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Level Scaling Borefest...

13

Comments

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited January 2018
    This train has derailed so hard. WoW's version of world scaling isn't like ESO or GW2 etc, so you still "outlevel" zones. The real issue is that everything literally takes longer. I dont mean ttc (which actually is) but actual exp you need to level up has increased as well and not by just a little. Its honestly just pointless doing something like that just to extend something like they purposely did throughout all of legion. I'm sure it'll be nerfed again eventually but honestly, this isn't going to keep people subbed for 6+ months until prepatch sometime in July/August probably.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    A question:  Do quest rewards and EXP scale in every zone, too?  Or just the mobs?
    MrMelGibson
  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,087
    centkin said:
    Well, it kind of removes a sense of accomplishment when you outlevel a zone and the hard mobs are now easy.

    It is kind of "gamey."  It removes a sense of immersion in the world assuming any of that is still left these days. 

    It can depending upon implementation make it so it is hard to hunt for say level+7 monsters for certain classes or duos.  Of course some games also make the loot not occur at that point either which is silly. 

    It removes the impetus to actually explore the world, not that most games do that these days either. 

    ---

    At any rate I don't mind when instances scale, but I prefer my actual world to be static levelwise.

    It is the opposite of 'gamey'.
    Your preference (which I don't say is wrong) of outleveling a zone is gamey. It makes the game world seem more fake then necessary, because it doesn't make sense to have these big differences in mob strenght. That bandit problem should never have existed if those stationed guards can already one shot them.

    As for exploring. You can explore all the same, just more like an adventurer instead of a tourist :p
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,256
    I think the drops scale because I got drops I could not use yet ,they were higher than my level.

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,414
    People who don't like level scaling somehow don't understand why levels in MMORPG's were introduced.

    The dividing of the world into zones with different level brackets is like this very weak compromise to give you an obvious sense of progression in power as player. This is only done this way because it is less complicated to program and easier on the server side (mob difficulty is just stats and doesn't have to be realtime calculated). But from an immersion point of view, it makes no sense at all.

    All those 'serious threats' you dealt with during your low level quests become a joke the moment you go back and are able to one shot a mob in those zones. So much that it doesn't even make sense that there were threats to begin with. Because all the official guards/soldiers in that zone can one shot them too. This is why it is such a weak compromise.

    I can bet you that any dev would want to have auto level scaling for any MMO back in the past (in the case they didn't go for skill based, although it works in a similar way). It makes the character progression a lot more seamless then when you divide the world in static levels brackets. There are still many ways to make the player feel more powerful when they go back to an older zone. It will just not be ridiculously over the top powerful.
    Well, before this scaling nonsense you started your warrior career by helping with a rat problem in someones wine cellar, then you saved some cattle from a big bad wolf. After a few of similar deeds you got renown amongst your villagers and helped the local militia to fight some pesky brigands who kept ransacking supplies and livestock.

    Now, after several weeks of gameplay, you have saved the king's daughter from a dragon and his demonic underlings, and found the way to summon creatures from other planes of existence, but for some reason those rats in your former neighbour's wine cellar should still give a challenge for you when you're asked for an extermination duty once again? And obviously the brigands are still there, now leveled up but still robbing food and supplies?

    There's a reason why some content gets trivial when you progress in an RPG. Only if you design it just for a leveling purpose or think it as a pve arena to get more exp it makes sense to scale everything with the player. But don't market it as an RPG for it won't be one anymore. Forget the story and immersion, every creature in the world is just like everything else you killed before.
    Tuor7[Deleted User]
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,256
    edited January 2018
    That is the problem of the player isn't it why go back and kill rats. I want to progress through the quests and I will move from one area to another always moving to higher areas and what I find especially fun is that the quests I'm doing are not greying out. I get experience and I can kill the objectives and they are all relevant to my level. Why would any one stay in one place killing the same things over and over , you have to be daft to do that.

