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Death of MMO genre - Nuff said ...

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  • darkrain21darkrain21 Member UncommonPosts: 382
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW clones and the "wow cloning era" are dead. Even WoW is slowly fading, losing players faster and faster a few months after new expansion. But there is still space for MMOs, but not themeparks

    Theme parks are doing fine, as a matter of fact the 2 big ones are still more active than even the most popular Sandbox. FFXIV is still going up in player subs and wow is steady with consistent surges in the population. If you can name 1 Sandbox with the player base and popularity of ether of these two games, then you might have an argument.
    Lineage 1/Lineage M still is the biggest grossing MMO after WoW, FFXIV don't come even close.

    It made over 950 million dollars in revenue in 2017.

    People in America or Europe actually play FFXIV or ESO.  Almost no one play lineage in America or Europe.  So you are referencing a game no one on this forum care about.  And I don't even know lineage is a sandbox game.  Never heard of people referring it as a sandbox game.  
    The online revenue from asian markets are already bigger than the west. Closing your eyes and refusing to see it won't change reality.

    Lineage is an "open" MMO not exactly a sandbox, with the open world as the main focus of the game, there are very few intances that usually have a timer in which you can enter it again (usually 24h hours to 1 week).

    90% of the content of the game as well as the pvp happens in the open world.

    None of that makes it a sandbox, its an open world themepark. Also you tell him to not close his eyes to it but you are doing the same in allowing Profit to garner what you think is popular. Linage could have 3 people who spend 3 million a year in it doesn't mean it is more popular than the other games just means it caters to spenders.
    Popularity and revenue always walk together. LoL has the biggest revenues among all PC games because it has over 100 million players.
    LoL isn't an mmo, not the topic at hand.
    It doesn't change the fact that popularity = revenue, Lineage M is currently the most popular MMO in Korea and Taiwan (the only 2 places it is available so far).

    And by far one of the least cared about here in the west. It is not also a argument to my original point as it is not a sandbox mmo.
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited February 2018
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW clones and the "wow cloning era" are dead. Even WoW is slowly fading, losing players faster and faster a few months after new expansion. But there is still space for MMOs, but not themeparks

    Theme parks are doing fine, as a matter of fact the 2 big ones are still more active than even the most popular Sandbox. FFXIV is still going up in player subs and wow is steady with consistent surges in the population. If you can name 1 Sandbox with the player base and popularity of ether of these two games, then you might have an argument.
    Lineage 1/Lineage M still is the biggest grossing MMO after WoW, FFXIV don't come even close.

    It made over 950 million dollars in revenue in 2017.

    People in America or Europe actually play FFXIV or ESO.  Almost no one play lineage in America or Europe.  So you are referencing a game no one on this forum care about.  And I don't even know lineage is a sandbox game.  Never heard of people referring it as a sandbox game.  
    The online revenue from asian markets are already bigger than the west. Closing your eyes and refusing to see it won't change reality.

    Lineage is an "open" MMO not exactly a sandbox, with the open world as the main focus of the game, there are very few intances that usually have a timer in which you can enter it again (usually 24h hours to 1 week).

    90% of the content of the game as well as the pvp happens in the open world.

    None of that makes it a sandbox, its an open world themepark. Also you tell him to not close his eyes to it but you are doing the same in allowing Profit to garner what you think is popular. Linage could have 3 people who spend 3 million a year in it doesn't mean it is more popular than the other games just means it caters to spenders.
    Popularity and revenue always walk together. LoL has the biggest revenues among all PC games because it has over 100 million players.
    LoL isn't an mmo, not the topic at hand.
    It doesn't change the fact that popularity = revenue, Lineage M is currently the most popular MMO in Korea and Taiwan (the only 2 places it is available so far).

