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Every Time Star Citizen Gets a New Update Everyone Forgets What an Alpha is

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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited January 2018
    CIG itself is hyping their releases up with video demos of features in a closed dev environment and tend to release them to public either buggy or not existant (wan't the sand worm demo supposed to be 3.0?).
    Show me the features demoed that aren't part of 3.0, and show me those supposed bug-free 3.0 demos they did. And no, the worm demo was not part of 3.0, neither any update or release was given to that (hence labeled as tech demo).

    Alpha means get the game mechanic stable and playable then test if its working out - if done integrate the next feature. CIG is integrating half baked stuff on half baked other stuff - the depth of the bugs has reached a critical mass a long time ago, fixing underlying systems will break other stuff above it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iterative_and_incremental_development

    It's not waterfall development.
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    That example wasn't directed at SC in specific, it just used the territory control as an example of an advantage some players would have in a territory control game if they got first pick at the land available.  It was to illustrate why one of the general criteria employed to determine whether one should consider the project as a released product is when a persistent headstart is given to players for purchasing.
    Please accept my humble apology. I should have read it all in context.
  • Pingu2012Pingu2012 Member UncommonPosts: 34
    edited January 2018
    Orinori said:
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    ... 

    alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant.

    ...


    Nonsense.

    No-one pays you for YOU to have a privilege "Here, please let me pay you to upgrade to first class..."

    And this isn't a privilege in this case, its a method for funding development. 

    People can decide for themselves if they're getting their money's worth from the thing they bought. If not, let them refund, and they have nothing to complain about.
    Do you own the plane? are they your staff? can you be forcibly removed from that plane at any time? Yes it is a privileged granted to you. Also if a company pays you for your time, they can also remove you at any time. A privilege granted.

    Just because Star Citizen exists does not grant you the right to access it's alpha. You pay money, but you are paying for the privilege of access granted to you by the company. They can revoke that access at any time, your claim for a refund after that is another case entirely.

    The fact that the funds received are used for development is an aside. They could ask for same funds for development without providing any access until the game is finished. Just because they choose not to as they are likely to raise greater funds is irrelevant. 

    1. No company pays YOU for YOU to be upgraded.

    2. Yes you are paying...but since this is a public sale its not really a privilege (unless you consider every product/service sold to you to be a privilege). You can still be removed from any service for breaking the service terms anyway.

    3. The whole purpose of the funds is to fund development - its not an aside at all its the main thrust. And they solicit these funds by offering access for them. If they didn't then we wouldn't have this discussion.

    Edit: Seriously? You seriously want to claim the point of the donations is not for development??? Why?
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    MaxBacon said:
    CIG itself is hyping their releases up with video demos of features in a closed dev environment and tend to release them to public either buggy or not existant (wan't the sand worm demo supposed to be 3.0?).
    Show me the features demoed that aren't part of 3.0, and show me those supposed bug-free 3.0 demos they did. And no, the worm demo was not part of 3.0, neither any update or release was given to that (hence labeled as tech demo).

    Alpha means get the game mechanic stable and playable then test if its working out - if done integrate the next feature. CIG is integrating half baked stuff on half baked other stuff - the depth of the bugs has reached a critical mass a long time ago, fixing underlying systems will break other stuff above it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iterative_and_incremental_development

    It's not waterfall development.
    There are videos of every feature but here is a nice overlook
     https://imgur.com/Faeo0Y7

    I doesn't matter if they are doing iterative, waterfall or any other system. None of this will work if you try to build your stuff on quicksand. They have reached a point where the codebase is unfixable.
    Rhime

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited January 2018
    Pingu2012 said:
    1. No company pays YOU for YOU to be upgraded.

    2. Yes you are paying...but since this is a public sale its not really a privilege (unless you consider every product/service sold to you to be a privilege). You can still be removed from any service for breaking the service terms anyway.

    3. The whole purpose of the funds is to fund development - its not an aside at all its the main thrust. And they solicit these funds by offering access for them. If they didn't then we wouldn't have this discussion.

    Edit: Seriously? You seriously want to claim the point of the donations is not for development??? Why?
    1. Yes a company can pay YOU to be upgraded and does sometimes happen depending on the context of the situation even though it is completely irrelevant to whether it is a privilege or not.