    The way people are explaining or extrapolating is not how people who enjoy questing behave. They are looking at it from the point of view of a player staying in one spot but truly is there anything that says people will play like that.
    MrMelGibson

  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,899
    IceAge said:
    I think leveling and questing in WoW, is what I love the most. 

    So .. good bye!

    Wait, what?  How does this change prevent you from leveling and questing?
    Wait, what? I was talking with the OP! Somehow , I now see that I forgot to "name him" , so people don't get confused. 

    So yeah! I love leveling and questing in WoW and level scaling its awesome :)

    @OP - So ..good bye! :)

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,576
    I should say that I am baffled at hindering solo farming of old end game dungeons/raids.  There is no benefit to doing so.  If they want more people to do old content - they need to provide alternate versions of that content for grouping and better rewards
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,531
    edited January 2018
    Nepheth said:
    I don't think anyone complains about level scaling for WoW in this thread actually tried it or knows how it works. It is nothing like Gw2 or Eso. The zones are not completely scaled for all levels. All zones have some level limitations. You won't die to a mob in Barrens at 110 level. For example, before the patch, Westfall was a 10-15 zone. But after the patch, Westfall now is a 10-60 zone. You still have to be 10 to play in this zone. And you will out level it when you will become 61. So your power won't scale in a low level zone. You can go to Westfall when you are 83 and one shot all the mobs in it. So unlike your complains, leveling up in WoW matters.

    Btw I still don't get the people who complain about level scaling in Gw2 and Eso. I think it is a great system but trust me level scaling in WoW is nothing like that.
    I dislike ESO simply because it scales up and down.  Sure, the mobs at endgame are relatively more powerful than in the starter area, but there's still no reason to retain character levels in ESO (specifically considering skills have their own XP bars and the majority of skill points earned are from quests or the world) other than it was originally built that way and removing them would be a shock to the playerbase.

    GW2 had it right imo (and was the same kind of scaling system available in the Witcher 3, coincidentally): mobs scale up so it's always challenging content, but you don't scale up so there are still incredibly dangerous parts of the world to explore once you've gathered a few levels under your belt and are more powerful.
    Just wanted to correct you. ESO does not scale up and down.  All mobs are level 50 CP 160.  Your character at level one is scaled up to that level. The close you get to max (gear) level of 50 CP 160 to more the scaling is reduced making you more dependent on what you are wearing/doing.

    People seem to confuse what leveling is actually supposed to be for (regardless of how its implemented today).  Levels was just a way to measure growth, where each time you obtained a level you grew in customization (not necessarily power).  This is what ESO has taken MMORPGs back to. You and the mob are the same level, but when you add in high end gear and your champion points you eventually become more powerful than the mob.

    GW2 had scaling up when you to higher levels and scaling down when you go to lower levels (i.e when you are level 24 going to a level 1 zone, you will scale down to level 3). Not trivial but not Rolling over them either.  Going to a higher level the opposite happens.

    Scaling is good, especially for an MMORPG and glad to see the genre trending in that direction.  The idea of outleveling a mob is antiquated game design.
    The end effect is the same: go from starter zone to endgame zone, the mobs are all scaled to be roughly equal to your level.

    GW2, from my experience, didn't scale you upwards or content downwards.  It scaled content upwards when you participated in content below your level.  Going into a zone higher level than you are did not mean you or the content would scale.

    EDIT- to add, simply dismissing levels as antiquated ignores a large part of why such games were constructed that way in the first place: to help tell a cohesive world story to the player.  With scaling throughout, the ability for devs to nudge a player in a certain direction is gone.  That detrimentally affects their ability to tell anything but a smaller, self-contained story within that zone.
    Just a small correction first: In ESO the mobs never scale up or down. It's the player that is scaled up (also never down) if they are below level 50, CP 160. All mobs everywhere are CP 160. But that doesn't mean they are all the same. The overland in all zones has always had several different ranks of mobs from trivial to world boss and everything in between and the mobs in dungeons, especially the veteran dungeons, are of course also much tougher.

