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How many people are really going to play this game?

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 30,089
    Ungood said:
    anemo said:
    Personally I think playing this game at release will probably be the only option.

    When people's characters start to die for good, it's at that point right there they are faced with the choice of spending money to buy their next.   Right when the game pissed them off the most and "took away" their character that they invested in, they need to decide to spend again.  They're seriously putting themselves in a position where their most stable and loyal players MUST make the decision to completely reinvest/choose/spend, rather than just letting a computer automatically withdraw the sub fee.

    For comparison how popular would EVE be if you couldn't come back to your character?   Would anyone come back to wow at expansions if all of their characters died of old age and fishing after they unsubbed?  Would you stay subbed to a game if you frequently needed decide to resub after the game burns you terribly?

    (personally I'm looking forward to it if their offline character/NPC programming is any good I totally plan on using it well, being a Screeps player, and buying up sparks/similar with ingame currency)
    If you walk into the game knowing that this is the situation.. what's the problem?

    That is like walking into a game with a sub fee and getting upset that you need to keep paying the sub to keep playing the game.

    It's not like they don't make things clear that your character will grow old and die, in fact that is a major point of the game.
    What isn't clear is how will progression transfer to future characters.

    There has been talk that even Caspian has been backing off some on this mechanic.

    As far as I'm concerned progression is a core pillar of a game such as this so devs better have a way for players to retain it.
    Phry

    Ten types of internet trolls - Which one are you?

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, back in EVE until then

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon





  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,177
    I haven't followed development. I've learned that MMOs take a very, very long time to develop - and they're often cancelled or delayed endlessly.

    So, I have absolutely no idea what's happening with this game. All I know is that the initial pitch and concept sounded great to me - and if it's ever released and resembles that sort of thing, then I'll most likely give it a proper shot.
    KyleranmystichazePhryAshyLarry24
  • UngoodUngood Member RarePosts: 1,376
    Darksworm said:
    Not in favor of characters growing old and die.  IMO, this is nothing more than a bad attempt to mimic the Seasons/Leagues aspect of ARPG games, and artificially inflate replay value by planned obsolescence.

    I think FFXIV tackles this in a better way - allow characters to level alternate classes on the same toon.  Lineage II's sub/dual class system also tackled this, as did the "Betrayal" mechanic in EQ2 and WoW's different class specializations.

    Plus, I find it quite disrespectful to my time investment for the result of it to disintegrate automatically.

    Pretty much doesn't exist to me, if that's actually a real thing (not sure if joking, or not... it sounds that awful).

    Isn't that why a lot of people here are NOT in favor of things like... gear resets?
    If it's not your thing, or does not sound like something you will enjoy, don't play it.

    Move along and find a game more your flavor.

    Life is too short to play games you don't even like the idea of.
    Octagon7711AshyLarry24
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 7,496
    Way to early for me to decide to play this, will have to wait until beta when most of the dust has settled.  It has some interesting ideas.

    "The courage to walk into the Darkness, but strength to return to the Light." Parables of the Allspring, Destiny

  • UngoodUngood Member RarePosts: 1,376
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    anemo said:
    Personally I think playing this game at release will probably be the only option.

    When people's characters start to die for good, it's at that point right there they are faced with the choice of spending money to buy their next.   Right when the game pissed them off the most and "took away" their character that they invested in, they need to decide to spend again.  They're seriously putting themselves in a position where their most stable and loyal players MUST make the decision to completely reinvest/choose/spend, rather than just letting a computer automatically withdraw the sub fee.

    For comparison how popular would EVE be if you couldn't come back to your character?   Would anyone come back to wow at expansions if all of their characters died of old age and fishing after they unsubbed?  Would you stay subbed to a game if you frequently needed decide to resub after the game burns you terribly?

    (personally I'm looking forward to it if their offline character/NPC programming is any good I totally plan on using it well, being a Screeps player, and buying up sparks/similar with ingame currency)
    If you walk into the game knowing that this is the situation.. what's the problem?

    That is like walking into a game with a sub fee and getting upset that you need to keep paying the sub to keep playing the game.

    It's not like they don't make things clear that your character will grow old and die, in fact that is a major point of the game.
    What isn't clear is how will progression transfer to future characters.

