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Death of MMO genre - Nuff said ...

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  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    ikcin said:
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Except by many people's definition it's not a sandbox.

    Its lacking feature "x", "y" or "z" which they feel are "requirements" for a game to be called a "true" sand box. 

    Or it isn't enough like game "abc" or game "def" which they believe set the "gold" standard 20 plus years ago.

    Fact is there is no more elusive gaming term to define than this one IMO.

    I always tell people I'll know a sand box game when I feel one, after that who can say?

    It is open world, and gives freedom to the players, how it is not sandbox?
    Thats such a loose description that you could pretty much apply it to World of Warcraft, if not just about every none instanced MMO/Single Player game out there. :p
    KyleranRobsolf
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Phry said:
    ikcin said:
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Except by many people's definition it's not a sandbox.

    Its lacking feature "x", "y" or "z" which they feel are "requirements" for a game to be called a "true" sand box. 

    Or it isn't enough like game "abc" or game "def" which they believe set the "gold" standard 20 plus years ago.

    Fact is there is no more elusive gaming term to define than this one IMO.

    I always tell people I'll know a sand box game when I feel one, after that who can say?

    It is open world, and gives freedom to the players, how it is not sandbox?
    Thats such a loose description that you could pretty much apply it to World of Warcraft, if not just about every none instanced MMO/Single Player game out there. :p

    Since when WoW became none instanced? It seems you mistake the meaning of freedom :) The freedom for example is not the possibility to go to another game/instance to PvP or to PvE, but to do both in the open world - the current game/instance. Every arena or battleground is actually different game with different rules. This is not freedom, it is broken design.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Kyleran said:
    Albatroes said:
    I wouldn't say mmo genre is dead, but its definitely in a sad state. I mean half the current "homeless" mmo players are excited for Bless, which has already failed twice in the eastern market. Maybe I'm wrong, but most games that have started (key word here) and failed in the east dont find much success in the western market either. Of course many mmos that started in the west tend to not do so well in the east (FFXIV, GW2, etc)
    This genre is so dead I'm playing Runescape 3......and sort of liking it.....

    Stranger Days it seems.
    It isn't dead, supply has just far outpaced demand for a while now.

    The western market simply needs to balance itself better to avoid forcing publishers to monetize so aggressively to merely make end's meet.

    In that sense, all the delays with crowdfunding may help thin the waters and open up larger potential bases for new ideas.
    KyleranCecropia

    image
  • 1AD71AD7 Member UncommonPosts: 50
    edited March 2018
    Loke666 said:
    1AD7 said:

    I don't think you need to become the next WoW to save the genre.  We just need an MMO "World" like we had back in the day, but with modernized graphics and gameplay.  If it points other devs in a different direction that could very well be the start of saving the genre.  =D
    I guess that depends on how you define "saving". If you mean put the genre back where it was back in 1999 then that is possible. If you mean where it was in 2005 that just ain't going to happen.

    In any case I hope it does well, we need a good game with more difficulty and co-operation badly now.
    I am just saying that you probably should be careful overhyping it, I don't think the average fan of modern MMOs will like it since that isn't what it is going for. If some of them like it, fine, but it really cateers more to oldschool MMOers who really doesn't have much to play anymore.
    VR is casting a much broader net than oldschool MMO gamers.  They want to appeal to people who enjoy MOBA's, Survival Games, MMORPG's, even certain FPS games.  The key is creating "challenging content" that requires "cooperation" with other players.  If you enjoy those two things, there is a decent chance you'll enjoy Pantheon.  Those are the exact reasons I started playing MMO's back in the day so whether you're new, old, or somewhere in between ... if you want to play in a "WORLD" rather than just a video game ... where socialization/reputation is important, where the environment is dangerous, where progression feels meaningful and where having capable friends is the difference between have and have not ... Pantheon is worth a look.  
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited March 2018
    Kyleran said:
    Albatroes said:
    I wouldn't say mmo genre is dead, but its definitely in a sad state. I mean half the current "homeless" mmo players are excited for Bless, which has already failed twice in the eastern market. Maybe I'm wrong, but most games that have started (key word here) and failed in the east dont find much success in the western market either. Of course many mmos that started in the west tend to not do so well in the east (FFXIV, GW2, etc)
    This genre is so dead I'm playing Runescape 3......and sort of liking it.....

