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Star Citizen & SQ4 Roadmap (updated April 8th)

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  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    Cool cool. Looking forward to page 50 of this thread in 2020.
    NorseGod
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    DKLond said:
    gervaise1 said:
    DKLond said:
    Vrika said:
    Back when RSI started their quarterly patches, wasn't their original aim to develop things, and then once every quarter select what was ready enough to implement in this quarters patch?

    As per their own info, I think they were supposed to be doing staggered development all along. Then sometime after 3.0 release and before now they apparently failed it and moved on to more rigid 3 month development times. Then now they're again moving back towards staggered development that they tried to do in the first place.
    Yes, and they have done that. The problem is that the features they put in, aren’t polished to their satisfaction, and while the patch does hit PTU on time, they want it to hit live on time.

    This is not a huge change, but more a refinement of the way they have been doing things for a while.

    The quarterly schedule wasn’t staggered before, though - only some of the content was staggered, like ships.


    Saying stuff like "the quarterly schedule wasn't staggered before" - is nonsence. On their last update they reported progress on 2020 Q1! Go back and look at any update and they always show progress in future quarters. They clearly had "multiple pipelines" before.

    And as @Vrika correctly said their stated intent was to release the stuff that was finished, if not it got pushed to the next quarter. Nothing wrong with that btw. And they have always said the estimates are best dates. So if a team thought it needed 3 month to finish and release - fully polished - and they needed 4 months so what, they just slip.......

    I honestly don't think you understand what they mean by staggered.

    Once again, they didn't have staggered development teams for the quarterly schedule before. Well, except for some of the content, including the ship pipeline paradigm.

    Meaning, they didn't have dedicated teams focused on two different schedules before. Before, it was all focus on one schedule.

    Focus doesn't mean that nothing else is worked on.

    It's not that complicated, really.

    Teams suggesting that they have to release stuff when its not polished - when that was not the declared (to us) plan and it was always said (to us) that the estimates were only best endeavours is a sign of teams under pressure. 

    Its the difference between us being told that the estimates are simply best guesses and may slip and the internal reality. To the teams the dates - clearly - have been fixed.

    What has happened? 

    Yes, the dates to aim for have been fixed. That's actually why we have dates as a word and concept. That doesn't mean anything - as things will slip, as they have always done - and will always do.

    What has happened is that they want to deliver a more polished patch, and they want more time to work out issues than 3 months.

    Again, it's not complicated.

    And going forward they will deliver quarterly patches of stuff that is finished against best endeavours estimates. Just like before! 

    Well, we don't actually know until we see the results.

    In theory, however, the difference is that each quarterly release should be more polished, and ideally it will hit live on time - instead of weeks later.




      
    Except that - externally - the dates were not fixed. Check out their web page; its a BIG caveat - which is fine btw. To us its simply been a case of release stuff when its done. 

    What has happened is that some stuff has changed internally And as a result they hope they will be better able to provide realistic schedules and deliver against them.

    I can talked at great length about team structures and different ways of working - the term "staggered" is pretty vague by the way.

    And you go on about "its not that complicated" but: do you understand the term "fixed date"? 

    Ordinarily dates in a schedule are not fixed. Dates float. There are times when you will fix one or more dates e.g. if doing a backward pass. I assume they will be working to ASAP stuff but if they are constrained by e.g. money they might be doing some ALAP stuff. (I could explain but its not complicated ....)

    Its simple:

    A couple of years back they "struggled". They regrouped, said that getting the patch out had created stress and they would go back (again) to releasing stuff when it was ready. A more relaxed approach. Last year it went fine. This year - especially since the SQ42 schedule came out - not so much. And its clearly been taking its toll. Now they have regrouped and will start afresh.

    No problem with that. Its not that complicated btw.
    Kyleran
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    gervaise1 said:
    DKLond said:
    gervaise1 said:
    DKLond said:
    Vrika said:
    Back when RSI started their quarterly patches, wasn't their original aim to develop things, and then once every quarter select what was ready enough to implement in this quarters patch?