    This variation in mob difficulty of the same numerical level (which is also done through linked pack size) is not unusual in MMOs but in ESO it has always been emphasized and is much more frequent and noticeable. Different zones also still have their own unique difficulty flavor based purely on the type and density of mobs. There's one zone in particular, Craglorn, that will hand a new player's ass to them repeatedly if they go there expecting it to be just like a starter island. Even the new zone added with Morrowind, Vvanderfell, is a zone that many new players find a tough place to start (despite the marketing department, in their wisdom, dumping all new players there as their first zone :)) due to the same type and density of mob factor.

    Of course you wouldn't know any of this just looking at the theoretical ESO from the outside without playing it long enough to experience it first hand.  

    As far as story telling goes there is nothing in ESO that encourages you to leave the cross-zone stories. You can do it for your own reason if you so choose but the game is still structured with breadcrumb quests sending you to the next part of the story that continues from the previous zone. You need to go out of your way to ignore them. And best of all, if you decide to go on an instanced dungeon running binge and go up 5 levels, once you get that out of your system, you can pick up the quests right where you left off and all the mobs will still be level appropriate. That was something that I found annoying in WOW where I found myself skipping over a lot of the zone content because I had out-leveled it by running dungeons.

    I do get why this is a much bigger deal for WOW. For one thing WOW is all about that numerical level before you get to the end where it becomes all about the gear score. Messing with levels and leveling in WOW is bound to be a shock to the system of long-time players comfortable with how it has always been done for a decade.

    Is not just that ESO has only been around for 4 years it's that in one way or another there was always level scaling from day one. It always was there in Cyrodiil, the RvR zone. That zone has always had some PVE content: quests as well as delves and dark anchors. That was always set to a specific mob level and players were always scaled to it if they were below that level. No one ever bitched about that level scaling nor did they complain much when all the DLC zones that were added were done exactly the same way. The only players who may have been surprised by the One Tamriel patch would have been the ones who never set foot in Cyrodiil or one of the many DLC zones.
    MrMelGibsonMadFrenchiePalebane
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  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686
    Anyone played wow 7.3.5.

    actually the leveling is fun again.
    great change from Blizzard, it was long overdue
    i love the fact that finally i can finish things up again while leveling
    witouth hving to stop xp earnings..

    i just replayed the whole Wrath of the lichking campaign
    except for the raid part...

    people seem to forget that many still play MMO’s for the comtemt
    Hariken[Deleted User]

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,655
    Leveling scaling is the best new thing that has happened in mmo's. I love how they have done it in ESO. You can go anywhere in the game world and quest and receive level rewards and xp. And even with this scaling you can die if you don't pay attention. Its the one thing i give props to in ESO. If wow adds this system with that massive game world it would be good for the game. LOL getting killed by a pack of kobolds in Goldshire would be so funny if your level 100.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    @Iselin typed up a response, but the mobile forums still suck and make formatting more of a bitch than is acceptable.  I'll try to post it later from desktop.

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    edited January 2018
    centkin said:
    Well, it kind of removes a sense of accomplishment when you outlevel a zone and the hard mobs are now easy.

    It is kind of "gamey."  It removes a sense of immersion in the world assuming any of that is still left these days. 

    It can depending upon implementation make it so it is hard to hunt for say level+7 monsters for certain classes or duos.  Of course some games also make the loot not occur at that point either which is silly. 

    It removes the impetus to actually explore the world, not that most games do that these days either. 

    ---

    At any rate I don't mind when instances scale, but I prefer my actual world to be static levelwise.

    Mobs that are hard when you are the right level are still easy when you are downleveled in any system I ever seen, the difference is that they aren't grey and could kill you if you play poorly enough.

    And don't bring logic into the leveling mechanics, you can beat dragons in a zone at the high end of it so you move to the low end of next zone and have problem with goblins.

    If you want immersion you probably should get rid of levels altogether or at least drop the powergap between noobs and vets like there was no tomorrow.