    There has been talk that even Caspian has been backing off some on this mechanic.

    As far as I'm concerned progression is a core pillar of a game such as this so devs better have a way for players to retain it.
    If you played DDO, they have a Reincarnation System, where you literally destroy a max level character in exchange to make an incrementally stronger starting level character by the same name, which takes around 3 times the EXP to level to max again.

    But you keep all your gear, your guild, and that kind of stuff. Not your favor unlocks, mind you, so if say you unlocked a vendor, you would need to go and earn the favor to unlock that vendor again.

    Ironically, the Item used to Reincarnate is a Store Item.

    So get this.. players would spend money, to kill one of their max level characters, to gain some minor bit of power, like.. really pitiful stuff too like +10 hp, (For reference, even gimped max level characters can have over 400+ hp) and then need to re-level all over again, now taking much more time to do so.

    Players loved that idea so much, DDO implemented several kinds of Reincarnation, like Racial, Epic, True, etc..

    So.. "Your character dies to give you a chance to make a new stronger character" is not really as unique as some people might think.

    While DDO it was not forced like it is going to be in CoE, the idea is still the same.

    Again, if that is not your flavor, or not what you want.. there is no shortage of other games out there would be glad to have your patronage, unless you're freeloader of course.. LOL.
    KyleranOctagon7711
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    anemo said:
    Personally I think playing this game at release will probably be the only option.

    When people's characters start to die for good, it's at that point right there they are faced with the choice of spending money to buy their next.   Right when the game pissed them off the most and "took away" their character that they invested in, they need to decide to spend again.  They're seriously putting themselves in a position where their most stable and loyal players MUST make the decision to completely reinvest/choose/spend, rather than just letting a computer automatically withdraw the sub fee.

    For comparison how popular would EVE be if you couldn't come back to your character?   Would anyone come back to wow at expansions if all of their characters died of old age and fishing after they unsubbed?  Would you stay subbed to a game if you frequently needed decide to resub after the game burns you terribly?

    (personally I'm looking forward to it if their offline character/NPC programming is any good I totally plan on using it well, being a Screeps player, and buying up sparks/similar with ingame currency)
    If you walk into the game knowing that this is the situation.. what's the problem?

    That is like walking into a game with a sub fee and getting upset that you need to keep paying the sub to keep playing the game.

    It's not like they don't make things clear that your character will grow old and die, in fact that is a major point of the game.
    What isn't clear is how will progression transfer to future characters.

    There has been talk that even Caspian has been backing off some on this mechanic.

    As far as I'm concerned progression is a core pillar of a game such as this so devs better have a way for players to retain it.
    If you played DDO, they have a Reincarnation System, where you literally destroy a max level character in exchange to make an incrementally stronger starting level character by the same name, which takes around 3 times the EXP to level to max again.

    But you keep all your gear, your guild, and that kind of stuff. Not your favor unlocks, mind you, so if say you unlocked a vendor, you would need to go and earn the favor to unlock that vendor again.

    Ironically, the Item used to Reincarnate is a Store Item.

    So get this.. players would spend money, to kill one of their max level characters, to gain some minor bit of power, like.. really pitiful stuff too like +10 hp, (For reference, even gimped max level characters can have over 400+ hp) and then need to re-level all over again, now taking much more time to do so.

    Players loved that idea so much, DDO implemented several kinds of Reincarnation, like Racial, Epic, True, etc..

    So.. "Your character dies to give you a chance to make a new stronger character" is not really as unique as some people might think.

    While DDO it was not forced like it is going to be in CoE, the idea is still the same.

    Again, if that is not your flavor, or not what you want.. there is no shortage of other games out there would be glad to have your patronage, unless you're freeloader of course.. LOL.


    First off, don't be so dismissive. We tend to do that a lot with games, for whatever reason. I would say that a character reincarnation feature is quite unique. I wasn't aware they had that, actually. That's pretty cool. 

    As far as active users go, I think your numbers might be a little rich, only because you're not considering that some people won't be playing every day of the week. There would be an initial spike and, for that, you're probably right 5k players might be reasonable. However, there will be a downward trend that continues over the next couple months. So I think it'll take at least a few months to figure out what the actual ongoing count will be. You can probably get a pretty good idea of what the curve looks like by searching up similar games on steamcharts. 
    Ungood

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 30,089
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    anemo said:
    Personally I think playing this game at release will probably be the only option.