    As per their own info, I think they were supposed to be doing staggered development all along. Then sometime after 3.0 release and before now they apparently failed it and moved on to more rigid 3 month development times. Then now they're again moving back towards staggered development that they tried to do in the first place.
    Yes, and they have done that. The problem is that the features they put in, aren’t polished to their satisfaction, and while the patch does hit PTU on time, they want it to hit live on time.

    This is not a huge change, but more a refinement of the way they have been doing things for a while.

    The quarterly schedule wasn’t staggered before, though - only some of the content was staggered, like ships.


    Saying stuff like "the quarterly schedule wasn't staggered before" - is nonsence. On their last update they reported progress on 2020 Q1! Go back and look at any update and they always show progress in future quarters. They clearly had "multiple pipelines" before.

    And as @Vrika correctly said their stated intent was to release the stuff that was finished, if not it got pushed to the next quarter. Nothing wrong with that btw. And they have always said the estimates are best dates. So if a team thought it needed 3 month to finish and release - fully polished - and they needed 4 months so what, they just slip.......

    I honestly don't think you understand what they mean by staggered.

    Once again, they didn't have staggered development teams for the quarterly schedule before. Well, except for some of the content, including the ship pipeline paradigm.

    Meaning, they didn't have dedicated teams focused on two different schedules before. Before, it was all focus on one schedule.

    Focus doesn't mean that nothing else is worked on.

    It's not that complicated, really.

    Teams suggesting that they have to release stuff when its not polished - when that was not the declared (to us) plan and it was always said (to us) that the estimates were only best endeavours is a sign of teams under pressure. 

    Its the difference between us being told that the estimates are simply best guesses and may slip and the internal reality. To the teams the dates - clearly - have been fixed.

    What has happened? 

    Yes, the dates to aim for have been fixed. That's actually why we have dates as a word and concept. That doesn't mean anything - as things will slip, as they have always done - and will always do.

    What has happened is that they want to deliver a more polished patch, and they want more time to work out issues than 3 months.

    Again, it's not complicated.

    And going forward they will deliver quarterly patches of stuff that is finished against best endeavours estimates. Just like before! 

    Well, we don't actually know until we see the results.

    In theory, however, the difference is that each quarterly release should be more polished, and ideally it will hit live on time - instead of weeks later.




      
    Except that - externally - the dates were not fixed. Check out their web page; its a BIG caveat - which is fine btw. To us its simply been a case of release stuff when its done. 

    What has happened is that some stuff has changed internally And as a result they hope they will be better able to provide realistic schedules and deliver against them.

    I can talked at great length about team structures and different ways of working - the term "staggered" is pretty vague by the way.

    And you go on about "its not that complicated" but: do you understand the term "fixed date"? 

    Ordinarily dates in a schedule are not fixed. Dates float. There are times when you will fix one or more dates e.g. if doing a backward pass. I assume they will be working to ASAP stuff but if they are constrained by e.g. money they might be doing some ALAP stuff. (I could explain but its not complicated ....)

    Its simple:

    A couple of years back they "struggled". They regrouped, said that getting the patch out had created stress and they would go back (again) to releasing stuff when it was ready. A more relaxed approach. Last year it went fine. This year - especially since the SQ42 schedule came out - not so much. And its clearly been taking its toll. Now they have regrouped and will start afresh.

    No problem with that. Its not that complicated btw.
    Dates are, by definition, fixed entities. That's why they're dates.

    That doesn't mean they can't change, obviously - but, until they do, they're fixed simply by being dates.

    Anyway, as for your inability to understand what they mean by staggered, I can't really help that.

    I've already explained it in very simple terms, and if you still don't understand - there's little more I can do.

    That said, we agree that they've struggled. The entire thing is one big struggle.

    However, most of them seem to enjoy it. But making the most ambitious game of all time is, naturally, a struggle.

    I don't see how it could be anything else. I don't see any way it could be anything like what it is, without being a huge challenge - full of delays and changes.

