to your son."

    She’s going to save it, whether or not the people in it agree with her methods.

    Horde is all about honor.

    "We stand as one to fight for those who were lost at the battle for Teldrassil – for the families who have lost their homeland. That despicably cowardly act of war"



  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,127
    edited February 2018
    Dragnelus said:

    Horde is all about honor.


    The "old" Horde, the pre-Thrall Horde, the Horde that Saurfang knows and understands, has a rigid idea of "honor". This speech from Sylvanas is out of context so we don't know the specifics of why she is speaking as she is. Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with what she's said, even if it's cold. She is carrying out Vol'Jin's charge that began at the Broken Shore when he said, "Don't let the Horde die today" -- and I'm sure it's carrying forward into BfA and keeping the Horde races alive.

    Frankly, is not out of character for a good leader to speak in such a way who doesn't believe in letting someone throw their life away in a mis-guided sense of honor. If you know lore, you will know that this is the third time Saurfang has tried to end it all in "honorable combat". Sylvanas understands that Orcs old and new see him as their leader and he is a brilliant general. Both as a symbol and a military leader, he is needed. If it takes hurting his sense of "honor" to shake him out of his depression and willingness to die for an "ideal" over the lives of thousands of his faction members, then she does what needs to be done. Leaders don't have to be loved or even liked to be effective at their jobs.

    If anything, her view of keeping the Horde alive and Saurfang's sense of honor juxtapose the difference between the Old Horde and the new, multicultural Horde. 


     https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761916265

    To quote the above-referenced post.

    Most of us know that honor is culturally defined. We've all seen posters who take a position that the Horde should always be lead by the honorable races of the Horde but I came across a quest that got me thinking about whether or not those honorable races even have the same concept of honor.

    "From these hidden paths we can rain terror down on our enemies below. There is not much honor in hit-and-run strikes, but a good warrior knows to keep his foe off-balance." - Holgom

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Holgom

    Disreguarding the obvious willingness to forsake the "honorable way" in favor of practicality, strategy and wisdom, we see this is an example of an Orc specifying their interpretation of what honor means to an Orc.

    However, we also see in Vol'jin's dialog, and Troll strategy, that Trolls don't share this definition of honor. We also know that Tauren, being a hunter culture more than warrior culture, also don't share this Orc definition of honorable way of fighting.

    So, what does honor actually mean to the Horde races? being one of the Founding memebers and OG leaders, I think Vol'jin outlined it in near totality. 

    -he has no problem fighting from the shadows so killing enemies without needlessly throwing Horde lives away counts.

    -he forsook his oath to Garrosh so you can do that if your WC turns on you but, he also convinces the PC to forsake theirs in favor of following him. His reasoning is that Garrosh is working against the Horde that he swore his allegiance to. 

    -he appointed Sylvanas, knowing who she is. Some have said that it was pants on head and only hapend because of da Loa, but I question whether he would have followed their advice if da Loa told him to appoint Anduin. Or, would he question the Loa? We know he was no problem questioning the wisdom of the Loa, from his interaction with Bwonsambdi. So, it seems that his lauded Horde family equality is also a defining characteristic of Horde honor.

    To me, it seems clear that "Horde is family" is really the only unified definition of honor that al the honorable races share.

    Having, I think, established that, we need to address the undead elephant in the room. Sylvanas is WarChief. Last we hear, she doesn't see anyone but the Forsaken as "her people" or her "family". Though, we do see she cares for more than the Forsaken. We have dev confirmed word on the Belves and we see evidence for the rest of the Horde.

    So, based solely on the Horde's definition of honor, should Sylvanas be warchief? I have to say "absoluty".

    "But Jack, aside from your rage inducing forum avatar, how can someone who mains a Tauren drood support Sylvanas as Warchief and claim to care about Horde lore?"


    Excellent question, representation of reasonable Horde fans who don't understand it but are willing to hear me out. I'll explain.

    Papa Vol'jin understands what we have less of a grasp on. He understands what a family is when it comes to tribal societies. As a family, Sylvanas is an equal member, even if she doesn't see it that way. As a member of the family who has a certain set of skills to help out the tribe, it is both her ability and her duty to do so, in trying times. It does put her in a dangerous position, if she chooses to abuse that position, but ............... as a member of the family, and as an "adult" member of the family, she is owed the opportunity to fullfill her duty to the family. 

    As an adult, she will be held accountable for her actions, as Saurofang told her. But, she won't be treated as anything other than a member of the family until she decides, by betraying the family as Garrosh had, that she is unfit for that responsibility.