    And by far one of the least cared about here in the west. It is not also a argument to my original point as it is not a sandbox mmo.
    It still bigger than any MMO in west except WoW. It's an open game, not a themepark focused on intanced end-game raids/arenas, this is why i cited it. One of the few MMOs that still is successful that is not a themepark.
    sumdumguy1
  • darkrain21darkrain21 Member UncommonPosts: 382
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW clones and the "wow cloning era" are dead. Even WoW is slowly fading, losing players faster and faster a few months after new expansion. But there is still space for MMOs, but not themeparks

    Theme parks are doing fine, as a matter of fact the 2 big ones are still more active than even the most popular Sandbox. FFXIV is still going up in player subs and wow is steady with consistent surges in the population. If you can name 1 Sandbox with the player base and popularity of ether of these two games, then you might have an argument.
    Lineage 1/Lineage M still is the biggest grossing MMO after WoW, FFXIV don't come even close.

    It made over 950 million dollars in revenue in 2017.

    People in America or Europe actually play FFXIV or ESO.  Almost no one play lineage in America or Europe.  So you are referencing a game no one on this forum care about.  And I don't even know lineage is a sandbox game.  Never heard of people referring it as a sandbox game.  
    The online revenue from asian markets are already bigger than the west. Closing your eyes and refusing to see it won't change reality.

    Lineage is an "open" MMO not exactly a sandbox, with the open world as the main focus of the game, there are very few intances that usually have a timer in which you can enter it again (usually 24h hours to 1 week).

    90% of the content of the game as well as the pvp happens in the open world.

    None of that makes it a sandbox, its an open world themepark. Also you tell him to not close his eyes to it but you are doing the same in allowing Profit to garner what you think is popular. Linage could have 3 people who spend 3 million a year in it doesn't mean it is more popular than the other games just means it caters to spenders.
    Popularity and revenue always walk together. LoL has the biggest revenues among all PC games because it has over 100 million players.
    LoL isn't an mmo, not the topic at hand.
    It doesn't change the fact that popularity = revenue, Lineage M is currently the most popular MMO in Korea and Taiwan (the only 2 places it is available so far).

    And by far one of the least cared about here in the west. It is not also a argument to my original point as it is not a sandbox mmo.
    It still bigger than any MMO in west except WoW. It's an open game, not a themepark focused on intanced end-game raids/arenas, this is why i cited it. One of the few MMOs that still is successful that is not a themepark.
    But it is a themepark it's just not as much a directed attraction one as wow or ffxiv, it's not a sandbox and if it was more popular NCsoft wouldnt have reservations on bringing it west. They know that things like wow and ffxiv do better over here there for they never risk it.
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW clones and the "wow cloning era" are dead. Even WoW is slowly fading, losing players faster and faster a few months after new expansion. But there is still space for MMOs, but not themeparks

    Theme parks are doing fine, as a matter of fact the 2 big ones are still more active than even the most popular Sandbox. FFXIV is still going up in player subs and wow is steady with consistent surges in the population. If you can name 1 Sandbox with the player base and popularity of ether of these two games, then you might have an argument.
    Lineage 1/Lineage M still is the biggest grossing MMO after WoW, FFXIV don't come even close.

    It made over 950 million dollars in revenue in 2017.

    People in America or Europe actually play FFXIV or ESO.  Almost no one play lineage in America or Europe.  So you are referencing a game no one on this forum care about.  And I don't even know lineage is a sandbox game.  Never heard of people referring it as a sandbox game.  
    The online revenue from asian markets are already bigger than the west. Closing your eyes and refusing to see it won't change reality.

    Lineage is an "open" MMO not exactly a sandbox, with the open world as the main focus of the game, there are very few intances that usually have a timer in which you can enter it again (usually 24h hours to 1 week).

    90% of the content of the game as well as the pvp happens in the open world.