    Realistically, how many ill trained militia fighters do you think it takes to defeat a master? 5? 12? Certainly no-one could be no more then 20, doesn't matter if they are Miamoto Musashi, William Wallace,  Richard Lionheart or whoever.

    In a MMO a max level character can kill a thousand lvl 1s in the same fight without any effort or risk at all. If you are talking silly it is strange that you didn't mention that part.

    Grey mobs don't drop anything because the crap they have basically is below your character to even care about, the illogical part is the carrying capacity and how much vendortrash we pick up.

    Logic? ROTFL
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited January 2018
    @Loke666 that's why I'm a fan of scaling content up, but not down.

    Richard Lionheart may be able to take on 3-4 ill-trained militia at once, but he sure as shit wouldn't be able to down a Dragon, to continue with your analogy.  With scaling both ways, the militia in the starter zones are far too close in terms of danger and challenge as the drakes.  All of a sudden, 2-3 ill-trained militia men can down the Dragon themselves.  With only scaling upwards, it still eventually present the problem, but the Dragon is "floored" (think opposite of capped) at a power level much higher than the militia.  It's a good balance between gameplay and immersion.

    image
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,024
    Saying goodbye to those only wanting easy mode speed leveling = best thing for the health of MMORPGs.
    [Deleted User]

    You stay sassy!

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852
    Here's what I used to hate when I played WoW.
    You level up in one zone and you over powered it. So you would move into the next, where mobs were leveled more appropriately. But what didn't make sense is something like the new zones low level area had it's own starter mobs. So you would leave one zone able to one shot...say a Dragon in the Badlands. And in the next some wild boar would kill you if you got too close.

    It didn't make sense.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited January 2018
    Here's what I used to hate when I played WoW.
    You level up in one zone and you over powered it. So you would move into the next, where mobs were leveled more appropriately. But what didn't make sense is something like the new zones low level area had it's own starter mobs. So you would leave one zone able to one shot...say a Dragon in the Badlands. And in the next some wild boar would kill you if you got too close.

    It didn't make sense.
    That's more a problem of re-using assets then an issue presented with linear power progression.  WoW only really has, like, 13 mob models total that they simply recycle through skin changes throughout the game.

    Had each zone received unique mob models, it wouldn't seem so silly.

    image
  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 499
    Tamanous said:
    Saying goodbye to those only wanting easy mode speed leveling = best thing for the health of MMORPGs.
    Problem is you are wrong...  Scaling, especially by blizzard, is always going to be adjusted to the lowest common denominator, meaning the players that whine when content is "too hard", while still being too easy for people that do actually want a challenge or are grouping with a friend. 

    Level scaling provides the opposite for those people that always previously went to higher level mobs to be challenged and get better rewards.  Now they can't do that and are forced to grind samey same easy mobs throughout the whole game.  The sense of progression is also gone or greatly reduced.

    Easy mode leveling cant be fixed with scaling, it has to be a player choice.  Players previously had a choice, now they have less choice, or none at all.  There is now a floor to difficulty, but they set it low and crapped on the players that want a higher difficulty ceiling they can fine tune by taking on higher lvl mobs.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Dvora said:
    Tamanous said:
    Saying goodbye to those only wanting easy mode speed leveling = best thing for the health of MMORPGs.
    Problem is you are wrong...  Scaling, especially by blizzard, is always going to be adjusted to the lowest common denominator, meaning the players that whine when content is "too hard", while still being too easy for people that do actually want a challenge or are grouping with a friend. 

    Level scaling provides the opposite for those people that always previously went to higher level mobs to be challenged and get better rewards.  Now they can't do that and are forced to grind samey same easy mobs throughout the whole game.  The sense of progression is also gone or greatly reduced.