    That's how actual progress is made.
    Kyleran
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Babuinix said:
    Kefo said:
    Babuinix said:
    Only people completely oblivious to how game development works or living in a rock would think that roadmap changes are something odd...

    https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/news/trello-revamp-tracking-features

    Like all parts of game developing everything needs to be flexible and be adapted as it goes. Making big games requires a lot of people to work on it's many features and ofc when you have multiple teams working on specific sub-set of features some will take longer than other and the roadmaps will be updated to reflect that. Game development 101.
    And only shills would overlook the fact that CIG likes to quietly remove features promised for a patch slated for the upcoming release and move it to the next patch or further down so they can say they delivered their quarterly patch on time or only slightly late and 100% complete in the roadmap.

    If they wanted to be honest with the people funding their paycheques they would leave the feature as incomplete in the patch it was promised in and also re-list it in the patch they hope to include it in in the roadmap. If they miss that window again it stays there as incomplete and repeat the process. Not this bullshit where every patch is 100% complete! We are doing just fine!
    So knowning and understanding that no development roadmap survives contact with reality, that items on a roadmap are just intentions not and promises (there are no promises in game development btw) and that juggling features and priorities is the norm within agile development makes me a shill lol

    Less tunel vision on Star Citizen and more into other games development stories and Agile roadmaps would probably help getting a broader picture.



    https://medium.com/@jboogie/what-does-an-agile-product-roadmap-look-like-cf0dbe5be4ef

    Those reactions and drama mongering are the reason most companies are so secretive about their development.

    Maybe it causes some confusion to those used to be kept in the dark and feed on 4chan rummours but for people who understand game development it's just the nature of the beast.
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.

    How long have they been promising their ssocs or whatever the hell its called? Been on the roadmap multiple times and they still can’t get it right. 

    Ill ignore your little bait about 4chan
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,381
    Kefo said:
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.
    The current roadmap there are many features on development that are not yet publicly put on any of the milestones, simply because they don't know yet when they will hit, server-side OCS is one of those, could be 3.8, 3.9... 

    It makes sense to start moving the feature to the milestone once it looks more solid for it, they could improve this by adding a new area with the features that are developing that are not yet put on a release milestone.
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Kefo said:
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.

    How long have they been promising their ssocs or whatever the hell its called? Been on the roadmap multiple times and they still can’t get it right. 

    Ill ignore your little bait about 4chan
    But there are no promises in game development, just intentions. I just gave you a link and a IMAGE that explains all that in the most simplest way. They are working in SSOCS like they are working in many other parts of the tech, if it's not ready it's because it requires more work put into it. I don't understand how can that be so hard to understand tbh lol
    Kyleran
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited September 2019
    DKLond said:
    gervaise1 said:
    DKLond said:
    gervaise1 said:
    DKLond said:
    Vrika said:
    Back when RSI started their quarterly patches, wasn't their original aim to develop things, and then once every quarter select what was ready enough to implement in this quarters patch?

    As per their own info, I think they were supposed to be doing staggered development all along. Then sometime after 3.0 release and before now they apparently failed it and moved on to more rigid 3 month development times. Then now they're again moving back towards staggered development that they tried to do in the first place.
    Yes, and they have done that. The problem is that the features they put in, aren’t polished to their satisfaction, and while the patch does hit PTU on time, they want it to hit live on time.

    This is not a huge change, but more a refinement of the way they have been doing things for a while.

    The quarterly schedule wasn’t staggered before, though - only some of the content was staggered, like ships.


    Saying stuff like "the quarterly schedule wasn't staggered before" - is nonsence. On their last update they reported progress on 2020 Q1! Go back and look at any update and they always show progress in future quarters. They clearly had "multiple pipelines" before.

    And as @Vrika correctly said their stated intent was to release the stuff that was finished, if not it got pushed to the next quarter. Nothing wrong with that btw. And they have always said the estimates are best dates. So if a team thought it needed 3 month to finish and release - fully polished - and they needed 4 months so what, they just slip.......

    I honestly don't think you understand what they mean by staggered.

    Once again, they didn't have staggered development teams for the quarterly schedule before. Well, except for some of the content, including the ship pipeline paradigm.

    Meaning, they didn't have dedicated teams focused on two different schedules before. Before, it was all focus on one schedule.

    Focus doesn't mean that nothing else is worked on.

    It's not that complicated, really.

