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Can A:IR and Bless Revitalize the AAA MMORPG? - Bill Murphy - MMORPG.com

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  • cjmarshcjmarsh Member UncommonPosts: 299

    Viannel said:

    Am I the only one annoyed that I've never heard of A:IR before and the article assumes you know what it is or what it stands for? God I hate acronyms paired with pretentious articles.



    I hope you're the only one because it spells it out in the second sentence of the article.
    BillMurphyblueturtle13AegirisSamhaelinfomatzConstantineMerus
  • MazenealMazeneal Member UncommonPosts: 60

    cjmarsh said:


    Mazeneal said:

    I think something folks shy away from is that P2W games, AA especially that continue on, after their peak numbers more than dwindle down. The fact they are still going equals prosperity. You even see it in faction chats by the players "This game is dead Jim" yet people still play.....and the new iterations of AA for example OTW just cater more and more to the whales........when it comes down to it, until people stop spending outrageous sums of money on these cash shops....it isn't gonna change =/


    Actually the cash shop model gets a lot of traction in eastern markets, which is where the stereotype comes from. I haven't seen recent numbers but a few years ago it wasn't uncommon for some games in eastern markets to sell virtual items with four digit price tags. These aren't crowdfunding packages either, but in-game purchases. And it's not the fact that cash shops exists that upsets most western consumers either, it's the high prices for items. The F2P model is actually much more efficient than the subscription model for a lot of reasons. Cash shops are here to stay, its the content and price points that will fluctuate.



    It isn't because of the high prices of items, it is when progression is so entwined with the cash shop, making it a pay to win game with no chance of closing the gap unless you swipe, that the majority in the west dislike. This is of course my opinion, but one that comes from enough experience that I am comfortable in stating this. I started in MUD's to EQ to VG, and just about everything to hit the market in between and beyond. The exodus's I have seen when it comes to any of these titles being P2W from their eventual corrupting of their F2P model, has been the larger reason for said exodus's. I understand the advantages of the F2P model vs sub based.
    cjmarsh
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,056
    A:IR looks like garbage and bless online already failed in korea and russia. For a revitilization of mmorpg genre we have to rely on kickstarter games.
    TorvaltruewarlordBruceYeeitchmonOyjord
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    edited February 2018
    Shaigh said:
    A:IR looks like garbage and bless online already failed in korea and russia. For a revitilization of mmorpg genre we have to rely on kickstarter games.
    In the interest of full disclosure, you should point out they all look like kickstarted mmos with the exception of Ashes. I'm not sure how they're pulling off something that looks good so quickly while these other projects keep fuddling around for years on end with little to show.

    edit: I mean,if these games looked like the indie games coming out of the west the rabid salty comments here would be endless. It's sort of embarrassing to compare them.
    ConstantineMerus
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,056
    Torval said:
    Shaigh said:
    A:IR looks like garbage and bless online already failed in korea and russia. For a revitilization of mmorpg genre we have to rely on kickstarter games.
    In the interest of full disclosure, you should point out they all look like kickstarted mmos with the exception of Ashes. I'm not sure how they're pulling off something that looks good so quickly while these other projects keep fuddling around for years on end with little to show.
    Ashes of creation doesn't look good, they have some landscape and animation but their combat model is extremely basic, you hit mobs with damage and they die after dealing damage while those mobs barely deal any damage back.
    TorvalConstantineMerus
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • cjmarshcjmarsh Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Shaigh said:
    Torval said:
    Shaigh said:
    A:IR looks like garbage and bless online already failed in korea and russia. For a revitilization of mmorpg genre we have to rely on kickstarter games.
    In the interest of full disclosure, you should point out they all look like kickstarted mmos with the exception of Ashes. I'm not sure how they're pulling off something that looks good so quickly while these other projects keep fuddling around for years on end with little to show.
    Ashes of creation doesn't look good, they have some landscape and animation but their combat model is extremely basic, you hit mobs with damage and they die after dealing damage while those mobs barely deal any damage back.
    Ashes of creation might have some flaws with its art direction but you could only say it looks bad if you didn't understand how incredibly hard it is to make enough assets for an entire MMO, let alone an underfunded one.
    truewarlordOyjord
  • cjmarshcjmarsh Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Mazeneal said:

    cjmarsh said:


