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Death of MMO genre - Nuff said ...

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  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Except by many people's definition it's not a sandbox.

    Its lacking feature "x", "y" or "z" which they feel are "requirements" for a game to be called a "true" sand box. 

    Or it isn't enough like game "abc" or game "def" which they believe set the "gold" standard 20 plus years ago.

    Fact is there is no more elusive gaming term to define than this one IMO.

    I always tell people I'll know a sand box game when I feel one, after that who can say?

    It is open world, and gives freedom to the players, how it is not sandbox?
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,486
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Except by many people's definition it's not a sandbox.

    Its lacking feature "x", "y" or "z" which they feel are "requirements" for a game to be called a "true" sand box. 

    Or it isn't enough like game "abc" or game "def" which they believe set the "gold" standard 20 plus years ago.

    Fact is there is no more elusive gaming term to define than this one IMO.

    I always tell people I'll know a sand box game when I feel one, after that who can say?
    I tried to play DEF. It wasn't for me...
    MendelRobsolf

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,854
    ikcin said:
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Except by many people's definition it's not a sandbox.

    Its lacking feature "x", "y" or "z" which they feel are "requirements" for a game to be called a "true" sand box. 

    Or it isn't enough like game "abc" or game "def" which they believe set the "gold" standard 20 plus years ago.

    Fact is there is no more elusive gaming term to define than this one IMO.

    I always tell people I'll know a sand box game when I feel one, after that who can say?

    It is open world, and gives freedom to the players, how it is not sandbox?

    Does it have an un-centralized economy?  Can you craft absolutely every piece of gear?  Do you lose all loot every time you die?  Can you change the world around you? 

    All of these are things that people consider "sandbox" and everyone's definition requires more of some and less of others.
  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Except by many people's definition it's not a sandbox.

    Its lacking feature "x", "y" or "z" which they feel are "requirements" for a game to be called a "true" sand box. 

    Or it isn't enough like game "abc" or game "def" which they believe set the "gold" standard 20 plus years ago.

    Fact is there is no more elusive gaming term to define than this one IMO.

    I always tell people I'll know a sand box game when I feel one, after that who can say?
    I tried to play DEF. It wasn't for me...
    Dude, you're lame!  DEF laid the groundwork for all the games that came after!

    Stupid ABC fanboi...
    AlBQuirkyKylerankitaradPhry
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Laetitian said:
    beebop500 said:
     We are overloaded with bad F2P games but that is as much a function of society's general lack of an attention span as anything else.

    You make it sounds like a bad thing. I don't see why the public needs to keep attention on games for the long term. We are talking about entertainment here. My attention span on a movie is 2-3 hours. My attention span on a novel is like 4-5 hours. My attention spent on a season of tv shows is like 20 hours (or 10-13 if we are talking about netflix stuff). Is there any reason why games are superior and should command more of my time?
     You are unnecessarily mixing up "time invested into entertainment" and "time required to finish a content". But I don't see why they would have to have anything to do with each other. If there was a 500-hour novel that would fascinate me without end, I would read it. In fact, I have been listening to the Aubrey&Maturin series for several years.




    My point is simply that i don't see society needs to have a long attention span for entertainment. 

    If a 500 hour-novel can naturally hold peoples' attention, so much the better. But at the same time, if most people decide they are not going to spend any game more than 15 min, it is their choice, and I don't see anything wrong. That is just a preference.

    The extended point is that entertainment is different from career, family and relationships that have a lot more give and take. You cannot quit your career because of a small thing you don't like .. because if you do, you are not likely to have a career. Ditto for a spouse. 

    But entertainment? They are so abundant and if I stop playing game A for whatever reason, there is always a game B. If I decide not to finish novel C, there is always a novel D. There is no reason to be patient (not that you cannot choose to) or tolerant of anything I do not like, and I can use entertainment anyway i want so it entertains me best.


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772

    LoL isn't an mmo, not the topic at hand.
    It is the topic at hand.. it caused the death of the MMO genre .. or better yet, it assimiliates MMOs. 
  • Cybersig211Cybersig211 Member UncommonPosts: 128
    edited March 2018
    Traditional MMORPG's are as dead as dead can be.  You have a few fledgling indy games, most wont reach a level of quality that 2008 had in games, if they can make it and survive.  No AAA developer will touch mmorpg, given how expensive they are to run and maintain vs the population that will play them long term these days..

    Sure bits and pieces have move on to other game types.

    The longer ive gone void of mmorpgs the less i miss them.  From how the communities evolved and tore apart anything good, to the boring as hell mandatory progression with no purpose (and i love progression) right up to the stale endgame and pvp.

    Id rather buy a great single player RPG with a great story and narration, a co-op dungeon crawler, and play overwatch for pvp than slog through farms helping lazy farmers and dealing with raid group tyranny.