    Teams suggesting that they have to release stuff when its not polished - when that was not the declared (to us) plan and it was always said (to us) that the estimates were only best endeavours is a sign of teams under pressure. 

    Its the difference between us being told that the estimates are simply best guesses and may slip and the internal reality. To the teams the dates - clearly - have been fixed.

    What has happened? 

    Yes, the dates to aim for have been fixed. That's actually why we have dates as a word and concept. That doesn't mean anything - as things will slip, as they have always done - and will always do.

    What has happened is that they want to deliver a more polished patch, and they want more time to work out issues than 3 months.

    Again, it's not complicated.

    And going forward they will deliver quarterly patches of stuff that is finished against best endeavours estimates. Just like before! 

    Well, we don't actually know until we see the results.

    In theory, however, the difference is that each quarterly release should be more polished, and ideally it will hit live on time - instead of weeks later.




      
    Except that - externally - the dates were not fixed. Check out their web page; its a BIG caveat - which is fine btw. To us its simply been a case of release stuff when its done. 

    What has happened is that some stuff has changed internally And as a result they hope they will be better able to provide realistic schedules and deliver against them.

    I can talked at great length about team structures and different ways of working - the term "staggered" is pretty vague by the way.

    And you go on about "its not that complicated" but: do you understand the term "fixed date"? 

    Ordinarily dates in a schedule are not fixed. Dates float. There are times when you will fix one or more dates e.g. if doing a backward pass. I assume they will be working to ASAP stuff but if they are constrained by e.g. money they might be doing some ALAP stuff. (I could explain but its not complicated ....)

    Its simple:

    A couple of years back they "struggled". They regrouped, said that getting the patch out had created stress and they would go back (again) to releasing stuff when it was ready. A more relaxed approach. Last year it went fine. This year - especially since the SQ42 schedule came out - not so much. And its clearly been taking its toll. Now they have regrouped and will start afresh.

    No problem with that. Its not that complicated btw.
    Dates are, by definition, fixed entities. That's why they're dates.

    That doesn't mean they can't change, obviously - but, until they do, they're fixed simply by being dates.

    Anyway, as for your inability to understand what they mean by staggered, I can't really help that.

    I've already explained it in very simple terms, and if you still don't understand - there's little more I can do.

    That said, we agree that they've struggled. The entire thing is one big struggle.

    However, most of them seem to enjoy it. But making the most ambitious game of all time is, naturally, a struggle.

    I don't see how it could be anything else. I don't see any way it could be anything like what it is, without being a huge challenge - full of delays and changes.

    That's how actual progress is made.

    A date is a date absolutely. 
    What I talked about though was a "fixed date" - which in the context used has a very specific definition. And its not what you are talking about. I could point you to several (professional) definitions ....
    The type of date you are talking about btw is a "target date".

    Try to read and understand the flow rather than being defensive.

    As for "staggered" I know enough to know that I don't "know" what changes they have made! You sure you do? Stop and think: they have been doing "staggered" all along ...

    Nor do we need to know whether they have 6 teams or 16, are doing weekly or monthly progress, if they are linking spend to tasks complete etc. etc. All people following SC need to know is when do they plan to deliver. And knowing what progress they are making towards that is good for maintaining momentum and funding etc.

    So, as I said, all they needed to say was: struggled with schedule delivery of late, done some reorganisation, expect to be better in the future.

    Simple.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Babuinix said:
    Kefo said:
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.

    How long have they been promising their ssocs or whatever the hell its called? Been on the roadmap multiple times and they still can’t get it right. 

    Ill ignore your little bait about 4chan
    But there are no promises in game development, just intentions. I just gave you a link and a IMAGE that explains all that in the most simplest way. They are working in SSOCS like they are working in many other parts of the tech, if it's not ready it's because it requires more work put into it. I don't understand how can that be so hard to understand tbh lol
    Have you asked the devs if they understand it? They have been promising all these Hail Mary fixes and pushing them back for just as long. I might not be a game dev but apparently I can understand when someone is trying to fake it till you make it in game dev
    NorseGod
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,381
    edited September 2019
    Kefo said:
    Have you asked the devs if they understand it? They have been promising all these Hail Mary fixes and pushing them back for just as long. I might not be a game dev but apparently I can understand when someone is trying to fake it till you make it in game dev
    Major undertakings as OCS that touch virtually all aspects of the game are pieces of tech are understandably unpredictable to know how much work will be sunk there.