    Mazeneal said:

    I think something folks shy away from is that P2W games, AA especially that continue on, after their peak numbers more than dwindle down. The fact they are still going equals prosperity. You even see it in faction chats by the players "This game is dead Jim" yet people still play.....and the new iterations of AA for example OTW just cater more and more to the whales........when it comes down to it, until people stop spending outrageous sums of money on these cash shops....it isn't gonna change =/


    Actually the cash shop model gets a lot of traction in eastern markets, which is where the stereotype comes from. I haven't seen recent numbers but a few years ago it wasn't uncommon for some games in eastern markets to sell virtual items with four digit price tags. These aren't crowdfunding packages either, but in-game purchases. And it's not the fact that cash shops exists that upsets most western consumers either, it's the high prices for items. The F2P model is actually much more efficient than the subscription model for a lot of reasons. Cash shops are here to stay, its the content and price points that will fluctuate.



    It isn't because of the high prices of items, it is when progression is so entwined with the cash shop, making it a pay to win game with no chance of closing the gap unless you swipe, that the majority in the west dislike. This is of course my opinion, but one that comes from enough experience that I am comfortable in stating this. I started in MUD's to EQ to VG, and just about everything to hit the market in between and beyond. The exodus's I have seen when it comes to any of these titles being P2W from their eventual corrupting of their F2P model, has been the larger reason for said exodus's. I understand the advantages of the F2P model vs sub based.
    Actually I agree with you, I was wrong to assert that it was only price point though I think that can be a factor as well. P2W and F2P being entwined in the public psyche might actually be the strongest reason most AAA developers are hesitant to enter the genre.
  • PresciencePrescience Member UncommonPosts: 246
    No.
    BruceYeeNildenobii
  • GreatnessGreatness Member UncommonPosts: 2,078
    edited February 2018
    I think one we have to keep in mind defining success, neither will be "WoW success", but the hope is to get to possibly BDO success or may be even FFXIV or Elder Scrolls Online success. What I enjoyed about BlueHole Studios was they continued Tera despite it was not a huge success early on and only had a small-medium sized group of players yet it continues now and even going to consoles. I hope they continue that attitude for AI:R.
    In terms of my personal opinion, AI:R does seem all over the place as Sovrath had mentioned but I hope it will be fun. I think we are all looking to Bless being fun despite it failing multiple times (and I am still hoping) as we do not have any other tangible big AAA name soon unless you could the ones still in production that keep getting pushed back... likely 2020+ before seeing them (ie. Star Citizen, Ashes of Creation, etc.).

    ~Greatness~

    MMORPG Blog
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  • hyllyhhyllyh Member UncommonPosts: 314
    BDO successfull? this joke! ppl buy it cause it's near 5$ most of the time, consume the honeymoon and throw it away! as you need to be afk online, it seem to be full of ppl but it's a smoke wall.
    for the 2 game cited above, kakao will milk the players for sure and bless is a phoenix, i bet more on the second but really no hype at all for mmo genre since ff14
    /sad
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited February 2018
    Torval said:
    Rhygarth said:
    I hope both games do well and i will try both but if there is 1 item in the cash shop that even remotely adds a slight advantage i will uninstall, I am done with all the p2w bullshit in mmo's and that even goes for stupid pets that loot for you...
    I'm about the opposite. If they only have cosmetics and no advantage items, I'm out. I'm sick and tired of being the only demographic funding mmos.
    That's a thing to remember about these microtransaction and F2P monetization systems: it's not so great when it's you footing the bill for everyone else.

    At least with cosmetics there's no power imbalance introduced.  It helps prevent the "keeping up with the Joneses" pressure players feel when logging into a game that supports pay to advance/win/whatever buzzword fits today to describe gameplay systems compromised by monetization systems.

    image
  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,444

    Torval said:


    IceAge said:



    Torval said:




    Sovrath said:


    IceAge said:


    I don't have too much faith in A:IR , but I hope Bless delivers.



    Question : Who's the publisher this days for Bless in EU/NA?


    They are self publishing.




    It was in the article too. For someone who is so picky about facts, RTFA is a good place to start.






    I am sorry, who are you ?


    Someone who RTFA. You?



