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  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    There is no 14 days refund thing in the EU for digital products. There was in the 90s for Germany called the "teleabsatzgesetz".

    But in the EU you can always refund an digital item until it is delivered as advertised.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    ermh this is just a amendment the actual law says:

    Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 on consumer rights, amending Council Directive 93/13/EEC and Directive 1999/44/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council and repealing Council Directive 85/577/EEC and Directive 97/7/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council Text with EEA relevance
    (which includes your amendment BTW)

    Updated : 31/01/2018

    14 days to cancel and return purchases made outside shops (online, by phone or mail order)

    In the EU you have the right to return these purchases within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.

    The 14-day "cooling off" period does not apply to all purchases. Some of the exemptions are:

    • plane and train tickets, as well as concert tickets, hotel bookings, car rental reservations and catering services for specific dates
    • goods and drinks delivered to you by regular delivery – for example delivery by a milkman.
    • goods made to order or clearly personalised – such as a tailor-made suit
    • sealed audio, video or computer software, such as DVDs, which you have unsealed upon receipt.
    • online digital content, if you have already started downloading or streaming it
    • goods bought from a private individual rather than a company
    • urgent repairs and maintenance contracts – if you call a plumber to repair a leaking shower, you can't cancel the work once you have agreed on the price of the service.
    Oh yeah it's the cooling down period I mixed that, but that is what Valve uses to make what their TOS says stand, by making you agree to the waiving when you purchase. So that digital download is provided immediately but you refund right is gone, Valve instead replaces it with their own policy.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    The Federal Trade Commission stepped in and forced CiG to give refunds so yea, they're consumers in the USA too.

    That's why there are a ton of "I've successfully gotten my refund!" stories (even if it sometimes takes months of CiG stalling) compared to the nonexistance of people being completely denied their refunds so long as they put up with the stalling.  No matter what CiG's ToS says and their efforts to update it to paint the backers as non-consumers, the law is pretty clear on these sorts of things and trumps the ToS, and CiG knows this (after learning it the hard way). Doesn't stop them from trying to scare people away from asking for a refund with ToS changes, of course.
    Funny that you skip over the fact that CIG was giving refunds without fuss for three years, making it sounds as if CIG never voluntarily gave refunds.

    One might expect that people have made up their mind after three years whether they want a game or not.


    Have fun

    Funny that you skip over the fact that CIG loved to deny refunds to most who asked stating that their pledge had been fulfilled which is bullshit. They changed their tune fast enough when threatened with legal action and the government stepping in.
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    MaxBacon said:
    ermh this is just a amendment the actual law says:

    Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 on consumer rights, amending Council Directive 93/13/EEC and Directive 1999/44/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council and repealing Council Directive 85/577/EEC and Directive 97/7/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council Text with EEA relevance
    (which includes your amendment BTW)

    Updated : 31/01/2018

    14 days to cancel and return purchases made outside shops (online, by phone or mail order)

    In the EU you have the right to return these purchases within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.

    The 14-day "cooling off" period does not apply to all purchases. Some of the exemptions are:

    • plane and train tickets, as well as concert tickets, hotel bookings, car rental reservations and catering services for specific dates
    • goods and drinks delivered to you by regular delivery – for example delivery by a milkman.
    • goods made to order or clearly personalised – such as a tailor-made suit
    • sealed audio, video or computer software, such as DVDs, which you have unsealed upon receipt.
    • online digital content, if you have already started downloading or streaming it
    • goods bought from a private individual rather than a company
    • urgent repairs and maintenance contracts – if you call a plumber to repair a leaking shower, you can't cancel the work once you have agreed on the price of the service.
    Oh yeah it's the cooling down period I mixed that, but that is what Valve uses to make what their TOS says stand, by making you agree to the waiving when you purchase. So that digital download is provided immediately but you refund right is gone, Valve instead replaces it with their own policy.
    Fortunately for the germans the valve rule is more consumer friendly than the law :) I have to try games out very often and though to lower struggle with the FED I just refund bad games.
    The Valve 2weeks/2hours rule is an automatic process, if there are any problems after this period you can get a refund if you have reasonable arguments.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    Fortunately for the germans the valve rule is more consumer friendly than the law :) I have to try games out very often and though to lower struggle with the FED I just refund bad games.
    The Valve 2weeks/2hours rule is an automatic process, if there are any problems after this period you can get a refund if you have reasonable arguments.
    Yeah but only recently it became like that, when they were "NO REFUNDS, EVAH!" for all those years not even Australians were getting past that wall.

    But the point is when we talk about EU, if Valve wanted they could just say no refunds to Europeans because we would accept the waiver on purchase to play the game immediately.