    When people's characters start to die for good, it's at that point right there they are faced with the choice of spending money to buy their next.   Right when the game pissed them off the most and "took away" their character that they invested in, they need to decide to spend again.  They're seriously putting themselves in a position where their most stable and loyal players MUST make the decision to completely reinvest/choose/spend, rather than just letting a computer automatically withdraw the sub fee.

    For comparison how popular would EVE be if you couldn't come back to your character?   Would anyone come back to wow at expansions if all of their characters died of old age and fishing after they unsubbed?  Would you stay subbed to a game if you frequently needed decide to resub after the game burns you terribly?

    (personally I'm looking forward to it if their offline character/NPC programming is any good I totally plan on using it well, being a Screeps player, and buying up sparks/similar with ingame currency)
    If you walk into the game knowing that this is the situation.. what's the problem?

    That is like walking into a game with a sub fee and getting upset that you need to keep paying the sub to keep playing the game.

    It's not like they don't make things clear that your character will grow old and die, in fact that is a major point of the game.
    What isn't clear is how will progression transfer to future characters.

    There has been talk that even Caspian has been backing off some on this mechanic.

    As far as I'm concerned progression is a core pillar of a game such as this so devs better have a way for players to retain it.
    If you played DDO, they have a Reincarnation System, where you literally destroy a max level character in exchange to make an incrementally stronger starting level character by the same name, which takes around 3 times the EXP to level to max again.

    But you keep all your gear, your guild, and that kind of stuff. Not your favor unlocks, mind you, so if say you unlocked a vendor, you would need to go and earn the favor to unlock that vendor again.

    Ironically, the Item used to Reincarnate is a Store Item.

    So get this.. players would spend money, to kill one of their max level characters, to gain some minor bit of power, like.. really pitiful stuff too like +10 hp, (For reference, even gimped max level characters can have over 400+ hp) and then need to re-level all over again, now taking much more time to do so.

    Players loved that idea so much, DDO implemented several kinds of Reincarnation, like Racial, Epic, True, etc..

    So.. "Your character dies to give you a chance to make a new stronger character" is not really as unique as some people might think.

    While DDO it was not forced like it is going to be in CoE, the idea is still the same.

    Again, if that is not your flavor, or not what you want.. there is no shortage of other games out there would be glad to have your patronage, unless you're freeloader of course.. LOL.
    Good stuff,  but we dont really know how they plan to implement their version of reincarnation so I'll have to hold off on deciding to play or not for a while.

    Ten types of internet trolls - Which one are you?

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, back in EVE until then

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon





  • UngoodUngood Member RarePosts: 1,376
    CrazKanuk said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    anemo said:
    Personally I think playing this game at release will probably be the only option.

    When people's characters start to die for good, it's at that point right there they are faced with the choice of spending money to buy their next.   Right when the game pissed them off the most and "took away" their character that they invested in, they need to decide to spend again.  They're seriously putting themselves in a position where their most stable and loyal players MUST make the decision to completely reinvest/choose/spend, rather than just letting a computer automatically withdraw the sub fee.

    For comparison how popular would EVE be if you couldn't come back to your character?   Would anyone come back to wow at expansions if all of their characters died of old age and fishing after they unsubbed?  Would you stay subbed to a game if you frequently needed decide to resub after the game burns you terribly?

    (personally I'm looking forward to it if their offline character/NPC programming is any good I totally plan on using it well, being a Screeps player, and buying up sparks/similar with ingame currency)
    If you walk into the game knowing that this is the situation.. what's the problem?

    That is like walking into a game with a sub fee and getting upset that you need to keep paying the sub to keep playing the game.

    It's not like they don't make things clear that your character will grow old and die, in fact that is a major point of the game.
    What isn't clear is how will progression transfer to future characters.

    There has been talk that even Caspian has been backing off some on this mechanic.

    As far as I'm concerned progression is a core pillar of a game such as this so devs better have a way for players to retain it.
    If you played DDO, they have a Reincarnation System, where you literally destroy a max level character in exchange to make an incrementally stronger starting level character by the same name, which takes around 3 times the EXP to level to max again.