    Stranger Days it seems.
    It isn't dead, supply has just far outpaced demand for a while now.

    The western market simply needs to balance itself better to avoid forcing publishers to monetize so aggressively to merely make end's meet.

    In that sense, all the delays with crowdfunding may help thin the waters and open up larger potential bases for new ideas.
    The biggest MMO market now is China, and it will grow much faster than any Western market. In Asia there are almost untouched markets like India. This is the feature for the marketing. And the mobile platforms. In the last few years none of the big western publishers, so called AAA, did not release or even announced a new MMORPG. So how the supply outpaces the demand? And the demand is fading in the western countries. If I can play a good solo RPG, and a good multiplayer FPS or moba, why to play a bad MSORPG instead? WOW literally killed the genre.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    ikcin said:
    Kyleran said:
    Albatroes said:
    I wouldn't say mmo genre is dead, but its definitely in a sad state. I mean half the current "homeless" mmo players are excited for Bless, which has already failed twice in the eastern market. Maybe I'm wrong, but most games that have started (key word here) and failed in the east dont find much success in the western market either. Of course many mmos that started in the west tend to not do so well in the east (FFXIV, GW2, etc)
    This genre is so dead I'm playing Runescape 3......and sort of liking it.....

    Stranger Days it seems.
    It isn't dead, supply has just far outpaced demand for a while now.

    The western market simply needs to balance itself better to avoid forcing publishers to monetize so aggressively to merely make end's meet.

    In that sense, all the delays with crowdfunding may help thin the waters and open up larger potential bases for new ideas.
    The biggest MMO market now is China, and it will grow much faster than any Western market. In Asia there are almost untouched markets like India. This is the feature for the marketing. And the mobile platforms. In the last few years none of the big western publishers, so called AAA, did not release or even announced a new MMORPG. So how the supply outpaces the demand? And the demand is fading in the western countries. If I can play a good solo RPG, and a good multiplayer FPS or moba, why to play a bad MSORPG instead? WOW literally killed the genre.
    Because the western market has been served for a while now.

    Blizzard bailed on the idea of creating a new title because there's no growth to be had there, merely shifting of existing customers from one product to the next.

    The barrier to entry has been reduced to literally nothing to entice players to try our  MMORPG instead of the other guys' MMORPG.

    Publishers left the industry wholesale.

    It's all signs of a market too saturated to make for a good investment opportunity. 

    image
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited March 2018
    Because the western market has been served for a while now.

    Blizzard bailed on the idea of creating a new title because there's no growth to be had there, merely shifting of existing customers from one product to the next.

    The barrier to entry has been reduced to literally nothing to entice players to try our  MMORPG instead of the other guys' MMORPG.

    Publishers left the industry wholesale.

    It's all signs of a market too saturated to make for a good investment opportunity. 
    In fact it is quite the opposite. Even lame games like BDO made spectacular profit. F2P - P2W, which is in fact P2P with random fees (the real P2W is not what players call P2W), even if it is not combined with B2P, is very profitable for the big studios with guaranteed market. This year the MMO players probably will overpass 1 billion over the world. Games like LoL keep making great earnings and attracting more players. The barrier to entry for a customer should not exist - this is a good marketing. The rich people are not the best buyers. Every retail bank will approve that. There are many indie MMORPGs, with the additional publishers. Nobody leaves the market. But let take Blizzard as example. They wanted to make space WoW. But realized this is incredibly stupid idea and shut the project. Why to make a game that will be a competitor to your own games? The lack of any really new ideas is the biggest problem of the market now. Many people claim the Nokia is the best phone ever, while others are waiting for the iPhone. It may come from some AAA studio - the Apple of the games, or from a charismatic new inventor like Tesla.
    MadFrenchie
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    ikcin said:
    Because the western market has been served for a while now.

    Blizzard bailed on the idea of creating a new title because there's no growth to be had there, merely shifting of existing customers from one product to the next.