    And what I've noticed is such undertakings on the tech where the complex unpredictable implementations lie are forcing development resources to be prioritized towards it, having the features such as the gameplay front stuff stalled until they get sorted, it's quite a chain thing and the schedule gets rip that easy.

    Understanding it doesn't mean you can control or predict it, the complexity of the task will be imposing and implementation challenges can go from simple to refactoring the code.
    Kyleran
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited September 2019
    Kefo said:
    Babuinix said:
    Kefo said:
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.

    How long have they been promising their ssocs or whatever the hell its called? Been on the roadmap multiple times and they still can’t get it right. 

    Ill ignore your little bait about 4chan
    But there are no promises in game development, just intentions. I just gave you a link and a IMAGE that explains all that in the most simplest way. They are working in SSOCS like they are working in many other parts of the tech, if it's not ready it's because it requires more work put into it. I don't understand how can that be so hard to understand tbh lol
    Have you asked the devs if they understand it? They have been promising all these Hail Mary fixes and pushing them back for just as long. I might not be a game dev but apparently I can understand when someone is trying to fake it till you make it in game dev
    They have been very clear about their intentions, and they've already passed major milestones. 64-bit precision was one such milestone, and they made it happen.

    Unified 1P/3P was another one, and one they nearly gave up on - but they passed it.

    Multiple physics grids was another major one, and they passed it.

    Client-side OCS was yet another major one, and they passed it.

    Now, they're working on SSOCS - and it's a major one. Will they pass it? Who knows, but they certainly think they can do it - and they've been able to pass several major obstacles in the past.

    The game is still in development, though, and there's tons of work yet to do.

    If you think it's impossible because of delays, that's your perspective.

    To me, delays alone are part and parcel of innovative projects. It's just the nature of the beast.
    BabuinixKyleran
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,905
    DKLond said:
    Kefo said:
    Babuinix said:
    Kefo said:
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.

    How long have they been promising their ssocs or whatever the hell its called? Been on the roadmap multiple times and they still can’t get it right. 

    Ill ignore your little bait about 4chan
    But there are no promises in game development, just intentions. I just gave you a link and a IMAGE that explains all that in the most simplest way. They are working in SSOCS like they are working in many other parts of the tech, if it's not ready it's because it requires more work put into it. I don't understand how can that be so hard to understand tbh lol
    Have you asked the devs if they understand it? They have been promising all these Hail Mary fixes and pushing them back for just as long. I might not be a game dev but apparently I can understand when someone is trying to fake it till you make it in game dev
    They have been very clear about their intentions, and they've already passed major milestones. 64-bit precision was one such milestone, and they made it happen.

    Unified 1P/3P was another one, and one they nearly gave up on - but they passed it.

    Multiple physics grids was another major one, and they passed it.

    Client-side OCS was yet another major one, and they passed it.

    Now, they're working on SSOCS - and it's a major one. Will they pass it? Who knows, but they certainly think they can do it - and they've been able to pass several major obstacles in the past.

    The game is still in development, though, and there's tons of work yet to do.

    If you think it's impossible because of delays, that's your perspective.

    To me, delays alone are part and parcel of innovative projects. It's just the nature of the beast.
    Of course they will pass SSOCS. It's not a new technique, we have games like Minecraft doing OCS and working just fine. RSI just sells everything they do as a major obstacle.
    NorseGodKefo
     
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited September 2019
    Vrika said:
    DKLond said:
    Kefo said:
    Babuinix said:
    Kefo said:
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.

    How long have they been promising their ssocs or whatever the hell its called? Been on the roadmap multiple times and they still can’t get it right. 