    2. You do not need to break ToS to be removed. You have no divine right to access and access can be revoked at any time. This is not your property. Access is a privilege.

    3. access to the alpha is a privilege granted. they could have asked for funding and provided no access until launch (i am not saying deny access, i am saying market with no access until launch). The funding would still be for development. Why even claim I would say it is not, please read and take time to understand before replying, this isn't my job to explain simple concepts. Providing access before launch is a mutually beneficial position however that access can be revoked at any time.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    There are videos of every feature but here is a nice overlook
     https://imgur.com/Faeo0Y7

    I doesn't matter if they are doing iterative, waterfall or any other system. None of this will work if you try to build your stuff on quicksand. They have reached a point where the codebase is unfixable.
    That's not 3.0, that included the roadmaps 3.1 and 3.2.

    That's one excuse and you know it, when 3.0 fundamentally refactors so much technology that was developed and backend systems all merged up on the build, of course it would be a nightmare to work through make it all work together, and they did, it works, it needs more work but that's the deal.  And it's also no boogie man as to why with the time it would take they decided to push the base and do a follow-up patch; that's why 3.1 and the next months now is for polish and optimization work upon that.

    Even in our small software projects, when there is a major refactor of code, it's always messy at first, so we do a similar thing, submit the core working base, then do follow up a pass to polish it up. That may be why I understand what they are doing here.
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    edited January 2018
    Yea, several programmer guys looked into the network traffic Star Citizen was generating on the something awful forums (as well as a separate group of people looking into it on the frontier forums) and apparently the networking routing code is... well, something awful.  It's apparently not the type of thing that's really fixable without tearing almost everything down and starting from scratch.

    Something to do with how the farthest person away gets the server updates first and then second farthest, along with other inefficiencies like how every time a multi-object entity is called into existence (such as any spaceship where all the doors, innards, hangers, etc, are all separate objects), they conflict with each other.

    Or something like that.  I'm not a programmer myself (I'm an accountant), although I at least know a bit about how the process is supposed to work from my own job experience at a certain company.

    At any rate, they all agreed that it's the sort of thing that, while you can program some minor tricks to optimize it a little, generally can't be improved on without rebuilding it from scratch, which would require scrapping all the code on top of it.

    Such is the life of network sphaghetti code, I guess.

    Whatever phase of development Star Citizen is in, it apparently skipped the part where you make sure you have a solid foundation first according to those guys.  Which I guess was to be expected.  CiG kinda had to skip to this in order to keep the hype machine going, but it clearly shows that something is just WRONG underneath and allegedly it's not something that's truly fixable anymore.

    The game structure has pretty much reached the limit of what it can support, and considering all the stuff that CiG is now legally obligated to add to the game on top of the stuff that's already there (which, as any rational person can tell, is already pushing the engine and the network to the limits and beyond) like the other big ships and tanks and land and persistence and content and more planets/stars/moons/cities/stations, that's not a good thing.

    Although you shouldn't really need a programmer looking into the network routing traffic to tell you that.  If you just actually think about it, you can consider how the game runs now and how buggy it is, and then begin to imagine how bad it'll get once they start adding in actual STUFF to the game (like land, tanks, content, etc) beyond simple fetch quests.  Sure, you can say "It's only alpha now!  Give them time!", but time for WHAT?  Bug fixing and optimizing what they have now?  Adding the stuff that was promised?  You think it's so easy for CiG to do BOTH of those without the server exploding?  Just how far detached from reality is THAT?  If the game is like this BEFORE adding land, tanks, more ships, more systems, more players, more content, and more EVERYTHING, how much time do you think they'll need before they can add all of that AND get it running at a decent frame rate? (although the servers will probably explode first).  But again, the worse part is that time won't help.  It's not time that's causing the game to be a framerate-blotched mess right now.  It's the very infrastructure of it.

    That's kinda what I meant when I said that at best, you can call this a tech demo.  Because thanks to having a faulty foundation in the first place, unless CiG tears it all down and rebuilds it with something able to support more than what you're looking at, it's not going to advance much more beyond this, unlike how an alpha is supposed to be able to advance into a beta.