    I acknowledge that this is the reason people get hung up on her motivations but until her actions specifically betray her family, she is owed the opportunity to serve her duty to the family.

    My two pence.
    [Deleted User]kitarad[Deleted User]Avarixlaserit


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,484
    Honor is different for everybody. The blood elves really only care about survival and their magic honor is irrelevant to them culturally. Forsaken laugh at the honorable I'd imagine. For orcs honor is dying gloriously in battle. Troll's don't really care too much about honor but I imagine it involves keeping pacts and alliances. Tauren probably have the most altruistic honor system, only attacking in defense and keeping alliances. Goblins sell honor for the highest price. 

    Conclusion: Honor is an ideology that means something different to everyone and therefore cannot honestly be compared.
    BruceYee

  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,127
    Exactly. So saying that somehow her actions to him are "dishonorable" is applying the filter of your faction or your racial background to what is being done. Honor has no place on the battlefield. I'd rather have a pragmatic leader who understands the fight at hand and who makes intelligent decisions based on the current situation, not on what is honorable. The Horde has always done whatever it takes to survive even at the cost of inner conflict. That makes them so much more interesting than the human-dominated "for the Light" kumbaya sameness of the Alliance.

    I'd love to see Allies have moral conundrums or questions about Manduin's ability to "lead" them. Night Elves are an ancient society with thousands of years of combat and battle behind them. I don't for one minute believe they'd put up with the boy wonder being the military strategist for the entire faction. Humans are, sadly, very Mary Sue. I wish better writing, more inner conflict for them to keep things interesting. 
    Thupli


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • MargraveMargrave Member RarePosts: 1,328
    Wouldn't that be awesome if somehow the horde kick her out, and Then the Alliance doesn't accept her either so she becomes a the leader of a new, thrid faction!

    That would be amazing! 3 faction pvp in WoW.

    I know. I'm dreaming.
    SBFord
  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,484
    Whether you think... "thought" she was evil or not, Sylvanas has always been a master of strategy. So now her strategy is to commit genocide, destroy one World Tree, permanently control another, and that will keep the Alliance from attacking!? Oh, but I forgot, that separates the Horde and Alliance by a vast ocea- OH WAIT! Quel'thalas and Tirisfal exist!

    We DO NOT need a Garrosh 2.0. And how am I supposed to believe the Tauren, Trolls, Blood Elves, Highmountain, and Nightborn are ok with this!? Especially so soon after MoP?

    Oh, and then she insults Saurfang?

    She has, at this point, abandoned or betrayed every single race in the Horde but the goblins. INCLUDING HER OWN!

    The only thing she did in Legion was try to enslave the leader of the Valkyra so she could mass produce more Forsaken.

    quote:


    "She's not doing that to protect the Horde, she's doing it to get rid of the Desolate Council. She can't have free-willed Forsaken telling the rest of the Horde that they don't want to stay alive forever, that would bring Sylvanas' real reason for trying to achieve immortality to the forefront and then she'd be kicked out. 

    So she makes an elaborate scheme to get rid of her opposition and dupe the rest of the Horde (cause of course most of the Horde including the players are idiots) with a sob story about children. 

    And what's funnier, people actually believe her. 

    Until Saurfang finally realizes what's going on, after Sylvanas says to his face that she doesn't want to move the army off the field to save them from her crazy Azerite weapon's collateral damage and he is left behind to die simply because Sylvanas and Nathanos diverted everyone's attention from the civilians trapped inside the Undercity so he, Saurfang, was the only person who actually remembered them and ran in to evacuate the city. 

    Even with all that information being open to the public, loads of Horde players simply pretend she's a perfect angel and she wants the best for the Horde. 

    It's Garrosh 2.0, the same thing happened in MoP, the exact SAME PEOPLE defended him and are now defending her. Some people just have a hard-on for authoritarian evil regimes."
    ThupliZenJelly

  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,484
    edited February 2018
    Margrave said:
    Wouldn't that be awesome if somehow the horde kick her out, and Then the Alliance doesn't accept her either so she becomes a the leader of a new, thrid faction!

    That would be amazing! 3 faction pvp in WoW.

    I know. I'm dreaming.
    Undead faction with all races.

     
    Thupli

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,720
    edited February 2018
    She is fine as a warchief. If Blizzard make her a villain for next expansion they are showing they ran out of ideas and would just be repeating Garrosh all over again.
    SBFordBruceYee




  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 4,181
    We are the forsaken. We will slaughter anyone who stands in our way.
    SBFordDragnelusmarganculosAegirisZenJelly
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686
    Sylvanas is an unreliable bitch.