    The barrier to entry has been reduced to literally nothing to entice players to try our  MMORPG instead of the other guys' MMORPG.

    Publishers left the industry wholesale.

    It's all signs of a market too saturated to make for a good investment opportunity. 
    In fact it is quite the opposite. Even lame games like BDO made spectacular profit. F2P - P2W, which is in fact P2P with random fees (the real P2W is not what players call P2W), even if it is not combined with B2P, is very profitable for the big studios with guaranteed market. This year the MMO players probably will overpass 1 billion over the world. Games like LoL keep making great earnings and attracting more players. The barrier to entry for a customer should not exist - this is a good marketing. The rich people are not the best buyers. Every retail bank will approve that. There are many indie MMORPGs, with the additional publishers. Nobody leaves the market. But let take Blizzard as example. They wanted to make space WoW. But realized this is incredibly stupid idea and shut the project. Why to make a game that will be a competitor to your own games? The lack of any really new ideas is the biggest problem of the market now. Many people claim the Nokia is the best phone ever, while others are waiting for the iPhone. It may come from some AAA studio - the Apple of the games, or from a charismatic new inventor like Tesla.
    If Blizzard thought they could add even half the consumers they get with WoW to their base by releasing another MMORPG, I highly doubt they would've shuttered it for a completely different genre.

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    edited March 2018
    1AD7 said:
    VR is casting a much broader net than oldschool MMO gamers.  They want to appeal to people who enjoy MOBA's, Survival Games, MMORPG's, even certain FPS games.  The key is creating "challenging content" that requires "cooperation" with other players.  If you enjoy those two things, there is a decent chance you'll enjoy Pantheon.  Those are the exact reasons I started playing MMO's back in the day so whether you're new, old, or somewhere in between ... if you want to play in a "WORLD" rather than just a video game ... where socialization/reputation is important, where the environment is dangerous, where progression feels meaningful and where having capable friends is the difference between have and have not ... Pantheon is worth a look.  
    I have already sponsored it, no need for the salespitch to me. ;)
    Kyleran
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Because the western market has been served for a while now.

    Blizzard bailed on the idea of creating a new title because there's no growth to be had there, merely shifting of existing customers from one product to the next.

    The barrier to entry has been reduced to literally nothing to entice players to try our  MMORPG instead of the other guys' MMORPG.

    Publishers left the industry wholesale.

    It's all signs of a market too saturated to make for a good investment opportunity. 
    You might be reading too much into that: Blizzard thought that Titan would just shuffle customers for them  but that doesn't mean that it is impossible to get new westerners into the genre, just that Blizz thought that Titan couldn't do it.

    With Wow like games you are probably right though, if the genre want to attract many new players it will have to release MMORPGs that differs from the standard model that have been around so long. All MMOs don't have to be that similar to the games we had the last 15 years though.

    I think the key is to look on what an MMORPGG should accomplish (like bringing thousands of people together in the same world, interacting with eachothers) and try to figure out new ways of getting that to happen instead of just trying to  improve on features that have been very similar for a long time.

    And it might be easier to introduce the already established model into a country like India or Etiopia where most people never tried anything like it but if you want to attract a large new chunk of western players you need to offer them something new and that takes some hard work.

    The other option is to try to bring back the people who once played Wow and similar MMOs but have given up on the genre since, I think that is rather tricky though. The best way for that might be to go back to Wow 2004-2005 and take that in another direction they would like more, something that isn't easy either but still probably far easier then to bring in millions of new westerners.
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,647
    It's strange....MMORPG's popped into existence because a segment of the gaming base was sick and tired of arcade gameplay and wanted something more in depth.  They weren't labeled virtual worlds for nothing.  Yet, since the advent of UO and EQ, developers and certain segments of the gaming base have been trying wholeheartedly to corral MMO's back into the arcade fold.  Turning them back into twitch over strategy, lobbies instead of worlds, multiplayer instead of Massively multiplayer, competitive over cooperation, simple over complex and most of all, rewarding anti-social behavior.

    image
  • adam_noxadam_nox Member UncommonPosts: 2,121
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    edited March 2018
    adam_nox said:
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
    There are so many personal feeling and opinions stated as facts in this post I don't even know where to start... can someone help me out? ;)

    "Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead" - the consensus of WHO? Yours? A few self proclaimed "old schoolers" and some trolls here on this forum?