    MMORPGs were great as online gaming became a new thing, but at their heart most mmorpgs were just a shallow cobbling of mini games tied together with incredibly boring busywork.

    Im sure we will get future indy games capable of surviving on a spartan community, but i dont think we will ever see a massive AAA mmorpg offering again.  Too many investors learned the hard way.  Much less money spent on other games can yield much more income without all the baggage mmorpgs had.

    Sure id kill for a few older or dead mmorpgs to come back to live with modern tech, but even then, communities that those older games have are ancient times and can never be recreated.  Really the thing i miss most about the 1999-2010 mmorpg golden age was the communities and chatting it up in global or clan chat, and really past 2008 thing quickly devolved on that aspect.

    Sure i burned out i guess and nothing changed with mmorpgs despite the over use of the term "innovation"  they easily could have been more than they were but everyone was stuck chasing wow...which if i could do it all over again id play wow, for all the hate it gets it was the high water mark on the mmorpg golden age, and its still ticking and improving.  My only regret was never being able to get into it despite trying three times as hard as i could to get into it.  I mean its depressing to try to go back to something like anarchy online and its 100% dead, or other games where you cant because they got shut down.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,532
    There is no death of,it just looks bad because the market has been flooded with so many wannabe Indie developers.
    If we simply take the top 6/7/8 mmorpg's ,things still look at least hopeful,promising.

    It seems to be way too easy to make a crappy game and that is what has happened across ALL genres.Toss in a completely meaningless world,some mobs,a couple models,few tattoos and hair colors,call it a mmorpg.

    I have not seen ANY effort put into the "GAME aspect",in TCG's,ARPGs',MOBA's,Survival games,all of those developers should be deleted from ever making games,their efforts  have been less than Indie,i call them AMATEUR efforts.
    BORED,extremely bored people are allowing all those crappy games to survive and  continue to bring us more and until people start waiting for quality,these trashy amateur designs wil keep coming.

    Also making it bad for the future of gaming,is that for a LOT of people,this is all they have grown up on,so they THINK these are decent games,it's all they know.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,593
    I wouldn't say mmo genre is dead, but its definitely in a sad state. I mean half the current "homeless" mmo players are excited for Bless, which has already failed twice in the eastern market. Maybe I'm wrong, but most games that have started (key word here) and failed in the east dont find much success in the western market either. Of course many mmos that started in the west tend to not do so well in the east (FFXIV, GW2, etc)
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,281
    Albatroes said:
    I wouldn't say mmo genre is dead, but its definitely in a sad state. I mean half the current "homeless" mmo players are excited for Bless, which has already failed twice in the eastern market. Maybe I'm wrong, but most games that have started (key word here) and failed in the east dont find much success in the western market either. Of course many mmos that started in the west tend to not do so well in the east (FFXIV, GW2, etc)
    This genre is so dead I'm playing Runescape 3......and sort of liking it.....

    Stranger Days it seems.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,580
    edited March 2018
    There are at least two AAA MMOs coming out this year, not sure what the hub bub is all about. Sure, we have not had a AAA MMO since Black Desert pretty much, but they still come out. Maybe Activision / EA / Ubisoft are not making them, but....do we really want an MMO from one of those companies at this point with all the MTX bullshit? 

    What we are unlikely to see again is MMOs that cater to players who want to just play one MMO forever. I think those days are gone. There are simply too many good games now to spend time investing years into one. It is the reason we see so much "Season" type content in games that are popular and content patch cycles that are built around a surge of players returning briefly rather then forever. 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,878
    Celcius said:
    There are at least two AAA MMOs coming out this year, not sure what the hub bub is all about. Sure, we have not had a AAA MMO since Black Desert pretty much, but they still come out. Maybe Activision / EA / Ubisoft are not making them, but....do we really want an MMO from one of those companies at this point with all the MTX bullshit? 

    What we are unlikely to see again is MMOs that cater to players who want to just play one MMO forever. I think those days are gone. There are simply too many good games now to spend time investing years into one. It is the reason we see so much "Season" type content in games that are popular and content patch cycles that are built around a surge of players returning briefly rather then forever. 

    This here is a good example of a non-mmorpg player, 

    - MMOs are meant to play forever.  If you were an MMO player you would be thinking less on fun action packed gaming that holds attention for several weeks and more about community games.
    - What Triple A MMOs are coming out this year that are real mmos ?
    - Black Desert is not a Triple A MMO, its an Asian cash shop grinder that infiltrated our financial defense's. 
    - At least three real mmorpgs are in the making, unfortunately they are a few years away. I know why you haven't noticed them...Because they're not F2P ! 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Albatroes said:
    I wouldn't say mmo genre is dead, but its definitely in a sad state. I mean half the current "homeless" mmo players are excited for Bless, which has already failed twice in the eastern market. Maybe I'm wrong, but most games that have started (key word here) and failed in the east dont find much success in the western market either. Of course many mmos that started in the west tend to not do so well in the east (FFXIV, GW2, etc)
    I wouldn't really call Japan a western country, it certainly have plenty of western influence but it also have tons of eastern. They are somewhat closer to us gaming wise then South Korea or China but still...