    Really, compare it to the Alphas for other crowdfunded games we've seen like Ashes, etc.  Those alphas might not have as much content but they actually RUN SMOOTHLY, and do you know why?  BECAUSE MAKING SURE THE GAME CAN RUN SMOOTHLY IS SUPPOSED TO COME BEFORE ALPHA.  Once you start slapping together the "alpha" like CiG did, your ability to program the foundation of the game to make sure it runs smoothly becomes a LOT more restricted and downright impossible in parts.
    Turrican187MaxBaconArglebargleOctagon7711
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,536
    Orinori said:
    3. access to the alpha is a privilege granted. they could have asked for funding and provided no access until launch. The funding would still be for development. Why even claim I would say it is not, please read and take time to understand before replying, this isn't my job to explain simple concepts. Providing access before launch is a mutually beneficial position however that access can be revoked at any time.
    They could have also asked for funding and granted you no access at all.

    Also Steam could ask you for money without giving you any games in return.

    Bought Alpha access is no more or less a privilege than bought access to any other game.
     
  • Pingu2012Pingu2012 Member UncommonPosts: 34
    Orinori said:
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    ... 

    alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant.

    ...


    Nonsense.

    No-one pays you for YOU to have a privilege "Here, please let me pay you to upgrade to first class..."

    And this isn't a privilege in this case, its a method for funding development. 

    People can decide for themselves if they're getting their money's worth from the thing they bought. If not, let them refund, and they have nothing to complain about.
    Do you own the plane? are they your staff? can you be forcibly removed from that plane at any time? Yes it is a privileged granted to you. Also if a company pays you for your time, they can also remove you at any time. A privilege granted.

    Just because Star Citizen exists does not grant you the right to access it's alpha. You pay money, but you are paying for the privilege of access granted to you by the company. They can revoke that access at any time, your claim for a refund after that is another case entirely.

    The fact that the funds received are used for development is an aside. They could ask for same funds for development without providing any access until the game is finished. Just because they choose not to as they are likely to raise greater funds is irrelevant. 

    1. No company pays YOU for YOU to be upgraded.

    2. Yes you are paying...but since this is a public sale its not really a privilege (unless you consider every product/service sold to you to be a privilege). You can still be removed from any service for breaking the service terms anyway.

    3. The whole purpose of the funds is to fund development - its not an aside at all its the main thrust. And they solicit these funds by offering access for them. If they didn't then we wouldn't have this discussion.

    Edit: Seriously? You seriously want to claim the point of the donations is not for development??? Why?
    1. Yes a company can pay YOU to be upgraded and does sometimes happen depending on the context of the situation even though it is completely irrelevant to whether it is a privilege or not.

    2. You do not need to break ToS to be removed. You have no divine right to access and access can be revoked at any time. This is not your property. Access is a privilege.

    3. access to the alpha is a privilege granted. they could have asked for funding and provided no access until launch. The funding would still be for development. Why even claim I would say it is not, please read and take time to understand before replying, this isn't my job to explain simple concepts. Providing access before launch is a mutually beneficial position however that access can be revoked at any time.
    1. LOL whatever, we'll just disagree on this one

    2. The product IS your property, the alpha access is part of what you pay for. This isn't a special right, its a paid-for public offer. Evocati access is a privilege. Public Test Server...well...

    3. You said it was "an aside". Its the only purpose... try to keep up with your mental gymnastics, you just keep faceplanting.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited January 2018
    Tiamat64 said:
    ....
    The network engineers have explained multiple times that one of the large refactors ongoing is the network culling.

    Network culling was cut from 3.0 earlier last year and even so, it was still tested in one of the 3.0 PTU builds.

    Tiamat64 said:
     But again, the worse part is that time won't help.  It's not time that's causing the game to be a framerate-blotched mess right now.  It's the very infrastructure of it.
    No of course, time won't help, after all those engineers developing the network culling, refactoring serialization, creating the object containers (the streaming aspect of it as the base is already implemented),  and so on... the last thing they need is time!

    I think this month there will be a panel with the network engineers, you should tune in to learn some things.
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    Vrika said:
    Orinori said:
    3. access to the alpha is a privilege granted. they could have asked for funding and provided no access until launch. The funding would still be for development. Why even claim I would say it is not, please read and take time to understand before replying, this isn't my job to explain simple concepts. Providing access before launch is a mutually beneficial position however that access can be revoked at any time.
    They could have also asked for funding and granted you no access at all.

    Also Steam could ask you for money without giving you any games in return.