    "What game of quality or new population has arisen?" - GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, TSW, Archeage, Neverwinter,Wildstar...

    "I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west." - You can't dismiss that game just because of some "feeling" of yours. The game has a solid player base, no matter how much you dislike it (and I don't like that game either).

    "WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos" - WoW was acclaimed by both the industry and the players.

    "because of it's single player nature from 1-60" - You obviously haven't played Vanilla WoW, or WoW before cataclysm.

    "it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually." - close to 13 millions active accounts during WotLK, yeah, that alienation conspiration of yours worked just fine... for Blizzard.

    My opinion? You should go out more. Go out of this forum, and realize that the world isn't limited to what a few disgruntled vets and/or trolls post here.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • Texas7Texas7 Member UncommonPosts: 24
    There are so many awseome MMO's coming out in the next couple of years... From Ashes, to Pantheon and CU. Different games for people with different tastes. Plus, there are some expansions coming out for existing popular MMO's, such as WoW, TESO, FFXIV...

    I really don't understand how people keep talking about the genre dying... it is pure nonsense.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
    Join our community on:

    Ashes of Creation: https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Archangelus/


  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    Texas7 said:
    There are so many awseome MMO's coming out in the next couple of years... From Ashes, to Pantheon and CU. Different games for people with different tastes. Plus, there are some expansions coming out for existing popular MMO's, such as WoW, TESO, FFXIV...

    I really don't understand how people keep talking about the genre dying... it is pure nonsense.
    Some people just enjoy listening themself talking... that's all. They will post some opinion, no matter how stupid it is, and do their best to try to present it as an undeniable fact.

    Don't look for any logic or common sense in this, there's none.
    Phry
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,957
    adam_nox said:
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
    There are so many personal feeling and opinions stated as facts in this post I don't even know where to start... can someone help me out? ;)

    "Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead" - the consensus of WHO? Yours? A few self proclaimed "old schoolers" and some trolls here on this forum?

    "What game of quality or new population has arisen?" - GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, TSW, Archeage, Neverwinter,Wildstar...

    "I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west." - You can't dismiss that game just because of some "feeling" of yours. The game has a solid player base, no matter how much you dislike it (and I don't like that game either).

    "WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos" - WoW was acclaimed by both the industry and the players.

    "because of it's single player nature from 1-60" - You obviously haven't played Vanilla WoW, or WoW before cataclysm.

    "it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually." - close to 13 millions active accounts during WotLK, yeah, that alienation conspiration of yours worked just fine... for Blizzard.

    My opinion? You should go out more. Go out of this forum, and realize that the world isn't limited to what a few disgruntled vets and/or trolls post here.

    I totally agree with adam_nox,

    It may not necessarily be dead, but the market changed to games that play as games-online.  It's a new crowed now and their not playing mmorpg's.  Sure not everyone........some people are diversified and can live with what we have now.  But millions are lost.

    And what we have now are simple, easy cash shop games that tell a path story with very little variance....... How can this be disputed ?...... It's as clear as black and white. 

    I'll not go into definition's here, but millions of people want a deeper social community game and they consider that an mmorpg..... And to that, they're are none, even the classics turned.       
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,486
    adam_nox said:
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
    There are so many personal feeling and opinions stated as facts in this post I don't even know where to start... can someone help me out? ;)

    "Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead" - the consensus of WHO? Yours? A few self proclaimed "old schoolers" and some trolls here on this forum?

    "What game of quality or new population has arisen?" - GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, TSW, Archeage, Neverwinter,Wildstar...

    "I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west." - You can't dismiss that game just because of some "feeling" of yours. The game has a solid player base, no matter how much you dislike it (and I don't like that game either).

    "WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos" - WoW was acclaimed by both the industry and the players.

    "because of it's single player nature from 1-60" - You obviously haven't played Vanilla WoW, or WoW before cataclysm.

    "it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually." - close to 13 millions active accounts during WotLK, yeah, that alienation conspiration of yours worked just fine... for Blizzard.