    None of that makes it a sandbox, its an open world themepark. Also you tell him to not close his eyes to it but you are doing the same in allowing Profit to garner what you think is popular. Linage could have 3 people who spend 3 million a year in it doesn't mean it is more popular than the other games just means it caters to spenders.
    Popularity and revenue always walk together. LoL has the biggest revenues among all PC games because it has over 100 million players.
    LoL isn't an mmo, not the topic at hand.
    It doesn't change the fact that popularity = revenue, Lineage M is currently the most popular MMO in Korea and Taiwan (the only 2 places it is available so far).

    And by far one of the least cared about here in the west. It is not also a argument to my original point as it is not a sandbox mmo.
    It still bigger than any MMO in west except WoW. It's an open game, not a themepark focused on intanced end-game raids/arenas, this is why i cited it. One of the few MMOs that still is successful that is not a themepark.
    But it is a themepark it's just not as much a directed attraction one as wow or ffxiv, it's not a sandbox and if it was more popular NCsoft wouldnt have reservations on bringing it west. They know that things like wow and ffxiv do better over here there for they never risk it.
    You need to check what makes a game a themepark.
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited February 2018
    WoW is slowly falling the superdata top 10 PC games rank, years ago it was easily in the top 5, now it is on 7th and falling.


  • darkrain21darkrain21 Member UncommonPosts: 382
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW is slowly falling the superdata top 10 PC games rank, years ago it was easily in the top 5, now it is on 7th and falling.


    And yet again you are comparing wow vs other genres. And as for what a theme park is, it is a linear progressive mmo in which the player is guided to activities via a narrative or leveling system with pre-exsisting activities that where created for the sole purpose of the gamer completing them. It is not a theme park simply because there is raiding and instanced dungeons. An open world can be a theme park as well. With certain activities being blocked until the player progresses to them, but in the end the player had little to no impact on the actual world of the game. I.E Themeparks. Sandbox is an open source world in which the player through their actions in game shape and change the game world around them. Of which lineage does not do. Lineage is an open world PvP themepark.
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited February 2018
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW is slowly falling the superdata top 10 PC games rank, years ago it was easily in the top 5, now it is on 7th and falling.


    And yet again you are comparing wow vs other genres. And as for what a theme park is, it is a linear progressive mmo in which the player is guided to activities via a narrative or leveling system with pre-exsisting activities that where created for the sole purpose of the gamer completing them. It is not a theme park simply because there is raiding and instanced dungeons. An open world can be a theme park as well. With certain activities being blocked until the player progresses to them, but in the end the player had little to no impact on the actual world of the game. I.E Themeparks. Sandbox is an open source world in which the player through their actions in game shape and change the game world around them. Of which lineage does not do. Lineage is an open world PvP themepark.
    Lineage offers some small world control through castle sieges. The clan that manages to take control of the castle of a region will own the taxes collected through the commerce in that region until another clan throws them out of the throne.

    It's an open game not theme park nor sandbox. But has a little of both.
    Post edited by Kabulozo on
  • darkrain21darkrain21 Member UncommonPosts: 382
    edited February 2018
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW is slowly falling the superdata top 10 PC games rank, years ago it was easily in the top 5, now it is on 7th and falling.


    And yet again you are comparing wow vs other genres. And as for what a theme park is, it is a linear progressive mmo in which the player is guided to activities via a narrative or leveling system with pre-exsisting activities that where created for the sole purpose of the gamer completing them. It is not a theme park simply because there is raiding and instanced dungeons. An open world can be a theme park as well. With certain activities being blocked until the player progresses to them, but in the end the player had little to no impact on the actual world of the game. I.E Themeparks. Sandbox is an open source world in which the player through their actions in game shape and change the game world around them. Of which lineage does not do. Lineage is an open world PvP themepark.
    Lineage offers some small world control through castle sieges. The clan that manages to take control of the castle of a region will own the taxes collected through the commerce in that region until another clan throws them out of the throne.

