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The Number 1 goal; what it might mean.

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Tamanous said:
    Ungood said:
    I am wondering what they plan to do about hack programs, or will this be another Aim Bot/Cheat Overlay clustershitfest.
    Most of that stuff won't work due to the physics in the game being controlled completely server side. Beyond that they tackle anything else as best they can like any developer does.

    Any client hack will make that player see things but any other player and the server won't so the cheater is just ruining his own game play.
    No, in competitive PvP games, cheaters ruin the game for everyone.

  • some-clueless-guysome-clueless-guy Member UncommonPosts: 216
    Ungood said:
    Tamanous said:
    Ungood said:
    I am wondering what they plan to do about hack programs, or will this be another Aim Bot/Cheat Overlay clustershitfest.
    Most of that stuff won't work due to the physics in the game being controlled completely server side. Beyond that they tackle anything else as best they can like any developer does.

    Any client hack will make that player see things but any other player and the server won't so the cheater is just ruining his own game play.
    No, in competitive PvP games, cheaters ruin the game for everyone.

    What he means is that the hacks working on the client will make it look like they work only to the hacker. The rest of the players and the server (the guy in charge) don't see the effect. The result is some bloke who thinks he's flying around but instead his model is actual running on the ground.


    JamesGoblinmeddycktweedledumb99
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,881
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,215
    Ungood said:
    Tamanous said:
    Ungood said:
    I am wondering what they plan to do about hack programs, or will this be another Aim Bot/Cheat Overlay clustershitfest.
    Most of that stuff won't work due to the physics in the game being controlled completely server side. Beyond that they tackle anything else as best they can like any developer does.

    Any client hack will make that player see things but any other player and the server won't so the cheater is just ruining his own game play.
    No, in competitive PvP games, cheaters ruin the game for everyone.

    What he means is that the hacks working on the client will make it look like they work only to the hacker. The rest of the players and the server (the guy in charge) don't see the effect. The result is some bloke who thinks he's flying around but instead his model is actual running on the ground.


    Radar hacks were huge in DAOC
    Wonder if those can be prevented 
    Ungoodtweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,785
    And what happens to this game if 1000 people turn into 30?
  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,195
    DMKano said:
    I think its a pie in the sky goal as I doubt that the game will have 1000 player battles all that often especially 3 or 6 months post launch when the population settles down.

    Aiming for goals that wont happen often especially longterm - I dont see much point in that
    You just have to look at Planetside 2 for this. It does happen, and it is great when it does, but if the system 'requires' these large battles to sustain itself, it makes the game unstable.
    YashaX
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    Ungood said:
    Tamanous said:
    Ungood said:
    I am wondering what they plan to do about hack programs, or will this be another Aim Bot/Cheat Overlay clustershitfest.
    Most of that stuff won't work due to the physics in the game being controlled completely server side. Beyond that they tackle anything else as best they can like any developer does.

    Any client hack will make that player see things but any other player and the server won't so the cheater is just ruining his own game play.
    No, in competitive PvP games, cheaters ruin the game for everyone.

    That has nothing to do with what I said ... and, no shit.
    JamesGoblinYashaX

    You stay sassy!

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,242
    Their primary goal of 1k+ player battles is one of the main reasons I want to play this game. 

    I do worry about the potential for it to devolve into massive zerg fests. To some extent, I expect that to happen due to human nature. That said, there are a variety of things CSE are building into CU to help us manage large scale fights:


    1) Collision Detection - quite simply, zerging will be a pain in the ass as we can't get past one another. A well organised group of enemies could block off a crucial bridge or door against the zerg. 

    2) In built voice chat - can't explain how much this matters. A built in voice chat system will help organise pugs, helping to prevent the zerg mentality by actually being able to issue instructions to your group. 

    3) Class interdependence - the game aims to be heavy on class interdependence. So, as players we're going to want to be a part of a large raid so that we can work together. Some good leaders will hopefully start kicking people who don't follow instructions, leading to a situation where most players actually follow a plan. 