    Easy mode leveling cant be fixed with scaling, it has to be a player choice.  Players previously had a choice, now they have less choice, or none at all.  There is now a floor to difficulty, but they set it low and crapped on the players that want a higher difficulty ceiling they can fine tune by taking on higher lvl mobs.
    Specifically with heirlooms, this is true.  If you're running heirlooms, PvE content is still incredibly easy in the levelling zones.  Not as bad as "my pet steals my kills" like Torval was talking about, but it's still pretty faceroll easy.  Considering the heirlooms are now balanced to be slightly below the power of a blue item of the same level, it's no longer an issue with heirlooms themselves.

    image
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,024
    edited January 2018
    Dvora said:
    Tamanous said:
    Saying goodbye to those only wanting easy mode speed leveling = best thing for the health of MMORPGs.
    Problem is you are wrong...  Scaling, especially by blizzard, is always going to be adjusted to the lowest common denominator, meaning the players that whine when content is "too hard", while still being too easy for people that do actually want a challenge or are grouping with a friend. 

    Level scaling provides the opposite for those people that always previously went to higher level mobs to be challenged and get better rewards.  Now they can't do that and are forced to grind samey same easy mobs throughout the whole game.  The sense of progression is also gone or greatly reduced.

    Easy mode leveling cant be fixed with scaling, it has to be a player choice.  Players previously had a choice, now they have less choice, or none at all.  There is now a floor to difficulty, but they set it low and crapped on the players that want a higher difficulty ceiling they can fine tune by taking on higher lvl mobs.
    Nope not wrong. 

    I didn't say I approve of the methodology taken by scaling however. I did that on purpose to see, once again, how many presumptuous fools leap beyond what is actually implied. I do this ALL the time on this site with hope that someone attempts to look at the larger picture of the issues in the industry and see past their own petty interests. I've admitted to this in many posts (my philosophical view is Taoism ... I won't show you the destination but I'll point to the path that get's you there. I don't expect you to even understand that).

    In general, what I said is true.

    You stay sassy!

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Tamanous said:
    Dvora said:
    Tamanous said:
    Saying goodbye to those only wanting easy mode speed leveling = best thing for the health of MMORPGs.
    Problem is you are wrong...  Scaling, especially by blizzard, is always going to be adjusted to the lowest common denominator, meaning the players that whine when content is "too hard", while still being too easy for people that do actually want a challenge or are grouping with a friend. 

    Level scaling provides the opposite for those people that always previously went to higher level mobs to be challenged and get better rewards.  Now they can't do that and are forced to grind samey same easy mobs throughout the whole game.  The sense of progression is also gone or greatly reduced.

    Easy mode leveling cant be fixed with scaling, it has to be a player choice.  Players previously had a choice, now they have less choice, or none at all.  There is now a floor to difficulty, but they set it low and crapped on the players that want a higher difficulty ceiling they can fine tune by taking on higher lvl mobs.
    Nope not wrong. 

    I didn't say I approve of the methodology taken by scaling however. I did that on purpose to see, once again, how many presumptuous fools leap beyond what is actually implied.

    In general, what I said is true.
    Understand your point, but it's not really foolish to assume that, since we're in a thread about WoW, you were referencing WoW with your original post.

    In fairness, Dvora did start off by saying "Scaling, especially by blizzard..."

    image
  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 499
    Loke666 said:
    centkin said:
    Well, it kind of removes a sense of accomplishment when you outlevel a zone and the hard mobs are now easy.

    It is kind of "gamey."  It removes a sense of immersion in the world assuming any of that is still left these days. 

    It can depending upon implementation make it so it is hard to hunt for say level+7 monsters for certain classes or duos.  Of course some games also make the loot not occur at that point either which is silly. 

    It removes the impetus to actually explore the world, not that most games do that these days either. 

    ---

    At any rate I don't mind when instances scale, but I prefer my actual world to be static levelwise.

    Mobs that are hard when you are the right level are still easy when you are downleveled in any system I ever seen, the difference is that they aren't grey and could kill you if you play poorly enough.