    Bought Alpha access is no more or less a privilege than bought access to any other game.
    "They could have also asked for funding and granted you no access at all." correct, but if they do grant you access it is a privilege granted.

    "Also Steam could ask you for money without giving you any games in return." Then no privilege of access would be granted.

    "Bought Alpha access is no more or less a privilege than bought access to any other game." Even the opportunity to buy is a privilege brought to you by the company, Just because the game exists in development does not give you a divine right of access to the game. Further to the purchase access to servers are also a privilege provided to you by the company, not a divine right. 

    really, that is last time.
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    ... 

    alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant.

    ...


    Nonsense.

    No-one pays you for YOU to have a privilege "Here, please let me pay you to upgrade to first class..."

    And this isn't a privilege in this case, its a method for funding development. 

    People can decide for themselves if they're getting their money's worth from the thing they bought. If not, let them refund, and they have nothing to complain about.
    Do you own the plane? are they your staff? can you be forcibly removed from that plane at any time? Yes it is a privileged granted to you. Also if a company pays you for your time, they can also remove you at any time. A privilege granted.

    Just because Star Citizen exists does not grant you the right to access it's alpha. You pay money, but you are paying for the privilege of access granted to you by the company. They can revoke that access at any time, your claim for a refund after that is another case entirely.

    The fact that the funds received are used for development is an aside. They could ask for same funds for development without providing any access until the game is finished. Just because they choose not to as they are likely to raise greater funds is irrelevant. 

    1. No company pays YOU for YOU to be upgraded.

    2. Yes you are paying...but since this is a public sale its not really a privilege (unless you consider every product/service sold to you to be a privilege). You can still be removed from any service for breaking the service terms anyway.

    3. The whole purpose of the funds is to fund development - its not an aside at all its the main thrust. And they solicit these funds by offering access for them. If they didn't then we wouldn't have this discussion.

    Edit: Seriously? You seriously want to claim the point of the donations is not for development??? Why?
    1. Yes a company can pay YOU to be upgraded and does sometimes happen depending on the context of the situation even though it is completely irrelevant to whether it is a privilege or not.

    2. You do not need to break ToS to be removed. You have no divine right to access and access can be revoked at any time. This is not your property. Access is a privilege.

    3. access to the alpha is a privilege granted. they could have asked for funding and provided no access until launch. The funding would still be for development. Why even claim I would say it is not, please read and take time to understand before replying, this isn't my job to explain simple concepts. Providing access before launch is a mutually beneficial position however that access can be revoked at any time.
    1. LOL whatever, we'll just disagree on this one

    2. The product IS your property, the alpha access is part of what you pay for. This isn't a special right, its a paid-for public offer. Evocati access is a privilege. Public Test Server...well...

    3. You said it was "an aside". Its the only purpose... try to keep up with your mental gymnastics, you just keep faceplanting.

    You seem to have zero knowledge of anything and struggle to follow logic. Thank you for the wonderful conversation. I hope you educate yourself soon so you can stop pestering me with nonsense. As almost all your posts to date have been focused on just that.
  • Pingu2012Pingu2012 Member UncommonPosts: 34
    Orinori said:
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    Pingu2012 said:
    Orinori said:
    ... 

    alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant.

    ...


    Nonsense.

    No-one pays you for YOU to have a privilege "Here, please let me pay you to upgrade to first class..."

    And this isn't a privilege in this case, its a method for funding development. 

    People can decide for themselves if they're getting their money's worth from the thing they bought. If not, let them refund, and they have nothing to complain about.
    Do you own the plane? are they your staff? can you be forcibly removed from that plane at any time? Yes it is a privileged granted to you. Also if a company pays you for your time, they can also remove you at any time. A privilege granted.

    Just because Star Citizen exists does not grant you the right to access it's alpha. You pay money, but you are paying for the privilege of access granted to you by the company. They can revoke that access at any time, your claim for a refund after that is another case entirely.

    The fact that the funds received are used for development is an aside. They could ask for same funds for development without providing any access until the game is finished. Just because they choose not to as they are likely to raise greater funds is irrelevant. 

    1. No company pays YOU for YOU to be upgraded.

    2. Yes you are paying...but since this is a public sale its not really a privilege (unless you consider every product/service sold to you to be a privilege). You can still be removed from any service for breaking the service terms anyway.