    4) No cap on raid size - a raid can have as many groups as it wants, so we may well have raids consisting of 200+ players. Again, this is just another tool in the bag to help organise the masses. 

    5) Progression is hidden - the xp / renown or whatever that we use to progress is hidden from us. It gets calculated daily based on our actions. This should stop people from endlessly chasing down kills and get them to focus more on the game itself, helping with immersion and willingness to participate in non-combat activities, like guarding caravans, building castles etc. 



    How often we see 1K+ battles will depend on the design of the islands. I guess I expect there to be a lot of smaller scale battles on a daily basis, but at some point I imagine we'll end up converging on a key island / keep and then we'll see something big. 

    I also don't care much about graphics. I can accept dated graphics, though I think CU will actually stand up OK. I more fear crappy animations, but that's not so much a fear on the technical side as it is on the creative side (lotro had terrible player animations, didn't notice much when first playing but after coming back from breaks, it was awful!)
    YashaX
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    SpacialOS is just underlying network tech allowing existing game engines to offload across cloud servers. It doesn't mean that the actual game is even within the same genre and Project X isn't a fantasy RvR game.
    YashaXtweedledumb99

    You stay sassy!

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    To be clear, CU is aimed at a player base WANTING to do massive siege warfare and is designed around that concept. Why? Because it has happened countless times in the real world and many people actually want a game that can do such a thing with real players instead of AI, single player games.

    Will it work? We'll find out. The game is being engineered from the ground up to do it and give reasons to do it.
    tweedledumb99

    You stay sassy!

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,881
    Tamanous said:
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    SpacialOS is just underlying network tech allowing existing game engines to offload across cloud servers. It doesn't mean that the actual game is even within the same genre and Project X isn't a fantasy RvR game.
    The genre actual isn't the defining point. Like the OP said, it's 400+ battles  which Spatial touts. What project X will show is whether Spatial can handle the load like it advertises and what tradeoffs have been made to make massive concurrency work. If they can make that proof of concept work then that opens up the doors to all sorts of possibilities to make successors to large scale battlefield games, like Planetside and DAoC.
    some-clueless-guy
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    Besides powerful anti-cheat, there is another less obvious benefit: if your tech is able to handle 1k battles well (or to handle it at all, speaking of any other game), you might be able to really go wild with, say, 100 players nearby.

    I have in mind effects/particles, physics, destruction, A.I.R. system (in CU, even spells will interact with each other physically, creating all kinds of effects), collision of everything with anything (players with players with walls with spells with trees...), level of detail - be it players or ambient and so on.

    They talked about dynamical scaling, the way I understood it is that 1000 players in CU will resemble what happens with 100(obviously, a random number) in ESO or GW2, thus smaller scale of "only" couple hundreds should run rather smoothly.
    YashaX
     W...aaagh?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,567
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    SpatialIOS remains an unproven solution for the most part,  reviews from Worlds Adrift are conflicting on how well it is working so far.

    But you are right,  if another title releases this year which can support large battles it may steal much of the thunder which CU is based on.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,567
    kapibane said:
    DMKano said:
    I think its a pie in the sky goal as I doubt that the game will have 1000 player battles all that often especially 3 or 6 months post launch when the population settles down.

    Aiming for goals that wont happen often especially longterm - I dont see much point in that
    So much exist in the world because other people wanted to prove people like you wrong.
    Well, if they don't build for it now, the game will never support 1K player battles, so better if they try even if the players never show up.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,881
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    SpatialIOS remains an unproven solution for the most part,  reviews from Worlds Adrift are conflicting on how well it is working so far.

    But you are right,  if another title releases this year which can support large battles it may steal much of the thunder which CU is based on.


    I've said in a couple other posts their claims are yet to be proven. I'm not skeptical that CSE or Spatial can pull it off. It's rather who can pull off a solid stable version first.