    It's an open game not theme park nor sandbox. But has a little of both.
    That is a Theme park element to a basic gvg PvP system. It's defined in a linear way. With that you could also say guild wars 2 and Tera are "open" games. Like it or not lineage is a PvP Theme park.
    Kyleran
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited February 2018
    darkrain21 said: 
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW is slowly falling the superdata top 10 PC games rank, years ago it was easily in the top 5, now it is on 7th and falling.


    And yet again you are comparing wow vs other genres. And as for what a theme park is, it is a linear progressive mmo in which the player is guided to activities via a narrative or leveling system with pre-exsisting activities that where created for the sole purpose of the gamer completing them. It is not a theme park simply because there is raiding and instanced dungeons. An open world can be a theme park as well. With certain activities being blocked until the player progresses to them, but in the end the player had little to no impact on the actual world of the game. I.E Themeparks. Sandbox is an open source world in which the player through their actions in game shape and change the game world around them. Of which lineage does not do. Lineage is an open world PvP themepark.
    Lineage offers some small world control through castle sieges. The clan that manages to take control of the castle of a region will own the taxes collected through the commerce in that region until another clan throws them out of the throne.

    It's an open game not theme park nor sandbox. But has a little of both.
    That is a Theme park element to a basic gvg PvP system. It's defined in a linear way. With that you could also say guild wars 2 and Tera are "open" games. Like it or not lineage is a PvP Theme park.
    Except pvp in gw2 happens in a intanced zone, pvp/pk in lineage happens anywhere outside towns. The moment you put your head outside a town to farm, you can be killed by anyone.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,135
    Kabulozo said:
    It still bigger than any MMO in west except WoW. It's an open game, not a themepark focused on intanced end-game raids/arenas, this is why i cited it. One of the few MMOs that still is successful that is not a themepark.
    I thought lineage do so bad in the west it get shutdown.  So it shows games popular in one region won't necessary be successful if localized in another region.

    Kyleran
  • darkrain21darkrain21 Member UncommonPosts: 382
    Kabulozo said:
    darkrain21 said: 
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW is slowly falling the superdata top 10 PC games rank, years ago it was easily in the top 5, now it is on 7th and falling.


    And yet again you are comparing wow vs other genres. And as for what a theme park is, it is a linear progressive mmo in which the player is guided to activities via a narrative or leveling system with pre-exsisting activities that where created for the sole purpose of the gamer completing them. It is not a theme park simply because there is raiding and instanced dungeons. An open world can be a theme park as well. With certain activities being blocked until the player progresses to them, but in the end the player had little to no impact on the actual world of the game. I.E Themeparks. Sandbox is an open source world in which the player through their actions in game shape and change the game world around them. Of which lineage does not do. Lineage is an open world PvP themepark.
    Lineage offers some small world control through castle sieges. The clan that manages to take control of the castle of a region will own the taxes collected through the commerce in that region until another clan throws them out of the throne.

    It's an open game not theme park nor sandbox. But has a little of both.
    That is a Theme park element to a basic gvg PvP system. It's defined in a linear way. With that you could also say guild wars 2 and Tera are "open" games. Like it or not lineage is a PvP Theme park.
    Except pvp in gw2 happens in a intanced zone, pvp/pk in lineage happens anywhere outside towns. The moment you put your head outside a town to farm, you can be killed by anyone.
    Ok so wow is an open world game just like lineage as in PvP SERVERS you can walk out of town to pick flowers and then die to PK. Tera you flag yourself boom PK, DCUO go to PvP shard boom PK. World PvP is not what dictates if a game is sandboxish or not.
    Kyleran
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited February 2018
    Kabulozo said:
    darkrain21 said: 
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW is slowly falling the superdata top 10 PC games rank, years ago it was easily in the top 5, now it is on 7th and falling.