    And GW2s sales in China were acceptable, not great but not bad either. Wow is basically the only western MMO that really made an impact in China and I am not sure comparing the other western MMOs with Wow is very productive.

    In any case, Europe, America and Australia have a different taste then China, South Korea and the Philipines. Japan is doing their own thing, sometimes their games are successful in one or both the other regions, sometimes not.

    A really good game can be succcessful everywhere and sometimes does a game better in another region then it's home region, it might be that Bless is made the way it works better somewhere else or it might just be bad and not work anywhere, hard to say.

    We surely could use a couple of successful MMOs about now showing investors that the genre still could generate money in the west.
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,580
    edited March 2018
    Celcius said:
    There are at least two AAA MMOs coming out this year, not sure what the hub bub is all about. Sure, we have not had a AAA MMO since Black Desert pretty much, but they still come out. Maybe Activision / EA / Ubisoft are not making them, but....do we really want an MMO from one of those companies at this point with all the MTX bullshit? 

    What we are unlikely to see again is MMOs that cater to players who want to just play one MMO forever. I think those days are gone. There are simply too many good games now to spend time investing years into one. It is the reason we see so much "Season" type content in games that are popular and content patch cycles that are built around a surge of players returning briefly rather then forever. 

    This here is a good example of a non-mmorpg player, 

    - MMOs are meant to play forever.  If you were an MMO player you would be thinking less on fun action packed gaming that holds attention for several weeks and more about community games.
    - What Triple A MMOs are coming out this year that are real mmos ?
    - Black Desert is not a Triple A MMO, its an Asian cash shop grinder that infiltrated our financial defense's. 
    - At least three real mmorpgs are in the making, unfortunately they are a few years away. I know why you haven't noticed them...Because they're not F2P ! 
    Disregarding whether or not you deem me worthy of being an MMO player, as that is irrelevant to my point, Tripple A MMOs are games that have a publisher and are not independently funded / crowd funded. By that logic, if you do a little bit of research, you can find a couple. Black Desert is certainly a Tripple A MMO as it certainly fits this criteria. You clearly don't like it, but that is okay. I never said that they had to be good games, in your opinion, to qualify. 

    Not really sure what F2P has to do with anything regarding my argument, so dismissing that as irrelevant as well. 
  • DrDread74DrDread74 Member UncommonPosts: 308
    Monster hunter World seems popular


    http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/
     An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
  • 1AD71AD7 Member UncommonPosts: 50
    Pantheon is going to save the genre.  I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video but I'm assuming it's because the kick starter failed?  Either way, the game is alive and well.  It's currently in pre-alpha and the monthly newsletters have been getting better and better.  If you haven't checked it out yet, do yourself a favor and see what VR has been up to:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/
    BruceYee
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    1AD7 said:
    Pantheon is going to save the genre.  I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video but I'm assuming it's because the kick starter failed?  Either way, the game is alive and well.  It's currently in pre-alpha and the monthly newsletters have been getting better and better.  If you haven't checked it out yet, do yourself a favor and see what VR has been up to:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/
    You are putting a lot of preasure on it. It certainly seems good but it isn't really made to get millions of players, just to give us oldtimers something a bit more classic and maybe show a different side of MMOs to some newer players.

    At best it might point other devs in  a different direction then the genre been going since 2004 but it will never become the next Wow.

    Still, I am happy to get something with a bit more difficulty, I am tired of cookie-cutter MMOs.
    AlBQuirkydelete5230Mendel
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,580
    DrDread74 said:
    Monster hunter World seems popular

    Just want to point out that MHW is not an MMO. 
    BruceYee
  • 1AD71AD7 Member UncommonPosts: 50
    Loke666 said:
    1AD7 said:
    Pantheon is going to save the genre.  I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video but I'm assuming it's because the kick starter failed?  Either way, the game is alive and well.  It's currently in pre-alpha and the monthly newsletters have been getting better and better.  If you haven't checked it out yet, do yourself a favor and see what VR has been up to:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/
    You are putting a lot of preasure on it. It certainly seems good but it isn't really made to get millions of players, just to give us oldtimers something a bit more classic and maybe show a different side of MMOs to some newer players.

    At best it might point other devs in  a different direction then the genre been going since 2004 but it will never become the next Wow.

    Still, I am happy to get something with a bit more difficulty, I am tired of cookie-cutter MMOs.