    I may be making too much of it though. People might not care either way. If it was me though, I would want to be there first with the best version so everything that came after is perceived as following. We call them WoW clones for a reason. Not because WoW was the very first, but it was the first "best" standards setting version. We've already seen big battles in PS1 and DAoC. What we've not seen are big battles in new engines and tech.
    KyleranMrMelGibson
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,215
    Apparently though... at least according to the CoE developers... SpatialOS was requiring that they use their Cloud Servers and they were very expensive.  I have my doubts about that but if it's true, then even if SpatialOS proves to be first... CU may still have made a wise choice by developing their own engine.  

    Time will tell.

    YashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,881
    Competition can push prices in a user friendlier direction. Stability and performance will drive price and platform too. It could be a benefit for the industry because if these two platforms take off it should light a fire under Epic and Amazon to make their engines competetive. That's why I can see Amazon buying Spatial if it works well, or CSE for that matter.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited January 2018
    Ungood said:
    Tamanous said:
    Ungood said:
    I am wondering what they plan to do about hack programs, or will this be another Aim Bot/Cheat Overlay clustershitfest.
    Most of that stuff won't work due to the physics in the game being controlled completely server side. Beyond that they tackle anything else as best they can like any developer does.

    Any client hack will make that player see things but any other player and the server won't so the cheater is just ruining his own game play.
    No, in competitive PvP games, cheaters ruin the game for everyone.

    What he means is that the hacks working on the client will make it look like they work only to the hacker. The rest of the players and the server (the guy in charge) don't see the effect. The result is some bloke who thinks he's flying around but instead his model is actual running on the ground.


    Radar hacks were huge in DAOC
    Wonder if those can be prevented 
    This is what I am wondering, Aim Bots, Radar, seen some speed run boost hacks, and sometimes the ability to ignore/avoid damage or other effects.

    Like GW2, allows for Run Speed Hacks, and the ability to eliminate all crippling effects, as well as glitch though walls, in their WvW.

    So, that is what I am wondering about. 
    BruceYee
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,695
    DMKano said:
    I think its a pie in the sky goal as I doubt that the game will have 1000 player battles all that often especially 3 or 6 months post launch when the population settles down.

    Aiming for goals that wont happen often especially longterm - I dont see much point in that
    The point to that could be to do something no one has done before which may also be the reason they were able to secure that extra 7.5mil recently.

    The "possibility" of having 1000 person battles is something players might look forward to happening and develop their characters for those times.

    Although vanilla WoW AV was only 40 people(?) per side some of those early games on my server went for 12+ hours. I'd go to bed, wake up and the same game would still be going with the same people meaning some of those dudes didn't even sleep. Now increase the battlefield size and add 920 more players into the mix and who knows you may have the next big hit game.
  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
     Well thankfully the newly added $7 million can't hurt the chances of a prettier game. The devs seem quite passionate about delivering something that isn't just mediocre. Them being critical about how movements look is fine with me, but it doesn't need to be perfect realism imo. I was perfectly content with DAoC 1.0 models. 

     MJ and CSE, seem to be going about this the right way so far. The only thing I worry about is the time frame for release, and what will be it's competition at the time. Them planning on a Steam release for launch bodes well for the possibility of good player numbers to support those 1k battles some seem to think unlikely. 

    To those wondering about hacks and cheats, luckily CSE is doing more than most games to mitigate the possibility of exploits ahead of time. They worked with Nvidia directly to be on the cutting edge of server side physics, which means even if you edit your client to make your character fly, it will still be walking around on the ground to everyone else. Of course this won't be 100% cheat proof but it's a damn good start. 
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,415
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    SpatialIOS remains an unproven solution for the most part,  reviews from Worlds Adrift are conflicting on how well it is working so far.

    But you are right,  if another title releases this year which can support large battles it may steal much of the thunder which CU is based on.


     I very much doubt that would have any impact at all unless the game is similar to CU (the one Automation is developing is totally different).

