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RNGeesus

AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member UncommonPosts: 4,112
One thing I enjoy about "old school" games is the "randomness factor." Not everything is "automatic." While I get mad and yell at my PC often, RNG (random number generation) adds extra excitement for me as I play. I think this is one of the biggest divides between old and new games/players.

"I'm looking right at him! How can I miss?" I've wondered the same thing myself many times, but realize that video games can't show you everything that's going on in a fight (or crafting, or whatever), and accept that "something" happened to cause me to miss or fail. As technology has grown, more and more "actions" can be shown, but it will be awhile before we have to take windage into our ranged attacks.

I miss spell failures big time. Magic is a powerful force that is "said to be" not easily controlled. Why does it seem so easy to control (no failures at all) in games these days? It adds that extra "Oh SHIT!!" moment that gets you thinking quickly about how to recover from that failure.

When I play XCom 2 (or other RNG based games), I have many a moment of "90% chance to hit and you MISS!?!", but equally, when a squaddie hits a 50% shot that saves their teammate, I'm equally pleased. Or if I move a soldier and they take the covering fire from the aliens and make it through unscathed, I'm just as happy as I am mad when they get shot down and die.

For me, it is the range of emotions I go through when RNG is involved, instead of the "automatic success" that gets so boring after a time. that makes it so special for me. In order to fully enjoy the great times and moments in games (and life), one needs utter failures to contrast them to, right?

What are your own thoughts on RNG? (Try to keep it civil :) )

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

EponyxDamor

Comments

  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 591
    I really like your take on RNG in XCOM2; I've actually had the same experience, myself.

    RNG isn't always bad in terms of game play, but when it is, it tends to stick out more so than when it is good.

    For me, good RNG is RNG that I don't notice.
    AlBQuirkyGorwe
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member RarePosts: 2,395
    Randomness can be achieved in ways other than a number generator.

    A simulation that follows strict physical laws very quickly approaches randomness above a certain complexity level.  Take the following duel for example:



    No number generators used, and yet there is clearly a lot of "randomness" going on.  It feels very much like there is a chance factor.

    Yes, landing the last shot can be very emotional as well.
    AlBQuirky

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 131 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member UncommonPosts: 4,112
    For me, good RNG is RNG that I don't notice.
    How do you mean? Wouldn't any failure make RNG noticeable? Or is that just me? :lol:

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 591
    edited January 12
    AlBQuirky said:
    For me, good RNG is RNG that I don't notice.
    How do you mean? Wouldn't any failure make RNG noticeable? Or is that just me? :lol:
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "failure". Can you elaborate a bit?

    To elaborate a bit on my part ...

    What I mean is that I don't notice the RNG during my game play. It doesn't distract me from the game or activity I am trying to enjoy. RNG that doesn't disguise itself is RNG that I notice. For instance, loot boxes. That isn't good RNG to me, because I can immediately identify it as such. The only purpose it serves is to be RNG for the sake of RNG. There are no game play elements involved; simply click the box (pull the lever) and get a payout.

    Another example -- in BnS there are wheels you can spin by using tokens you gather from enemies in order to receive a reward. The RNG isn't disguised at all, though. While I do understand this accurately represents what would normally be called a "loot table", it really draws you out of the game and distracts from the game.

    Now, I really enjoy looters, such as D3, PoE, Warframe, etc. And all of those games heavily rely on RNG in their game play, especially for rewards. However, I don't notice them as much because they aren't obtrusive or require me to access separate menus to access my rewards or to "pull a lever".
    Post edited by EponyxDamor on
  • WraithoneWraithone Member UncommonPosts: 3,783
    If you want fun with RN Gesus, try this  ^^


    EponyxDamorAlBQuirkyPhaserlightGorweCryomatrix
    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member UncommonPosts: 4,112
    Randomness can be achieved in ways other than a number generator.

    A simulation that follows strict physical laws very quickly approaches randomness above a certain complexity level.  Take the following duel for example:

    [YouTube link removed by AlBQuirky for "neatness."]

    No number generators used, and yet there is clearly a lot of "randomness" going on.  It feels very much like there is a chance factor.