    Ill ignore your little bait about 4chan
    But there are no promises in game development, just intentions. I just gave you a link and a IMAGE that explains all that in the most simplest way. They are working in SSOCS like they are working in many other parts of the tech, if it's not ready it's because it requires more work put into it. I don't understand how can that be so hard to understand tbh lol
    Have you asked the devs if they understand it? They have been promising all these Hail Mary fixes and pushing them back for just as long. I might not be a game dev but apparently I can understand when someone is trying to fake it till you make it in game dev
    They have been very clear about their intentions, and they've already passed major milestones. 64-bit precision was one such milestone, and they made it happen.

    Unified 1P/3P was another one, and one they nearly gave up on - but they passed it.

    Multiple physics grids was another major one, and they passed it.

    Client-side OCS was yet another major one, and they passed it.

    Now, they're working on SSOCS - and it's a major one. Will they pass it? Who knows, but they certainly think they can do it - and they've been able to pass several major obstacles in the past.

    The game is still in development, though, and there's tons of work yet to do.

    If you think it's impossible because of delays, that's your perspective.

    To me, delays alone are part and parcel of innovative projects. It's just the nature of the beast.
    Of course they will pass SSOCS. It's not a new technique, we have games like Minecraft doing OCS and working just fine. RSI just sells everything they do as a major obstacle.
    Yeah, and Minecraft has multiple physics grids that need to interact correctly when being segmented and put in the correct containers, and a 64-bit precision playspace representing an entire universe to deal with, right?

    Yeah, it's a trivial issue that's identical across implementations - and CIG are just super incompetent, is what you're saying? :)

    At least understand a little bit about the challenges involved before speaking from a position of authority about it.

    Anyway, yes, we agree it's very likely they'll make it work. Then the last "official" major obstacle will be server meshing.

    Something other games have also done in one way or another, but absolutely nothing on the level of Star Citizen and how they plan to smoothly pass players between instances.

    One game that does something similar is ESO - and if you think that game handles multiple instances in the same world seamlessly - then you probably haven't played it :)

    Even on a comparitively basic level, it took them years to make ESO work properly in that way.
    Babuinix
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,905
    DKLond said:
    Vrika said:
    DKLond said:
    Kefo said:
    Babuinix said:
    Kefo said:
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.

    How long have they been promising their ssocs or whatever the hell its called? Been on the roadmap multiple times and they still can’t get it right. 

    Ill ignore your little bait about 4chan
    But there are no promises in game development, just intentions. I just gave you a link and a IMAGE that explains all that in the most simplest way. They are working in SSOCS like they are working in many other parts of the tech, if it's not ready it's because it requires more work put into it. I don't understand how can that be so hard to understand tbh lol
    Have you asked the devs if they understand it? They have been promising all these Hail Mary fixes and pushing them back for just as long. I might not be a game dev but apparently I can understand when someone is trying to fake it till you make it in game dev
    They have been very clear about their intentions, and they've already passed major milestones. 64-bit precision was one such milestone, and they made it happen.

    Unified 1P/3P was another one, and one they nearly gave up on - but they passed it.

    Multiple physics grids was another major one, and they passed it.

    Client-side OCS was yet another major one, and they passed it.

    Now, they're working on SSOCS - and it's a major one. Will they pass it? Who knows, but they certainly think they can do it - and they've been able to pass several major obstacles in the past.

    The game is still in development, though, and there's tons of work yet to do.

    If you think it's impossible because of delays, that's your perspective.

    To me, delays alone are part and parcel of innovative projects. It's just the nature of the beast.
    Of course they will pass SSOCS. It's not a new technique, we have games like Minecraft doing OCS and working just fine. RSI just sells everything they do as a major obstacle.
    Yeah, and Minecraft has multiple physics grids that need to interact correctly when being segmented and put in the correct containers, and a 64-bit precision playspace representing an entire universe to deal with, right?

    Yeah, it's a trivial issue that's identical across implementations - and CIG are just super incompetent, is what you're saying? :)

    I was trying to point out that they'd need to be incompetent to fail it.

    You're the one who said they might fail, not I.
     
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    Vrika said:
    DKLond said:
    Vrika said:
    DKLond said:
    Kefo said:
    Babuinix said:
    Kefo said:
    No development roadmap survives 100% contact with reality but when you have features promised for next quarter completely disappear from the roadmap you have to start to wonder if they even have a plan or are they just throwing features up on the board to try and entice more people to throw money at them.