    The best leader for the Horde would definitely be the Tauren, Baine Bloodhoof. He's wise like is father and not a war mongering fool like Garrosh or a mentally sick undead like Sylvanas. And Tauren are known for the true sense of Honor, he would never have approved an horror like burning down the world tree.

    Actually, Tauren still being in Sylvanas's Horde doesn't make much sense.
    That would mean... there would be peace...  so my best bet is that will never happen, as in battle for Azeroth horde and Aliance will go for eachothers throat again

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,484
    We are the forsaken. We will slaughter anyone who stands in our way.
    With emphasis on anyone.

    /wink
    IceAge

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,066
    doesn't*

    The Horde doesn't want Sylvannas.

    Sorry.  Pet peeve.
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Maybe she's willing to do what needs to be done For The Horde and/or The Forsaken.

    There was a line Vince Vaughn said in True Detective season 2 "Sometimes the worst part of us is the best part of us" kinda reminds me of her.

    I'd like to see her don a new outfit/look since Anduin got his lion head costume but that'S probably less about flair and more about protection cause he kind of needs it IMO.
  • d_20d_20 Member RarePosts: 1,878
    edited February 2018
    Darksworm said:
    doesn't*

    The Horde doesn't want Sylvannas.

    Sorry.  Pet peeve.
    You would be quite peeved in Britain then.


    [Deleted User]


  • hydrax9hydrax9 Member CommonPosts: 2
    English actually comes from the germanic tribes that brought the language to britain.
  • d_20d_20 Member RarePosts: 1,878
    edited February 2018
    hydrax9 said:
    English actually comes from the germanic tribes that brought the language to britain.
    English is a Germanic language, but if you want to go back far enough we can say they are all Indo-European languages. What we call "English" is really a patchwork of origins, leaning a lot on French/Latin and other languages, as well.


  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 623
    Sylvanas is an unreliable bitch.

    The best leader for the Horde would definitely be the Tauren, Baine Bloodhoof. He's wise like is father and not a war mongering fool like Garrosh or a mentally sick undead like Sylvanas. And Tauren are known for the true sense of Honor, he would never have approved an horror like burning down the world tree.

    Actually, Tauren still being in Sylvanas's Horde doesn't make much sense.

    I bet he grills up real nice too
    SBFordmarganculosPhryZenJelly[Deleted User]
  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,484
    BruceYee said:
    Maybe she's willing to do what needs to be done For The Horde and/or The Forsaken.

    There was a line Vince Vaughn said in True Detective season 2 "Sometimes the worst part of us is the best part of us" kinda reminds me of her.

    I'd like to see her don a new outfit/look since Anduin got his lion head costume but that'S probably less about flair and more about protection cause he kind of needs it IMO.
    The thing is something just snapped cause of Arthas. After his death, she saw another Lich King on the thrown. But she coudlnt care anymore and throwed herself of the cliff on the spiked saronite.

    Valkries came trying to rescue her showing her visions:

    "Your people will perish!" said the dark-haired Val'kyr. She had clearly been the youngest of the battlemaidens in life and was now the most impatient in her undeath.

    "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!"


    Annhylde's eyes closed, and at once the figures vanished into their faceless spectral forms.

    Then Sylvanas felt herself being pulled away, her senses reeling. Everything disappeared, and time stopped.

    "She is lost!" Agatha wailed.

    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner tumbled in a free fall. Not in the physical sense; her body had been obliterated at the foot of Icecrown Citadel. It was her spirit that tumbled, lost, like a rudderless ship in a storm.

    She saw only darkness.

    And then she felt—truly felt, for the first time in a long while. She recoiled. In agony.

    Here she was, her spirit once again feeling whole, only to feel it suffer. To feel once more, only to feel abject pain. Cold. Hopelessness.

    Fear.

    There were others in the darkness. Things she didn't recognize, because nothing so terrible could exist in the world of the living. Claws tore at her, but she had no mouth with which to scream. Eyes looked at her, but she couldn't look back.

    Regret.

    She sensed a familiar presence. Recognized it. The taunting voice that had once held her in its grasp. Arthas? Arthas Menethil? Here? His essence rushed to her, desperate, then shrank away in horrified recognition. The boy who would be Lich King. Just a scared little blond child, reaping the aftermath of a lifetime of mistakes. If any part of Sylvanas's soul were not at that moment torn and tormented, she might have even felt—for the first time—the slightest glimmer of pity for him.