    But you keep all your gear, your guild, and that kind of stuff. Not your favor unlocks, mind you, so if say you unlocked a vendor, you would need to go and earn the favor to unlock that vendor again.

    Ironically, the Item used to Reincarnate is a Store Item.

    So get this.. players would spend money, to kill one of their max level characters, to gain some minor bit of power, like.. really pitiful stuff too like +10 hp, (For reference, even gimped max level characters can have over 400+ hp) and then need to re-level all over again, now taking much more time to do so.

    Players loved that idea so much, DDO implemented several kinds of Reincarnation, like Racial, Epic, True, etc..

    So.. "Your character dies to give you a chance to make a new stronger character" is not really as unique as some people might think.

    While DDO it was not forced like it is going to be in CoE, the idea is still the same.

    Again, if that is not your flavor, or not what you want.. there is no shortage of other games out there would be glad to have your patronage, unless you're freeloader of course.. LOL.


    First off, don't be so dismissive. We tend to do that a lot with games, for whatever reason. I would say that a character reincarnation feature is quite unique. I wasn't aware they had that, actually. That's pretty cool. 

    As far as active users go, I think your numbers might be a little rich, only because you're not considering that some people won't be playing every day of the week. There would be an initial spike and, for that, you're probably right 5k players might be reasonable. However, there will be a downward trend that continues over the next couple months. So I think it'll take at least a few months to figure out what the actual ongoing count will be. You can probably get a pretty good idea of what the curve looks like by searching up similar games on steamcharts. 
    Good point about the curve, there is always a spike at start, but some games tapered off, whiles others spikes, dropped and climbed again.

    Like for example. EQ, spiked, dropped, and then began to climb again, till it peaked 6 years later, same thing happened to WoW... so.. it's anyone's game on that happening.

    But.. solid point that population will change over the course of the year. Also noting things like School, Winter, Summer, and the like having an impact on the populations.
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
  • UngoodUngood Member RarePosts: 1,376
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    anemo said:
    Personally I think playing this game at release will probably be the only option.

    When people's characters start to die for good, it's at that point right there they are faced with the choice of spending money to buy their next.   Right when the game pissed them off the most and "took away" their character that they invested in, they need to decide to spend again.  They're seriously putting themselves in a position where their most stable and loyal players MUST make the decision to completely reinvest/choose/spend, rather than just letting a computer automatically withdraw the sub fee.

    For comparison how popular would EVE be if you couldn't come back to your character?   Would anyone come back to wow at expansions if all of their characters died of old age and fishing after they unsubbed?  Would you stay subbed to a game if you frequently needed decide to resub after the game burns you terribly?

    (personally I'm looking forward to it if their offline character/NPC programming is any good I totally plan on using it well, being a Screeps player, and buying up sparks/similar with ingame currency)
    If you walk into the game knowing that this is the situation.. what's the problem?

    That is like walking into a game with a sub fee and getting upset that you need to keep paying the sub to keep playing the game.

    It's not like they don't make things clear that your character will grow old and die, in fact that is a major point of the game.
    What isn't clear is how will progression transfer to future characters.

    There has been talk that even Caspian has been backing off some on this mechanic.

    As far as I'm concerned progression is a core pillar of a game such as this so devs better have a way for players to retain it.
    If you played DDO, they have a Reincarnation System, where you literally destroy a max level character in exchange to make an incrementally stronger starting level character by the same name, which takes around 3 times the EXP to level to max again.

    But you keep all your gear, your guild, and that kind of stuff. Not your favor unlocks, mind you, so if say you unlocked a vendor, you would need to go and earn the favor to unlock that vendor again.

    Ironically, the Item used to Reincarnate is a Store Item.

    So get this.. players would spend money, to kill one of their max level characters, to gain some minor bit of power, like.. really pitiful stuff too like +10 hp, (For reference, even gimped max level characters can have over 400+ hp) and then need to re-level all over again, now taking much more time to do so.

    Players loved that idea so much, DDO implemented several kinds of Reincarnation, like Racial, Epic, True, etc..

    So.. "Your character dies to give you a chance to make a new stronger character" is not really as unique as some people might think.