    3. The whole purpose of the funds is to fund development - its not an aside at all its the main thrust. And they solicit these funds by offering access for them. If they didn't then we wouldn't have this discussion.

    Edit: Seriously? You seriously want to claim the point of the donations is not for development??? Why?
    1. Yes a company can pay YOU to be upgraded and does sometimes happen depending on the context of the situation even though it is completely irrelevant to whether it is a privilege or not.

    2. You do not need to break ToS to be removed. You have no divine right to access and access can be revoked at any time. This is not your property. Access is a privilege.

    3. access to the alpha is a privilege granted. they could have asked for funding and provided no access until launch. The funding would still be for development. Why even claim I would say it is not, please read and take time to understand before replying, this isn't my job to explain simple concepts. Providing access before launch is a mutually beneficial position however that access can be revoked at any time.
    1. LOL whatever, we'll just disagree on this one

    2. The product IS your property, the alpha access is part of what you pay for. This isn't a special right, its a paid-for public offer. Evocati access is a privilege. Public Test Server...well...

    3. You said it was "an aside". Its the only purpose... try to keep up with your mental gymnastics, you just keep faceplanting.

    You seem to have zero knowledge of anything and struggle to follow logic. Thank you for the wonderful conversation. I hope you educate yourself soon so you can stop pestering me with nonsense. As almost all your posts to date have been focused on just that.
    By resorting to insults you've become the internet equivalent of a poo-flinging monkey.

    I'm moving on now, wash your hands before you eat eh?
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    Pingu2012 said:
    By resorting to insults you've become the internet equivalent of a poo-flinging monkey.

    I'm moving on now, wash your hands before you eat eh?
    These are observations, I am sorry if you found them insulting. 
  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,068
    edited January 2018
    Weird article. I didn't get the same impression from these forums. Where are people telling that SC is not alpha or are not understanding this?

    Pretty sure that most criticism is just falling over those stupid release estimations for updates and the fact that they are selling ships and lots way before even the game is OUT OF alpha. And how even though they release big updates, those big updates seem to be mostly about graphics and mechanics and less about game features (which you would expect from a game in alpha).

    You could even claim that this game is not even in alpha yet. It is mostly techdemo's so far.
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited January 2018
    and the fact that they are selling ships and lots way before even the game is OUT OF alpha.  
    I don't know how else crowdfunding is meant to work?


    You could even claim that this game is not even in alpha yet. It is mostly techdemo's so far.

    I got this from the wiki for dev cycles! 

    "Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. Alpha software may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version.[2] In general, external availability of alpha software is uncommon in proprietary software, while open source software often has publicly available alpha versions. The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete."

    so sounds like an alpha to me? but could have been written by a drunk hobo who has never even seen a computer, so I don't know :/ (but then how......)
    someforumguy
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,785
    edited January 2018
    Feels like a lot of people here really don't understand how money/business works on the basic level.

    CIG is a Business. They are selling a product (Access to a Game still in Development) 

    SC Alpha, SC Beta, SC Final, Are all Products. It does not matter what you think they are, this is what they are. Products sold by a Business.

    Some people say its a donation, Cool. Call it what you want. Doesn't change any of the facts. 

    If you give someone money and they give you a service or item, you have just traded cash for a product. In other words, you purchased something. For instance, if you buy internet access for your home, you don't own the internet but you do own the access point you paid for.

    That's yours. Its why you put a password on it. 

    Now let's say the same ISP says hey "Donate" 50.00 a month and we will give you access to the internet.

    That's the exact same thing as straight up buying it. They can call it Donation all day but you still gave them cash and they gave you a service.  You don't need a business degree to understand that. Its black and white. Did you buy it? Yes? Guess what you did just business congrats. 

    Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege its called Business.

    In business, you deal and trade products (items or services) for cash. Bottom line. The person who paid the cash isn't being granted a privilege. If that's the case it a privilege to purchase food, clothes, entertainment, a vehicle or a home. Those Industries make money from you. It would be a privilege only if they willingly gave it away to you for free. We all know SC isn't giving away a damn thing so..

    No. Buying access to a game, alpha, beta, or final isn't a privilege. It's called Business.
    They sold you a product bottom line. 