    Black Desert Online, for example, does this, I think they still do, I remember accepting a waiver on the game launcher and I couldn't launch the game without accepting it. 
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    MaxBacon said:
    Fortunately for the germans the valve rule is more consumer friendly than the law :) I have to try games out very often and though to lower struggle with the FED I just refund bad games.
    The Valve 2weeks/2hours rule is an automatic process, if there are any problems after this period you can get a refund if you have reasonable arguments.
    Yeah but only recently it became like that, when they were "NO REFUNDS, EVAH!" for all those years not even Australians were getting past that wall.

    But the point is when we talk about EU, if Valve wanted they could just say no refunds to Europeans because we would accept the waiver on purchase to play the game immediately.

    Black Desert Online, for example, does this, I think they still do, I remember accepting a waiver on the game launcher and I couldn't launch the game without accepting it. 
    Yes that's correct Valve lost a lawsuit in Australia so they had to change it.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,229
    Kefo said:
    Funny that you skip over the fact that CIG loved to deny refunds to most who asked stating that their pledge had been fulfilled which is bullshit. They changed their tune fast enough when threatened with legal action and the government stepping in.
    I skipped over nothing. I was talking about the first three years.

    You are talking about a later period. And frankly, i can understand CIG ... if someone does not know after 5 years if he wants his CROWDFUNDING money back or not (knowing full well that a significant amount of that money will have been spent for programmer wages etc.), then IMHO he deserves jumping through a few hoops before he gets his refund.

    And the government did not "step in". A few amicable letters with requests for information from a consumer protection agency were exchanged and refunds granted in all those cases. There may even be some links to those in some thread here some time ago. No government agency ordered CIG to do anything. 

    But feel free to post any such government issued declarations against CIG here. If they exist.


    Have fun
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited February 2018
    gervaise1 said:
     

    <snip>  The backers loaned them the money <snip>    
    Did they?

    Serious - and one of the key - questions. 

    If they are investors who have loaned money then one set of laws applies - depending which countries are involved. And some rights are provided - probably not as much as you think but some rights.

    If they are investors though they are not consumers and have not bought anything. 

    If they are consumers though they have no more right to "see the books" than they would have to e.g. see Zenimax's books if they bought a copy of ESO. (Legal opinion seems to be tending towards backers being consumers but its not clear.)

    (There's another key question about the status of the entity raising the money as well.) 

    As I have said before - unless there is out and out fraud involved - the legal framework around crowdfunding is still "fuzzy". 

    Well that is a good point, and one I did not consider.  Are the pledgers investors or simply consumers.  I was looking at them more as investors.  But, this is a great point.  What if, by pledging, you received nothing but a profit of the game or toy or whatever else is on Kickstarter?  Then, the people get their money back (maybe), and maybe they get double their money back and can buy the game with it.  :)

    @CrazyKanuk: I did not know about the Escapist claims.  So my bad.  
    Regarding to EU and AUS law they are 100% consumers.  Don't know how it works out in USA
    Agree. Everything I have read suggests that - in the EU at any rate - this is the case. The key being that (in general) backers will fail the definition of what a "professional investor" is and will therefore be classed as "consumers" and afforded the applicable consumer protection.

    The January 2017 EU paper into crowdfunding actually discussed the main forms of crowd funding namely: donation-based; consumer-based; lender based; equity-based  so for anyone who is interested this is the link: 

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/595882/EPRS_BRI(2017)595882_EN.pdf

    Edit: link not working, re-pasted it as well so anyone interested will have to cut and paste sadly.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    Kefo said:
    Funny that you skip over the fact that CIG loved to deny refunds to most who asked stating that their pledge had been fulfilled which is bullshit. They changed their tune fast enough when threatened with legal action and the government stepping in.
    I skipped over nothing. I was talking about the first three years.

    You are talking about a later period. And frankly, i can understand CIG ... if someone does not know after 5 years if he wants his CROWDFUNDING money back or not (knowing full well that a significant amount of that money will have been spent for programmer wages etc.), then IMHO he deserves jumping through a few hoops before he gets his refund.

    And the government did not "step in". A few amicable letters with requests for information from a consumer protection agency were exchanged and refunds granted in all those cases. There may even be some links to those in some thread here some time ago. No government agency ordered CIG to do anything. 

    But feel free to post any such government issued declarations against CIG here. If they exist.


    Have fun
    Lol there should be no hoops to jump through. Product hasn’t been delivered yet so money is returned without question and not the bullshit excuses CIG gives.


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited February 2018
    Kefo said:
    Lol there should be no hoops to jump through. Product hasn’t been delivered yet so money is returned without question and not the bullshit excuses CIG gives.
    Yeah just like Crowfall does, oh wait.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    Lol there should be no hoops to jump through. Product hasn’t been delivered yet so money is returned without question and not the bullshit excuses CIG gives.
    Yeah just like Crowfall does, oh wait. (Paraphrasing here since Max did an edit to try and save face) looks like they are more strict then CIG is lol.
    3rd sentence in

    The unofficial reality is that the studio has been taking a “no questions asked” policy toward refunds and granting them as requested. 