    Someone who has "boys" who RTFA for me ! Now off you go ..

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • CryolitycalCryolitycal Member UncommonPosts: 205
    I honestly I don't think MMORPGs can be revitalized until it's possible to create some truly immersive VR-type of experience. Why? Because the genre is stale and its possibilities all explored. Without adding something truly new and revolutionary, you will most probably fail.

    To add to this issue, there also the fact that these games require a very delicate balance that one can easily upset with apparently minor changes. My guild lasted 10+ years in WoW while raiding hardcore. It only took one expansion that added an infinite grind and merciless RNG in BiS items, and the guild collapsed sometimes during Tomb of Sargeras progression.

    I can't help but shrug when I think of it. 10 years worth of building bridges and getting to know people, and it all went to waste in a few months because Blizzard made stuff unfair for us raiders. None of us went back to WoW.

    Knowing how good Blizz is at this MMO thing and having played through lots of other MMOs, I doubt we will see the genre take off again anytime soon - especially with some Asian MMO. I don't know anyone from my 10 years of WoW that likes the Asian type of character design, models, animations, they're all alien to Westerners.
  • PurplePoloPlayerPurplePoloPlayer Member UncommonPosts: 145
    I just can't bring myself to play another Korean, anime grind-fest particularly if they have p2w cash shop elements. Camelot Unchained is our next hope for a proper pay model. They just received another cash infusion and I'm hopeful we'll see a true beta out of them soon (meaning, one more year).
    krgwynne
    Check out my stream at www.twitch.tv/purplepoloplayer!
  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 499
    edited February 2018

    Torval said:


    Rhygarth said:

    I hope both games do well and i will try both but if there is 1 item in the cash shop that even remotely adds a slight advantage i will uninstall, I am done with all the p2w bullshit in mmo's and that even goes for stupid pets that loot for you...


    I'm about the opposite. If they only have cosmetics and no advantage items, I'm out. I'm sick and tired of being the only demographic funding mmos.



    You can go fly a friggin kite, and cry more... I've said it before, your "it's f'ed up for me so I hope its f'ed up for everyone else too" attitude makes me angry. You don't have to buy the shit. If looking pretty is so important to you go play 2nd life.

    If anything campaign for subscription based games that don't put ANYTHING behind an extra paywall, instead of hoping for game ruining pay to win. Stop supporting games with cash shops. We won't miss you in games that offer only cosmetics. You will hence be known as... "F you all, I want my shinies" Torval
    TorvalRhygarthkrgwynneBodeanG
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,273
    edited February 2018
    I'll be trying both games :D

    Someone said "BLizz is good at this mmo thing"

    No they aren't imho. Prior to wow'a release blizzard had a 50million + player fanbase built up between WarCraft and Starcraft. They saw the rise of mmos and success of Lineage 2 in North America and released one of the mostlinear treads mills in the history of gaming. They took away the players ability to forge their own story, and put the player in the theme park.

    To say they are "good" as in medicore ideas and content, I can agree with. Its like putting auto tune on Britany Spears.
    I'll rephrase this, I don't agree.

    Just because there were people interested in WarCraft and/or Starcraft doesn't mean they would want to play an mmorpg. Of any sort. Those games are about something else. I played the heck out of Warcraft  and did not want to play World of Warcraft. A friend of mine who played the heck out of Warcraft didn't play World of Warcraft until a few years ago. He just wasn't interested. They were different games.

    Also World of Warcraft released about a year after Lineage 2 but was announced a few years prior to Lineage 2's release. Lineage 2 had nothing to do with World of Warcraft, they would never want to make a Lineage 2. And you know what? They were FARRRRR more successful in the west than Lineage 2 ever was.

    They wanted to take Everquest's ideas and get rid of what they thought it did wrong.

    And, they had millions and millions of players at World of Warcraft's height. People loved it. They made friends, had great experiences and had a damned good time. I should add not every player cares "to make their own story" a lot just want to chill and have a few laughs. Also a lot of players HATE open games where there are no arrows to point them in the right direction. So "no" to their own stories.

    Just because you only recognize one type of mmorpg experience doesn't really mean you define what an mmorpg should be.

    You don't seem to see beyond your nose. And yeah, I played Lineage 2 for years, even tried World of Warcraft in beta and went back to Lineage 2.