    And yet again you are comparing wow vs other genres. And as for what a theme park is, it is a linear progressive mmo in which the player is guided to activities via a narrative or leveling system with pre-exsisting activities that where created for the sole purpose of the gamer completing them. It is not a theme park simply because there is raiding and instanced dungeons. An open world can be a theme park as well. With certain activities being blocked until the player progresses to them, but in the end the player had little to no impact on the actual world of the game. I.E Themeparks. Sandbox is an open source world in which the player through their actions in game shape and change the game world around them. Of which lineage does not do. Lineage is an open world PvP themepark.
    Lineage offers some small world control through castle sieges. The clan that manages to take control of the castle of a region will own the taxes collected through the commerce in that region until another clan throws them out of the throne.

    It's an open game not theme park nor sandbox. But has a little of both.
    That is a Theme park element to a basic gvg PvP system. It's defined in a linear way. With that you could also say guild wars 2 and Tera are "open" games. Like it or not lineage is a PvP Theme park.
    Except pvp in gw2 happens in a intanced zone, pvp/pk in lineage happens anywhere outside towns. The moment you put your head outside a town to farm, you can be killed by anyone.
    Ok so wow is an open world game just like lineage as in PvP SERVERS you can walk out of town to pick flowers and then die to PK. Tera you flag yourself boom PK, DCUO go to PvP shard boom PK. World PvP is not what dictates if a game is sandboxish or not.
    Except there is no consequence in any of them. In lineage you lose xp upon death, you can become pk, while in this state you can lose and drop inventory items if you die depending on how much karma you have accumulated. 
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,135
    So consequence of pvp make it a sandbox?  If wow start making people loss exp when they get ganked, it become a sandbox?
  • skadadskadad Member UncommonPosts: 382
    good midday entertainment this is! :) 

    Kyleran
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited February 2018
    AAAMEOW said:
    So consequence of pvp make it a sandbox?  If wow start making people loss exp when they get ganked, it become a sandbox?
    As i said and repeat, Lineage is a open world MMO with some few instances, it is not a sandbox nor a theme park, but has some elements of both. 

    It has levels and grind for levels/gear which is a themepark feature.
    It has a political system based on castle sieges which is a sandbox-inspired feature.
    Kyleran
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,135
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    So consequence of pvp make it a sandbox?  If wow start making people loss exp when they get ganked, it become a sandbox?
    As i said and repeat, Lineage is a open world MMO with some few instances, it is not a sandbox nor a theme park, but has some elements of both. 

    It has levels and grind for levels/gear which is a themepark feature.
    It has a political system based on castle sieges which is a sandbox-inspired feature.
    I think you somehow imply consequence of death is linked to being a sandbox.  If that is not what you mean, my mistake.  That is why I ask if you start losing exp or gear in wow does it make it a sandbox?
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited February 2018
    AAAMEOW said: I
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    So consequence of pvp make it a sandbox?  If wow start making people loss exp when they get ganked, it become a sandbox?
    As i said and repeat, Lineage is a open world MMO with some few instances, it is not a sandbox nor a theme park, but has some elements of both. 

    It has levels and grind for levels/gear which is a themepark feature.
    It has a political system based on castle sieges which is a sandbox-inspired feature.
    I think you somehow imply consequence of death is linked to being a sandbox.  If that is not what you mean, my mistake.  That is why I ask if you start losing exp or gear in wow does it make it a sandbox?
    In wow there is no real consequence in anything. Lineage has clan-controlled zones which give the owner of the castle economic advantage in that region.

    I never said Lineage is a sandbox nor a themepark but some mix between the two, a open world game with some elements of both.
    Post edited by Kabulozo on
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,135
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said: I
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    So consequence of pvp make it a sandbox?  If wow start making people loss exp when they get ganked, it become a sandbox?
    As i said and repeat, Lineage is a open world MMO with some few instances, it is not a sandbox nor a theme park, but has some elements of both. 