    My opinion? You should go out more. Go out of this forum, and realize that the world isn't limited to what a few disgruntled vets and/or trolls post here.

    I totally agree with adam_nox,

    It may not necessarily be dead, but the market changed to games that play as games-online.  It's a new crowed now and their not playing mmorpg's.  Sure not everyone........some people are diversified and can live with what we have now.  But millions are lost.

    And what we have now are simple, easy cash shop games that tell a path story with very little variance....... How can this be disputed ?...... It's as clear as black and white. 

    I'll not go into definition's here, but millions of people want a deeper social community game and they consider that an mmorpg..... And to that, they're are none, even the classics turned.       
    But I hope you don't agree with those points. JL Picard pretty much addressed those appropriately.
    Jean-Luc_Picard



  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,100
    Did Hearthstone and Overwatch cost as much as WoW to make and are they as profitable? I'm guessing both were much cheaper to make and are as profitable....There are just too many other avenues these companies can go down now....Like otehrs have said, even Blizzard decided not to go that route anymore with the scrapping of Titan.
    Sovrath
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,431
    1AD7 said:
    Loke666 said:
    1AD7 said:
    Pantheon is going to save the genre.  I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video but I'm assuming it's because the kick starter failed?  Either way, the game is alive and well.  It's currently in pre-alpha and the monthly newsletters have been getting better and better.  If you haven't checked it out yet, do yourself a favor and see what VR has been up to:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/
    You are putting a lot of preasure on it. It certainly seems good but it isn't really made to get millions of players, just to give us oldtimers something a bit more classic and maybe show a different side of MMOs to some newer players.

    At best it might point other devs in  a different direction then the genre been going since 2004 but it will never become the next Wow.

    Still, I am happy to get something with a bit more difficulty, I am tired of cookie-cutter MMOs.

    I don't think you need to become the next WoW to save the genre.  We just need an MMO "World" like we had back in the day, but with modernized graphics and gameplay.  If it points other devs in a different direction that could very well be the start of saving the genre.  =D
    To attract investors back to the genre, the genre needs a game with a large customer base that it maintains over a reasonable time-period.  Investors aren't backing new major projects because the player base isn't large enough, the retention rate is pretty anemic, and the development cost is so large.  The time between investment and return on that investment is generally 5+ years.  No one wants to invest $20 million on a product that will return $21 million in 7 years.  That's just too long for the investor to wait.  So, they pass on MMORPGs and invest in something safer.

    Pantheon isn't doing anything to address any of the concerns that investors have, particularly the development time.  By their own expectations, Pantheon isn't aiming for a large enough market to attract big money back to the genre.  Even if Pantheon somehow manages a 100% customer retention rate at the 6, 12 and 18 month hurdles, it will not be an industry trend, the anticipated player base will be insignificant to attract major investors.

    I've not seen any evidence that Pantheon is doing anything revolutionary from a development aspect.  There's no cutting edge development techniques being used here that future projects can leverage to develop a game in 3 years instead of 5.  Something that can trim the lead time will do more for attracting major investors than the lure of a million faithful customers.

    Pantheon may be a phenomenal game.  It just won't 'save the genre'.




    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    edited March 2018
    adam_nox said:
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
    There are so many personal feeling and opinions stated as facts in this post I don't even know where to start... can someone help me out? ;)

    "Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead" - the consensus of WHO? Yours? A few self proclaimed "old schoolers" and some trolls here on this forum?

    "What game of quality or new population has arisen?" - GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, TSW, Archeage, Neverwinter,Wildstar...

    "I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west." - You can't dismiss that game just because of some "feeling" of yours. The game has a solid player base, no matter how much you dislike it (and I don't like that game either).

    "WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos" - WoW was acclaimed by both the industry and the players.

    "because of it's single player nature from 1-60" - You obviously haven't played Vanilla WoW, or WoW before cataclysm.

    "it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually." - close to 13 millions active accounts during WotLK, yeah, that alienation conspiration of yours worked just fine... for Blizzard.

    My opinion? You should go out more. Go out of this forum, and realize that the world isn't limited to what a few disgruntled vets and/or trolls post here.