    Yes, landing the last shot can be very emotional as well.
    That's skill and strategy, though, in PvP(?). Making use of one's surroundings is a great game mechanic and your human opponent may do unexpected things that may create excitement. In single player games, where computer AI rarely misses or does the unexpected, RNG is a must for me. You aim right, you hit.

    You do have a point that this can also be exciting, but did your ship's guns ever misfire? I guess it's like "blocking" mechanics when clicked. I have yet to see a game "show" a riposte maneuver in melee. Granted, I have not played every game ever made :)

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy more "actiony" combat, too. Nothing like shield bashing the baddie in Skyrim, interrupting their power attack. But again, that's automatic, if the aim and timing is right. There is no "outside influences" taken into account :)

    PS: Cool video. I enjoyed watching that :)
    Phaserlight

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member UncommonPosts: 4,112
    AlBQuirky said:
    For me, good RNG is RNG that I don't notice.
    How do you mean? Wouldn't any failure make RNG noticeable? Or is that just me? :lol:
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "failure". Can you elaborate a bit?

    To elaborate a bit on my part ...

    What I mean is that I don't notice the RNG during my game play. It doesn't distract me from the game or activity I am trying to enjoy. RNG that doesn't disguise itself is RNG that I notice. For instance, loot boxes. That isn't good RNG to me, because I can immediately identify it as such. The only purpose it serves is to be RNG for the sake of RNG. There are no game play elements involved; simply click the box (pull the lever) and get a payout.

    Another example -- in BnS there are wheels you can spin by using tokens you gather from enemies in order to receive a reward. The RNG isn't disguised at all, though. While I do understand this accurately represents what would normally be called a "loot table", it really draws you out of the game and distracts from the game.

    Now, I really enjoy looters, such as D3, PoE, Warframe, etc. And all of those games heavily rely on RNG in their game play, especially for rewards. However, I don't notice them as much because they aren't obtrusive or require me to access separate menus to access my rewards or to "pull a lever".
    It sounds like your RNG seems "out of the game" to me, with talk of lootboxes and wheel spins. Am I guessing right?

    "Failure", for me, is that random chance within the gameplay (not as rewards or chance games) that lets you know, there's a chance to fail, or not succeed. It is missing an attack, having a  crafting try blow up and you lose you materials, casting a spell and it miscues.

    I was confused because RNG is noticeable to me whenever I fail at something (using my character's skills) I attempt within the game, not a random loot table that gives random loot. It's hard for me to imagine a random mechanic within a game that isn't "noticeable."

    I hope that clears up my end :)
    EponyxDamor

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 591
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    For me, good RNG is RNG that I don't notice.
    How do you mean? Wouldn't any failure make RNG noticeable? Or is that just me? :lol:
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "failure". Can you elaborate a bit?

    To elaborate a bit on my part ...

    What I mean is that I don't notice the RNG during my game play. It doesn't distract me from the game or activity I am trying to enjoy. RNG that doesn't disguise itself is RNG that I notice. For instance, loot boxes. That isn't good RNG to me, because I can immediately identify it as such. The only purpose it serves is to be RNG for the sake of RNG. There are no game play elements involved; simply click the box (pull the lever) and get a payout.

    Another example -- in BnS there are wheels you can spin by using tokens you gather from enemies in order to receive a reward. The RNG isn't disguised at all, though. While I do understand this accurately represents what would normally be called a "loot table", it really draws you out of the game and distracts from the game.

    Now, I really enjoy looters, such as D3, PoE, Warframe, etc. And all of those games heavily rely on RNG in their game play, especially for rewards. However, I don't notice them as much because they aren't obtrusive or require me to access separate menus to access my rewards or to "pull a lever".
    It sounds like your RNG seems "out of the game" to me, with talk of lootboxes and wheel spins. Am I guessing right?

    "Failure", for me, is that random chance within the gameplay (not as rewards or chance games) that lets you know, there's a chance to fail, or not succeed. It is missing an attack, having a  crafting try blow up and you lose you materials, casting a spell and it miscues.

    I was confused because RNG is noticeable to me whenever I fail at something (using my character's skills) I attempt within the game, not a random loot table that gives random loot. It's hard for me to imagine a random mechanic within a game that isn't "noticeable."