    It has levels and grind for levels/gear which is a themepark feature.
    It has a political system based on castle sieges which is a sandbox-inspired feature.
    I think you somehow imply consequence of death is linked to being a sandbox.  If that is not what you mean, my mistake.  That is why I ask if you start losing exp or gear in wow does it make it a sandbox?
    In wow there is no real consequence in anything. Lineage has clan-controlled zones which give the owner of the castle economic advantage in that region.

    I never said Lineage is a sandbox nor a themepark but some mix between the two, a open world game with some elements of both.
    I'm not going to argue about definition of sandbox.  I'm just wondering how consequence of death is linked to a game being sandbox or not.  

    I used to raid in Wow a long time ago, about 20 hours a week.  And even spending 20 hours a week doing just raid, our guild didn't get far.  I can't imagine how painful having death penalty would do to people who spend their entire time doing nothing but raid.  

    Harsh death penalty probably works for some type of games, but definitively not wow.  

  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited February 2018
    AAAMEOW said:
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said: I
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    So consequence of pvp make it a sandbox?  If wow start making people loss exp when they get ganked, it become a sandbox?
    As i said and repeat, Lineage is a open world MMO with some few instances, it is not a sandbox nor a theme park, but has some elements of both. 

    It has levels and grind for levels/gear which is a themepark feature.
    It has a political system based on castle sieges which is a sandbox-inspired feature.
    I think you somehow imply consequence of death is linked to being a sandbox.  If that is not what you mean, my mistake.  That is why I ask if you start losing exp or gear in wow does it make it a sandbox?
    In wow there is no real consequence in anything. Lineage has clan-controlled zones which give the owner of the castle economic advantage in that region.

    I never said Lineage is a sandbox nor a themepark but some mix between the two, a open world game with some elements of both.
    I'm not going to argue about definition of sandbox.  I'm just wondering how consequence of death is linked to a game being sandbox or not.  

    I used to raid in Wow a long time ago, about 20 hours a week.  And even spending 20 hours a week doing just raid, our guild didn't get far.  I can't imagine how painful having death penalty would do to people who spend their entire time doing nothing but raid.  

    Harsh death penalty probably works for some type of games, but definitively not wow.  

    A pvp/pk system as seen in Lineage wouldn't work in WoW because there are always 2 forced enemy factions set in stone, and it will never change.

    In Lineage it works because it's the players who make their enemies and allies, resulting in several different "factions" including the option of being a neutral clan that does not engage in war against anybody. And it can change at any time, Clan A can stop a war againt Clan B and start a new war againt Clan C, or both at the same time or none of them. Players can betray their clan and join an enemy clan, there are several possibilites. The opposite is also true, different clans can unite and form an alliance as well as alliances can break appart.
  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,313
    Kabulozo said:

    A pvp/pk system as seen in Lineage wouldn't work in WoW because there are always 2 forced enemy factions set in stone, and it will never change.

    In Lineage it works because it's the players who make their enemies and allies, resulting in several different "factions" including the option of being a neutral clan that does not engage in war against anybody. And it can change at any time, Clan A can stop a war againt Clan B and start a new war againt Clan C, or both at the same time or none of them. Players can betray their clan and join an enemy clan, there are several possibilites. The opposite is also true, different clans can unite and form an alliance as well as alliances can break appart.
    I see that maybe a mix of both would be better. I don't think having pure faction by player will ever accomplish a stable OW PVP system. Having a faction of NPC tied to the main players faction which player can clan up and still combat even allies through a war system or go against the opposing factions to control land with resources. This brings a little stability to the system so the PVE crowd is no longer the sheep feeding the wolves but yet anywhere and everywhere there is still that possibility.

    Having this faction would mean those that want to PK can still do it but eventually they are going to have problems with NPCs and others in that faction. Basically chased out of their own faction.