    And don't bring logic into the leveling mechanics, you can beat dragons in a zone at the high end of it so you move to the low end of next zone and have problem with goblins.

    If you want immersion you probably should get rid of levels altogether or at least drop the powergap between noobs and vets like there was no tomorrow.

    Realistically, how many ill trained militia fighters do you think it takes to defeat a master? 5? 12? Certainly no-one could be no more then 20, doesn't matter if they are Miamoto Musashi, William Wallace,  Richard Lionheart or whoever.

    In a MMO a max level character can kill a thousand lvl 1s in the same fight without any effort or risk at all. If you are talking silly it is strange that you didn't mention that part.

    Grey mobs don't drop anything because the crap they have basically is below your character to even care about, the illogical part is the carrying capacity and how much vendortrash we pick up.

    Logic? ROTFL
    how many mobs of any type do you think could get at that master at once?  Lets say 10.  If that master can take 10 at once then he can take 1000 until fatigue is a factor.

    And anyway this is a game, everyone knows and has come to accept how it works.  Unless games are going to release once and never add any new content, you have to accept how this works.  Scaling has too many downsides and removes player choice.  I'd be somewhat ok with an option to turn zone scaling on if you wish, but dont force the rest of us to fight same difficulty mobs with the difficulty set at a lowest common denominator (too low) throughout the game. 

    Let us chose to step up to higher lvl mobs.  Players have always had the ability to adjust their difficulty, scaling removes that.  Easy mode leveling is not entirely the fault of the game as some have suggested.  

  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 499
    edited January 2018
    Tamanous said:
    Dvora said:
    Tamanous said:
    Saying goodbye to those only wanting easy mode speed leveling = best thing for the health of MMORPGs.
    Problem is you are wrong...  Scaling, especially by blizzard, is always going to be adjusted to the lowest common denominator, meaning the players that whine when content is "too hard", while still being too easy for people that do actually want a challenge or are grouping with a friend. 

    Level scaling provides the opposite for those people that always previously went to higher level mobs to be challenged and get better rewards.  Now they can't do that and are forced to grind samey same easy mobs throughout the whole game.  The sense of progression is also gone or greatly reduced.

    Easy mode leveling cant be fixed with scaling, it has to be a player choice.  Players previously had a choice, now they have less choice, or none at all.  There is now a floor to difficulty, but they set it low and crapped on the players that want a higher difficulty ceiling they can fine tune by taking on higher lvl mobs.
    Nope not wrong. 

    I didn't say I approve of the methodology taken by scaling however. I did that on purpose to see, once again, how many presumptuous fools leap beyond what is actually implied. I do this ALL the time on this site with hope that someone attempts to look at the larger picture of the issues in the industry and see past their own petty interests. I've admitted to this in many posts (my philosophical view is Taoism ... I won't show you the destination but I'll point to the path that get's you there. I don't expect you to even understand that).

    In general, what I said is true.
    As Frenchie said, in context of this thread, you implied favoring scaling.  Don't blame me if you're trying to play some inside joke only you are on the inside of.
  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 499
    edited January 2018
    Dvora said:
    Tamanous said:
    Saying goodbye to those only wanting easy mode speed leveling = best thing for the health of MMORPGs.
    Problem is you are wrong...  Scaling, especially by blizzard, is always going to be adjusted to the lowest common denominator, meaning the players that whine when content is "too hard", while still being too easy for people that do actually want a challenge or are grouping with a friend. 

    Level scaling provides the opposite for those people that always previously went to higher level mobs to be challenged and get better rewards.  Now they can't do that and are forced to grind samey same easy mobs throughout the whole game.  The sense of progression is also gone or greatly reduced.