    But at least I could recognize that they were doing something right for a certain segment of the population. And believe me, take "gamerz" out of the mmorpg equation and most players have never heard of Lineage 2. Or Ultima or Asheron's call.

    but they know world of warcraft.


    cjmarshinfomatzVyethConstantineMerus



  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    edited February 2018
    Is "spit balling" what the kids are calling getting high and saying far out things these days? XD

    *Update* ROTFL. Bill wrote this? C'mon son. Really?

    Still having fun obliviously farming potatoes in Archeage?

    image
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    edited February 2018
    BDO is successful with PVErs (a huge group of players in the west, since PvP sandbox deathmatch clones are pretty niche over here) because there is a ton of PvE content (outside of combat). Plus it has a pretty large RP playerbase, which of course very much care how they look (hence successful cosmetic cash shop despite the price). AND getting killed by pvp is nothing...no penalties or anything except maybe losing crystals on armor, such a minor thing that its not even a real penalty. Only get penalties as a "red" marked player.

    Ashes of Creation on the other hand, despite it being PvP based, punishes gankers (the real people most PVErs have issues with) so much that each time they kill someone, eventually they just literally end up being useless and not a threat at all. I dunno how PVE will be in AoC though, but if there is a lot of PVE content it too will likely be successful due to its anti-ganker mechanic(s).

    If A:IR or/and bless heavily reward gankers, they will be also be very niche. Despite what many sandbox fans praise for all the sandbox PvP clones they puke out, the only successful ones offer safe(r) areas (like EVE) or/and penalize them. Or like BDO's method, make dying in PVP even less of a problem than being killed by a PVE mob in WoW. 
    truewarlordkrgwynneMaxBacon

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  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,181
    no PvP centric game is going to save MMORPG's.
    SamhaelobiikrgwynneCryolitycalkjempffOyjord
  • KumaponKumapon Member RarePosts: 1,333
    I think Bless will start out as popular in the first month or so, but then will see a huge decline. It's a hard core open world PVP game at it's core. Your safe up to lvl 29 but then after lvl 30 it's open season. Westerners won't like that at all. 

    As for AIR, it's still in CB, and only about 60% done. It does show some promise, but will have to wait and see what comes. 
    Torval
  • DavodtheTuttDavodtheTutt Member UncommonPosts: 415
    I think what MMORPGs need is to get away from "What will make the most profit?" which means getting away from making games based on the greatest common denominators. The more games are geared to generating the max amount of profits, and attracting the largest number of players (which goes with the first goal), the more the beloved RPG experience gets trampled in the dust of the crowd.

    I think there are enough people who are looking for an immersive Role Playing Game experience to be profitable, if those behind it are modest in their financial (needs/wants) goals. Also I think if we can get that, eventually more people will be attracted to it.

    Right now, even the "sandbox" "open world" games I've seen seem little different from single-player games with very limited options in character creation (not counting the uncounted teeny tiny facial adjustments and color grids) and one or a few storylines that are little different no matter what character you create. There may be a tree of options but you're still doing what umpteen others have done. You might also engage in crafting, farming, or gathering (fishing, mining, etc.) but these are generally trivial, unrealistic, and often involve the one main activity: killing things. You can explore, and in the "open world" games go where you want -- but you're not going to find much if anything on your own until you stumble into one of the storyline signs... oh, excuse me, NPC contacts -- which remain in one place and say the same things to everyone, just as signs do.

    I know, I know, "players don't want" a realistic game with (e.g.) fishing that feels like real fishing (you can fish anywhere, and where and how you fish determine what you catch, and there's no silly or unrelated minigame-type activity involved), They don't want to have to figure out what to do, they don't want to use logic to find ore (instead of looking for glowy spots or funny-looking rock piles), they don't want to ask around to find someone who might have a quest and then navigate using a map to find the goal of the quest, they don't care if the game has the exact same set of quests for everyone for all time (as long as new ones are added when they hit the level cap). They just want to level up fast and get lots of 733T LOOT or PvP and PWN noobs and get all their drops. Well, that's exactly what's ruining MMO"RPG"s for the rest of us!
    VyethRemyVorender
  • exile01exile01 Member RarePosts: 1,050

    DMKano said:

    In current state - Bless will only disappoint. The Korean devs are making a HUGE mistake letting an unfinished version on Steam be the firsr impression in the west.