    I totally agree with adam_nox,

    It may not necessarily be dead, but the market changed to games that play as games-online.  It's a new crowed now and their not playing mmorpg's.  Sure not everyone........some people are diversified and can live with what we have now.  But millions are lost.

    And what we have now are simple, easy cash shop games that tell a path story with very little variance....... How can this be disputed ?...... It's as clear as black and white. 

    I'll not go into definition's here, but millions of people want a deeper social community game and they consider that an mmorpg..... And to that, they're are none, even the classics turned.       
    If you agree with his points, then that makes both him and you full of it. No problem for me, it's not really a surprise, you always try to make your opinion pass as a fact and you also always conveniently ignore the counter arguments that could threaten your fragile position. That's why you completely ignored my answers and just posted more personal opinion bullshit presented as facts.

    Nothing new under the sun.

    Now address my rebuttals to his points, and then we can start talking. But don't worry, i'm not holding my breath.
    delete5230
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,957
    edited March 2018
    adam_nox said:
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
    There are so many personal feeling and opinions stated as facts in this post I don't even know where to start... can someone help me out? ;)

    "Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead" - the consensus of WHO? Yours? A few self proclaimed "old schoolers" and some trolls here on this forum?

    "What game of quality or new population has arisen?" - GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, TSW, Archeage, Neverwinter,Wildstar...

    "I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west." - You can't dismiss that game just because of some "feeling" of yours. The game has a solid player base, no matter how much you dislike it (and I don't like that game either).

    "WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos" - WoW was acclaimed by both the industry and the players.

    "because of it's single player nature from 1-60" - You obviously haven't played Vanilla WoW, or WoW before cataclysm.

    "it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually." - close to 13 millions active accounts during WotLK, yeah, that alienation conspiration of yours worked just fine... for Blizzard.

    My opinion? You should go out more. Go out of this forum, and realize that the world isn't limited to what a few disgruntled vets and/or trolls post here.

    I totally agree with adam_nox,

    It may not necessarily be dead, but the market changed to games that play as games-online.  It's a new crowed now and their not playing mmorpg's.  Sure not everyone........some people are diversified and can live with what we have now.  But millions are lost.

    And what we have now are simple, easy cash shop games that tell a path story with very little variance....... How can this be disputed ?...... It's as clear as black and white. 

    I'll not go into definition's here, but millions of people want a deeper social community game and they consider that an mmorpg..... And to that, they're are none, even the classics turned.       
    If you agree with his points, then that makes both him and you full of it. No problem for me, it's not really a surprise, you always try to make your opinion pass as a fact and you also always conveniently ignore the counter arguments that could threaten your fragile position. That's why you completely ignored my answers and just posted more personal opinion bullshit presented as facts.

    Nothing new under the sun.

    Now address my rebuttals to his points, and then we can start talking. But don't worry, i'm not holding my breath.

    You don't agree with millions are lost ?....... Millions ! 

    Last year when it was easer to make polls here on mmorpg.com, many polls were conducted, yes some of them by me (not that it matters who anyway).

    In every case OVERWHELMING response that people didn't like the direction mmorpgs were going.
    Why is this ignored ?....... Several heavy posters just brush this off and forget the results.  

    You clam that I say my opinions are facts...... Well, guess what !...... They are according to the polls. 

    *Marketing polls are biased to sell cheaper products* 
    *People buy every game that's advertised*



    I clam: 
    - People don't like cash shops, many don't like $15 a month that's true, but they "defiantly" don't like cash shops, they're hated...... Middle ground ?...... None of us could answer that. 

    - People don't like scripted, path game play and EASY.  

    - Millions gave up and are gone from this site, it's a new crowd with a few that like both. 

    - This site is slowing down mmorpg's are dying.




    Don't believe me ?.......Run another poll. But lets not forget, millions are not here to vote !

    STOP IGNORING THIS !
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,919
    adam_nox said:
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
    There are so many personal feeling and opinions stated as facts in this post I don't even know where to start... can someone help me out? ;)

    "Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead" - the consensus of WHO? Yours? A few self proclaimed "old schoolers" and some trolls here on this forum?