    Edit: spell check
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

    "What does it mean to be human? In a time when people's humanity is perennially called into question?"
    - Dr. Cornell West
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard


  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    MaxBacon said:
    CIG itself is hyping their releases up with video demos of features in a closed dev environment and tend to release them to public either buggy or not existant (wan't the sand worm demo supposed to be 3.0?).
    Show me the features demoed that aren't part of 3.0, and show me those supposed bug-free 3.0 demos they did. And no, the worm demo was not part of 3.0, neither any update or release was given to that (hence labeled as tech demo).


    Features advertised at CitizenCon 2014 but not delivered

    • Missile and countermeasure improvements
    • Advanced power management
    • Organizations 2.0 (with deep game integration)
    • Landing on ArcCorp

     

    Features advertised at CitizenCon 2015 but not delivered

    • Star Citizen HOTAS from Saitek (unlikely to ever happen after Logitech bought Saitek and Mad Catz went bankrupt)

     

    Features advertised at CitizenCon 2016 but not delivered

    • Refining and processing
    • Quantum interdiction
    • Escort
    • Salvage
    • Mercenary - covert operations
    • Rescue
    • Travel to multiple Star Systems
    • Exploration and discovery
    • Science and research

    MaxBacon
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited January 2018
    klash2def said:


    Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege its called Business.

    incorrect, try again. learn the meaning of words and the law. even to be offered an item to own is a privilege and can be revoked before accepted (never even mind the service which is even more obvious). but like i said, i am done with this, its crazy, you wrote an entire essay without having any clue as to what you are talking about.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited January 2018
    Talonsin said:
    Show me the features demoed that aren't part of 3.0, and show me those supposed bug-free 3.0 demos they did. And no, the worm demo was not part of 3.0, neither any update or release was given to that (hence labeled as tech demo).
    Refining and processing
    • Quantum interdiction
    • Escort
    • Salvage
    • Mercenary - covert operations
    • Rescue
    • Travel to multiple Star Systems
    • Exploration and discovery
    • Science and research
    lol one spin argument that dodges the question. Over that, attempting to mislead, not only posting what was not announced for 3.0, wrong information:

    • Quantum Interdiction was not to be on 3.0, yet it is now released.
    • Escort has been added to the types of missions 3.0 offers.
    • Missile and counter-measure stuff has been iterated on updates quite a while ago.
    • Power management has been around for quite a while and iterated over time, improvements on 3.0 as well.

    Hollow sensationalism.
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    Tiamat64 said:
    Yea, several programmer guys looked into the network traffic Star Citizen was generating on the something awful forums (as well as a separate group of people looking into it on the frontier forums) and apparently the networking routing code is... well, something awful.  It's apparently not the type of thing that's really fixable without tearing almost everything down and starting from scratch.

    Something to do with how the farthest person away gets the server updates first and then second farthest, along with other inefficiencies like how every time a multi-object entity is called into existence (such as any spaceship where all the doors, innards, hangers, etc, are all separate objects), they conflict with each other.

    Or something like that.  I'm not a programmer myself (I'm an accountant), although I at least know a bit about how the process is supposed to work from my own job experience at a certain company.

    At any rate, they all agreed that it's the sort of thing that, while you can program some minor tricks to optimize it a little, generally can't be improved on without rebuilding it from scratch, which would require scrapping all the code on top of it.

    Such is the life of network sphaghetti code, I guess.

    Whatever phase of development Star Citizen is in, it apparently skipped the part where you make sure you have a solid foundation first according to those guys.  Which I guess was to be expected.  CiG kinda had to skip to this in order to keep the hype machine going, but it clearly shows that something is just WRONG underneath and allegedly it's not something that's truly fixable anymore.

    The game structure has pretty much reached the limit of what it can support, and considering all the stuff that CiG is now legally obligated to add to the game on top of the stuff that's already there (which, as any rational person can tell, is already pushing the engine and the network to the limits and beyond) like the other big ships and tanks and land and persistence and content and more planets/stars/moons/cities/stations, that's not a good thing.