    AIR - too little is known to make an educated opinion at this time.





    comone you played almost all MMOs and yet you dare to stay you dont have a opinion over a reskinned mmo?
    TheScavenger
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,029



    DMKano said:

    In current state - Bless will only disappoint. The Korean devs are making a HUGE mistake letting an unfinished version on Steam be the firsr impression in the west.

    AIR - too little is known to make an educated opinion at this time.




    coming from a devout WoW fan, I'll take 2 grains of salt. 

    I'll take niche over theme park treadmills any day of the week.



    Good for you...

    To revitalize an interest in AAA games requires a demonstration of mass market appeal to justify the cost, something that at least WoW historically achieved and somewhat maintains.

    No matter how good a game scratches a niche it will at best inspire more niche, and as such won't revitalize anything.
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,870
    cjmarsh said:
    Shaigh said:
    Torval said:
    Shaigh said:
    A:IR looks like garbage and bless online already failed in korea and russia. For a revitilization of mmorpg genre we have to rely on kickstarter games.
    In the interest of full disclosure, you should point out they all look like kickstarted mmos with the exception of Ashes. I'm not sure how they're pulling off something that looks good so quickly while these other projects keep fuddling around for years on end with little to show.
    Ashes of creation doesn't look good, they have some landscape and animation but their combat model is extremely basic, you hit mobs with damage and they die after dealing damage while those mobs barely deal any damage back.
    Ashes of creation might have some flaws with its art direction but you could only say it looks bad if you didn't understand how incredibly hard it is to make enough assets for an entire MMO, let alone an underfunded one.
    But didn't they say in one of their promo videos that they have "some of the most experienced MMO developer's the gaming industry has ever seen"? view here at 0:30


    When you have those experienced people +30mil already secured then stuff like combat animations and creating terrain that doesn't all look like copy and paste jobs shouldn't be too hard?

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,029
    edited February 2018
    I think what MMORPGs need is to get away from "What will make the most profit?" which means getting away from making games based on the greatest common denominators. The more games are geared to generating the max amount of profits, and attracting the largest number of players (which goes with the first goal), the more the beloved RPG experience gets trampled in the dust of the crowd.

    I think there are enough people who are looking for an immersive Role Playing Game experience to be profitable, if those behind it are modest in their financial (needs/wants) goals. Also I think if we can get that, eventually more people will be attracted to it.

    Right now, even the "sandbox" "open world" games I've seen seem little different from single-player games with very limited options in character creation (not counting the uncounted teeny tiny facial adjustments and color grids) and one or a few storylines that are little different no matter what character you create. There may be a tree of options but you're still doing what umpteen others have done. You might also engage in crafting, farming, or gathering (fishing,P mining, etc.) but these are generally trivial, unrealistic, and often involve the one main activity: killing things. You can explore, and in the "open world" games go where you want -- but you're not going to find much if anything on your own until you stumble into one of the storyline signs... oh, excuse me, NPC contacts -- which remain in one place and say the same things to everyone, just as signs do.

    I know, I know, "players don't want" a realistic game with (e.g.) fishing that feels like real fishing (you can fish anywhere, and where and how you fish determine what you catch, and there's no silly or unrelated minigame-type activity involved), They don't want to have to figure out what to do, they don't want to use logic to find ore (instead of looking for glowy spots or funny-looking rock piles), they don't want to ask around to find someone who might have a quest and then navigate using a map to find the goal of the quest, they don't care if the game has the exact same set of quests for everyone for all time (as long as new ones are added when they hit the level cap). They just want to level up fast and get lots of 733T LOOT or PvP and PWN noobs and get all their drops. Well, that's exactly what's ruining MMO"RPG"s for the rest of us!
    Games with a AAA cost are definitely going to want to see a return on all that investment, so it will of course be profit seeking, and not modestly so. Games with a lower development cost could probably get away with making less, but will accordingly offer less. The audience looking for extreme realism in MMORPGs is smaller than the audience prefers an easier path. As such any AAA will appeal to the latter audience rather than the former, as that is where the money is.
    SpottyGekko
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