    While DDO it was not forced like it is going to be in CoE, the idea is still the same.

    Again, if that is not your flavor, or not what you want.. there is no shortage of other games out there would be glad to have your patronage, unless you're freeloader of course.. LOL.
    Good stuff,  but we dont really know how they plan to implement their version of reincarnation so I'll have to hold off on deciding to play or not for a while.
    It's Not really as relevant as you may believe, as long as power and control is progressive, the details are not that big an issue.

    IE: If in my next life, I learn a trade faster and have a higher skill cap, in my next life I am able to be better then I was in a previous life, faster, as well as, I keep the work shop, all the tools, and all my custom patterns, I will still be the best, most sought after Tradesperson in short order after my reincarnation, and it won't be long before there would be the requirement that someone has put in at least a few lives to even be considered skilled or a master of their craft, no matter how good they got on their first life.

    DDO was pretty much the same way, the more lives you had invested into your character the easier it was to get into end game raid content.

    I have little doubt that mind set would befall CoE by the end of the first year, that anyone not on at least their second life, would be viewed as a newb, and no doubt be starting behind in progress even to someone just recently re-born.

    It's simply a question of denoting what is of value, and ensuring that players:
    1. Got more of it with Each Life.
    2. Retained it through Re-birth.
    In DDO, Gear was King. (too bad they went and fucked it with, nerfing raid gear and shit.. assholes), but anyway, Gear was King in DDO, and that was something you kept. 

    In COE.

    We see that Land, Skill, and Custom UGC are pretty much 'king' .. so all they need to do, is find a way to pass that from life to life.

    As for what we know, we have been told that For Land Nobel's, it's being your own heir. I am sure it won't be much different for laymen to be their own offspring, and inheritors of their family's wealth. Which would include maintaining sole proprietor claims to any of their UGC or Custom Content they own.

    We are also told that in the next life, you will be better then you were in a previous life, so, perhaps, stronger, smarter, faster, able to learn skills quicker with a higher skill cap.. would all be sufficient to make reincarnating attractive.

    So while we don't know the details.. we know enough to know that, power gamers would do this simply for the additional power it would offer.
    Kyleran
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 30,089
    edited March 8
    Good stuff,  having never played a game like DDO with such mechanics its hard to visualize, so your explanation is quite helpful.

    Also I've never sold or intentionally deleted a character in any MMORPG (except for early alts at start)

    Heck. I avoid intentionally suiciding in game for fast travel purposes and have "run it in" more often than not after a night's activities, especially if dying causes any sort of loss, even a small one.

    I hate to surrender progression.

    B)
    Post edited by Kyleran on
    Ungood

    Ten types of internet trolls - Which one are you?

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, back in EVE until then

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon





  • VyntVynt Member UncommonPosts: 744
    A lot of MUDs had that mechanic. Get to max level and restart your character at level 1 as a rogue+, or vet or hero status, however they wanted to phrase it. You basically became a stronger version of yourself that had to relevel and for longer.

    Some variances were thrown in too. You might learn a new skill or even become an upgraded class. Rogue to Assassin or maybe just as your rogue+ at say level 30, you have quad attack, where as just a rogue, you had triple attack at level 80.

    It wasn't forced like CoE, but it kind of was because you would inevitably be weaker if you didn't restart.

    Personally I don't like the mechanic of growing old, but in the end, it is the same with restarting for a higher tier, but the details irk me lol.

    One issue I see with being forced to reincarnate is if you relevel all up again and become stronger, where does it end? Even the MUDs had limits with like 5 tiers or so, but here, if you just keep doing it over and over, some might have 20, 50, even 100 lifetimes of power. Could be daunting for a new player heh. And if you don't get stronger each life, but are forced to relevel anyway, that will piss people off too. Maybe there will be a limit. Like after your 5th or 10th life, you discovered the secrets to immortality and no longer fear the ravages of time. /shrug
    Kyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 30,089
    I dunno, this mechanic seems like a cheap trick to force players to rerun existing content because the devs can't be arsed to create some.

    I'm not a fan of rerunning content like dungeons 75 times just to get a full set of gear. (Based on RNG)

    Just let me save up some gold and buy it already.