    Although you shouldn't really need a programmer looking into the network routing traffic to tell you that.  If you just actually think about it, you can consider how the game runs now and how buggy it is, and then begin to imagine how bad it'll get once they start adding in actual STUFF to the game (like land, tanks, content, etc) beyond simple fetch quests.  Sure, you can say "It's only alpha now!  Give them time!", but time for WHAT?  Bug fixing and optimizing what they have now?  Adding the stuff that was promised?  You think it's so easy for CiG to do BOTH of those without the server exploding?  Just how far detached from reality is THAT?  If the game is like this BEFORE adding land, tanks, more ships, more systems, more players, more content, and more EVERYTHING, how much time do you think they'll need before they can add all of that AND get it running at a decent frame rate? (although the servers will probably explode first).  But again, the worse part is that time won't help.  It's not time that's causing the game to be a framerate-blotched mess right now.  It's the very infrastructure of it.

    That's kinda what I meant when I said that at best, you can call this a tech demo.  Because thanks to having a faulty foundation in the first place, unless CiG tears it all down and rebuilds it with something able to support more than what you're looking at, it's not going to advance much more beyond this, unlike how an alpha is supposed to be able to advance into a beta.

    Really, compare it to the Alphas for other crowdfunded games we've seen like Ashes, etc.  Those alphas might not have as much content but they actually RUN SMOOTHLY, and do you know why?  BECAUSE MAKING SURE THE GAME CAN RUN SMOOTHLY IS SUPPOSED TO COME BEFORE ALPHA.  Once you start slapping together the "alpha" like CiG did, your ability to program the foundation of the game to make sure it runs smoothly becomes a LOT more restricted and downright impossible in parts.
    If you want to create a disproof of concept release SC pre-Alpha (or whatever its called) 3.0.

    Have this overview on how it runs on high end machines here:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7n0wgl/hdd_vs_ssd_vs_raid0_vs_optane/

    I am just wondering when it'll break the camels back ... what if the framerates don't improof until lets say anniversary sale 2018 ...
    MaxBacon

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    Orinori said:
    klash2def said:


    Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege its called Business.

    incorrect, try again. learn the meaning of words and the law. even to be offered an item to own is a privilege and can be revoked before accepted (never even mind the service which is even more obvious). but like i said, i am done with this, its crazy, you wrote an entire essay without having any clue as to what you are talking about.
    I see where you are coming from ... like "you have the privilege to buy a Javelin if you purchase a completionist package".
    But at least in Europe, when you paid for a service that is openly advertised without regualtions you are entitled to it. The seller may not revoke the offer to a single person without any reasons. Where the reason has to be situational bound to the purchase of the product (I don't like your nose is not one of them).

    See the Javelin is bound to the all-in pack for everyone so that's fine.
    If you visit a club you can demand entry as long as you don't start a fight (which can get you thrown out for this evening but not for lifetime)
    If you want to visit a club with regulations (only black shoes) the club can deny entry because you wear white shoes.

    But all this is business and an attempt to create artificial exclusiveness and does not negate any of the stuff @klash2def mentioned.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited January 2018
    I am just wondering when it'll break the camels back ... what if the framerates don't improof until lets say anniversary sale 2018 ...
    Let's wait and see when 3.1 comes as said a major patch dedicated to performance and bug-fixes does (then other performance major stuff as streaming beyond 3.1).

    Then we'll see if this "apocalypse" you paint is something more than hyperbole and these network engineers don't know their job... or if they are indeed simply slowly getting there with long-term refactors of netcode (as they claim).
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited January 2018

    But all this is business and an attempt to create artificial exclusiveness and does not negate any of the stuff @klash2def mentioned.
    "Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege its called Business." -klash guy

    I skimmed the rest of your post. this seemed to be your closer (your quote at top)......wrong.
    There is no artificial exclusiveness, he literally says "Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege"  as a direct response to my post saying IT IS.

    "The seller may not revoke the offer to a single person without any reasons."

    Wrong, this is a condition and would only apply as a condition after acceptance, it may be revoked any time prior, what you mean to talk about here is a promise, not an offer. You can also revoke a service (that was offered to you as a privilege) at any time you wish, it is not some natural or divine right! Potential compensations and claims are a separate matter.

    Are we all done with this nonsense yet? or Am i just giving out free lessons on the meaning of the word privilege in all its various contexts all night?
    Post edited by Orinori on
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    Orinori said:

    But all this is business and an attempt to create artificial exclusiveness and does not negate any of the stuff @klash2def mentioned.
    "Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege its called Business."

    I skimmed the rest of your post. this seemed to be your closer......wrong.
    Reading helps, but thanks for the info that I do not need to take into account, read or reply to any of your posts anymore.
    ScotchUp

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

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