    How long have they been promising their ssocs or whatever the hell its called? Been on the roadmap multiple times and they still can’t get it right. 

    Ill ignore your little bait about 4chan
    But there are no promises in game development, just intentions. I just gave you a link and a IMAGE that explains all that in the most simplest way. They are working in SSOCS like they are working in many other parts of the tech, if it's not ready it's because it requires more work put into it. I don't understand how can that be so hard to understand tbh lol
    Have you asked the devs if they understand it? They have been promising all these Hail Mary fixes and pushing them back for just as long. I might not be a game dev but apparently I can understand when someone is trying to fake it till you make it in game dev
    They have been very clear about their intentions, and they've already passed major milestones. 64-bit precision was one such milestone, and they made it happen.

    Unified 1P/3P was another one, and one they nearly gave up on - but they passed it.

    Multiple physics grids was another major one, and they passed it.

    Client-side OCS was yet another major one, and they passed it.

    Now, they're working on SSOCS - and it's a major one. Will they pass it? Who knows, but they certainly think they can do it - and they've been able to pass several major obstacles in the past.

    The game is still in development, though, and there's tons of work yet to do.

    If you think it's impossible because of delays, that's your perspective.

    To me, delays alone are part and parcel of innovative projects. It's just the nature of the beast.
    Of course they will pass SSOCS. It's not a new technique, we have games like Minecraft doing OCS and working just fine. RSI just sells everything they do as a major obstacle.
    Yeah, and Minecraft has multiple physics grids that need to interact correctly when being segmented and put in the correct containers, and a 64-bit precision playspace representing an entire universe to deal with, right?

    Yeah, it's a trivial issue that's identical across implementations - and CIG are just super incompetent, is what you're saying? :)

    I was trying to point out that they'd need to be incompetent to fail it.

    You're the one who said they might fail, not I.
    No, you're the one who said they're "selling" it as a major obstacle.

    Please try to keep up with your own claims.

    Of course they might fail. That's always a possibility, however unlikely.

    Being in denial of that would make you a fool, I'd say.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,236
    edited September 2019
    Due to this, they are going to stagger teams to give the developers 6 months to finish their work instead of 3, with this the quarterly releases should still happen intending to add viability for more stable patches...................
    GameStar also reports about the staggered development approach.




    Have fun

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    How come the the new roadmap for SQ42 hasn’t been posted yet? Could it be that cutting out 71% of the features for Q3 2019 with 1 month remaining in Q3 2019 is par for the course and embarrassing?
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,236
    Kefo said:
    How come the the new roadmap for SQ42 hasn’t been posted yet? Could it be that cutting out 71% of the features for Q3 2019 with 1 month remaining in Q3 2019 is par for the course and embarrassing?
    Or you could read the articles.


    Have fun
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,381
    Vrika said:
    Of course they will pass SSOCS. It's not a new technique, we have games like Minecraft doing OCS and working just fine. RSI just sells everything they do as a major obstacle.
    Technology as that scales to the complexity of what it needs to implement with, the base engine already had an option to do what OCS did but it didn't cope with the game hence the larger solution.

    Not to mention the streaming that will need to happen in-between game-servers of the on the servermesh end-goal, this stuff is pieces of that puzzle.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    edited September 2019
    Erillion said:
    Kefo said:
    How come the the new roadmap for SQ42 hasn’t been posted yet? Could it be that cutting out 71% of the features for Q3 2019 with 1 month remaining in Q3 2019 is par for the course and embarrassing?
    Or you could read the articles.


    Have fun
    Some of them were moved to Q2 2020 so unless you are telling me 6 months somehow puts us into April-June 2020 then you might need to relearn your calendar. 

    Also if I were a betting man I would say those moved out to Q2 2020 will be moved out again
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,236
    Kefo said:
    Erillion said:
    Kefo said:
    How come the the new roadmap for SQ42 hasn’t been posted yet? Could it be that cutting out 71% of the features for Q3 2019 with 1 month remaining in Q3 2019 is par for the course and embarrassing?
    Or you could read the articles.