    ;)

    UngoodOrangeBoy

    Ten types of internet trolls - Which one are you?

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, back in EVE until then

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon





  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,286
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    anemo said:
    Personally I think playing this game at release will probably be the only option.

    When people's characters start to die for good, it's at that point right there they are faced with the choice of spending money to buy their next.   Right when the game pissed them off the most and "took away" their character that they invested in, they need to decide to spend again.  They're seriously putting themselves in a position where their most stable and loyal players MUST make the decision to completely reinvest/choose/spend, rather than just letting a computer automatically withdraw the sub fee.

    For comparison how popular would EVE be if you couldn't come back to your character?   Would anyone come back to wow at expansions if all of their characters died of old age and fishing after they unsubbed?  Would you stay subbed to a game if you frequently needed decide to resub after the game burns you terribly?

    (personally I'm looking forward to it if their offline character/NPC programming is any good I totally plan on using it well, being a Screeps player, and buying up sparks/similar with ingame currency)
    If you walk into the game knowing that this is the situation.. what's the problem?

    That is like walking into a game with a sub fee and getting upset that you need to keep paying the sub to keep playing the game.

    It's not like they don't make things clear that your character will grow old and die, in fact that is a major point of the game.
    What isn't clear is how will progression transfer to future characters.

    There has been talk that even Caspian has been backing off some on this mechanic.

    As far as I'm concerned progression is a core pillar of a game such as this so devs better have a way for players to retain it.
    If you played DDO, they have a Reincarnation System, where you literally destroy a max level character in exchange to make an incrementally stronger starting level character by the same name, which takes around 3 times the EXP to level to max again.

    But you keep all your gear, your guild, and that kind of stuff. Not your favor unlocks, mind you, so if say you unlocked a vendor, you would need to go and earn the favor to unlock that vendor again.

    Ironically, the Item used to Reincarnate is a Store Item.

    So get this.. players would spend money, to kill one of their max level characters, to gain some minor bit of power, like.. really pitiful stuff too like +10 hp, (For reference, even gimped max level characters can have over 400+ hp) and then need to re-level all over again, now taking much more time to do so.

    Players loved that idea so much, DDO implemented several kinds of Reincarnation, like Racial, Epic, True, etc..

    So.. "Your character dies to give you a chance to make a new stronger character" is not really as unique as some people might think.

    While DDO it was not forced like it is going to be in CoE, the idea is still the same.

    Again, if that is not your flavor, or not what you want.. there is no shortage of other games out there would be glad to have your patronage, unless you're freeloader of course.. LOL.
    Good stuff,  but we dont really know how they plan to implement their version of reincarnation so I'll have to hold off on deciding to play or not for a while.
    It's Not really as relevant as you may believe, as long as power and control is progressive, the details are not that big an issue.

    IE: If in my next life, I learn a trade faster and have a higher skill cap, in my next life I am able to be better then I was in a previous life, faster, as well as, I keep the work shop, all the tools, and all my custom patterns, I will still be the best, most sought after Tradesperson in short order after my reincarnation, and it won't be long before there would be the requirement that someone has put in at least a few lives to even be considered skilled or a master of their craft, no matter how good they got on their first life.

    DDO was pretty much the same way, the more lives you had invested into your character the easier it was to get into end game raid content.

    I have little doubt that mind set would befall CoE by the end of the first year, that anyone not on at least their second life, would be viewed as a newb, and no doubt be starting behind in progress even to someone just recently re-born.

    It's simply a question of denoting what is of value, and ensuring that players:
    1. Got more of it with Each Life.
    2. Retained it through Re-birth.
    In DDO, Gear was King. (too bad they went and fucked it with, nerfing raid gear and shit.. assholes), but anyway, Gear was King in DDO, and that was something you kept. 

    In COE.

    We see that Land, Skill, and Custom UGC are pretty much 'king' .. so all they need to do, is find a way to pass that from life to life.

    As for what we know, we have been told that For Land Nobel's, it's being your own heir. I am sure it won't be much different for laymen to be their own offspring, and inheritors of their family's wealth. Which would include maintaining sole proprietor claims to any of their UGC or Custom Content they own.