    CU will be competing with Crowfall, and the pvp side of ESO and GW2; I imagine it will probably also pick up some of the people still playing DAOC.

    It will be interesting to see how things play out: ESO could potentially lose a lot of its pvp population to either Crowfall or CU if they are any good. I don't have my finger on the pulse with GW2 atm, but the WvW population will probably take a hit. 


    Ungood
    ....
  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,279
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    I don't see why that would put any pressure on CSE. Battleroyale is really a completely different genre than CU's RvR. Merely having several hundred players involved in a battle doesn't make a game a direct competitor to CU.
    YashaX

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,567
    meddyck said:
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    I don't see why that would put any pressure on CSE. Battleroyale is really a completely different genre than CU's RvR. Merely having several hundred players involved in a battle doesn't make a game a direct competitor to CU.
    Well the competitor's BR games is supposed to be a "MMO" which this site misquoted and called it a MMORPG because as always they are unable to tell the difference.

    If it really turns out to be more of a reincarnation of Planetside then it could be an able competitor. 


    some-clueless-guy

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    YashaX said:
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    SpatialIOS remains an unproven solution for the most part,  reviews from Worlds Adrift are conflicting on how well it is working so far.

    But you are right,  if another title releases this year which can support large battles it may steal much of the thunder which CU is based on.


     I very much doubt that would have any impact at all unless the game is similar to CU (the one Automation is developing is totally different).

    CU will be competing with Crowfall, and the pvp side of ESO and GW2; I imagine it will probably also pick up some of the people still playing DAOC.

    It will be interesting to see how things play out: ESO could potentially lose a lot of its pvp population to either Crowfall or CU if they are any good. I don't have my finger on the pulse with GW2 atm, but the WvW population will probably take a hit. 


    As someone that plays GW2, their WvW population will vanish. I would wager that all that would remain would be the gankers that like that GW2 can't balance their game for crap and the PvE loot farmers.


    YashaX
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    edited January 2018
    Torval said:
    Tamanous said:
    Torval said:
    A BattleRoyale game is launching on SpatialOS soon that touts 400+ player battles that look good. I think that is going to put a bit of pressure on CSE to get their engine done and out there for people to see, and if not it should.
    SpacialOS is just underlying network tech allowing existing game engines to offload across cloud servers. It doesn't mean that the actual game is even within the same genre and Project X isn't a fantasy RvR game.
    The genre actual isn't the defining point. Like the OP said, it's 400+ battles  which Spatial touts. What project X will show is whether Spatial can handle the load like it advertises and what tradeoffs have been made to make massive concurrency work. If they can make that proof of concept work then that opens up the doors to all sorts of possibilities to make successors to large scale battlefield games, like Planetside and DAoC.
    I wasn't speaking about the OP. I quoted one post comparing it to CSE's engine which is utilizing similar tech for a different purpose and game. This is in relation to further claims by him in another thread further comparing the 2 games.

    SpacialOS is it's own thing designed to underpin other existing game engines. It is those game engines which largely drive how many players can be in one rendered battle and not so much SpacialOS. That is local optimization more than offloading zoned areas across servers which is the more macro purpose of SpacialOS.

    I highly doubt SpacialOS has much of anything to do with how many local players interact with each other and far more to do with allowing more highly detailed characters and terrain within a larger FPS map than conventional FPS games.

    Let me be clear, as I have stated multiple times, I am excited to see how SpacialOS can be utilized to push existing genres to new limits. When it comes to MMORPGs however it should be on unprecedented scales in order to created worlds originally intended. CU's engine allows nearly endlessly scaling, procedurally designed zones and by zones I mean areas as large as entire game worlds of existing mmorpgs. That is more what SpacialOS allows existing game engines to do. The 1000+ players per local battle however is more about local optimization and won't even offload across different server shards (and thus wouldn't even use SpacialOS-style tech or it's full capacity anyways).
    YashaXRealizertweedledumb99

    You stay sassy!

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