    On top of that there is also the thing that if you PK enough every time you die you have an increased percentage of chance to die permanently.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 2018
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Kyleran
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,643
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Kabulozo said:
    Kabulozo said:
    WoW clones and the "wow cloning era" are dead. Even WoW is slowly fading, losing players faster and faster a few months after new expansion. But there is still space for MMOs, but not themeparks

    Theme parks are doing fine, as a matter of fact the 2 big ones are still more active than even the most popular Sandbox. FFXIV is still going up in player subs and wow is steady with consistent surges in the population. If you can name 1 Sandbox with the player base and popularity of ether of these two games, then you might have an argument.
    Lineage 1/Lineage M still is the biggest grossing MMO after WoW, FFXIV don't come even close.

    It made over 950 million dollars in revenue in 2017.

    People in America or Europe actually play FFXIV or ESO.  Almost no one play lineage in America or Europe.  So you are referencing a game no one on this forum care about.  And I don't even know lineage is a sandbox game.  Never heard of people referring it as a sandbox game.  
    The online revenue from asian markets are already bigger than the west. Closing your eyes and refusing to see it won't change reality.

    Lineage is an "open" MMO not exactly a sandbox, with the open world as the main focus of the game, there are very few intances that usually have a timer in which you can enter it again (usually 24h hours to 1 week).

    90% of the content of the game as well as the pvp happens in the open world.

    None of that makes it a sandbox, its an open world themepark. Also you tell him to not close his eyes to it but you are doing the same in allowing Profit to garner what you think is popular. Linage could have 3 people who spend 3 million a year in it doesn't mean it is more popular than the other games just means it caters to spenders.
    Popularity and revenue always walk together. LoL has the biggest revenues among all PC games because it has over 100 million players.
    LoL isn't an mmo, not the topic at hand.
    It doesn't change the fact that popularity = revenue, Lineage M is currently the most popular MMO in Korea and Taiwan (the only 2 places it is available so far).

    And by far one of the least cared about here in the west. It is not also a argument to my original point as it is not a sandbox mmo.
    It still bigger than any MMO in west except WoW. It's an open game, not a themepark focused on intanced end-game raids/arenas, this is why i cited it. One of the few MMOs that still is successful that is not a themepark.
    But it is a themepark it's just not as much a directed attraction one as wow or ffxiv, it's not a sandbox and if it was more popular NCsoft wouldnt have reservations on bringing it west. They know that things like wow and ffxiv do better over here there for they never risk it.
    You need to check what makes a game a themepark.
    Raiding is the epitome of theme park.....sit and wait, stand, move, fight, sit and wait, stand move....ad nauseum.

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  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Kabulozo said:
    You need to check what makes a game a themepark.
    Raiding is the epitome of theme park.....sit and wait, stand, move, fight, sit and wait, stand move....ad nauseum.
    Themepark is a game with rules that prevent the free competition and cooperation among the players, it is not open world, and it usually gives only the linear freedom defined by the personal story quest chain.
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,171
    Tell that to everyone playing WoW or FFXIV...lol
    Tell them what? Why would they care what is happening outside their games? They have their game. No shits were given about any other MMO back when I was into SWG. It wasn't until I left when I went hunting for other things to play during a time when there were tons of somewhat OK MMOs. These days I find myself filling time with single player sim games and a bit of GW2 since pickings are slim when it comes to the all encompassing MMO I used to love.


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,382
    ikcin said:
    In fact L2 is a pure sandbox game. Well you cannot cut a tree. You can't do anything with the trees - they are simply not an element from the gameplay. But it is a real open world game, even the instances are open world, and you have absolute freedom with all mechanisms and elements of the gameplay.
    Except by many people's definition it's not a sandbox.

    Its lacking feature "x", "y" or "z" which they feel are "requirements" for a game to be called a "true" sand box. 

    Or it isn't enough like game "abc" or game "def" which they believe set the "gold" standard 20 plus years ago.

    Fact is there is no more elusive gaming term to define than this one IMO.

    I always tell people I'll know a sand box game when I feel one, after that who can say?
    Mendel

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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