    I don't think you need to become the next WoW to save the genre.  We just need an MMO "World" like we had back in the day, but with modernized graphics and gameplay.  If it points other devs in a different direction that could very well be the start of saving the genre.  =D
    delete5230
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,532
    Next Wow,that game is total amateur trash game design,i could write a book on all of it's failed design ideas.
    I am not guaranteeing i will be playing Pantheon,but i for sure as hell know,it will be a better design than Wow.
    We know Pantheon right out of the gate will look MUCH better.Wow literally for years had NO lighting,just a global lighting,gear,items,objects NO lighting.Models very low end with pathetic customization options.
    I can look past really bad graphics IF i get into the game and the character has some depth in design,combat has some depth and not just grab any weapon and swing away while spamming icon 1-2 until you get some more.

    Also just like all the cheap Asian MMORPG's ,Wow copied in that do 1 ,yep ONE quest and your level 2,simply magical,i sure felt like i earned that level.NO WAY can Pantheon be that pathetic with it's design.
    So imo to the person looking for a better mmorpg to play,Pantheon will NOT be that hand holding,linear pathetic Wow clone,we should get better looking world,better characters/depth  and better mobs and better combat.

    IMO it is only a matter of Pantheon doesn't do too much that really turns me off,like i do NOT want to see any silly somersaults,or content segregated by a need for a RAID.I want to see a REASONABLE game,maybe a group of 5-6 is good enough,some resistances to elements and weapon types and varied aggro properties,not just proximity.
    BruceYeedelete5230

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,137
    1AD7 said:
    Loke666 said:
    1AD7 said:
    Pantheon is going to save the genre.  I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video but I'm assuming it's because the kick starter failed?  Either way, the game is alive and well.  It's currently in pre-alpha and the monthly newsletters have been getting better and better.  If you haven't checked it out yet, do yourself a favor and see what VR has been up to:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/
    You are putting a lot of preasure on it. It certainly seems good but it isn't really made to get millions of players, just to give us oldtimers something a bit more classic and maybe show a different side of MMOs to some newer players.

    At best it might point other devs in  a different direction then the genre been going since 2004 but it will never become the next Wow.

    Still, I am happy to get something with a bit more difficulty, I am tired of cookie-cutter MMOs.

    I don't think you need to become the next WoW to save the genre.  We just need an MMO "World" like we had back in the day, but with modernized graphics and gameplay.  If it points other devs in a different direction that could very well be the start of saving the genre.  =D
    If you want other devs to take notice then you need WoW's financial success back when it took hold of the market and got every dev interested in cashing in.
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 856
    edited March 2018
    FFXIV, WoW, ESO, GW2... MMOs are far from 'dead', it's just that there is a lot more competition now (i.e. you no longer need an MMO if all you want is to play in a persistant world and / or with friends) and 'AAA' devs have realised it's a lot harder to make an MMO cash-cow than they first thought (i.e. when WoW released) and would rather pump out the latest lootbox driven cash-grab instead.

    Also, the last thing the MMO genre needs is another WoW (edit: and endless clones); much better to have a range of successful games, all offering something a bit different and expanding in different ways.
  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    no, mmo is immortal being.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    1AD7 said:

    I don't think you need to become the next WoW to save the genre.  We just need an MMO "World" like we had back in the day, but with modernized graphics and gameplay.  If it points other devs in a different direction that could very well be the start of saving the genre.  =D
    I guess that depends on how you define "saving". If you mean put the genre back where it was back in 1999 then that is possible. If you mean where it was in 2005 that just ain't going to happen.

    In any case I hope it does well, we need a good game with more difficulty and co-operation badly now.
    I am just saying that you probably should be careful overhyping it, I don't think the average fan of modern MMOs will like it since that isn't what it is going for. If some of them like it, fine, but it really cateers more to oldschool MMOers who really doesn't have much to play anymore.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    ikcin said:
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Except by many people's definition it's not a sandbox.

    Its lacking feature "x", "y" or "z" which they feel are "requirements" for a game to be called a "true" sand box. 

    Or it isn't enough like game "abc" or game "def" which they believe set the "gold" standard 20 plus years ago.

    Fact is there is no more elusive gaming term to define than this one IMO.

    I always tell people I'll know a sand box game when I feel one, after that who can say?

    It is open world, and gives freedom to the players, how it is not sandbox?

    Does it have an un-centralized economy?  Can you craft absolutely every piece of gear?  Do you lose all loot every time you die?  Can you change the world around you? 

    All of these are things that people consider "sandbox" and everyone's definition requires more of some and less of others.

    Yes, no - and you should not - like the real life, there is separation in the professions, no, but there is a loot, yes, you can change the world for the other players, as it is open. You should make a difference between sandbox MMO and sandbox solo RPG - two very different things. For example BDO could be called sandbox if it was a singleplayer game. But as a MMO it is completely themepark.
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