    We are also told that in the next life, you will be better then you were in a previous life, so, perhaps, stronger, smarter, faster, able to learn skills quicker with a higher skill cap.. would all be sufficient to make reincarnating attractive.

    So while we don't know the details.. we know enough to know that, power gamers would do this simply for the additional power it would offer.
    Permadeath is a core part of the game and has been from the beginning.  The difference between this game and DDO is that in DDO it was optional to reincarnate. That is quite different from forcing everyone to have their characters die and then have to start over. I have no issue with the concept because they have been clear on it from the start but it is dramatically different to ask someone if they want to do that as opposed to it being a core of the game that everyone will have to experience. 

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,219
    If it has permadeath I wont be playing. No further questions.
  • VyntVynt Member UncommonPosts: 744
    Kyleran said:
    I dunno, this mechanic seems like a cheap trick to force players to rerun existing content because the devs can't be arsed to create some.

    I'm not a fan of rerunning content like dungeons 75 times just to get a full set of gear. (Based on RNG)

    Just let me save up some gold and buy it already.

    ;)

    It can be. I do remember playing a mud that on your restart, you had to be in a new area, so it didn't recycle content. Of course doing that is basically just normal leveling. It did solve the problem of stat inflation though. Characters didn't end up doing 1 million damage heh.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 30,089
    If it has permadeath I wont be playing. No further questions.
    Pretty much does,  so you are making the right decision if that's a total stopper for you. 

    I'm trying to be flexible and see what they come up with, who knows,  I might enjoy it


    Ungood

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  • DijonCyanideDijonCyanide Member UncommonPosts: 538
    Like many I think there are some interesting concepts being mulled over for this game, but hardly any finite details yet so I'll practice patience & wait to decide till I learn more.  It has promise though, but nothing yet that makes me feel I have to play it as soon as possible.
    Ungood
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 158
    Kyleran said:
    I dunno, this mechanic seems like a cheap trick to force players to rerun existing content because the devs can't be arsed to create some.

    I'm not a fan of rerunning content like dungeons 75 times just to get a full set of gear. (Based on RNG)

    Just let me save up some gold and buy it already.

    ;)

    i fully agree with you on that one 

    though i am sure many of the quests will be similar, apparently there won't be static repeat instances

    it will be more like if you run into a cave solo and there is a daemon in it, you'll get owned - come back with 20 friends, you 'might' kill it 

    if you do it won't respawn, but the AI might send some of his buddies in your direction, or the settlement you live in etc

    not seen these kind of AI mechanics before - not sure if they will be able to pull it off - if they can it should be pretty fun
    Kyleran
  • UngoodUngood Member RarePosts: 1,376
    Kyleran said:
    I dunno, this mechanic seems like a cheap trick to force players to rerun existing content because the devs can't be arsed to create some.

    I'm not a fan of rerunning content like dungeons 75 times just to get a full set of gear. (Based on RNG)

    Just let me save up some gold and buy it already.

    ;)

    LOL, you have no idea how apt that is.

    As I said, Gear was King in DDO, and there was all kinds of levels, of all Levels of Progression, IE: Named Level 1 Loot, then you had Rare, and Common Loot, which could drop at any level of the game. Raids were random chance at the good named loot, with a loot table of like 16 items, with only 3 of them sought after, and only 2 drop in the raid... of 12 people, and we all need to figure out how to share. I jest not, when I say in DDO, people would settle in for their 200+ run to get a single item they wanted from a dungeon/raid, which was why modifying the abilities and powers of Raid loot, totally killed the game for me.

    Now there were advantages to Reincarnating, more build points, (2nd and 3rd Life Only), Difficulty Unlocks, (2nd and 3rd Life Only), Umm resetting favor was in your advantage, as every like 100 favor, you would earn DDO points, which you could use to buy something from the store. so every life, you could earn enough "points" to buy a Heart (used to reincarnate) as well as other content.

    See for me, this whole "Grow Old and Die" is not unique, so, maybe because of that, I am very easy to embrace it. I fully get the feel of hating to give up any progress, I knew people in GW2 that would not teleport because they did not want to spend the few silvers to get around. So, nothing new on that front either, and total respect.. sorta.