    "What game of quality or new population has arisen?" - GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, TSW, Archeage, Neverwinter,Wildstar...

    "I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west." - You can't dismiss that game just because of some "feeling" of yours. The game has a solid player base, no matter how much you dislike it (and I don't like that game either).

    "WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos" - WoW was acclaimed by both the industry and the players.

    "because of it's single player nature from 1-60" - You obviously haven't played Vanilla WoW, or WoW before cataclysm.

    "it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually." - close to 13 millions active accounts during WotLK, yeah, that alienation conspiration of yours worked just fine... for Blizzard.

    My opinion? You should go out more. Go out of this forum, and realize that the world isn't limited to what a few disgruntled vets and/or trolls post here.

    I totally agree with adam_nox,

    It may not necessarily be dead, but the market changed to games that play as games-online.  It's a new crowed now and their not playing mmorpg's.  Sure not everyone........some people are diversified and can live with what we have now.  But millions are lost.

    And what we have now are simple, easy cash shop games that tell a path story with very little variance....... How can this be disputed ?...... It's as clear as black and white. 

    I'll not go into definition's here, but millions of people want a deeper social community game and they consider that an mmorpg..... And to that, they're are none, even the classics turned.       
    There is a "deeper  social community game " right out your front door and its free ..

      Best game going actually ...
  • syltmackasyltmacka Member UncommonPosts: 382
    seems to me that the ones that stray from the mmorpg path is not the players but the devolopers, easy cash is to blame there i guess.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,211
    Scorchien said:
    adam_nox said:
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
    There are so many personal feeling and opinions stated as facts in this post I don't even know where to start... can someone help me out? ;)

    "Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead" - the consensus of WHO? Yours? A few self proclaimed "old schoolers" and some trolls here on this forum?

    "What game of quality or new population has arisen?" - GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, TSW, Archeage, Neverwinter,Wildstar...

    "I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west." - You can't dismiss that game just because of some "feeling" of yours. The game has a solid player base, no matter how much you dislike it (and I don't like that game either).

    "WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos" - WoW was acclaimed by both the industry and the players.

    "because of it's single player nature from 1-60" - You obviously haven't played Vanilla WoW, or WoW before cataclysm.

    "it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually." - close to 13 millions active accounts during WotLK, yeah, that alienation conspiration of yours worked just fine... for Blizzard.

    My opinion? You should go out more. Go out of this forum, and realize that the world isn't limited to what a few disgruntled vets and/or trolls post here.

    I totally agree with adam_nox,

    It may not necessarily be dead, but the market changed to games that play as games-online.  It's a new crowed now and their not playing mmorpg's.  Sure not everyone........some people are diversified and can live with what we have now.  But millions are lost.

    And what we have now are simple, easy cash shop games that tell a path story with very little variance....... How can this be disputed ?...... It's as clear as black and white. 

    I'll not go into definition's here, but millions of people want a deeper social community game and they consider that an mmorpg..... And to that, they're are none, even the classics turned.       
    There is a "deeper  social community game " right out your front door and its free ..

      Best game going actually ...

    Knock, Knock!

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,211
    edited March 2018
    adam_nox said:
    All the comments claiming it isn't dead are strange to me.  Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead and what has come out since then?  What game of quality or new population has arisen?  ESO maybe?  I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west.  It's been dead for a decade, and worse than dead, it's been beaten and mutilated until people won't even agree that the old definition is the current one.  All sort of online games are now called mmos so it further dilutes the genre.

    Supply outpacing demand?  Are you being serious?  There's been no supply.  WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos because of it's single player nature from 1-60 and it's harsh limits on group sizes.  The old school hardcores loved it's endgame for the first few years though, while it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually.  It was a disaster for the genre, and yet nothing came out to challenge it except for cheap clones for years and years.

    The only hope we have right now is that so many franchises and developers of 'normal' games are going open-world while networking is becoming faster and more efficient, allowing for more players to interact in these open worlds.  Eventually there will be a revival of the mmo genre as it was truly meant to be, but it may not even be called mmorpgs because of the strange path it will take to get back to the 'good old days'. 
    There are so many personal feeling and opinions stated as facts in this post I don't even know where to start... can someone help me out? ;)

    "Over five years ago the consensus was that it was dead" - the consensus of WHO? Yours? A few self proclaimed "old schoolers" and some trolls here on this forum?