    Easy mode leveling cant be fixed with scaling, it has to be a player choice.  Players previously had a choice, now they have less choice, or none at all.  There is now a floor to difficulty, but they set it low and crapped on the players that want a higher difficulty ceiling they can fine tune by taking on higher lvl mobs.
    Specifically with heirlooms, this is true.  If you're running heirlooms, PvE content is still incredibly easy in the levelling zones.  Not as bad as "my pet steals my kills" like Torval was talking about, but it's still pretty faceroll easy.  Considering the heirlooms are now balanced to be slightly below the power of a blue item of the same level, it's no longer an issue with heirlooms themselves.
    Ya, while I was with the crowd that went and got every heirloom I could, I think it really did ruin the leveling...  It was my own choice to use them, but I think the game was better off before we had that choice :)  It made getting a good drop in a dungeon worthless, heirloom was always as good or better, or soon would be tot the point of never being worth swapping out for the new piece.  Nothing to look forward to in dungeon grinding other than exp.

    Then again I still had the option to find mobs higher than me that made them just as difficult for me as equal lvl mobs were for those without heirlooms.  I lvled faster but not necessarily easier kills per mob.
    MadFrenchieSoki123
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Dvora said:
    Loke666 said:
    Mobs that are hard when you are the right level are still easy when you are downleveled in any system I ever seen, the difference is that they aren't grey and could kill you if you play poorly enough.

    And don't bring logic into the leveling mechanics, you can beat dragons in a zone at the high end of it so you move to the low end of next zone and have problem with goblins.

    If you want immersion you probably should get rid of levels altogether or at least drop the powergap between noobs and vets like there was no tomorrow.

    Realistically, how many ill trained militia fighters do you think it takes to defeat a master? 5? 12? Certainly no-one could be no more then 20, doesn't matter if they are Miamoto Musashi, William Wallace,  Richard Lionheart or whoever.

    In a MMO a max level character can kill a thousand lvl 1s in the same fight without any effort or risk at all. If you are talking silly it is strange that you didn't mention that part.

    Grey mobs don't drop anything because the crap they have basically is below your character to even care about, the illogical part is the carrying capacity and how much vendortrash we pick up.

    Logic? ROTFL
    how many mobs of any type do you think could get at that master at once?  Lets say 10.  If that master can take 10 at once then he can take 1000 until fatigue is a factor.

    And anyway this is a game, everyone knows and has come to accept how it works.  Unless games are going to release once and never add any new content, you have to accept how this works.  Scaling has too many downsides and removes player choice.  I'd be somewhat ok with an option to turn zone scaling on if you wish, but dont force the rest of us to fight same difficulty mobs with the difficulty set at a lowest common denominator (too low) throughout the game. 

    Let us chose to step up to higher lvl mobs.  Players have always had the ability to adjust their difficulty, scaling removes that.  Easy mode leveling is not entirely the fault of the game as some have suggested.  

    No way. There are historical sources about people taking down more then a few opponent themselves but I can't think of anyone ever taking down more then 14 opponents. It is not only fatique, you also will take hits slowing you down and bleeding you dry.

    Even facing them 1 at a time in a door wouldn't work. If it was logical someone would have done it in the several thousands of years in recorded history. Also, you don't seem to get how taxing a swordfight actually is. There are a few historical records of duels in full plate that gone on for 30 minutes  but no master could defeat that many opponents in that time, only Groo can do that.

    And having the insane powergap is certainly not a must, most pen and paper RPGs have way lower powergaps (like Vampire, Shadowrun, R.I.F.T.S, Warhammer fantasy RPG, Chaosiums BRP/CoC)... While D&D/Pathfinder are the most popular I have a feeling that there are more people enjoying game with lower powergaps if you add them together.

    MMOs are actually far worse then the worst P&P system (that would be Pathfinder) powergapwise. It is fine that some MMOs are that way but there honestly is little choice and lower powergap can actually be fun as well, it requires more tactics and strategy but is still very rewarding. 


    As for scaling: Why would you go back to lower level zones when you outlevel them in a regular MMO? There is no reason besides possibly to farm low level crafting mats so the only thing scaling gives you is the possibility to revisit those zones and get something out of it, something you can skip if you don't want to.

    Or do you actually play grey zones?
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