    In the grand landscape of all the world's suffering and all the evils of the infinite, the Lich King was… insignificant.

    Now the others had her. Surrounded her. Gleeful, tormenting, tearing at her consciousness, delighting in her suffering.

    Horror.

    This was to be her eternity: the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish.

    Was it a moment or a lifetime before a single thread of light broke through the darkness? Then they came to her, their arms extended. The nine Val'kyr, impossibly beautiful after this dark place, enshrouding Sylvanas in a single halo of light.

    She felt small and naked. Coiled into herself. When she found her voice again, it only sobbed. Sylvanas Windrunner was broken. Yet still, the Val'kyr did not judge.



    So only after seeing the torture that is awaiting her in hell she wanted to came back to the living:

    "Yes," she said. "We have a pact."

    Annhylde nodded grimly, then rose up, her features blurred and ghostly. "The pact is made, Sylvanas Windrunner," she said. "My sisters are yours, and you hold sway over life and death." A long pause, and then: "I shall take your place."

    The light was blinding.

    Then Sylvanas awoke, her body twisted but whole, the enormous column of Icecrown Citadel looming above her like a tombstone.

    Annhylde was gone. Sylvanas was surrounded by the eight remaining Val'kyr.

    As long as they lived, so too would she.


    Now she seeks immortality, to never experience that. 



  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,066
    edited February 2018
    d_20 said:
    Darksworm said:
    doesn't*

    The Horde doesn't want Sylvannas.

    Sorry.  Pet peeve.
    You would be quite peeved in Britain then.



    The British people I know are capable of conjugating basic, high frequency verbs like "do" and forming proper subject-verb agreement.

    You can check this by inverting subject and verb and turning the statement into a question:

    The Horde don't like Sylvannis. (Original Statement)
    Don't the Horde like Sylvannis? (Check Failure)

    The Horde doesn't like Sylvannis. (My Version)
    Doesn't the Horde like Sylvannis? (Check Success)
    d_20 said:
    hydrax9 said:
    English actually comes from the germanic tribes that brought the language to britain.
    English is a Germanic language, but if you want to go back far enough we can say they are all Indo-European languages. What we call "English" is really a patchwork of origins, leaning a lot on French/Latin and other languages, as well.

    English is not a patchwork of languages.  It's a language like any other, which has been changed via language contact - but not really by French.  Grammatically, English has been basically unaffected by French.  The only thing we inherited from French was vocabulary, a lot of which is used in upper register speech.  Colloquial English vocabulary is heavily dominated by words of Germanic roots.

    Languages are not categorized by vocabulary, because they routinely borrow vocabulary from other languages.  It's the only way to name things that previously didn't exist in your culture, for example.  It's why a lot of our sea vocabulary comes from Norse - as a result of language contact with them, and their being avid sailors.

    For example:  There is no point in creating a new word for "Sushi" if the Japanese already have a word for it.

    English was affected, grammatically, a lot more by Norse.  But that is also a Germanic Language (North Germanic, though, not West like English and German).  Because Danelaw and English Kingdoms (Mercia, Northumbria, etc.) were de facto dissolved when the French took over, all of these people had to live together.

    There were two Germanic languages on the British Isles:  Anglo-Saxon and Norse

    Both of them had multiple dialects.  When kingdoms were integrated, the Anglo Saxons were likely dominant, so they absorbed the Norse people.  However, the result of this is that the dialects leveled, to a great degree, and the grammar is likely to have been affected by the increased language contact across the dialect continuum, as well as across languages (with the Norse people).

    On one end, we have Middle->Modern English developing from the Mercian dialect of Anglo Saxon.

    On the other end, we have Scots developing from the Northumbrian dialect of Anglo Saxon.

    Their relative situation (being subjugated by the French) likely exacerbated this; as generally, people will self-segregate in these situations - it's why we have China Towns, etc.  It's why the Norse people had their own kingdom - Danelaw.  This was probably made difficult (if not impossible) under French rule.

    What we got from French was predominantly vocabulary.  French had very little affect on English grammar, phonology, etc.  Scandinavian, however, had a much bigger effect on the language (likely mostly in terms of grammar).

    I'm guessing the shift from Anglo-Saxon to Middle English is one of the most aggressive linguistic changes that has been documented.  Shame, the French had linguistic dominance.  [Not cause they're French] We don't have a written record to track how these changes happened, and in what order (or, at least not an extensive one) - though I'm sure linguists have hypothesized it to a fair degree.

    The French vocabulary was popularized by writers like Chaucer, who went out of their way to use it to sound classy.
    Phry
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