    I hope that clears up my end :)
    If we're strictly looking at RNG in terms of succeed/failure, I have learned to accept that I likely only notice them more often when the outcome doesn't match the odds. As you gave the example with XCOM's 90% chance to hit ... There's still a 10% chance you'll miss. And in reality, you probably forgot the other 9 times you actually hit them, but only noticed the 1 time you missed.

    FFXIV was similar with gathering. At times, I'd have a 99% chance to successfully gather an item, only to fail 3-4 times in a row. I'd scratch my head, laugh, and then look into my inventory to see that I had successfully gathered 99% of my other attempts. Its just RNG being RNG, and I really only noticed it when the outcome didn't necessarily match the odds; I didn't notice it the other 99 times that I successfully gathered the item.
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member UncommonPosts: 4,112
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    For me, good RNG is RNG that I don't notice.
    How do you mean? Wouldn't any failure make RNG noticeable? Or is that just me? :lol:
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "failure". Can you elaborate a bit?

    To elaborate a bit on my part ...

    What I mean is that I don't notice the RNG during my game play. It doesn't distract me from the game or activity I am trying to enjoy. RNG that doesn't disguise itself is RNG that I notice. For instance, loot boxes. That isn't good RNG to me, because I can immediately identify it as such. The only purpose it serves is to be RNG for the sake of RNG. There are no game play elements involved; simply click the box (pull the lever) and get a payout.

    Another example -- in BnS there are wheels you can spin by using tokens you gather from enemies in order to receive a reward. The RNG isn't disguised at all, though. While I do understand this accurately represents what would normally be called a "loot table", it really draws you out of the game and distracts from the game.

    Now, I really enjoy looters, such as D3, PoE, Warframe, etc. And all of those games heavily rely on RNG in their game play, especially for rewards. However, I don't notice them as much because they aren't obtrusive or require me to access separate menus to access my rewards or to "pull a lever".
    It sounds like your RNG seems "out of the game" to me, with talk of lootboxes and wheel spins. Am I guessing right?

    "Failure", for me, is that random chance within the gameplay (not as rewards or chance games) that lets you know, there's a chance to fail, or not succeed. It is missing an attack, having a  crafting try blow up and you lose you materials, casting a spell and it miscues.

    I was confused because RNG is noticeable to me whenever I fail at something (using my character's skills) I attempt within the game, not a random loot table that gives random loot. It's hard for me to imagine a random mechanic within a game that isn't "noticeable."

    I hope that clears up my end :)
    If we're strictly looking at RNG in terms of succeed/failure, I have learned to accept that I likely only notice them more often when the outcome doesn't match the odds. As you gave the example with XCOM's 90% chance to hit ... There's still a 10% chance you'll miss. And in reality, you probably forgot the other 9 times you actually hit them, but only noticed the 1 time you missed.

    FFXIV was similar with gathering. At times, I'd have a 99% chance to successfully gather an item, only to fail 3-4 times in a row. I'd scratch my head, laugh, and then look into my inventory to see that I had successfully gathered 99% of my other attempts. Its just RNG being RNG, and I really only noticed it when the outcome didn't necessarily match the odds; I didn't notice it the other 99 times that I successfully gathered the item.
    Yes, I agree. It is the few "high percentage" rolls that fail that I notice instead of the many "high percentage" that succeeds. Or... the "low to middle percentage" rolls that succeed :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • GorweGorwe Member RarePosts: 4,843
    edited January 15
    Ah yes. I've nothing against a bit of RNG, but the way today's games handle it(see: loot in Vermintide)...god damn it, fuck off!

    Keep in mind, game being same old, same old and stale is very bad too. See: Dark Souls. When you realize that EVERYTHING is the SAME(except HP numbers) no matter the difficulty, no matter how many times you've played it...starts getting on nerves tbh.

    edit: I prefer when a game has both constant and dynamic elements. I don't want RNG to fuck with hit rates etc(or if there is a RNG involved, I want to know the details ; less obscured, the better) or anything of the like. But RNG is free to determine enemies, sidequests(more like side tasks, but whatever) etc.

    As always:

    Sola dosis facit venenum
    Post edited by Gorwe on
    AlBQuirky
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