    Looks like you tried to edit to save face because you didn’t read what you posted
    MaxBacon
  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 1,061
    dont buy it
    kikoodutroa8Babuinix

    IMPORTANT:  Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING.  Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally.  If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead.  I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING.  Thank you.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    Kefo said:
    3rd sentence in

    The unofficial reality is that the studio has been taking a “no questions asked” policy toward refunds and granting them as requested. 

    Looks like you tried to edit to save face because you didn’t read what you posted
    The same thing with CIG, kept them up but obviously the more the project is complete the closed up approach is taken about it, when stuff as SQ42 releases it's just obvious it will get even stricter, same as it happens with Crowfall that now doesn't give them even though it's not released.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    3rd sentence in

    The unofficial reality is that the studio has been taking a “no questions asked” policy toward refunds and granting them as requested. 

    Looks like you tried to edit to save face because you didn’t read what you posted
    The same thing with CIG, kept them up but obviously the more the project is complete the closed up approach is taken about it, when stuff as SQ42 releases it's just obvious it will get even stricter, same as it happens with Crowfall that now doesn't give them even though it's not released.
    The article linked in that article just takes you to their newsroom. You have anything definitive that says they are stricter now or just going off something someone else said?
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    Kefo said:
    The article linked in that article just takes you to their newsroom. You have anything definitive that says they are stricter now or just going off something someone else said?
    Of course yes, no refunds, and it has been like that for years now.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    The article linked in that article just takes you to their newsroom. You have anything definitive that says they are stricter now or just going off something someone else said?
    Of course yes, no refunds, and it has been like that for years now.
    Why do I get the feeling you’re talking out of your ass lol
    MaxBacon
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,045

    Most reasonable people realized this, but there are some who don't understand what funding a game entails. They seem to expect money in product out.


    If it wasn't already clear before this should help.

  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,511
    Babuinix said:

    Most reasonable people realized this, but there are some who don't understand what funding a game entails. They seem to expect money in product out.


    If it wasn't already clear before this should help.

    Aka : Thanks for your money! Remember the promises we made when you "pledge"? Well , they are exactly what the word is : "Promises" ( Hahahah ) .

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,045
    IceAge said:
    Babuinix said:

    Most reasonable people realized this, but there are some who don't understand what funding a game entails. They seem to expect money in product out.


    If it wasn't already clear before this should help.

    Aka : Thanks for your money! Remember the promises we made when you "pledge"? Well , they are exactly what the word is : "Promises" ( Hahahah ) .
    What promises? The only one that I could think of would be to make the best space sim game(s) possible...
  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,511
    edited February 2018
    Babuinix said:
    IceAge said:
    Babuinix said:

    Most reasonable people realized this, but there are some who don't understand what funding a game entails. They seem to expect money in product out.


    If it wasn't already clear before this should help.

    Aka : Thanks for your money! Remember the promises we made when you "pledge"? Well , they are exactly what the word is : "Promises" ( Hahahah ) .
    What promises? The only one that I could think of would be to make the best space sim game(s) possible...
    "Answer the Call ( 2016 ) - Pledge Now" ( to name 1..."little" thing ) , ring a bell ?

    About the "best space sim game(s) possible" ... 2050 is calling you. Will you Answer the Call ?

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,045
    edited February 2018
    And again... what promises?

    In case you haven't noticed most games get delayed doesn't mean that dev's broke "promises"... ;)
  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,511
    Babuinix said:
    And again... what promises?

    In case you haven't noticed most games get delayed doesn't mean that dev's broke "promises"... ;)
    When you show your audience a big image at the end of a trailer, saying that the game is coming in 2016 and "donate now" message , that's more then broken promises, that's a big fucking scam ( we are in 2018 now, just so you know ).

    Oh and btw, most games gets delayed ON THEIR FUCKING OWN BUDGET. There you go. That is for you to learn to make a difference between most games and your beloved "game" , because I can't call SC nor Squad 42 a game.

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,045
    A pledge is a pledge, not buying a complete product, if you have problems with waiting don't crowdfund and wait for the game's release before buying it.

    And it is CIG funding and ultimately it's their call when to release and what to release.

    Again if you have problems with waiting for crowdfunded projects simply don't pledge...
  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,511
    Babuinix said:
    A pledge is a pledge, not buying a complete product, if you have problems with waiting don't crowdfund and wait for the game's release before buying it.

    And it is CIG funding and ultimately it's their call when to release and what to release.

    Again if you have problems with waiting for crowdfunded projects simply don't pledge...
    Is that your explication ? Wow man :) Is not CIG Funding, it's people funding , please learn to understand that. 

    I have no problem in ..pledging , since I never pledge. I have a problem with lies , especially when someone is tooking "mass money from people" and lies about release dates, release content, and such. 

    So again. Is people money , is not CIG money. 

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,045
    It is CIG money. Backers pledge their money to CIG it becomes part of CIG budget.
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