    "What game of quality or new population has arisen?" - GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, TSW, Archeage, Neverwinter,Wildstar...

    "I'm sorry, but FF14 is really freakin niche in the west." - You can't dismiss that game just because of some "feeling" of yours. The game has a solid player base, no matter how much you dislike it (and I don't like that game either).

    "WoW was decried as an abomination to real mmos" - WoW was acclaimed by both the industry and the players.

    "because of it's single player nature from 1-60" - You obviously haven't played Vanilla WoW, or WoW before cataclysm.

    "it alienated everyone who just wanted to group casually." - close to 13 millions active accounts during WotLK, yeah, that alienation conspiration of yours worked just fine... for Blizzard.

    My opinion? You should go out more. Go out of this forum, and realize that the world isn't limited to what a few disgruntled vets and/or trolls post here.

    I totally agree with adam_nox,

    It may not necessarily be dead, but the market changed to games that play as games-online.  It's a new crowed now and their not playing mmorpg's.  Sure not everyone........some people are diversified and can live with what we have now.  But millions are lost.

    And what we have now are simple, easy cash shop games that tell a path story with very little variance....... How can this be disputed ?...... It's as clear as black and white. 

    I'll not go into definition's here, but millions of people want a deeper social community game and they consider that an mmorpg..... And to that, they're are none, even the classics turned.       
    If you agree with his points, then that makes both him and you full of it. No problem for me, it's not really a surprise, you always try to make your opinion pass as a fact and you also always conveniently ignore the counter arguments that could threaten your fragile position. That's why you completely ignored my answers and just posted more personal opinion bullshit presented as facts.

    Nothing new under the sun.

    Now address my rebuttals to his points, and then we can start talking. But don't worry, i'm not holding my breath.

    You don't agree with millions are lost ?....... Millions ! 

    Last year when it was easer to make polls here on mmorpg.com, many polls were conducted, yes some of them by me (not that it matters who anyway).

    In every case OVERWHELMING response that people didn't like the direction mmorpgs were going.
    Why is this ignored ?....... Several heavy posters just brush this off and forget the results.  

    You clam that I say my opinions are facts...... Well, guess what !...... They are according to the polls. 

    *Marketing polls are biased to sell cheaper products* 
    *People buy every game that's advertised*



    I clam: 
    - People don't like cash shops, many don't like $15 a month that's true, but they "defiantly" don't like cash shops, they're hated...... Middle ground ?...... None of us could answer that. 

    - People don't like scripted, path game play and EASY.  

    - Millions gave up and are gone from this site, it's a new crowd with a few that like both. 

    - This site is slowing down mmorpg's are dying.




    Don't believe me ?.......Run another poll. But lets not forget, millions are not here to vote !

    STOP IGNORING THIS !

    MMOs have changed, but that answer hides a truth. MMOs keep changing, what replaced old school has not sat still, and what replaced new school does not seem to be to the liking of those who thought doing away with old school was a good thing.

    We are now in a gambling and P2W MMO world, but it won't stop here, it will get worse. I think Delete is right in that the genre is declining in terms of gamers. But they are being replaced by more and more "players", so the industry thrives.

    This is happening right across gaming, not just MMOs, so what's the difference between a gamer and a player? Well its a bit like the difference between the roleplayers who started MMOs and the gamers who replaced them, in my eyes they were and are less invested in the idea of a online world, somewhere to live when you got back from work.

    It not a hard set definition; I have been a roleplayer a gamer and even a player on the occasion. But regardless of what we did the new entrants overwhelmed any concerns we might have had.

    Another factor is social media which has hit this site in much the way it has hit every forum in the world and indeed it impacted negatively on guild communities and guild communication in my eyes.

    I am not sure Delete is right about what players want but I do know a genre thrives with diversity and originality, we don't have much of that so I would like to see his way tried more. Where I don't agree with him is that he seems to be saying this is the sole cause for why we have got to this stage, there are many issues which have led here.
    Post edited by Scot on

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

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