    Have fun
    Some of them were moved to Q2 2020 so unless you are telling me 6 months somehow puts us into April-June 2020 then you might need to relearn your calendar. 

    Also if I were a betting man I would say those moved out to Q2 2020 will be moved out again
    Or you could read the articles in the gaming press and have no need for betting ;-)

    Or ***GASP*** listen to what the developers have to say - yes, i know, a novel idea ....



    Have fun

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    Kefo said:
    Erillion said:
    Kefo said:
    How come the the new roadmap for SQ42 hasn’t been posted yet? Could it be that cutting out 71% of the features for Q3 2019 with 1 month remaining in Q3 2019 is par for the course and embarrassing?
    Or you could read the articles.


    Have fun
    Some of them were moved to Q2 2020 so unless you are telling me 6 months somehow puts us into April-June 2020 then you might need to relearn your calendar. 

    Also if I were a betting man I would say those moved out to Q2 2020 will be moved out again
    Or you could read the articles in the gaming press and have no need for betting ;-)

    Or ***GASP*** listen to what the developers have to say - yes, i know, a novel idea ....



    Have fun

    I still don’t understand what you’re trying to say and no I won’t watch that video if all you’re talking about is staggered development which I already touched on
    Erillion
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,381
    edited September 2019
    Kefo said:
    I still don’t understand what you’re trying to say and no I won’t watch that video if all you’re talking about is staggered development which I already touched on
    "To oversimplify for clarity's sake, an example of this would be that half our dev team may be working on 3.7 features, tech, and content, while the other half would be working on 3.8. Once the team working on 3.7 delivers the patch, they would then transition to 3.9. Rinse and repeat."

    In short, takes some time until this workflow is fully in place as right now even with teams split they do not have the wanted timeframe to work on it for the next 2 patches, initial push backs to cope with dev resources split are then needed.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    I still don’t understand what you’re trying to say and no I won’t watch that video if all you’re talking about is staggered development which I already touched on
    "To oversimplify for clarity's sake, an example of this would be that half our dev team may be working on 3.7 features, tech, and content, while the other half would be working on 3.8. Once the team working on 3.7 delivers the patch, they would then transition to 3.9. Rinse and repeat."

    In short, takes some time until this workflow is fully in place as right now even with teams split they do not have the wanted timeframe to work on it for the next 2 patches, initial push backs to cope with dev resources split are then needed.
    So things like vanduul behaviour and companion AI are pushed back to three months before they are supposed to enter beta?

    Is it just me or am I only one hearing alarm bells ringing really loudly?
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,381
    edited September 2019
    Kefo said:
    So things like vanduul behaviour and companion AI are pushed back to three months before they are supposed to enter beta?

    Is it just me or am I only one hearing alarm bells ringing really loudly?
    The beta estimate is not supposed to be a fixed date, better see it as just the "next thing" that comes after the feature-work listed, no point on obsessing with what is not a conservative schedule that doesn't have "time buffers" between feature-work in case of push backs anywhere on its milestones.

    What is more realistic to consider on the SQ42 roadmap is the actual feature-work REMAINING until the Beta can happen, then we can analyze as they burn through that list, that would be a decent indicator of work left and their pace.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,983
    Kefo said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    I still don’t understand what you’re trying to say and no I won’t watch that video if all you’re talking about is staggered development which I already touched on
    "To oversimplify for clarity's sake, an example of this would be that half our dev team may be working on 3.7 features, tech, and content, while the other half would be working on 3.8. Once the team working on 3.7 delivers the patch, they would then transition to 3.9. Rinse and repeat."

    In short, takes some time until this workflow is fully in place as right now even with teams split they do not have the wanted timeframe to work on it for the next 2 patches, initial push backs to cope with dev resources split are then needed.
    So things like vanduul behaviour and companion AI are pushed back to three months before they are supposed to enter beta?

    Is it just me or am I only one hearing alarm bells ringing really loudly?
    The alarm bells went off for me at the time of the Kickstarter.   And in that I have been proven right for quite a few years.  

    Not to say progress hasn't been made:  I understand that the frequency of death due to trying to ride the elevators has gone way down....

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

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