    Like seeing that person run away from a fight in Eternal Crusade, because they don't want to take the body point loss for dying, where for me, I'll blitz into a room full of space marines swinging my choppa, sure they may kill me in barrage of bolter fire, and I'll go down without killing a single one of those 'umies, but.. the 4 orks behind me on the other.. yah.. they capped the point. I may not have gotten anything personal for my efforts and took a point loss in the end of things.. but.. I'll pay that price to win the battle.

    To each their own.

    Also, I don't see CoE as having much in the way of "Content".. it comes across as more a Sims™ Game then an Adventure Game.

    Kyleran
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
  • UngoodUngood Member RarePosts: 1,376
    Kyleran said:
    If it has permadeath I wont be playing. No further questions.
    Pretty much does,  so you are making the right decision if that's a total stopper for you. 

    I'm trying to be flexible and see what they come up with, who knows,  I might enjoy it


    I totally agree with you both on this one. You got to know what works for you, and also know that not every game will be a good mesh with your play style.

    But, just ti use an example, DDO was pretty much a Quest Hub and all the content was Instance Based, (like Neverwinter), so after playing that for years, I loved the idea of instance dungeons, so.. when I looked for a game I looked for that. I started playing GW2, and I loved their Open World and hated their Dungeons. 

    So.. just because the idea may sound the same, or even be the same idea, it does not mean they are even remotely similar in execution. Some games can take an idea and knock it out of the park.. other games roll a gutter ball with it.
    Kyleran
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
  • anemoanemo Member UncommonPosts: 1,430
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    anemo said:
    Personally I think playing this game at release will probably be the only option.

    When people's characters start to die for good, it's at that point right there they are faced with the choice of spending money to buy their next.   Right when the game pissed them off the most and "took away" their character that they invested in, they need to decide to spend again.  They're seriously putting themselves in a position where their most stable and loyal players MUST make the decision to completely reinvest/choose/spend, rather than just letting a computer automatically withdraw the sub fee.

    For comparison how popular would EVE be if you couldn't come back to your character?   Would anyone come back to wow at expansions if all of their characters died of old age and fishing after they unsubbed?  Would you stay subbed to a game if you frequently needed decide to resub after the game burns you terribly?

    (personally I'm looking forward to it if their offline character/NPC programming is any good I totally plan on using it well, being a Screeps player, and buying up sparks/similar with ingame currency)
    If you walk into the game knowing that this is the situation.. what's the problem?

    That is like walking into a game with a sub fee and getting upset that you need to keep paying the sub to keep playing the game.

    It's not like they don't make things clear that your character will grow old and die, in fact that is a major point of the game.
    What isn't clear is how will progression transfer to future characters.

    There has been talk that even Caspian has been backing off some on this mechanic.

    As far as I'm concerned progression is a core pillar of a game such as this so devs better have a way for players to retain it.
    If you played DDO, they have a Reincarnation System, where you literally destroy a max level character in exchange to make an incrementally stronger starting level character by the same name, which takes around 3 times the EXP to level to max again.

    But you keep all your gear, your guild, and that kind of stuff. Not your favor unlocks, mind you, so if say you unlocked a vendor, you would need to go and earn the favor to unlock that vendor again.

    Ironically, the Item used to Reincarnate is a Store Item.

    So get this.. players would spend money, to kill one of their max level characters, to gain some minor bit of power, like.. really pitiful stuff too like +10 hp, (For reference, even gimped max level characters can have over 400+ hp) and then need to re-level all over again, now taking much more time to do so.

    Players loved that idea so much, DDO implemented several kinds of Reincarnation, like Racial, Epic, True, etc..

    So.. "Your character dies to give you a chance to make a new stronger character" is not really as unique as some people might think.

    While DDO it was not forced like it is going to be in CoE, the idea is still the same.

    Again, if that is not your flavor, or not what you want.. there is no shortage of other games out there would be glad to have your patronage, unless you're freeloader of course.. LOL.
    Good stuff,  but we dont really know how they plan to implement their version of reincarnation so I'll have to hold off on deciding to play or not for a while.
    The general design of your starting character creation decisions seems to be choosing your perk/benefits at the cost of losing more sub time on death.

    So my purely speculative guess is that your remort will let you pick up some new options, or options without the harsher death penalty.
    Kyleran

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,367
    Trick question
    anemo
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